Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I just heard on the Ohio Toledo News 13

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:05 AM
Original message
I just heard on the Ohio Toledo News 13
station this morning that Ohio is going to start scanning all of the absentee ballots today because there are so many of them. I am not sure what to think about that. Doesn't that make for opportunity for election fraud? They claim that it will be safe and there will be extra security and no information can be released until after the polls close. I'm just not sure how I feel about that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Governor fought it so it must be a good thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. That's true. He did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. With scanned ballots
my understanding is they can be counted manually to verify the numbers are accurate.
Unlike the touch screen ballots where there is NO paper trail.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. True again. Guess this is a good thing.
It help ensure the numbers are correct when the results are final tomorrow night. I am not sure how many counties are beginning to scan their ballots though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. I just head this morning on our radio (Indiana)
that 25% of the voters have sent in absentee votes. I think this is a response to the mistrust voters have against E-voting machines and yes voting this way creates a paper trail which I think is a good thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spangle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I think so too!
That is a HUGE number of voters. If 25% of the cast votes are by absentee, then unless a canidate was winning by a major landslide, no way to 'call it" without knowing the absentee ballot numbers.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Absentees can be problematic as well.
The old adage, "Alot can happen between the cup and the lip"
meaning, the Absentees have to be mailed, the ballots arrive
at the post office, someone has to pick them up...from there
on lie the variables..

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Copperred Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. The whole world needs to support www.openvoting.org
http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/story.php?story_id=3234

Spectrum - Wednesday, November 1, 2006
Guest Opinion: An urgent need for 'open-source' voting systems


by Arthur Keller

The principle of voting in the United States is that votes are cast in secret but tallied in public.

This principle is incompatible with the current practice of using voting systems whose inner workings are trade secrets owned by the voting-machine vendors. Those same vendors pay for their systems to be tested, and the results of those tests are also trade secrets -- you guessed it -- owned by the vendors.

Something is terribly and urgently wrong with this picture.

The usual claims for secrecy are that it somehow enhances security. The evidence for security through obscurity in software is quite limited. Some argue that the Apache web server, the software that powers 60 percent of the world's Web sites, compares favorably to Microsoft's web server because the Apache source code is publicly available.

Although Microsoft does not publicly release its Web server's source code, Microsoft will make the source codeÝavailable to large customers under license. In contrast, the source code of voting systems is not available for inspection even by counties that purchase these systems and certainly not for inspection by you or me.

We're all familiar with how the excuse of military security is often used to cover up embarrassing information that has little security value. Why wouldn't vendors use trade secrets as an excuse to cover up flaws in their systems or merely shoddy workmanship? In fact, the exposed Diebold e-voting source code has shown embarrassing details.

We do not know what lurks in the programming of the other vendors. Fortunately, ES&S and Sequoia have promised San Francisco and Alameda counties, respectively, that they will cooperate with source code disclosure rules if the state requires it. Unfortunately, the current California secretary of state opposes such disclosure rules.

The Open Voting Consortium (www.openvoting.org) is creating a registry where vendors can publish voting systems technology. This registry will include requirements for what must be disclosed, such as software source code, specifications, documentation and hardware designs. While vendors may retain proprietary rights to the software, vendors must allow testing, experimentation, analyses and publication by anyone.

While anyone will be allowed to inspect the software, of course not everyone has the skills to do so effectively. But individuals or groups will be able to hire the expert of their own choosing and to publish their analyses. Today the only experts allowed are those chosen by the vendors themselves or by election officials, and their analyses are usually kept secret, and when released, are heavily redacted (censored).

This secrecy makes voting systems vulnerable to inaccuracy, or worse, fraud. In turn, voters lose confidence that their votes are counted as cast and cast as they intended.

The Help America Vote Act (HAVA) was enacted in 2002 in the aftermath of the 2000 Presidential election, when it became clear that our current voting systems were inconsistent, unreliable and unfair. However, the post-HAVA federal standards were not created until late 2005, and these standards are voluntary and do not require paper ballots or paper trails, auditing or adequate testing.

No wonder most computer scientists have grave concerns about existing voting systems and processes.

Are the newly purchased systems that we'll use on Nov. 7 also inconsistent, unreliable and unfair? We just don't know.

While some claim that there is a risk in publishing software developed in secret and not designed to be published, continued secrecy is not the solution. Rather, the solution is replacement of secret software too fragile or embarrassing to publish with a more robust, open-source voting system, where anyone can inspect the software.

Just as the security of Apache is enhanced by its publication, the publication of an open-source voting system will help ensure that the system is secure and reliable.

It is a myth that anyone can make changes to open-source software such as Apache. Certainly anyone can download Apache, make changes to it and run the changed version. But changing the official version of Apache can be done only by a small number of people in a carefully controlled process.

