Gayle Haggard

[ljm2002]

I've been thinking about this Ted Haggard thing, and about the near universal sympathy for his wife Gayle and their children.

And this is what I think.

I do have sympathy for his children. They had no choice about any of this and it must be devastating.

As for his wife Gayle, no free pass. Here is what I would like to say to her:

'Sure he betrayed you as well as his entire flock. But you knew when you married him that you were hooking up with a guy who built his church on running people out of town. ** Although the article cited doesn't say so, I assume that you participated in this travesty. So your elevated status, your lavish lifestyle, was built on the ashes of the people whose lives you destroyed. And now that hubby turns out to be a drug using, lying, self hating homosexual, you think you can play the sympathy card. Well, don't try that shit with me!

You said in your letter to the congregation that "If I were standing before you today, I would not change one iota of what I have been teaching the women of our church."

Right, you've done such a service by teaching young women that they are worth less than their husbands and should subjugate themselves. You say they will no longer be able to think that you don't have problems -- at last, you have a cross to bear! But Gayle, you think your heart is broken now, you think you're being tested now? Just wait until you figure out that the "women of the church" won't be needing to hear any more of your teachings. You and Ted, your time is so over -- that's "former flock" to you, lady. Remember that Bush guy -- well he most definitely does not remember you! Get used to it, the people you used to hang with will be running the other direction when they see you coming. You and Teddy-boy are radioactive! But hey, you enjoyed your ride to the top, you loved your position, you loved having it all: money, status, authority -- now enjoy the slide to the bottom. It's easy to write nice words right now -- let's see how well you hold up in the long run. The payback has just begun. I'm hoping to see a march to your house by some of those loving Christians you and your husband taught so well -- maybe they'll come and pray in front of your house since you do have an evil Homosexual there; and maybe, just maybe they'll force you to put your house on the market and get out of town. Works for me -- as long as y'all don't move anywhere within 500 miles of me, that is.'

=====

** "He strung up a banner: SIEGE THIS CITY FOR ME, signed JESUS. He assigned everyone in the church names from the phone book they were to pray for. He sent teams to pray in front of the homes of supposed witches—in one month, ten out of fifteen of his targets put their houses on the market. His congregation “prayer-walked” nearly every street of the city."

(from the Harper's article at http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html)

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. The more I hear of him, the more I relish his downfall.

[BayCityProgressive]

2. They are pieces of shit

the have ruined the lives of hundreds of people and I hope they both rot in Hell together with their pals Bush and Foley.

[arewenotdemo]

3. Great post! The sympathy for her in that other thread really got

under my skin. You nailed it!

I can't understand why progressives or feminists would cut her any slack. She's complicit!

Again, they (and I'm certain that included the sweet wife) taught their flock of sheeple that man is to woman as GAWWWD is to man.

Sympathy for that??????????????????

[hlthe2b]

4. I know absolutely nothing about her except what little

I can glean from the press. For that reason, I will NOT pass any kind of judgement on her. While I think you have a point and she may well be complicit, for all I know, she could also have been a battered spouse, have psychological problems of her own, or any number of a thousand personal issues that might need to be taken into account. We've certainly seen how some of these fundie "cults" can emotionally abuse women--Andrea Yates comes to mind... :shrug:

[ljm2002]

26. Well...

...it isn't a question of "judging" her. I do not put myself in that position. However, I wanted to share my thoughts as to whether she deserves sympathy. The obvious question is, how much sympathy did she show for those who she and her husband and their congregation ran out of town? My bet is, not much. And their fancy church was based on this type of activity, she knew it and she chose to be an active part of it. That, coupled with the "subjugate yourselves" message to the young women, turns my stomach.

By the way, Andrea Yates was in no position to teach other women -- on the contrary, she was isolated and had no control whatsoever, even to the point where her husband dictated which religious bookstores she could frequent. Whereas Gayle Haggard played her role of the pastor's wife to the hilt -- and continued in her letter to the congregation, prattling on about how she would not change "one iota" of what she had been teaching the women of the congregation.

Enjoy the slide, Gayle. Maybe you'll learn some real Christian values. But I won't hold my breath.

[hlthe2b]

42. possibly... you seem to know or have heard more about her

than I have...:shrug:

I have minimal tolerance for these Xian fundies, to be sure. If she has knowingly been active in using their intolerance against others, then so be it. I certainly would offer her no sympathy if that is the case...

[napi21]

5. How big is this town they live in? I never knew they ran people out of town!

I sure hope we're talking about a very small town here. One that will forever have a black cloud hanging over it!

[hatrack]

8. They're talking about Colorado Springs nt

.

[napi21]

23. Hmmm. Colorado Springs isn't a small town!

How the heck did this nutcase run people out of Colorado Springs? I guess they could have some close knit neighborhoods. I hope the realtors know about this! Friends of mine were supposed to move thereabout 2 years ago, and the job offer fell through. They are good people and they go to church on Sundays, but they sure aren't anything like this nut!

[rockymountaindem]

52. At the time he did this, the town was much, much smaller

The amount of growth in the last 15 years has been staggering. There are many parts of town where I can drive visitors around and say "ten years ago, this weren't nothin', pilgrim", and I'm still a teenager. I remember specifically that when I was a little kid, driving home from the airport at night all the land out east of Powers and south of Platte was vacant. Now it's a huge booming suburb with probably upwards of 40k people living out there. There are currently plans to expand it by over 100k.

[whistle]

6. Hey their father's ass needs to be in drug rehabilitation and mom

...needs to take herself and her children to Narco-AlAnon

[eleny]

7. "High horses have slippery saddles"...

...That's what I say and how they've slid.

I'm with you in those sentiments There's not an ounce of sympathy making an appearance in my heart. If people in his congregation don't mind being led around by the nose by this modern day Elmer Gantry then they deserve every disappointment they feel.

I had no idea that they actually stalked people. It puts the whole congregation on a shit list, afaic.

[madrchsod]

9. true love conquers all.. well maybe not meth and a male hooker

Gayle on working with Ted: "It's very satisfying to a man to have a woman who joins herself to him, who cares about how she comes across so that she is making him look good--and I mean that all in the most positive sense--not faking or hiding anything, just very innocently and very purely loving each other in front of the world."



opps here`s more

http://alumniweb.oru.edu/oru%20alumni/right137.html

[goclark]

13. To her bunch of falsehoods I say

:puke:


I don't feel a thing for her, she talks about "teaching the women of the congregation" a thing or two.


No sorry feelings here.

[Erika]

10. At least her make up is better than Tammy Faye's

She'll stay with him for awhile to get whatever $ and then move on. Pastor Ted needs our sympathy big time. (sarcasm) Can you imagine being counseled through this by the likes of James Dobson?

[madrchsod]

15. she`s a crazy moon bat but

she`s good looking. don`t see any problems with her finding another nut job...

[DeSwiss]

11. Well said...

I said something similar yesterday.....

Gayle Haggard has lent credibility to the lie that homosexuals are condemned by god. She is no innocent here. The passages in the Old Testament portion of the bible, based upon my and many other's review, are no more credible than Jesus' walking on water or turning water into wine. As the basis of Judeo-Christian belief, the bible is fraught with specious text and inconsistencies, and it should be viewed more as a polemic or a series of myths and tales passed down through the ages, albeit with a sprinkling of truth.

Born-againers are constantly railing against gays. In their bible, Leviticus is the ONE and ONLY chapter, it seems. Gays have become an acceptable alternative for directed and overt prejudice that blacks once held. But overt prejudice against blacks is no longer PC. Enter the gays. Yet curiously, they overlook many other biblical passages that condemn other "sinful" behaviors. That is hypocrisy. While Haggard's wife may not have been the originator of his spiel (as far as we now know), she supported his beliefs and echoed them. I do feel compassion for their children who have been indoctrinated into these hateful beliefs, and I wonder how this will affect them. But adults who delude themselves, unquestioningly, into believing that religion is about condemning others -- and become enriched by this practice, earn nothing but my disdain.

"To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of men." - Ella Wheeler Wilcox

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2570946&mesg_id=2576444

[arewenotdemo]

12. so true

[madmusic]

14. So, if he commited murder should she be executed too?

I don't know. This whole punitive-society-finger-pointing thing really sucks.

"But he started it!" isn't cutting it. What do we tell children when they try that?

I don't like their Kool-Aid and refuse drink it.

To each their own.

[ljm2002]

16. I think you're missing the point

I'm not blaming her for his adultery with a gay hooker. That is not her fault. What I am blaming her for is (a) choosing to marry, and stay with a man who was responsible for running others out of town, based on accusations of being "witches"; and (b) teaching that women should subjugate themselves to their husbands, something I personally find disgusting.

So now everyone's going for her "poor l'il me" schtick.

Doesn't wash for me. YMMV -- as you say, to each their own.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[ljm2002]

45. "I'd be embarrassed. Evolve."

This, from someone who begins their post by accusing me of having a condescending, know-it-all attitude.

