I NEED YOUR HELP... I swear I won't mention Kerry, chimp, or Downing Street again sheesh!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

I am battling two people in a chat forum trying to defend my "liberal" position and am feeling under attack here now. That really sucks. Let me pose another question then that hopefully is more pertinent. Here is the background:

These comments are coming from an argument about the legitamacy of the Iraq war by my opponents excuse the typos -- I am copy/pasting directly from the blog)
luke7 - 05 November 2006 / 20:15:23 PM
Who lied, every single intelligence agency in the world? No matter what, because of the UN violations we were more than justified and about 97% of the men and women involved in the war know and understand going to Iraq was the right thing. I did!

But then the pathetic liberals are only helpng the enemy.

Did anyone watch Obsession on Fox news? Everything said was in the Muslim fanatics own words.........I guess they are lying too!!!!

Wake up, you idiot.

MY RESPONSE
05 November 2006 / 21:42:15 PM
"Pathetic liberals helping the enemy..." I think Faux has rotted your intellect.

I suppose if it was Hilary in office... reinterpreting the constitution and making Americans safe from something as vague as a "war on terror" -- one that can't be won by the way, unless you give all your rights to a totalitarian government -- you would be fine with that?

Bush's rhetoric and divisive speeches have accopmlished just what the terrorists wanted. A religious right that hates everyone not conforming to their view. We now have a propoganda war that continues to polarize A M E R I C A N S!! Stop hating your fellow country men Luke (there are more than 100 million of us "liberals") and open your mind. Do not let Fox ,or any 1 other "news" source, spoon-feed" you.


AND FROM HIS BUDDY Green Beret:
usa-green-beret-vet - 05 November 2006 / 23:10:04 PM
I agree with you Luke about what is going on in Iraq. It does not matter to the likes of Cocomoe about what the real facts only his version of the facts as he and others like him see it. They all think the reason for all the increased terrorism in the world is due to the US support of State of Isreal and US troops in the Arab lands and the stealing the oil that belongs to them. All we have to do is hide our heads in the sand and do whatever it takes to appease them and then we can just get along. That is a bunch of bull. I have been in Iraq and gather and seen the intel first hand. I know the people and what they want and it is not to trade one dicator (Saddam) for a radical Islamic state like Iran. To the radical Islamic group, there are only two groups of people--muslim and non-muslim. They according to their version of Islam, they have to God given right to enslave and or kill the non believer. They will kill the Jews, Christians, Hindi and others that do not convert to Islam. It does not matter how long it takes or how many of them are in their holy war. They will kill the aged, women, children, and babies that are not Muslim. Like it was pointed out, you just have to listen to their own words. Just wake up to the fact this is a war and they are at war against all of the Western world. You might say I have my facts all wrong and that Bush is a liar and he has mislead the world. I do not get my facts from the media but first hand. I can say that one of my jobs in Special Forces was to gather intel and to know and understand the people. When the liberals and like minded are challenged with the facts, they can only go with what they know from certain elements gather from the media. The best way to understand what is and will happen is to ask your parents or grand parents whast happen prior and during WWII with Hilter. They will tell you all the people murdered and enslaved and tortured by the Nazi's. Even the German people bought into his lie and wished they did something to prevent him from gaining power. My grand parents came from German and told us first hand what happen. So just remember that this is a WAR and WE MUST WIN!

CSM, 5th SFG, (RET)

CSM United States 5th Special Forces Group, 75th Rangers RGT, 82nd Airborne Division. (Ret). 1974 to 2004. As a Green Beret, I live by our creed: DE OPPRESSO LIBER!! To Liberate the Oppressed!!

MY RESPONSE:
05 November 2006 / 23:24:23 PM
OK-- Here is proof that Bush is wrong on the war and is derelict in duty even if we were justified to go to war!!!

1999 war games foresaw problems in Iraq .. associated press USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-11-05-iraq...



November 2006 / 23:42:45 PM
And Green - Beret, Bush took a solemn oath when he was sworn in: " I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ;" then Bush said this in defending his push to renew the Patriot Act:

I don't give a goddamn," Bush retorted. "I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way."

"Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said. "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution."