Anyone can report a bug in Apache or a suggested improvement. But any suggested improvement will go through levels of analysis and scrutiny before it is adopted. And that scrutiny is far higher than voting-system vendors, testers or inspectors can muster.

In a variety of industries, the government has sponsored research and development work that has produced systems later adopted by industry. Military-funded research leads to the creation of products and services that the military can buy. It is time for the government to fund the creation of an open-source voting system that vendors can adopt to provide more choices to election officials to buy on behalf of the voters.

Open-source voting systems will mean additional choices available not only for the initial procurement of voting systems but also for ongoing maintenance and support, and for auditing and reporting systems.

It is reported that years ago an IBM salesman said to a prospective customer, "Be careful not to get locked into open systems." But now IBM is one of the biggest proponents of open systems.

It is time for our election officials to become proponents of open systems, too -- and for the public to demand them.

Arthur Keller is a founder and board secretary of the Open Voting Consortium and a precinct inspector in Santa Clara County. He can be e-mailed at arthur@openvoting.org.

Find this article at:
http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/story.php?story_id=3234
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
woodsprite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. If they count them now, it'll give
them a "heads up" as to how much "fraud" they need to pull off a win. BUT on the other hand, I imagine that several people will know the totals before they have an opportunity to putz around with the ballots. So if they screw with it then, I'd think there would be more chance for someone to get caught.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. Does Blackwell Have Anything To Do With The Counting This Time?...nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. probably. He's still secretary of state, so I'd say so.
Edited on Mon Nov-06-06 09:25 AM by sickinohio
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. This is just the info needed by a Rove group to adjust their hack ...
.... of an election. Just go back to the Schmidt election, and look at the late surge of ballots in just a few precincts that put her over the top.

If you were going to hack an election, this is just the kind of information you need to see the trend to fine tune the number of votes that need to be 'flipped' to get the result you want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. There should be a federal law to prevent anybody from counting any
ballots until the close of all polls.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. They're not counting them, just scanning them
When the polls close on election night, someone will push a button and the computer will count the votes and produce the result. They have a lot of really strict safeguards in place to keep anyone from tabulating the votes early.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spangle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. That just means
That the ballots will be scanned into the computer. Which equals about the same as some early voting places are using real machines and the votes are scanned right then. But the 'numbers' aren't pulled out until election day. (report)

When the election is over and the votes are ready to be counted, then each machine is to make a report that shows the tally of all the votes, etc. That information is sent to the main computer at the Supervisors of Elections office. That Absentee ballots are all ready there, then machine used is all ready there, and someone has to hand feed all those ballots. In some places those ballots are put into several envelops. The outer one is used to mail it. The next one has all the voter info on it. After it's all verifyied, then the next envelopee is taken out and put in a different box. So the ballot is seprated from the voter info. So the vote is still kept secret. Then on election day, those votes are opened, then scanned intot he computer. When it's time to count the votes, the machine is told to run a report. It spits out a paper with the info, and in some cases it will call up the elections office and give the data to the main computer.

I believe our office allowed the opening of the final envelopee the day before elections. And put the ballots on in a pile. To make scanning faster on election day.

The good news, it's the same with all the other voting machine problems. There is a possiblity of a machine malfunction and the vote count is lost. With the absentee ballots, (paper) those ballots can be ran back through. For the touch screen ballots, those votes are lost. YES this has happened in some early voting situations.

If there are alot of absentee ballots to be scanned, remember, only so many can be scanned in a day. So more machines might be needed. If there isn't money for lots of machines, they are limited to the number of machines they have to do the counting. And that limits how soon they can get their count done. I think in the 2000 election there was a state out west that was still counting their absentee ballot weeks after the election. They had that many.

Use to be that an election can bee 'called' before all the ballots are actually counted. After a good portion of the actual votes were counted, mathmaticly they could figure out a canidate would have over the amount needed to win. However, with so many votes coming in as absentee ballotss... That is a big hunk of votes. Enough to sway an election one way or another. So there is now a big push to figure out how to make sure these absentee ballots are counted and reproted by election night.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. Dem leaders asked for it in Cuy Co
They also made them test the optical scanning machines in advance and found several "problems" with vote tallies. Chairman Dimora is trying to get the bugs out of the system as early as possible. Dems in Ohio have been pushing absentee voting very heavily. IMHO, he doesn't want the vote to get messed up by having to count all the ballots at the last minute.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-06-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
15. Expediency in naming a winner should not be the standard...
.... if it takes time to scan and count ballots after the election is over, so be it.

We cannot risk the possibility of our elections being 'manipulated' just because it might take an extra day to count the votes.

That would mean we think it is more important that our elections be 'fast' than we believe our elections must be 'fair'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 18th 2024, 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC