What will break the effectiveness of the GOP "Solid South" strategy?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

[The Magistrate]

1. Three, Four, And Five, In Combination, Sir

[Leopolds Ghost]

3. Most Secularists I know don't believe in economic populism

or helping working class people and the poor.

They are greatly concerned with abortion and gay marriage, however -- two non-issues that make them feel culturally "progressive" even as they (generally speaking, in my area at least) rake in the dough.

The Democrats "lost" the Working Class when they endorsed the politics of Clinton and NAFTA. Dismantling American jobs, dismantling the social safety net in favor of a chimerical future where everyone is a culturally progressive white-collar worker.

I figured this out in the 1980s: A postindustrial economy can only support a certain percentage of non-prodctive class workers.

If everyone is a white collar worker then everyone is expendable.

If everyone is a programmer then everyone is a typist.

If everyone is a secular, hip, ad industry worker then everyone is a low-paid draftsman.

It's really that simple.

[The Magistrate]

10. Your "Cause", Sir

Is roughly thirty years late, and your statement amounts to saying something done on Thursday caused something that happened the previous Monday.

The divorce between the left, and by extension the Democratic Party, and the working class in this country, commenced in the period of protests and counter-culture, and was driven by the dislike of working people for these activities. The great drive of Republican political strategy from that day to present has been capitalizing on this, along various lines, chiefly patriotism, racism, and traditional sexual norms, bound up in religiousity, presenting that party as nearer to the feelings of ordinary people than liberals are.

Economic populism does not trouble me at all: the "freemarketeers" ideology is bankrupt, and is not even good economics. But it is not a silver bullet that will transform the present political alignments, and these have nothing to do with a mythical abandonment of it by the Democratic Party, particularly not at so late a date as the administration of President Clinton.

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. Economic populism is the ONLY reason to be a Democrat.

Secularism is not a political philosophy, as anyone who believes in separation of church and state can attest.

And the New Left was an unmitigated disastrous failure from the perspective of the left in general. It succeeded in popularizing liberalized social mores among the upper middle class, who by and large already had them.

[The Magistrate]

23. That Is Your View, Sir, But Evidently, It Is Not Widely Shared

"Politics is concerned with addition, not subtraction."

[StellaBlue]

16. I am a secularist and a populist.

I think you must be framing your argument thus because you are a theist who feels threatened by the secular tradition of liberalism. :shrug: ??? I don't see what secularism/religiosity has to do with this, or your overall points. I for one am not prepared to throw homosexuals, racial and religious minorities, women, and other groups that scare small-minded Americans, of either the capitalist oligarch OR blue-collar working variety, under the bus!

"The Democrats 'lost' the Working Class when they endorsed the politics of Clinton and NAFTA. Dismantling American jobs, dismantling the social safety net in favor of a chimerical future where everyone is a culturally progressive white-collar worker."

I agree completely. I was and remain PISSED about Nafta, the DLC, and the corporate arm of the DNC (e.g., most of the DNC!). I mainly agree that the future in which everyone is a white-collar worker is a chimera. Not only are more and more people being churned out of dumbed-down colleges with dubious claims to the need for a degree, but there are less and less genuine, "professional" level jobs. Almost all the people I know (25-35 years old) with degrees are hourly wage-earners in cubicle hell, with few or no benefits, no job security, and no hope for advancement. Many work more than one job. We are NOT raking in the dough.

I wish more of my peers, who were lied to by high school counselors, misled by confused parents who do not understand the new job market reality, and totally screwed by the racket that is higher education, would wake up and realize that it is to both their individual and our collective benefit to join the labor movement wholeheartedly. People DIED so we could have a five-day, 40-hour work week. And the gains are all now being stripped away by the latest incarnation of our greedy masters.



Edited for spelling.

[Leopolds Ghost]

22. I mostly agree with you. My beef is with affluent "Soccer Mom" dems

Who view social mores as the only thing separating Dems from Repubs. As in "we can manage the New Economy better, but WITHOUT throwing gays under the bus!"

They are quite willing to throw people who disagree with THEM -- especiially working class religious types, whether they are small-minded or merely SEEM small-minded -- under the bus.

Most prejudice stems from feelings of powerlessness and has little to do with religion or lack thereof. It's why there was a voter backlash in 1994 after NAFTA passed. Of course they thought they were voting for Reagan's "Big Lie" about how the Repubs would protect us from Evil Foreign Investors.

[davidinalameda]

24. for some of us, a woman's right to choose and gay civil rights

are important issues

I'm no secularist-I'm a progressive Christian

[LostInAnomie]

2. Immigration of well-educated liberals from blue states...

... seeking job opportunities, and lower cost of living. The South and Southwest's economies are growing in leaps and bounds and the effect of immigration from blue states is already starting to show in states like Virginia, and Colorado. Their presence will change the culture in our direction. It won't be too long before we get over the 51% hump in many congressional districts and it's curtains for the Repukes.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

5. I am such a person.

[Kerrytravelers]

4. People realizing that having money in their wallet is more important than

whether or not strangers get married.

[napi21]

6. I think we are worrying about the wrong thing.

I'm listening toaprogram on cspan right now "The Progressive Democrats of Calif.". John Dean is on the panel as well as Gore Vidal.

Both panelists saideven if the Dems win in both houses in Nov. the neocons will still be around. They NEVER just fade away, but fight back harder. they have a very defined agenda, and simply view the loss in Nov. as a temporary setback. Dean calls the currentregiem the hard core authoritarians. They've worked hard to gain control of the Party and they're not going to ever give up!

Both warned that the Demsnever let up on the fight. It's going to be a constant and harder fight every day, especially for 2008!

This program reairs at 7AM EST on Sunday. Set your VCR. It's well worth the watch!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

7. Why is the thread topic "worrying about the wrong thing"? The "Solid South" has

been a central element in the very successful Republican electoral strategy since the 70's.

Accepting it as a fact of life doesn't seem to have helped.

Running Southerners on the ticket seems to have had some success (JFK/LBJ, LBJ, Clinton, Carter) although it doesn't seem to work just putting one on the ticket if no serious effort is put forth to campaign in the South.

It seems to me an important thing to address. Of course the "Solid (Religious) South" is just a tool for the Republicans to get power, if they could reliably win with some other region or strategy I'm sure they would.

[tinfoil tiaras]

8. I voted the first one

but that, in combination with the democrats winning the midwest, etc.

[skipos]

9. It's not so much about having a southerner on the 08 ticket

it is having a candidate that can sell a progressive agenda to progressives as well as people who don't consider themselves progressives. Someone like Schweitzer of Montana is going to have an easier time of it (imo of course) than someone like Hillary Clinton, even though she is from Arkansas.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. Sen. Clinton is actually "from" the Chicago area I believe.

[napi21]

13. I would love Briaan tobe our candidate! Every timg I hear him speak,

I'm even more convinced that not only woud he make a great candidate, but a great President!

I just heard him on Thrusday I think. Someone asked him how many guns he had. He said "None your business! But not as may as I'd like." When was the last time your heard a Dem say "None of your business?"

i think the reason he was elected in MT.is because he really is able to speak to peopleas another person, not some guy who just wants your vote. I think he would be loved by the American people for the same reason.

The BIG PROBLEM though is, every time he's asked if he would consider running for Prez, he says why would I want to do that? I have the best job in the world already!

[Quixote1818]

12. You just need to court them. Show them they are important to you.

Howard Dean understands this. Think about how a sales rep gets your business. They keep coming back until you know them personally. If you think they care about you and they send you candy and a birthday card and know you by name then you sign with them!

We just need to court them! It's simple!

[StellaBlue]

14. It's the economy, stupid.

My relatives here in Texas (in "Southern" East Texas) are mostly incredibly pissed about the incomptence of this administration. The shitty economy is touching everyone.

So I chose that one, but I have to say the choice about the South secularizing over time is HILARIOUS. Did you mean that ironically???

:rofl:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. No I don't. I'm only a recent arrival, but isn't there a tendency for the young

to move away from Bible thumping? Or are they fundamentalists in the same or even greater proportion as their parents?

[StellaBlue]

18. A few of us are smart enough to escape the fate, but

...most white Southerners grow up, marry young, divorce young, remarry, have several kids, hunt deer, go to an evangelical church, parrot Rovian talking points, distrust Yankees/liberals/foreigners, hate gays/blacks/intellectualism, etc etc ad nauseum.

I am the ONLY person in my entire family, that I know of, who is an atheist and self-avowed liberal. Out of about 100 people I can think of. They grow up and keep poppin' 'em out, never leave their comfort zones, with no curiosity about the outside world.

As someone mentioned above, nonSoutherners relocating for economic reasons will likely help, but not always. I daresay many, many DUers from other regions would NOT consider moving to the South, for the reasons I described above. And I know several Yankee families in my hometown who are the most rabid Southern Baptists freaks in town. Maybe they were trying to overcompensate to fit in. :shrug:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

25. Interesting that you should describe this. My friend/coworker and I have been living here

(suburbs of North Dallas) the last several years and moved here for economic reasons from "Blue" California, although we've both lived in "Blue" D.C. and Boston as well.

Even though he leans Republican (but voted for Clinton, he votes what he considers to be economic self interest, we're in a high income bracket, make of that what you will) and can identify somewhat more with the Republican politics of 80-90 percent of the people in our area than I can, we both agree that the biggest hardship of living here is not the lack of scenery or crappy summer weather, but the extreme provincialism of the people, and that includes the graduate educated people we work with.

I don't know if this is specifically a Texas or North Dallas thing (I know there are Dems in the state, especially in the cities, downtown Dallas the valley area by the border, San Antonio, parts of Houston, a lot of Austin etc.), and I should surely be flamed as a "region baiter" if I made a generalization about the South based on this. But it's sure here where we are.

It's not just that people in this area are happy to get their information only from FOX and Rush etc., but they have no shame in provincialism and incuriousness. Your statement about "comfort zones" is so true. Even the people we know who have a lot of money all do the same things, vacation at the same places etc... We know a lot of people worth millions who have rarely if ever travelled even to a lot of major American cities much less abroad.

[StellaBlue]

26. You describe my people.

I loathe them. They are another species. Adolescents, children even, in a world of adults.

[provis99]

17. ditch the limousine liberals

the real problem is the "cultural liberals", or limousine liberals, who adopt cultural issues like abortion and gay marriage as their priority, while downgrading economic issues or even suppressing them. As long as the apparent face of the Democratic party is these people, the people of the South who used to make up the New Deal coalition will never support us.Why can't we reemphasize the economic issues, and at least drive a wedge between these fat cat corporatist Republicans and their so-called base, who are in fact economically liberal in every poll I've seen? Jeez, remember Clinton's gays in the military fiasco, whiched helped usher in Nazi Newt and the Republican clowns of 1994? I'm not saying drop the cultural issues; far from it, but we need to prioritize economic issues to have any chance in the South.

[StellaBlue]

19. "why can't we reemphasize the economic issues...?"

D. L. C.

Strangehold. Media. $$$. Ridiculous campaign finance laws (or the lack thereof). NAFTA. Most people not questioning the underlying assumptions of rampant free-market capitalism. Etc. Nader was right about this.

[yurbud]

21. you've got it backwards they do put economic issues first but

they take the same positions as GOP. The cultural issues are just window dressing to draw the rubes into the tent, the same way the right uses religious crap to get votes.

Economic issues should be the litmus.

[CorpGovActivist]

27. Lewis & Clark Needed Sacajawea...

... and the DNC needs a guide who understands the lay of the land, and who understands that a focus group poll (created by someone who doesn't understand the South's complexities) that leaves off half the critical elements isn't the way to make inroads.

- Dave

[Clark2008]

28. Considering that the mid-West is far more red than the South,

I'm thinking those who voted for No. 5 haven't looked at a red/blue map lately.

:crazy:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

30. I think that if you consider that the "Midwest" includes MN, MI, WI, IL, which

produce a strong number of Democratic officeholders, and also states like OH where we are poised to make major gains, and possibly in MO, if you compare the Democratic track record in the region, it's been considerably better than in the South, both in Presidential and Congressional races.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States

I don't know if we are talking about different Midwests, or what? :shrug:

[Beelzebud]

29. We need to get back to our populist roots. We need to be the party of the middle class.

[Dob Bole]

31. No easy solution: "Evangelicals" and other factors

For those of you who have never seen the map of the 1976 Presidential election, Carter won every Southern state but one. (Virginia) This is not because he was from the South (so were Gore and Edwards) but because he had solid support from evangelicals. Even when Carter lost in a landslide in 1980, he did better in the South than he did nationally. Clinton did not have the same strength among evangelicals. They didn't trust him, but by slicing off just a few of them, even Clinton carried half of the Southern states.

Both black and white Southern evangelicals were a crucial part of the New Deal Coalition. JFK got a higher percentage of votes in Georgia than any other state beside his own. In Reagan's 1980 landslide, Carter carried Georgia and West Virginia, and came within a few percentage points in all of the other Southern states. So how did the South go from Democratic base to Republican stronghold? Several factors:

1) The New Deal generation died. The Depression hit the South hard, and those people who lived through hard times were supportive over the years of the Democrats' social programs, Johnson's War on Poverty, etc. But most of the people alive in the South during that time simply aren't here anymore.

2) Minority districts. Before the Supreme court ruled that minority districts were legal, Newt Gingrich was the ONLY Republican congressman in Georgia. Once it became legal to segregate black voters into individual districts, candidates in the other districts could run to the right. This also allows Republicans to divide white and black evangelicals, and make Democrats look like the black party.

3) Fundamentalism in the Southern Baptist Convention. The Southern Baptist Convention is big. It's the cultural equivalent of the Greek Orthodox Church. In the late 70s, a coup was orchestrated in which fundamentalists took over the convention and got rid of "liberals" in the churches and their seminaries.

4) Religious Talk Radio. Gospel music lovers who tune into the radio now hear right-wing "news" and talk-shows. The American Family Association, Dobson, etc. now dominate the airwaves of Christian radio.

5) Abortion. Carter, who doesn't believe in abortion, never really had to confront this problem; in 1976, Roe v. Wade was new. But in the early 80s, people like Francis Schaeffer were able to make abortion the number one concern among born-again Christians.

Can Democrats win in the South? Absolutely. But you have to know the culture, navigate rough waters, and fire James Carville whenever you can. We currently have an uphill battle in the South precisely because Republicans were proactive in courting evangelicals. The race between Ford and Corker in Tennessee has been close all year, but if Tennesee Dems had run a famous Christian music star from Nashville, Corker would be no problem.

DB

[benEzra]

32. Part of the problem...and the solution...

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What?