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

And then you have the balls to say, "Even the German people bought into his lie and wished they did something to prevent him from gaining power." We are approaching that point in America where the terms German and his could easily be interchangable with ... I'll let you finish the thought.

Seems to me that you are right about the stench of Fascism. Unfortunately... very, very unfortunately... the stench resides here in America.


More fodder. Green-Beret, please explain to me what this means (coming from the White House),

"a White House strategist has already told Time magazine that the administration plans a "cataclysmic fight to the death" if Democrats in Congress try to exercise their right to issue subpoenas". Fight to the death over due process??? sounds un-American to me.

AND ONE FINAL SHOT FROM LUKE:
luke7 - 05 November 2006 / 23:58:23 PM
You people are so blind and stupid....watch Obsession (the movie) part of it was on Fox News this weekend. In fact, watch Glenn Beck sometime. It shows what the Muslims are saying (in their own words) and they have been at it for quite a long time, but who cares about the truth. The Democrats will come to the rescue once again and have America in a Dream World once again. Wait until the next rude awakening........

My Question: How the F**K do I get through to these people? If you are going to say "dont' bother... then don't bother to respond to me. I have invested time, energy and patience in my responses to these blow-hards. If you have any offerings in the form of responses that use critical thinking... I would be greatly appreciative of any help. Thanks in advance :dem:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

1. Never mind -- I blew a gasket

06 November 2006 / 01:27:43 AM
"Wait until the next rude awakening. "

You utter turd!!!! You are reveling in the hope of another attack so you can say "I told you so". Go crawl back under the rock you came from, you sadistic fu**er!

You are a lost cause... stupid AND mean.

[mdmc]

2. suggestion

give up on these dorks and work with real dems getting out the vote in two days.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

3. 400 or more people on this site all the time.. from around the world

Exposure is the whole idea ;-)

[mdmc]

5. well then what do you want to know?

give it to me and i'll spin it for you...

[pooja]

4. Here's a woman's perspective that worked finally on my Bush

loving husband...

It is wrong to kill innocent people's no matter what. We are one race (human). One mother holding her dying baby feels the same no matter where they were born or what language they speak or what religion they practice.

You must be the change you want to be. If you want peace, you must lead by showing peace. Our country has railroaded other countries for such a long time. There is great animosity towards our country as a whole. We are breading more fear and hatred than its worth.

And because my husband is a Christian... I told him to remember that the wolf wears sheeps clothing often... Don't think for one moment you would stand by and watch your son lying on the street bleeding to death or suffering burns from the bombs or watching your wife being raped and mutilated before your face.

This is war. It is not pretty and its certainly not heroic. You want to make a difference, give someone a home, food, and love. Works better than any gun will ever.

[mdmc]

6. I agree with everything you said

except the heroism part... I think that all of our soldiers are heros, imho.

[pooja]

10. It takes more of a hero to save a life than to take a life.. my honest

opinion.. we have technology and tools that should make living easier.. yet we are still fighting on battle fields like it is necesary... Did we learn anything from the Romans? Did we learn anything about sharing our toys in the sand box...

There is no honor in having to kill rather than be killed. Survival of the biggest gun is not my idea of natural selection.

[mdmc]

11. my use of 'hero' is more in line with j. campbell's teachings

but I hear you loud and clear...

peace!

[greenman3610]

7. Tell your friend this

The "every intelligence service was also wrong" is bullshit.

========
Tonight on 60 Minutes, Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA’s Europe division, revealed that in the fall of 2002, President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and others were told by CIA Director George Tenet that Iraq’s foreign minister — who agreed to act as a spy for the United States — had reported that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction program. Watch it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/23/60-minutes-cia-official-reveals-bush-cheney-rice-were-personally-told-iraq-had-no-wmd-in-fall-2002/


Get it? We had a MOLE IN SIDE SADDAM'S CABINET who told us what is capabilities
were.

