Mary Mapes (Dan Rather Fiasco): BUSH BASICALLY DROPPED OUT OF NAT'L GUARD SERVICE >>

[The Cleaner]

Mary Mapes who was front and center in the CBS Dan Rather hatchet job was interviewed today on KERA's McCuistion (KERA is Dallas' PBS Station). She has written a new book called Truth and Duty.

"I worked for 15 years at CBS. I was told 'don't ever miss a story because you made a choice not to do something...always go all out, all out..'"

Q: Were there things that were not true?
A: No. everything in that story was TRUE. Everything in that story was TRUE. No one really attacked what was in the documents...had confirmations from Killian's boss...what they talked about was the shape of the letters...centering, format of the letters, proportional spacing, they felt...for purely political reasons...that these letters were forged. I knew at the time that it was difficult to get people to pay attention...came straight out of the archives...

Q: They didn't make these documents up at all?
A: "No."

I called in document analysts to look at them...I was told they looked good, they saw nothing out of order with what should be there...I put them in the lineup of other official documents...I got confirmation of the content...I believed and I STILL believe...everything I come up with shows me these are accurate.

Bush basically dropped out...I believe that Ben Barnes and a few other people in high levels of state government were running an "underground railroad" to keep high-class individuals with money and connections from serving in Vietnam. He was off 28 days a month...he showed up, trained well, his father the Congressman came down and wrote letters...IN 1972 HE TOOK OFF, JUST LEFT...

They explained to me he got an honorable discharge, that's great, but where'd he go? I know I don't have the means to walk away from guard service...there were people who were sent to JAIL for walking away from Guard service...

I talked to individuals who Barnes gave a hand to...it was like the worst kept secret in Texas...

[brook]

1. G.W.-The Chief Cut 'n Runner. n/t

[blm]

4. heh or Cut and Runner in Chief.

Deserter-in-Chief.

LIAR-in-Chief.

[elehhhhna]

31. I like "Lazy, Lawbreaking Coward"

[speedoo]

2. K&R... checking out her book. See links.

http://www.truthandduty.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Duty-Press-President-Privilege/dp/031235195X

[ProgressiveEconomist]

10. Favorable Amazon reader reviews ALREADY are being freeped,

even though the official publication date is not until the day after the election.

We need to rate those reviews UP.

[Judi Lynn]

17. Thanks for the reminder to buy it. Just got my own, thank you. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. He was a cut and runner even then

and if he COULD walk away from the WH, people he would

[Jack Rabbit]

20. And we would be eternall grateful if he did

Asa long as he takes the Big Dick with him.

[xchrom]

5. this is one story i do not want to see die.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

6. Why didn't John Kerry use this at his news conferences?

Now THAT could have reversed the media's focus and put os over the top in congress.

[blm]

19. During the campaign Kerry challenged Bush to a debate about their service

records in his response to what the swifts were doing, but most media chose to ignore that challenge, and didn't even REPORT it.

It came during Kerry's Aug 19 speech to the Firefighters Convention.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

26. Thanks--I didn't remember that detail about the '04 campaign. But

why didn't Kerry repeat his two-year-old challenge this past week, or -- even better -- just mention Mapes's book, which is NEW news? Kerry had a perfect spotlight for ju-jitsu on AWOL's new Swiftboating of a genuine war hero.

[blm]

29. he went after ALL those who didn't serve who attack those who did

it's up in the Video Forum.

[karynnj]

40. It wasn't relevent to what was happening

It wasn't the issue and would not have helped - because I think most Bush people KNOW the truth about Kerry's real service and Bush's bad behavior.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

43. '18% of independent voters said it raised... doubts about voting... D"

"Wasn't relevant"? When an AWOL was directly impugning the concern for soldiers of a genuine war hero, not using surrogates as two years ago? A week before a crucial election, every potential bit of ammunition against Dubya is relevant, IMO.

Apparently, voters' memories -- and media news cycles -- are much shorter than two years. Foley/Predatorgate has disappeared from the headlines, and the generic Democratic advantage over Republicans has shrunk to alarming levels, apparently in large part due to Republican exploitation of Kerry's botched punchline.

From http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-11-05-national-poll_x.htm :

"President Bush's last-ditch push for votes and Sen. John Kerry's comments that seemed to denigrate the education level of U.S. forces in Iraq have helped energize GOP voters. A Democratic advantage of 23 percentage points a month ago and 13 points two weeks ago is now down to 7.

A Pew Research Center survey released Sunday also showed that an 11-point edge for Democrats on the congressional ballot two weeks ago had narrowed to 4 points among likely voters. "It's gone from a slam-dunk for Democrats to take the House to a pretty good chance," says Andy Kohut, director of the center. ... The survey of 1,362 likely voters, taken Thursday through Sunday, has a margin of error of 3 points.

The president and the war in Iraq remain at the center of this election: 36% of likely voters saying that are casting a ballot for a candidate to send a message that they oppose Bush; 20% to send a message that they support him.