Anyway, this is not about what Ted did. What he did merely caused them to be thrust into the public limelight, and caused me to read the article in Harper's magazine (thanks to whoever posted it the first time -- I knew it was out there so Googled it, otherwise I'd link to the original DU thread). After reading that article, I thought about it, and about the sympathy people here have expressed, and chose to express an alternate viewpoint.

Look, I get that he betrayed her and she is personally hurt. But dammit, anyone who would associate themselves with a cult that believes they are righteous while driving people out of their homes, gets zero sympathy from this corner.

You of course have a right to your opinion, and to debate what any of us say here. In the future, though, you might try refuting the actual argument that is being made.

If that makes me sound like a "repug guy" to you, so be it.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ljm2002]

50. Too funny!

Have you thought about doing standup comedy?

Thanks for the laugh.

[mondo joe]

17. Where did you get that she's to blame? This is just a question of whether

she is worth pity or not.

[ljm2002]

19. Excuse me? Did you actually read my post?

Did you read the part about where Ted Haggard and his congregation marched to supposed witches' houses and "prayed" in front of their homes -- to the point where 10 of 15 of those targeted put their homes up for sale? In other words, the part where they ran people out of town while building up their oh-so-Christian church?

Sorry, Gayle made her bed and now she gets to lie in it. I pity their kids, but she was an adult when she entered into the relationship, she stayed in it, she enjoyed the lifestyle, the status and the authority. So now she can enjoy the flip side. My post was an attempt to explain why *my* answer to the question, "is she worth pity or not", is a resounding "NO!".

[mondo joe]

20. I think you are responding to the wrong person, or misunderstood.

My comments were not contrary to yours --- I agree with you.

I was responding to the silly Murder post.

[ljm2002]

21. Sorry, I misread your post.

Sorry about that!

[mondo joe]

31. No prob! n/t

[DeSwiss]

25. What do we tell children when they try that???

But she's not a child, is she? If Gayle Haggard had not taken a proactive role, published a book, and spoke publicly in support of these vicious and hateful doctrines -- against people who do not believe as she does, I would totally agree with you. But she hadn't and she still isn't. She drank the Kool-Aid and is urging others to drink, and not all of them are adults either.

Once having accepted this role, she becomes responsible for its outcomes. While many have disagreed with their religious positions and their actions, she chose not to see their POV. She chose not to respect their rights. She chose not to accept the very social environment of allowing everyone the right to believe as one wishes. Now having attained this position, she and her husband sought to impose their world view on others -- religiously and politically.

From her interview promoting her book:

Crosswalk: How much influence does a wife have on her husband's ministry or work?

Haggard: She most definitely has influence and it is up to her whether that influence is positive or negative, whether she helps and encourages him or discourages him and weighs him down like excess baggage. How we see our husbands can have a powerful influence on how they see themselves. If we see them with eyes of love and respect and encourage them with our words, we can inspire them to be their best. That is what Abigail did for David (I Samuel 25). But if we see our husbands as disappointments and failures, as Michal saw David in II Samuel 6, then we might discourage them so much that they lose heart and fail. They might even despise us as a result. Instead, we need to discover how to be our husbands' greatest strength and encouragement, their help, and a resource for godly influence.

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/pastors/1315204.html

I think her own words say it all. She influenced him and the results is what we now see. She accepts responsibility for how her husband see's himself. She reinforced that view and those beliefs. She cannot now be held above the fray, when her husband's actions reflect poorly upon her. You're right, it wasn't her fault. No. But neither is she blameless in all this. From her own words, she influenced him and this is the outcome......

[upi402]

18. no synpathy for the wives of these scumbags here

Saddam's wife, Imelda Marcos, all of them live lives of privelege and many have influence. All without risk.
Effemall is prescribed by Dr UPI402

[Riverman]

22. Excellent Points. I have no sympathy for his wife, she benefited

from his explotation of other people. I hope they end up homeless with their five kids and seek help from true Christians.

[LostinVA]

27. Yup, hope their children suffer because of their parents

Not a very nice attitude.

[DeSwiss]

28. I agree with the emotions....

....but I wouldn't wish homelessness on anyone. (well, maybe the Bushes). But that's all! (Well, the Cheney's too).

;)

[tinfoilinfor2005]

24. Wow. That article is chilling.

He actually sounds like another Warren Jeffs. Odd that the msm hasn't brought up any of these things. Well, maybe not so odd.

[femrap]

29. Why don't all of you unfeeling folks

go make phone calls or do something useful.

And I sure hope none of your partners ever cheat on you...karma is a real f*cking bite in the ass.

Blame Ted Haggard. Why are you so enthralled with blaming his spouse? You need to consider your gender bias....and your seeming need to put down women. Did she have sex with an escort? Where's her hypocrisy?

And the next sexist shoe to drop will be IF we win the House....all of the insecure male dems will be demanding that Pelosi not be the Speaker. I already heard that today while phonebanking.

I'm truly sick of the gender bias...I thought we as Dems were more evolved than the repugs...Women today were saying that they don't feel like working for the Dems if they're going to dismiss Pelosi.

If that happens, I and millions of other women will leave so fast, it'll make your head spin. So feel that.

[mondo joe]

33. She's not being blamed. She's just not being pitied. She's as much a nazi pig

as he is.

Save your tender pity for someone who deserves it.

[progressivebydesign]

35. It's not about the cheating.. it's the FLEECING that she benefitted from.

That's the point. I think they're saying that the cheating issue is something else.. she lived a lavish lifestyle on the backs of the people they courted for money.. while he was doing hateful things, she stood by and supported that.

[femrap]

47. Oh...well then by all means just crucify her....

hell burn her at the stake. Isn't that what ya do with the women folk?

Unbelieveable....I am just in awe of the attack on his wife. I think there are some folks with 'issues.'

[ljm2002]

41. "go make phone calls or do something useful."

Er, like you're doing?

Gender bias??? It is to laugh. This long time feminist woman believes that part of respecting ourselves is taking responsibility for our own choices -- it has to do with being adults. In case you missed it the first time, I'll say it yet again: I do not blame her for her husband's adultery with a gay prostitute, that is not her fault. What *is* her fault is hooking up with him in the first place, then helping him build his anti-Christian church on the ashes of others' hopes and dreams -- people they actually ran out of town (see the article cited in the original post). That, along with her teaching other women to subjugate themselves to their men -- makes me realize, I have not one single ounce of sympathy for her. She made her bed, let her lie in it. Maybe she'll learn something.

As for Pelosi, I certainly will complain if for some reason the Dems balk at making her the Speaker!

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

30. YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG! ! !

He is not a homosexual, he is a prostitute-hiring, drug abusing, law-breaking, cheating, bisexual.

I did not know about the marches through the city. How evil that is.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. Hmm...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2586481

[mondo joe]

34. How do YOU know he's bisexual?

And what difference does it make?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

36. i'm guessing, but 5 kids later, I'd suspect that he goes both ways.

but Methrosexual does sound better.

his sexual preferences bother me not at all. It is his lies, deceit, his attacks on innocents that he disagrees with publically, yet courts privately, and his demands that we must follow his science, morals, and more that pisses me off.

[mondo joe]

38. I guess it mmay have escaped your notice, but closeted gay men married

to women DO have sex and make babies - no matter how gay they are.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

40. i am not suggesting anything else, except this

this man was a collection of lies. He caused great pain and damage to those with who he disagreed. He attacked people because of differences iin beliefs, and he did his best to force his thoughts and ideas on everyone else, no matter how stupid those ideas were.

[chill_wind]

39. Aww poor Gayle. She'll get the the kids, the house(s), the cars,

the paintings and antiques, the time shares, the stock options, and a horny new fundie husband tomorrow half her age whose family will be even ten times more loaded with cash. She'll write the obligatory martyred book about it and will go on Larry King to exorcise herself and to loudly and famously forgive Ted for everything.

I too have zero pity for the snake oil salesmen and predators of either sex in this class, or what they do to each other. The real victims here are the children. ALL the children in this cult of power-tripping zealots.

[DeSwiss]

43. chill_wind, I hear ya....

n/t

[Swamp Rat]

44. poor kids

:(

[ljm2002]

46. Poor kids indeed...

...I think that's something we can all agree on.

[DesertRat]

51. Two of the "kids" are adults, one is a pastor

The couple have five children: Christy (1984), Marcus (1986) who is also a pastor, Jonathan (1989), Alex (1992), and Elliot (1995)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

[chill_wind]

53. Militarizing Jesus. With the help of Gayle's family connections?

Stalking the town with their special Christian brand of hatey-hate wasn't enough. They thought they needed a whole Air Force base.

Props to the excellent recall of enid602

Mon Nov-06-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Air force

Go to: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arthur-schlesinger-jr/what-in-gods-name-is-goi_b_2993.html



From the article: There is the curious episode of the recent attempt by evangelical Christians to take over the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. The Air Force Academy is a government institution on the model of West Point and Annapolis, sustained by taxpayers’ money and accountable to the Department of Defense. Yet for the last four years evangelicals have created a pervasive atmosphere of intolerable religious harassment and discrimination.


The second in command, a born-again general, propagated his faith through speeches and memoranda. Chaplains joined in. There were 55 complaints over four years. A Jewish cadet was told, for example, that the holocaust was punishment for Jews because Jews had killed Jesus. The Academy superintendent asked the Yale Divinity School to investigate the situation, and the Yale team endorsed the complaints. The chief chaplain asked a woman chaplain to denounce the Yale report. She refused, saying she agreed with the report. She was ordered to Okinawa where she can be assigned to Iraq or Afghanistan.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2929661
I then found this interesting website that has a long bio on Haggard and mentions the fact of Gayle's father- an Air Force Colonal, retired in Colorado Springs, with a small church of his own.

He (Haggard) was to start a church, and it would be in Colorado Springs.

The grand experiment

On Jan. 6, 1985, 25 people met in Ted Haggard's cold, unfinished basement in north Colorado Springs. Haggard stacked three 5-gallon buckets on top of each other for a pulpit. Visitors sat on lawn chairs.

Haggard used his father-in-law's church to advertise his first meeting.

from long write-up Oct 16, 2006
http://www.tedhaggard.com/gazette.jsp

Ted Haggard.com "The Offical Site of Pastor Ted Haggard"


"Reality stems from pastor's Vision"

Reprinted from the Colorado Springs Gazette (www.gazette.com)

The article explains that until Haggard got to Colorado Springs, charismatic churches amounted to no influence in those parts.
When you read about the enormity of this mega-church today, you have to marvel at his savvy and ability to network, his meteoric rise to the WH itself. Whether his father-in-law was of any network influence in the church's military access, particularly, is purely speculative curiosity on my part.

[Carni]

54. Obviously just a ruse to meet gay men on Ted's part

Check this out

"He was always on the lookout for spies. At the time, Colorado Springs was a small city split between the Air Force and the New Age, and the latter, Pastor Ted believed, worked for the devil. Pastor Ted soon began upsetting the devil's plans. He staked out gay bars, inviting men to come to his church; his whole congregation pitched itself into invisible battles with demonic forces, sometimes in front of public buildings."

What a disturbed whacko in denial...BTW I don't feel sorry for the wife.

What types of people stalk individuals to the point where they sell their homes?

New agers criminals? Geez this is sickening and if that woman enabled such stupidity then she gets what she should have seen coming IMO

I feel sorry for children who were raised by such nutcases but I hold no sympathy for him or that crazed wife of his.

[ljm2002]

55. That jumped out at me too...

...the bit about staking out gay bars.

Amazing how the (so-called) religious leaders are so often the opposite of what they claim to be.

Note: they claim to be saving souls. Now, what would the opposite of that be? :evilgrin:

[Carni]

58. I know and what is the deal with that?

If I am adverse to certain settings and or groups I typically try to steer clear lol

I can't stand the Haggard types and their flocks...so do I go and seek out big evangelical gatherings to hang out and bitch? HELL NO!

Why is it that these repukes and cons who are opposed to ideas and personalties that cannot be changed, make it their mission to interject themselves into settings that they find objectionable?

Common sense tells me they must secretly be getting their jollies being so close to the action because there is no other logical conclusion!

[earth mom]

56. What Ted & Gayle did on a local level was bad-but what they did on a national level was horrific

They were directly responsible for millions of votes for * & Co! I have absolutely NO pity for them whatsoever. They dug their own graves because of their own greed, selfishness and prejudice. I feel sorry for the kids, but that's it. :grr:

[happydreams]

57. It's her fault anyway. If she

had been a little more dynamic in bed none of this would have happened.

[Raffi Ella]

59. I can't deny I feel bad for her and her flock BUT

That her husband committed the "sin" they themselves help to demonize and that the lies and hypocrisy were exposed?All I can say is God works in mysterious ways...

[tomreedtoon]

60. They will "forgive him." You fool.

Part of the evangelical movement is the belief that, no matter what sins you may have committed, as long as you claim you are Christian you are forgiven them. It wasn't long after Jimmy Swaggert's "Ah have SINNED against yew" confession that tapes of his old revival show were running again regularly on television.

Now me, I was raised Catholic. And one of the few good tenets of my faith is the idea of penance. When you do wrong, you must pay for it before you are forgiven. You must perform restitution of items you have stolen or destroyed.

Swaggart, the Bakkers, George Bush...their faith didn't accept penance. Simply proclaiming your faith, as loudly and publicly as possible, is a Get Out Of Hell Free card to them.

Wait a year or two. Even if the Democrats manage to overcome voter fraud and win, and more evangelical scandals come to light, Haggard will be back in business.