===========

That Bush admin gives a rats ass about the islamic threat is
a strange argument to make given that they have placed Atomic
Bomb making instructions, in Arabic, online:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/world/middleeast/03documents.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


=======


for background, follow these threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2671247
The Bush administration made other false charges about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (W.M.D.)--that Iraq had acquired aluminum tubes suitable for centrifuges, that Saddam was in league with al-Qaeda, that he had mobile weapons labs, and so forth. But the Niger claim, unlike other allegations, can't be dismissed as an innocent error or blamed on ambiguous data. "This wasn't an accident," says Milt Bearden, a 30-year C.I.A. veteran who was a station chief in Pakistan, Sudan, Nigeria, and Germany, and the head of the Soviet-East European division. "This wasn't 15 monkeys in a room with typewriters."

In recent months, it has emerged that the forged Niger documents went through the hands of the Italian military intelligence service, SISMI (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Militare), or operatives close to it, and that neoconservative policymakers helped bring them to the attention of the White House. Even after information in the Niger documents was repeatedly rejected by the C.I.A. and the State Department, hawkish neocons managed to circumvent seasoned intelligence analysts and insert the Niger claims into Bush's State of the Union address.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1858836

===
http://www.workingforchange.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=E72755CB-BC6A-85A4-5550E6356E2546C4
How about the CIA's October 2004 report, which CNN noted said:

"Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them...Iraq's WMD program was essentially destroyed in 1991 and Saddam ended Iraq's nuclear program after the 1991 Gulf War."

How about President Bush's own top weapons inspector, David Kay, in 2004? Again, the excerpt from CNN:

"David Kay said Sunday that his group found no evidence Iraq had stockpiled unconventional weapons before the U.S.-led invasion in March...'My summary view, based on what I've seen, is we're very unlikely to find large stockpiles of weapons, he said on National Public Radio's 'Weekend Edition.' 'I don't think they exist.'"


----


http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0804-11.htm

If desperation is ugly, then Washington, D.C. today is downright hideous.
As the 9/11 Commission recently reported, there was “no credible evidence” of a collaborative relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. Similarly, no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq. With U.S. casualties mounting in an election year, the White House is grasping at straws to avoid being held accountable for its dishonesty.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

9. thanks for the info!! much appreciated nt

[Hamlette]

8. tell them: Be honest with yourselves for one minute, its gut check time

If Clinton had invaded Iraq and it had gone this badly would you be supporting this war? (Democrats turned on thier prez, LBJ, during Vietnam so I think the gut check works for us, not them.)

Ask them if they would have any concerns if Hillary had the power to tap their phones, bank records, internet activity, torture people and sent them to Gitmo without so much as a telephone call (disappeared they call it in bananna republics).

Remind them they thought Bill Clinton lied about everything. We feel the same way about Bush. We both might be wrong around the edges but the difference is Bill didn't have to scare us half to death to have a 70% approval rating. There might be a reason 9/11 didn't happen on our watch (they do NOT want to hear that and we don't like to say it, but honestly, when Clinton hear the noise about an attack on New Years 2000 he took action and the plot was foiled.) And the nonsense about there not being an attack for 5 years? Sheesh, it was the first for heavens sake. Clinton went 8 years without anything approaching a 9/11.

Terrorism has existed forever. Today, we feed it when we give it more media attention than it deserves. The numbers are no higher, but each act is better "advertised" due to TV etc. How did the Brits cope with "the troubles"? By invading Ireland? Studies show the vast majority of terrorist acts (some scholars say all terrorist attacks) are perpetrated by people who believe their land is occupied for foreigners. Diplomacy, negotiation, bringing people to the table is how you deal with it. Like Clinton did in Ireland.

Fundamentalism is a dangerous thing in any religion as it allows people to think they have the absolute truth and they can kill in the name of god. The best way to fight it is by police action and example. It is no coincidence that (especially before Bush) most people in the world want to live in America. Its because we have (had?) freedom, education and a class system that allows for the possibility to advance yourself. You don't stop fundamentalism in other religions by advancing it in your own. We should tell Fallwell to STFU when he disses on gays and talks about putting prayer in schools and outlawing abortion or every word in the Bible is true. Its closer to Islamism than the secular society we have (unless Fallwell wins) now.

And if you think Dems are whimps its because you are ignorant of history. FDR begged the GOP for years to fight Hitler and Japan. The GOP wouldn't let him. Truman dropped the bomb to end the war and LBJ did more to fight communism than Reagan telling a dying USSR to "tear down this wall". As if.