What's shifted is the determination of Republicans to vote. The Democratic advantage among registered voters was 11 points, but Republican voters were more likely to be judged as sure to go to the polls, making the edge among likely voters smaller. A month ago, the Democratic margin among registered and likely voters was identical. Bush and other Republicans have warned about the perils of electing a Democratic-controlled Congress, and they also accused Kerry of belittling U.S. troops in Iraq with comments he said were a botched joke. In the Pew survey, 84% of voters said they had heard about Kerry's remark, and 18% of independent voters said it raised serious doubts about voting for a Democrat."

[karynnj]

70. The new Gallup numbers show Dems up 20

I have never seen swings like this before.

I will give you that SOMEONE ELSE could bring this up. For Kerry to bring it up, when defending himself from accusations would not play right. Kerry explained what he had intended and he denounced the completely twisted RW distortion. As it is he is getting criticized for speaking too strongly.

You and I both are sure Bush didn't do an exemplary job in the national guard - but the wingnuts believe he did and that ALL the facts are known (they illogically think it's Kerry who doesn't have all his records out, because ... all the ones out show a war hero who was an excellent leader and person.

[BOSSHOG]

7. He deserted his military unit to avoid a drug test - PERIOD!

And for that he is hero to conservatives who don't give a fuck what their kind do. ted haggard can suck eight miles of cock and he will still be revered in conservative circles. cheney can shoot and kill three hunting buddies and limbaugh will brag about dick's compassion. And on and on and on and fucking on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. It will take them GOINIG TO JAIL

adn doing some hard time.

And lets be honost, not at a country club but a place like Sing Sing... though for their own safety they will need 24 hour lockup

[Ezlivin]

32. AWOL, UA, desertion

Let's face it, BossHog, there is a double-standard. A Democrat who served honorably for years and with service medals isn't shit; a Republican who deserted his post pulls off an aircraft carrier landing stunt, struts around with a stuffed codpiece and poses beneath a Mission Accomplished banner and draws no fire.

Republicans automatically discount the military service of any Democrat.

My wife's business partner is a retired Lt. Col. who was a Pilot-Instructor on the C5A. He's quick to jump on the "blame Kerry" bandwagon. He sent me an e-mail talking up the last gaffe he made. I wrote this back to him:

Think about it this way, Josh. You were in the service. You had two men who were supposed to report to you. One did and went beyond the call of duty. Repeatedly. Those who served beside him testified repeatedly as to his bravery under fire. He is awarded several service medals. He completes his term of service.

The other shows up late. He makes excuses. His father has connections and he calls to get his son out of his duties. The son fails his flight physical. The son doesn't report to his next duty station and leaves the service prematurely.

You mean to tell me that as a veteran you would side with latter over the former?

No response yet from this die-hard Republican....

[symbolman]

36. Yep

Like I said downthread, I was in the USAF at the same time as Bush, and that was the period when the military implemented RANDOM drug testing, ESPECIALLY FOR PILOTS.

It was put in place since the draft had ended and everyone in the Ghetto's, drug dealers, etc had joined for the free money and relative safety at that point, and brought drugs INTO the Military like you wouldn't believe..

He ducked a drug Test as required by the Flight Surgeon in order to keep flying, the Pilots were told in ADVANCE of a drug test which pissed of the enlisted swine to no end.

Oh, the stories I could tell :)

[Kolesar]

48. The "test" involved a physician looking for damage in the nasal passages

...As would be expected if the serviceman was snorting cocaine. Or so I read in some article or in Ivins/Dubose's book: Shrub.

Is there more to the drug test than this? I recall when I joined DU in 2002 there was a lot of professing that Shrub ducked a drug test but the details were sparse. Thanks.

I recall in the Navy in 1979 the men would huddle around the exhaust port passing a hash pipe and blowing into the vent. And I recall a lot of jokes about jism.

[No Exit]

53. I think there was probably more to the drug test--such as urinalysis, for

example. It has been known for a very, very long time that what is found in one's urine can indicate a great deal of crucial information. I remember having to give a urine sample--as a CHILD, in the SIXTIES (no, it wasn't a drug test, har har har)--and I know that my father spoke of being able to diagnose certain things through analysis of the urine... and he was in medical school well before you or I were born.

[Kolesar]

57. I know urine tests for "drugs" were used by the 1980s

But I don't know about a decade earlier. I don't know if cocaine shows up in a urine test, either. (thx for the answers)

[BOSSHOG]

63. Cocaine does show up in the

urine tests conducted by the Navy. And the Navy conducted Urinalysis testing in the late 70's and possibly earlier then that.

[MindPilot]

69. Operation Golden Flow

I got out of the Navy in 1973 and they had by that time implemented random drug testing on the ships deployed in Southeast Asia.

[symbolman]

76. Simple Urine test

with someone watching to make sure you don't toss some apple juice in there.. I don't recall them wanting any more than that..

Maybe for Pilots it's more stringent, but a urine test should show plenty.

[exlrrp]

62. Absolutely right, Bosshog!!

I know you read my diary, the Bush Military History Project
Here's a timeline that explains it all http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/16/204731/83

[BOSSHOG]

64. Thanks teammate

Too bad we are not loyal americans and believe every fucking lie these bastards tell. It works so well for their supporters.

[exlrrp]

67. Just read the timeline!!

Who ya gonna believe? Bush.....or your own lying eyes??)
Thanks BH

[exlrrp]

66. SEE THIS DIARY DEBUNKING THE "ALLEGATIONS!!"

I did this diary almost 2 years ago debuning the charges. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/7/114253/7435
EVERY ONE OF THESE ALLEGATIONS I COULD CHECK AGAINST THE RECORD WAS FALSE !!
Not just some, ALL of them!!
And since then Ive developed new information that kicks even more out!!

Some of these are just blatantly stupid, like:
"33. Why no three hole punches evident at the top of the page?"
There are no 3 hole punches on the top of ANY page of Bush's documents!

"34. Mr. Bush would have had automatic physical scheduled for his Birthday - in July! He would not have received correspondence "
A complete and utter lie. Bush had a "windonw" from MAy 1st to August 1st to get his physical done. he wouldn't have ben scheduled at all for one--unless his commander thought he wasn't going to take it--then he would order him to take it.

"37. Acronym should be OER, not ORET."
Another blatant lie!! Killian writes it OETR, which is consuistent wwith other documents.

"50. The manual cited in the first forged document on line 2 of the first point #1 of "AFM 35-13" doesn't exist. That line of text reads: "to conduct annual physical examination (flight) IAW AFM 35-13". "IAW" means "In Accordance With" and "AFM 35-13" would mean Air Force Manual 35-13". There is no such Air Force Manual 35-13."
ANOTHER huge lie!! Read it yourself : http://www.glcq.com/regs/35-13_1971.pdf Not only that but BOTH confirmation orders refer to this regulation (see below)

23. Bush's grade would be abbreviated "1/Lt" not "1st Lt"
Bullshit!! see document below, he's reffered to there and in most places as 1st lt. Also see:http://www.glcq.com/...(72-09-05)187th_request.pdf Bush signs himself "1st Lt"

AMERICA THESE ARE ALL LIES!!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. Great work!

Thanks. And people should NEVER forget that Killian's secretary, Marian Knox Carr, confirmed that everything discussed in the docs was TRUE!

[exlrrp]

75. The CBS Suspension Order represents a Real Order That WAS Written!!

One of the most important pieces of information left out of this story as publicized so far ( and there are lots of them!) is the fact that the CBS Suspension memo http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/gwbush/bushang.html represents Killian's original order that WAS written, sent up the chain of command and confirmed twice!! And is missing from Bush's records!! We have two CONFIRMATION documents but not the document theyre confirming!! To hide that and other things is why they scrambled Bush's documents up when they released them! To hide and evade the truth!! Why is that so hard to believe about the Bush administration?
Why CBS Mapes left that critically important piece of evidence (and other important pieces of evidence)is beyond me!

And its easy to spot: just look at the suspension confirmation Ive posted twice on this post already. "verbal orders from the cmdr on 1 Aug 72 suspending 1st Lt George W Bush...from flying status are confirmed..."

America!! there was a paper copy of this order, its what the two confirmation documents are confirming! Without a paper copy sent up the chain of comand, there would be no confirmations!

WHERE IS THE THE REAL ORDER AND WHAT DOES IT SAY?? why do we have two confirmations and not the document theyre confirming?? The suspension request came from the "company level commander," they COULDN'T have skipped Killian. If he hadn't ordered the suspension there wouldn't have been one.
Killian was required to suspend Bush on the "first day of the month following his birth month..." See: http://www.glcq.com/regs/35-13_1971.pdf It had to be done, "on or before" that day. so that means Hodges confirmation isn't the original order --its a confirmation, dated over a month after the evnt took place. It also says nothing about "verbal orders" which the ARPC document confirmed happened--ergo, someone else besides Hodges gave th verbal orders.

the Bush administration itself admits that it was Killian who did the suspending on "1 Aug 72." The phrase "verbal orders" means that the orders were DELIVERED verbally but they were not all done out of Killian's head and phoned in to HQ twice for confirmation. Killian wrote an order, read it to Bush and sent it up the chain of command. Thats what the confirmation documents prove. WHERE IS THAT ORDER??!!

Do you understand what that means?? It means beyond a shadow of a doubt that BUsh, and his aides, know for sure whether the CBS suspension order is real or not--he got a copy of it!! And if the CBS document proves to be the real one, Bush goes down in flames!! He just watched Rather and mApes twisting slowly in the wind and getting their careers tanked while he enjoyed his 2d victory--at their expense. There's no wiggle room for him at all!! Same with the Physical order too!! Bush HAS to know whether theyre real or not, a concept CBS ran away from, and ignored. Killian gave him a copy of it, talked to him about it and Bush was later ordered to sign the original suspension order ("...OFF WILL COMPLY WITH PARA 2-10..." see regs cited above)but there's no evidence he ever did--meaning he disobeyed ANOTHER direct written order. Killian wrote a written order and sent it up the chain of command and the two confirmation documents prove it. WHERE IS THAT ORDER??!! And why is it missing from Bush's files?

It also means Hodges and Martin know--here's their confirmation of it: http://www.glcq.com/docs /(72-09-05)flight_status_order.pdf Look at their signatures on the confirmation--think Hodges and Martin know if the CBS version is real?

Thats what you come to understand when you unscramble Bush's papers and then you understand why they scrambled them. And you understand that Bush knows both whether this order is real and why its missing from his records. If this order was was good for him and proved his case, you'd have seen it--thats why you don't.

The only people who benefit from having this remain nebulous is the Republican Party. If certainty absolved them, you would be certain now.

Undestand this: the most powerful man in the world who is in complete control of all federal investigative agencies, does not want this investigated and prosecuted, although if the papers are false, they LIBEL Bush and other former TXANG officers. The federal government, whose unit's letterhead is at the top of these and whose commander apparently signed them, never even sent anyone out to interview Burkett under oath to determine where he got these papers or if there were any more (20-40 pages according to Burkett's sworn statement!) George BUsh does not want America to know if theese papers are real, nor do the Republicans, it all ended just fine for them. Almost like they planned it all. Genius, Karl, pure fucking genius!

There''s a whole backstory to this about Albaugh and Gen Danny James cleansing Bush's files and Burkett has a sworn statement saying he looked at a wastebasket full of Bush's documents at Ellington AFB--these charges have never been resolved--or have they? Was getting his benefits restored the payoff for Burkett changing his story? Burkett is in an EXTREMELY difficult legal position--he either gave CBS copies of forged federal documents if the papers are forged or STOLEN federal documents if the papers are real. Regardless of this, no one official was ever sent out to take his testimony under oath--for spreading documents that, if forged, LIBEL George Bush and his former chain of command by falsifying federaal military documents about him and implicating his superiors in a conspiracy to falsify his documents.

They are exactly what Killian would have kept to "Cover His Ass" in case all the falsifications he did for Bush was ever discovered--he could say he was following his superiors wishes. He calls the last document his CYA document and clearly spells out what he was asked (or told) to do, who asked him and what he did. When he says : I will backdate but not rate" he is confessing to a federal crime--falsifying offical documents and thiss was obviouslty written to cconver his ass in case he was called on it. ALL the documents together were CYA for Kilian.

You never heard that from Mapes or CBS, they talk all around this stuff but clearly do not get it.
if the CBS suspension order and physical order are real they should be in George Bush's files as part of his suspension process. If the suspension was "benign" they would be. But it wasn't: according to AFM35-13 para 2-29m, which they all cite, they should have convened a flight review board when Bush didn't take his physical. They did not do this and this was dereliction of duty and fraud on their part. Hodges, Martin and Bush certainly kinow why it was not convened.

The CBS version gains a lot of credibilty by being the ONLY version of this document to exist and Bushco never provided an alternate version. You didn't hear that from MApes or CBS either--I often wonder if they took the biggest dive in history or are just the biggest dumbasses in the world (Both could be true) A first year journalism intern would be expected to do a better job.
they missed all the important points and helped Bush bury the story

check this one out: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/30/politics/main646621.shtml "...The White House did not answer whether Bush disobeyed a direct order to take the exam...." Think the answer to that question would have solved the question of whether the Physical order was real or not?Look at the date: when this was written, CBS had already caved, and they didn't realioze that th answer to this question would have solved their whole problem. All they had to do was get rather out front asking: Were you ordered to take the physical, Mr Preisdent, yes or no?? And just keep him out front asking that untill they got a yes or not answer! Think George Bush and his aides don't know if Bush was ordered to take the physical or not?

How about THIS, America??!! http://www.cjr.org/issues/2005/1/pein-blog.asp "...Some ...(Of the allegations)... were fed by the conservative Media Research Center and by Creative Response Concepts, the same p.r. firm that promoted the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. CRC’s executives bragged to PR Week that they helped legitimize the documents-are-fake story by supplying quotes from document experts as early as the day after the report, September 9. The goal, said president Greg Mueller, was to create a buzz online while at the same time showing journalists “it isn’t just Rush Limbaugh and Matt Drudge who are raising questions.”

Do you get that, America? Do you understand that it was the same people who flacked the Swiftboat lies--Creative Response Concepts, and isn't THAT an appropriate name!!--that put these phony allegations out?? That trhe whole "Fonts prove them wrong" meme is from the same people who cooked up the Swiftboat lies?? And that these events are connected?

We explain all in the Bush Military History Project: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/exlrrp

DEMAND A FEDERAL INVESTIGATION OF THE CBS MEMOS!!! THEY REPRESENT FEDERAL DOCUMENTS, NOT "KILLIAN"S PRIVATE PAPERS!!
America, youve been HAD!!!

[exlrrp]

77. Marion Knox proved this

Knox confirmed that there WAS a written copy of the real suspension order sent up the chain of command but that she didn't think the CBS one was it. THEN WHERE IS THE ORDER THAT WAS SENT UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND??

First of all, this was entirely unsworn "testimony" as was everything else in this story except Burkett's statement--yet the Bush administration jumped on it like gospel. they created the reality here.

Knox only backed up the story but Bushco spun it to agree with what they said, avoiding the whole point: bush knows what his real suspension order looked like, Killian read it to him, discussed it with him and gave him a ciopy of the real one.

Ever wonder why Bush only said (through Bartlett, not directly) "I don't remember seeing them before? Don't you know that "I don't remember seeing them before" is Bushspeak for "I'm not going to answer that question?"

To claim that the CBS order is false and that Bush doesn't know whether its real or not is to claim that Bush doesn't know what his real suspension order said and looked like and that he and his aides don't know whether he was ordered to take the physical or not.

Do you know that everythign about this case has been "resolved" ENTIRELY on the word of conservatibve bloggers and the CBS "independent" Dog and Pony Show?

Better get to know it

[exlrrp]

78. A question of "Framing"

From the very beginning this whole matter has been framed so that the CBS memos were portrayed as "killian's private papers." What a creative response (see above) to papers that actuaally portray official papers. Mapes talks all around this here in her book, ONLY referring to them as "official papers."

Well, what does "official" mean? In this case, America, it means "FEDERAL" The Txang is a FEDERAL unit. They get support and have connections to the state but they are considered to be federal troops--they are covered by the Air Force Manual (AFM) and are run under the UCMJ--the military code of laws. ANG service is considered to be federal service.

Well, what does THAT mean, America?

Here's a quicky civics quiz
Q: Whose duty is it to maintain the integrity of federal documents Whose duty and responsibility is it to verify allegedly forged federal military documents? Who maintains extensive facilities for doing exactly that?

A)Bloggers
B) CBS
C)Mapes
D)Rather
E) the federal government, whose units letterhead is at the top, whose business they purport to be and whose commander's signature is on the bottom and whose military services ALL have extenseive facilities, in conjunction with the FBI, specifically to verify or disprove their documents and whose DUTY and responsiblity it is to maintain the integrity of their documents.

OK, panel its a toughie--lets go to work (Jeaporady music: doo doo dee doo doo deedee daaaa!..."

Times up!! Surprise!!! its --> E!!<-- NO, I am SO not kidding!!! Its the federal governments job to maintain the integrity of its documents, NOT CBS or bloggers! Its why they mantain extensive facilities to do it!!! Else we'd be all out photoshopping our own passports and T-bills right now! think the FBI couldn't solve this pronto??? Think they don't know all about the fonts? think the military investigative services couldn't solve this? if they never even sent any one out to interview Burkett, they sure aren't trying very hard!!

Did Anyone stop to wonder why CBS held an "investigation" (which had NO legal standing a or powers at all) of diocuments that had TXANG lettehead, signed by the commander of a federal TXANG unit---AND THE TXANG NEVER DID??
Better start wondering about it!!!

Reframe this whole question off the fonts and start asking why the federal government never investigated papers that purport to come from a federsal unit--with the commander's signature on it that id forged, libel their commander in chief (and other former TXANG officers) Papers that LIBEL Bush and his superiors if forged--and incriminate them if real. Why wouldn't they investigate these--if theyre forged? It would only benefit Bushco if these were forged--but they won't prove it.

The federal government abdicated its DUTY to solve this to the opinion of conservative bloggers and the CBS "independent" Dog and Pony Show. And nobody noticed it but me.

America--youve been HAD!!

[MADem]

9. Would you have a link to the full interview, or were you transcribing? NT

[kestrel91316]

11. The Deserter-in-Chief? I kinda like that.

[texpatriot2004]

12. Liar! You can't just "drop out" of service nm

[seabeyond]

25. bush did. look at the facts nm

[texpatriot2004]

27. No, he's a deserter or AWOL or some other such thing but

a "drop out" is what people in school do and they can do it without penalty. Most people cannot "drop out" of service...it's not an option.

[seabeyond]

28. i think that is hte point of maple. he was allowed to drop out,,,, and yes

he was technically awol or something,but the military allowed certain people to be a drop out. you and i probably are in agreement and this is probably fruitless, wink

[texpatriot2004]

34. ;-) I am sure that we are. So, he's the fortunate son who gets to

"drop out" wink

[Fuzz]

13. "underground railroad" lol

Interesting choice of words.

[KittyWampus]

14. She's wrong. The secretary confirmed the content but disclaimed the actual document

Rather and Mapes didn't go to the secretary and ask her if she typed the document that was at issue.

Again, the secretary said she typed a document containing the same basica information as the one Rather had, but not that exact one.

The one Rather had contained erroneous lingo belonging to a different branch of the military.

And Mapes does herself no favors in ignoring this... as she should investigate how the information was taken from an original document and placed on the bogus one she was presented with.

[OzarkDem]

15. We still don't know the whole story on this

Mapes could be telling the truth. Its possible the secretary tried to have it both ways - protecting herself by saying the documents weren't real, but telling the truth by saying the content was the same.

There is still a lot of investigating to do on this story, and hopefully it will come to light some day.

[starroute]

21. There's no way those documents were recent forgeries

I pored over them a lot at the time -- my posts are still in the DU archives somewhere.

One tell-tale was that the headings didn't quite line up with the body of the letters. They were tilted and slightly off-center compared to the rest. This was commonplace in the days before computers. If you didn't have printed letterhead, you'd type a heading on a blank sheet of paper and make multiple xerox copies of it to use as stationery. Between the xeroxing and using a different typewriter, the heading wouldn't be perfectly aligned with the rest.

Not only that, but three of the letters dated during the same month or two all had identical headings that were identically misaligned. A fourth, from a year later, didn't match.

Nobody who set out to forge -- or even simply retype -- the letters would have been able to do anything that subtle. Wherever those letters came from -- and it seems plausible that they were considered sensitive enough at the time not to go through regular channels -- they were definitely produced at the time they are dated.

[2Design]

22. exactly n/t

[Bridget Burke]

49. Please, let us know your objections in detail....

With cites.

(I, for one, worked in a law office when Bush was "dropping out." Typing on an IBM Executive, learning how to use that pesky proportional spacing.)

[No Exit]

55. Sorry, but I will believe Mapes over "Buckhead" of Freerepublic.

And of course we always return to the fact that: no one disputes the CONTENT here.

Net conclusion: Dirtbag Shrub was a military deserter.

I believe, in the final analysis, Shrub "loathes" the military FAR MORE than Clinton ever did. He deserted; he abuses those who serve in it by cutting or denying their hard-earned benefits; he appears to not give a damn if they die for NOTHING (their deaths are a "comma"); he ignores the generals and basically treats them like trash; Shrub repeatedly sends out his minions to ridicule and dirty up the reputations of war veterans and war heroes.

[Blackhatjack]

16. The fact * went AWOL is big, What He Did While he was AWOL is Bigger

.... there are still people who KNOW what Bush was doing, but are afraid to tell.

The rumors about Bush's cocaine bust, and the requirement that he do rehab/community service seem to fit right in with his 'volunteerism' at an inner city Houston charity.

Ask yourself, if he was so 'into' helping inner-city minorities that he 'volunteered' to help out that summer, why did he never 'volunteer' to help other minority charity organizations after he left the Houston facility? And why are there no records of his work there, yet there were workers there that were required to keep a written record of his hours worked(just like as is required of other defendants court ordered to do community service)??

None of these missing records or 'holes' in Bush's past are just 'coincidental occurrences.' ANd there were many people involved who helped pull this off.

[Bridget Burke]

50. I wondered why the "ghetto youth" he'd helped back then....

Didn't show up while he was campaigning. Surely, their tales of how Young Bush had helped them would have inspired the voters.

[truedelphi]

18. Apr 2005 - Mapes and Rather received the Peabody Award

Journalism's highest laurel - for their work on ABu Gharib (Mapes being the correspondent who discovered the conditions there.

I used an IBM Mag Card typewriter in 1972. I am mentioning that because it was one of the first machines that offered proportional centering and other formats that the Mapes' critics say did not exist at the time of the George W military service documents.

Exist it did. I know. I used it.

[eppur_se_muova]

30. "Exist it did. I know. I used it." Thanks for pointing that out.

People forget how sophisticated the best typewriters got before they were displaced by word processers.

[truedelphi]

37. Some geek of a guy runs a virtual museum of

Typewriters on the internet - I checked with him about whether that was his
understanding of the Mag Card's capablity - and he said it was as well.

[Virginian]

44. But, would TANG have a MICOM or other

type of word processing machine and would that officer have known how to use it?
If I remember correctly, you had to type it out and then make some adjustments and have it retype your work. These machines were large and were kept separate from the other office machines at school. They used a huge floppy disk. Maybe they were some of the first electronic machines?

IBM did also make some proportional spacing typewriters. I guess they were mechanical. My parents rented one back in 1968 to do a reunion book for my Dad's old war buddies. That machine was used like a regular electric typewriter only the keyboard was larger because of the special keys. It must have had "st", "nd", "rd", and "th" keys because it had a key that would type "f" and "i" together.

We had Selectrics in the public schools in 1965 when I took my first typing class. I don't know when IBM started making them.

[Bridget Burke]

51. IBM Executive typewriters had Proportional Spacing....

They were, indeed, Electronic & were in use back when Bush was finding the Ellington Officers' Club just too boring...

I used the Executive back then. Later, I used the IBM Selectric Composer--it also had PS, but you had to type stuff twice to get Justified Text. I think there was a Mag Card version.

The Composer would NOT have been in common office use. Ever. But I used the Executive in a law office that was far from advanced, technologically. (Five carbons of each document! No xeroxes!)

[kskiska]

71. I used those machines, also

I agree that the IBM Composer would not have been used as a typewriter. It was a typesetting machine and would have been difficult for your average secretary. I worked in the advertising department for a hair products company and I set type to be placed by our paste-up artists, of which I was one.

I also used the Selectric and Mag Card. The Selectric wasn't exactly a proportionally-spaced machine, but utilized type balls of 10 and 12 pitch. All ordinary typewriters back then came in either large type (Pica = 10 pitch) or small type (Elite = 12 pitch). The Selectrics, depending on which type ball was popped in, could utilize either size in various fonts. They were monospaced, though, each letter taking up the same space, rather than proportional, whereby an "l" would take up less space than a "w".

The most likely typewriter with proportional spacing utilized in an office and used to type letters such as those in question would be the IBM Executive.

[TacticalPeek]

23. K&R

:patriot:

[exlrrp]

60. America! Don't focus on the fonts, focus on the words and what they mean!!

Please AMerica!! Stop looking at the fonts and start reading the words!!
Three of these have letterhead of a federral unit, they purport to be official TXANG (federal) business and they are apparently signed by a commander of a federal unit in performance of his duities!!
THAT MAKES THEM FEDERAL DOCUMENTS!!! And that makes any talk of fonts irrelevaant! They represent federal documents even if they were written in crayon!!
THAT MEANS THAT THE FEDRRAL GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIOBLE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE THEM!! NOT CBS!! NOT BLOGGERS!! The Federal government!!
Whats happened here is that Bushco, with the help of the media, dodged their responsiblity to prove or disprove them, which they could do very easily, cravenly abdicating their cuty to consrvative bloggers and the CBS Dong and Pony Show "investigation."
Stop arguing about the fonts and start demanding a federal investigation of allegedly forged federal documents, that, if forged, LIBEL george Bush and his former chain of command

[exlrrp]

61. PLEASE READ THIS TIMELINE!!

This puts it all in focus: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/16/204731/83
Read all about it in the Bush Military History Project!! http://journals.democraticunderground.com/exlrrp

[SpiralHawk]

24. George "Cut and Run" Bush

Hey, he cut and ran on 9/11, too. He has a clearly defined pattern of dereliction of duty.

[Blue_Tires]

33. TTT n/t

[symbolman]

35. I was in the USAF during the time Bush

was in, and worked in the Purchasing dept, we used typewriters for everything, as computers were not available yet, and I saw ORDERS and FINANCE documents, contracts, etc on a daily basis, and I can tell you IN FACT that these characters WERE available on the Military Typewriters and most of the typewriters were the same as they were bought in BULK, by my dept.

So for them to argue this is nothing less than a TOTAL LIE. These print characteristics WERE on Orders, and other documents.

It's a FACT.

[Disturbed]

38. The RWing and their Corp, Media Moguls decided

to sabotage Dan Rather to protect their cozy relationship with the Busholin Regime.

[DemReadingDU]

39. some research about those typewriters

I remember reading these a couple years ago about those typewriters

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/213416/348

[Virginian]

45. So Rather lost his job because some wingnut falsely claimed forgery?

I don't get it.

They can say any lie and it is taken for gospel without any research? Damn librul media.

[symbolman]

46. Excellent!

Exactly what I was saying and viewed by me, and USED first hand..

Thanks!

[UTUSN]

41. Uh (before I read the thread) why is it a "FIASCO"? n/t

[Stephanie]

42. Time to resurrect his original DU name: AWOL

AWOL LIAR COWARD-IN-CHIEF

What a guy.

[FernBell]

47. k&r

[exlrrp]

52. Mapes must read my Diary: the Bush Miltary History Project!!

For starters, this book is a year old, it's not new
Mapes should read my diary the BUsh Military History project, http://journals.democraticunderground.com/exlrrp it makes her whole case for her,including many things she never understood. Mapes missed so much its hard to know where to start. She never saw that the Suspension memo was the paper copy of the verbal order referred to in the ARPC supension confirmation (see )

OF COURSE THERE WAS A PAPER COPY!! Its what the two confrimation documents are confirming!! AND ITS MISSING FROM BUSH"S RECORDS!!! Two confirmation documents are there but not the document they're confirming!!! Thats why they scrambled Bushys recorsd when they released them--to hide what wasn't there and smoke and mirror what IS there! Well Duh!!
She also nevr understood the importance of the most central fact--BUSH KNOWS WHETHER THEYRE REAL OR NOT!! So do his aides!! they have to, because they know whether Bush was ordered to take his physical or not and theyve never denied it, only spun it. they know every detail of Bush's suspension And they only ran and hid, pretending that they didn't know and couldn't find out--is it news to her that BUsh controls EVERY federal investigative agency? And they all just sat and watched her career tank!
America!!! there is a due and official process by which federal documnetss are verified--it does NOT include the opiinion of Bloggers and CBS!! But this whole thing was decided by bloggers and CBS because the federal government abdicated their civic duty to them.
THATS the story Mapes should be pushing. She has a billion dollar "Deprived of due Process" suit against the federal government that will solve it all for her. TAKE IT TO COURT, MARY!! Thats the only way the truth will ever be known!


I often can't believe that Mapes is serious about clearing her name when she doesn't realize the most important part of the CBS/killian Memos
THEY REPRESENT FEDERAL DOCUMENTS!!! Look at them yourself! http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-09-09bushdocs.pdf Three of them have the letterhead of a federal TXANG unit, they purport to be TXANG official documents and they apparently have the signature of a federal commander inperformance of his Duties. WHY DID CBS "INVESTIGATE " THESE PAPERS WHEN THE TXANG NEVER DID??!!WHY DID THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NEVER INVESTIGATE THESE PAPERS??
Because Bushco, with the help from CBS and the rest of the media framed the papers as "private papers of Col Killian) and therefore beyond the scope of the federal government's investigation.
THIS IS A LIE!!! How federal was Terry Schiaavo? They represent federal military documents and the military and the whole federal government hides behind it to evade their responsibility to prove or dieprove these documents--which they could do very easily

here is a timelinie using all the CBS documents in conjunction with Bush's posted papers to show their mesh: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/16/204731/83
PLEASE READ THIS TO UNDERSTAND! It proves everything she says and a lot she doesn't
When Bush refused to take his physical, instead of convening a Flight Review Board and disciplining Bush, his superiors colluded to defraud the government by keep him fraudulently listed as a pilot, and PAID as a pilot, for 18 months after he quit flying and 14 months after he was suspended from flying!! And his paperwork, proves it, its why they scrambled his papers all up when they released them, something else Mapes makes no mention of
read all about it in the BUsh Military History Project--you won't get the truth from Mary Mapes

[exlrrp]

59. THE CBS MEMOS REPRESENT FEDERAL DOCUMENTS!!!

I read Mapes book from cover to cover, took notes on it and hilited most of it when it came out in '05 and her lack of attention to this basic fact tanked her career.
Three of them have the letterhead of a federal TXANG unit, the 111th FIS, they purport to be official TXANG business and they have the apparent signature of a TXANG commander, allegedly in performance of his duties.
It is the duty of the federal government to rreslove this--a duty they cravweenl;y ran away from and abdicated to conservative bloggers and the CBS Dog and Pony Show "investigation"
mapes and Rather could resolve this very easily by filing a Deprivation of Due Processs against the federal government and subpoenaing Bush and all his former chain of command. They all know whether the paers are real or not. There ia a due and legal process by which purportedly federal papers are proven or disproven--Mapes and Rather have beeen deprived of this proccess!!

HEY AMERICA!! How did you like bloggers and CBS "disproveing" these federal papers when it was the federal government's job to do so? You bought it hook line and sinker with the help of the media!
Understand this: CBS held and "investigaation" to try and verify TXANG papers--when the TXANG never did !!
And nobody ever said anything about it but me!!
Read all about it in the Bush MIlitary History Project!! http://journals.democraticunderground.com/exlrrp

[Triana]

54. Molly Ivins wrote about the "underground railroad" as well...

...in her book "Shrub", I believe. This was no secret and there is no reason to believe that WASN'T true - along with the rest of the story.

[frogcycle]

56. just watched some rethug

on cnn this am claiming the election is a dead heat, blah blah blah - he brought up kerry again, using him as a symbol that dems (all of them) don't respect and support the troops - despite the fact that very minor faux pas has been explained and the outcry discredited...


so why don't dems just keep calling bush 'deserter' and keep them on the defensive? why? why? why?
scrwe the purported discreditng of the documents. screw trying to counter their claims. just go full steam ahead!

[Kolesar]

58. And the "retarts" that were drafted for special units that took high casualties

I played the books on tape version of Shrub and that phrase about "Retart Battalions" just stuck in my head. A cruel vision in every respect.

[DemoTex]

65. 1972 - the year mandatory drug testing became part of flight physical.

Coinky-dinky? I think not.

Lt. Bush lost his qualification to fly the F-102 when he failed to take his flight physical in July of 1972 and was suspended from flying the next month, August 1972. This is the most salient point of Bush's short, and oh-so-sweet, service record. As a former military pilot and airline captain, I can only imagine the reasons for not taking a mandatory flight physical, and none of those reasons are pretty.

Why did Lt. Bush, apparently on his own, decide not to submit to a mandatory flight physical and incur a suspension from the flying that he told Tim Russert on Meet the Press (February 8, 2004) he "loved"? There is no record that Lt. Bush ever obtained the medical qualification required by regulations, nor is there any record of Bush ever flying a military sortie after his suspension in mid-1972.

The missed flight physical becomes the crux of Lt. Bush's problems with his guard service. Why would TANG want him back in the unit if he were not qualified to fly? Why would AANG take him, even into a non-flying billet, given that he had, de facto, disobeyed an order to take a flight physical? Submission to the annual flight physical, required of all pilots operating under the auspices and regulations of the air force (as was TANG), was not an option; it was a mandate. In July 1972, by skipping his flight physical, Lt. Bush also failed to comply with new USAF regulations concerning mandatory drug testing. USAF regulations are not bent or broken without serious consequences, for most people. All other issues regarding Lt. George W. Bush's service record in the Air National Guard derive from the missed flight physical. Expect the self-proclaimed "war president," Mr. Bush, to get hammered on this in the months to come. Meanwhile, don't look for any RNC campaign ads on TV with Bush doing his vainglorious strut on the flight deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln. The aircraft carrier publicity stunt is now prime-time fodder for the Democrats. (more .. from 2002)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/02/21_lies.html

Check six, Lt. Bu$h
The truth is coming after you at Mach 2+.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

74. Showing up for duty was "mandatory"

the whole time Bush was there. That's the real issue. Bush was a blow off.

[emald]

68. little boots is still a deserter from the ANG....

there is no other way to view it. I have been saying for the last five years that gwbushit was AWOL the last year of his hitch and since he never went back he is a deserter. A pResident who is a deserter. Man, that is inspiring. What a great man! :puke: :puke: :puke: Bushit should be in prison for his desertion and for a GREAT many other things. That he is not is a shame to our country.

[TwentyFive]

73. Transvestite = Women as Bush = Man

Bush is a fake man. He is no more a man than a transvestite is a woman. He is a 60 year old child. The only thing sadder than bush are the fools that vote for him.

[WI_DEM]

79. Looks like Bush cut and run from the guard back in '72