'Til Tuesday .....

[H2O Man]

Yesterday on of my good DU friends e-mailed me, and requested that I comment on an interesting thread on DU:General Discussion. I told my friend that I was hestitant to, in large part because I have found myself being a bit on edge. I have found some posts by people I usually respect on DU to be annoying; I've had to re-write a few of my responses that I know sound grumpy; and I've posted a few things that might have offended people who I do not want to offend. (Of course, some people might not think that's new for me.)

The democratic/progressive grass roots is fighting the Good Fight. And a certain amount of tension comes with that. I find it helpful to take a few minutes, and to read those things that help me put this moment into the proper context, and to take even a short walk outside. At my age, it's important to re-charge the battery every so often. And so I would like to share the following two quotes with you. Both are from Onondaga Chief Oren Lyons. I hope that you like them.

{1} "We must seek out the spiritual people because only that is going to help us survive. We have a great force -- a great brotherhood. This brotherhood involves all living things. And that, of course, includes us all. We are talking about the natural world, the natural force, all the trees, everything that grows, the water. That is part of our force.

"But when you gather spiritual force in one place, you also gather the negative force. We begin to perceive the enemy now, the power and presence of the negative force.

"There is a great battle coming."

{2} "Our principles do not change. Justice is always justice; freedom is always freedom. Great principles are constant. And so what they call the 'old way' is nothing more than principles. And they say you can't go back to the old ways -- which means you can't go back to justice, you can't go back to equality, you can't go back to what is right and what is wrong. Principles are how you exist above and beyond the emotions that you feel; to control and have discipline of one's self. Self-discipline, not people making you behave, but the discipline where you don't need police. That is how our people lived. There were no police. There were no jails. There were basic laws -- you don't lie and steal. Tell the truth. Be strong. Look out for your brother. Look out for the ones just underneath you. Look out for your elders. Use your strength on behalf of the Nation, on behalf of the people. Conduct yourself in a proper manner."

Let's stay strong until Tuesday, and use that strength to win these elections, and change the course that our Nation is on. Thank you.

[orpupilofnature57]

1. If we conducted affairs like the Iroquois Nation we would be in paradise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois Exellent Thank you.

[KittyWampus]

20. Please don't romanticize Native Americans. Appreciate and learn from, yes.

The fact is, Native peoples around the world traditionally belong to a tight clan system. Your welfare was entirely dependant on belonging to that clan. Outcasts would have no access to food or land.

And that clan, in turn, got its right to use the land through the religion of its people and their creation myth.

That is how discipline was enforced. Everyone put their religion and clan first.

If we lived as the Native Americans, most of us wouldn't travel very far and we'd be tied to a set spot of land and family and living by a rigid set of rules and etiquette. Deviance would not be allowed.

And the following quote totally ignores the point I just made:

"Self-discipline, not people making you behave, but the discipline where you don't need police. That is how our people lived. There were no police. There were no jails. There were basic laws..."

I am not disparaging the wisdom of the person who wrote the above statement. But the fact is, every culture has implicit ways of making its members behave.

[H2O Man]

25. I agree in part,

though there are a couple points worth noting: "Native Americans" lived in North, Central, and South America, and for thousands of years. Thus, we can look at cultural phases that go from hunter & gatherer, to agricultural, to the city/states of Meso-America. Forms of government span too large a group to say that any one is representative of Native society.

In terms of Haudenosaunee, or Iroquois society, it is safe to say that while there was a river basin parochialism in terms of where certain clans lived, travel was, on an individual basis, fairly wide-spread. More, respect for the individual is actually a common feauture for many of the northeastern Indian cultures during the post-1492 times. Evidence of this is found in reading the numerous written records left by Euro-Americans. Of perhaps the most interest to me would be the Iroquois influence on the "Founding Fathers." It goes beyond the idea of copying the relationship between individual states to the nation, which is based upon the Five Nations (later Six) of the Iroquois Confederacy. (Franklin's works regarding the Articles of Confederation make that clear.) But the individual's freedoms, including free speech, freedom of religion, etc, are more Indian than European.

There is a great book by Gary Nash, "Red, White, and Black: The peoples of early America" (Prentice Hall; 1974), which includes the following: "...Even hard-bitten, unsentimental colonists often recognized that Indian society, though by no means without its problems and its own disreputable characters, put white society to shame. ...Throughout the colonial period European observers stood in awe of the central Indian traits of hospitality, generosity, bravery, and the spirit of mutual caring. Indians seemed to embody these Christian virtues almost without effort in a corner of the earth where Europeans, attempting to build a society with similar characteristics, were being pulled in the opposite direction by the natural abundance around them -- toward individualism, disputatiousness, aggrandizement of wealth, and the exploitation of other humans. The Pennsylvania Moravian missionary John Heckewelder was one of a long succession of colonists, beginning with Roger Williams in 1643, who invited his white countrymen to compare their own behavior with that of the Indians he knew. For them, he wrote:

"'Whatever liveth on the land, whatsoever groweth out of the earth, and all that is in the rivers and waters flowing through the same, was given jointly to all, and everyone is entitled to his share. From this principle, hospitality flows as from its source. With them it is not a virtue but a strict duty. Hence they are never in search of excuses to avoid giving, but freely supply their neighbor's wants from the stock prepared for their own use. They give and are hospitable to all, without exception, and will always share with other and often with the stranger, even to their last morsel. They would rather lie down themselves on an empty stomach, than have it laid to their charge that they had neglected their duty, by not satisfying the wants of the stranger, the sick or the needy.'

"Heckewelder did not need to belabor the point -- that these Indian virtues came far closer to the precepts of Christianity than most colonists found it comfortable to admit." (pages 317-319)

[Me.]

26. !

*shadow governemnt*

[Hissyspit]

29. Influence from tribal laws and treaties are part of the history of the United States

and the Constitution. English Common Law, as important an influence as it was, was not the only basis. This is often left out of the school history books.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

2. Great post H2O man and completely spot on...

:kick: & recommended

[H2O Man]

32. Thank you.

It's a strange and exciting time.

[Zensea]

3. Nice to be reminded of my roots now and then

Thanks.
I wasn't expecting to be reminded on DU this morning.
I've got a little bit of Iroquois blood (only a little -- about 6 or 7 generations back from around 1776) although I do know the name of this ancestress.
These days the closest I usually get to that stuff is from living near the site of an old settlement here in Inwood, New York City.
I think I will walk over there in the next day or so.

[lostnotforgotten]

18. I Live Three Blocks From Lake Onondaga

The Canadian geese are migrating South as I type.

[druidity33]

34. used to work there...

I was a member of NYRP (New York Restoration Project)/Americorps and spent a lot of time picking up trash at Inwood, HighBridge, and Fort Tryon (my favorite) Parks. Used to love the little quiet glades... some really special places in those little parks. Wear boots though (lotsa needles)...

Have fun...

:)

[peekaloo]

4. Hopefully Tuesday will signal a return to sanity.

It will be an uphill battle afterward but it will be an optimistic one.


I appreciate your posts, H2O Man. :-)

[helderheid]

5. you have no idea how much I needed to read this.

:hug:

[mmonk]

6. Thank you.

[spanone]

7. K & R

[livvy]

8. Wise words.... Thanks.

I especially like the 2nd quote. It pretty much sums up my basic beliefs. I think I'll share it with my 4th graders. It might help them to understand what I have been telling them about my expectations for them this year.


Good advice for this tense period of time here.

[bobbolink]

30. I related to the second one, also. I'm really glad to hear it will be shared

with children!

Maybe one or two will even be influenced by it, and that's a very good thing.

What is your picture?

[livvy]

33. Pictures from Google of Chief Oren Lyons. n/t

[babylonsister]

9. Thank you for the beautiful pictures and the wise words. nt

[AwakeAtLast]

10. Beautiful. Just beautiful.

Why is it that we search so long for meaningful answers in the present, and we find that they are usually found in the past?

Great post! :hi:

[H2O Man]

15. "The past

is never dead. It's not even past."
-- William Faulkner; Intruder in the Dust

[many a good man]

11. What we're fighting for

We two-leggeds need to be constantly reminded. Thanks.

[bigtree]

12. beautiful words

strength and principles

[Annces]

13. Thanks for the morning orange juice, and beautiful pictures

Life is Movement as a wise man said.

[rosesaylavee]

14. You have a very balancing effect here on DU.

And I have to admit when I come upon one of your 'grumpy' posts (e.g. single word responses - yikes!) those always appear to seek to balance discussion on the thread - whether intentioned by you or not!

Many here do not have your communication skills and you certainly set the bar high for thoughtful discourse. Thank you for that and for the wise words above. Many days you are one of the few posters I seek out for sanity when I can't find it elsewhere.

[canichelouis]

16. T.J.

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt. If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."

~ Thomas Jefferson ~

~ From a letter to John Taylor, June 4, 1798, after the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts

[IndyOp]

17. Excellent quote from Jefferson - Thank you for sharing it.

It helps me to be reminded that this nation has faced, and even wallowed in darkness in the past, but that it recovered. I do fear what happens next and it helps me to be reminded.

[bobbolink]

31. Wish the real witches *were* reigning! There would be some sanity.

[blm]

19. It's always a struggle to stay civil in battles with corruption. I join you there.

Peace.

[KittyWampus]

21. Wow! You summed things up really well, BLM.

[stepnw1f]

22. Thank You H2O

I will try my best...

[Gregorian]

23. I understand that. I always have.

I'm in pain right now, and I can't express myself accurately.

Those statements have always been at the heart of my existence. A white boy from a middle class town. I believe my actual physical pain stems from the chronic yearning and disappointment from knowing those statements could be reality.

I can think of nothing more important than the life they describe.

[Me.]

24. I Saw An Evangelical Minister Interviewed

on MSNBC yesterday. It was shocking. Both the interview and my reaction. He began by saying he was sorry for both Haggard and the gay man. They must both be in a lot of pain. It pained the minister that many in the Evangelical community would use this as an opportunity to paint all gays as prostitutes and drug users, which he said, they are not. He went on to say that the gay community was no different that the mainstream one and it saddened him that he knew there were men and women in his church who were gay and suffered in silence because they were afraid to openly be who they are. He decried the politicizing of religion and was saddened by those extremists who had used two issues as wedges (abortion & homosexuality) when there were so many other issues that were so important; poverty, the environment etc.

I found myself thinking that here was an Evangelical and a Progressive who could get along, we could find a middle ground where we could meet, agree and form a better society for all of us. Shocking!

*shadow government*

[Chulanowa]

39. I had to explain to another progressive friend...

That evangelicals aren't "the debbil", Fundamentalists are. They are often one and the same, but there are probably just as many evangelicals who are on our side as there are on theirs. All the title means is that you're out trying to "spread the word", and I know, from personal experience, that there are plenty of evangelicals who walk the walk that they talk :)

[ClayZ]

27. Thanks H2O Man! A gift for you....Pete's Pond

Live Stream video cam to Pete's Pond in Batswana.

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/wildcamafrica/index.html

It has been a nice break for us, from calling with "Call for Change".
Works best in the evening on Left Coast time.

Just go watch a few minutes and see who comes for a drink.

Peace out!

[bleever]

28. Thank you for the wise words about looking out for each other.

If we can share our anxieties, we're better able to share our strengths.

I'm feeling (feistily) optimistic. Here's a piece of a song:

Coming up close
everything sounds like welcome home
Come home
and oh, by the way
don't you know that I could make
a dream that's barely half the way come true
I wanted to say --
but anything I could have said
I felt somehow that you already knew

:thumbsup:

[Raksha]

35. Thank you for helping me center, H2OMan.

Yesterday (or was it the day before?) I was more than just "grumpy." I was very tired, didn't have any sleep at all the previous night and had been awake for at least 36 hours. It was because of a personal crisis, not because of the election.

Anyway, I ended up dumping a lot of free-floating hostility on a person here on DU that I know to be fighting the good fight, a person who absolutely did not deserve it. My note wasn't directed at the person it was addressed to. It was an expression of disgust with the Religious Right, who I intensely dislike at the best of times, but this particular post was even more vitriolic than usual. I knew it would pain him because of his background, but I didn't care. I was exhausted and scared and hurting so I wanted to hurt someone else, and I didn't much care who it was.

So CorpGovActivist, if you're reading this, I am really sorry about that nasty post. You didn't need to deal with my crap with everything else you've got on your plate right now. I had dinner with my son tonight and I gave him a brief rundown on how you came to be a Halliburton whistleblower because of the misdirected e-mails. I truly admire you and it's not the first time I've told your story to someone who isn't a DU regular.

"But when you gather spiritual force in one place, you also gather the negative force. We begin to perceive the enemy now, the power and presence of the negative force."

Jung says something very much like that. I forget the exact words, but he says that when the light becomes brighter, the shadows also become blacker. We seem to be in that phase now.

[Clarkie1]

36. May the river always run wild. nt

[Nicole]

37. K&R

:kick:

[FernBell]

38. k&r

[peekaloo]

40. kick

:kick: