U.S. Customs wants to decide WITHOUT A COURT ORDER whether U.S. CITIZENS enter or LEAVE the USA

[Cruzan]

The primary purpose of this proposed rule is to prevent passengers that have been identified as high-risk on government watchlists from boarding aircraft bound for or departing from the United States [page i]... Large air carriers will transmit passenger data to CBP [Bureau of Customs and Border Protection] in real time, as individual passengers check in, up to 15 minutes prior to departure of the aircraft (CBP will not accept data transmitted within 15 minutes of departure). The carrier will be able to transmit data as soon as passengers begin checking in for their flight, as early as 2 hours prior to departure and in some instances earlier. CBP will send a “board” or “no board” instruction within minutes of the carrier’s transmission, and carriers will not issue a boarding pass to any passenger who has not been cleared for boarding. The carrier will confirm by electronic receipt a “no board” instruction. The carrier may then provide information to CBP about the questionable passenger to pursue clearance to board. CBP may resume the query and will reply to the carrier as soon as possible with either a confirmation or a correction. When there is not enough time for CBP to do so, however, the carrier will be bound by the “no board” instruction and may not issue a boarding pass for that passenger. The carrier may, at its discretion, delay the flight until CBP can confirm the “no board” instruction or clear the passenger for boarding. [page 12]

Source: http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main
Click on Advanced Search, click on Document Search, enter USCBP-2005-0003-0005 as Document ID, click Submit (may need to scroll down to see the button), click on USCBP-2005-0003-0005, click on the icon next to Views to open the PDF (sorry for all this but a direct link doesn't seem to work).

Commentary here: http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/no_fly_list_new_law_no_fly_for_all_americans.htm

[HockeyMom]

1. Passport Agent Mentioned New Regulations

going into effect the end of January when I submitted my application last Saturday. He didn't say what those regulations were.

[magellan]

10. That may be concerning the new RFID passports

I seem to recall that from January 2007, anyone applying for a new passport will get one with a chip in it.

[MercutioATC]

2. Would you have a problem with airlines checking for outstanding felony warrants?

I wouldn't...

...and it's no different.


I hear what you're saying, and the potential for abuse is there. However, one would imagine that Customs would have criteria for issuing a "no board" instruction. Personally, I'd trust my ability to board an airplane with Customs before the TSA flunkies who work the security checkpoints, which is what I'm forced to do now.

[file83]

8. This is WAY different.

Felony warrants are part of an open public record. It can be checked/confirmed/challenged/cleared up.

The airlines wouldn't be doing the "checking" with this CLEAR/NOT CLEAR program - we are talking about the DHS making these determinations. Your name could be on a list that makes you "questionable" and you would have NO RECOURSE to change it. You'd have NO RECOURSE to finding out why you were on the list. If it were even possible to have your name removed (very unlikely), it could absolutely ruin your vacation/business plans and potentially YOUR JOB. You would effectively not be aloud to leave the country, and if you are in international business, that could end your career.

[MercutioATC]

9. That's already the case with the TSA's "Do Not Fly" list.

just don't see this as anything more sinister than that.

[file83]

11. You're aware that 1000's of innocent people ended up on the "no fly list", aren't you?

I hope you aren't "cool" with the US Gov't telling you that you can't leave the country just because someone put your name on a list that you have no access to.

Your casual attitude towards this attempted violation of a fundamental right as an American citizen reveals you as either completely oblivious to what your rights truly are and how this will take them away, or as having a blind faith in authority.

Both are dangerous. Wake up.

[MercutioATC]

12. Yeah. I work with one of them...we're both air traffic controllers.

He has a Secret security clearance from the FBI.

He's rated to make decisions that keep tens of thousands of airline passengers safe every day.

He's trusted to work Air Force One when it goes through our airspace.


...but the TSA won't let him get on a plane.




I'm not minimizing this, I'm just expressing the opinion that it's no different than what we're already experiencing.

[file83]

17. It's different because by default you can NOT fly unless the DHS approves

your international flight. They can simply be SLOW in responding for some bureaucratic reason and you DON'T FLY. It's similar to the No Fly List, but not the same. To make it worse, the No Fly List still applies - so you could pass the No Fly List, but now there's the added chance you don't fly for some other bullshit reason determined (or not determined - just never answered) by the DHS.

My point is that you are in fact down playing it by stating that it's "no different" to an already existing system.

[upi402]

20. this is really ugly. LAND OF THE FREE my ass

:mad:

[TahitiNut]

13. There's a difference between sending the name (and age) of everyone

... who's traveling to some "big brother" watchdog agency who can then accumulate that data to monitor the travels of innocent people ... and providing a list of those people at large with an open felony arrest warrant.

In the latter case, NOBODY IS ACCUMULATING A DATABASE of people traveling - no can they do so.

That fundamental difference seems pretty clear to me.

[mmonk]

3. Should be interesting to watch when the lawsuits start rolling in.

[Richard D]

4. Especially from the airlines

I can't imagine this is something the airlines would want. They would probably lose a lot of money not only from extra time needed for this, but also from passenger miles and dollars lost.

[file83]

6. The lawsuits from the airlines should be the LEAST of their problems...

...compared to the large fucking crowd of angry citizens with torches and pitch forks coming to "voice" their opinion on this fascist law.

[symbolman]

5. Yeah this IS a problem

hell my wife and I had baggage that tested POSITIVE for NYTROGLYCERINE in LA and we got the good old what I call the "anal print" treatment.

We've never been anywhere NEAR that stuff, or any other explosive chemical, maybe on the fourth of july as many others are, but Nitro?

Our first night in LA we stayed in a shithole, where the carpet was so dirty(but you couldn't tell by looking), that my toddler's Feet TURNED BLACK within minutes..

All I could think of was that there were migrant workers staying in that place over and over and tracking fertilizer in there or something.

They eventually let us go and were surprisingly understanding, BUT NOW I'm worried that we're in some kind of data bank, and that if I leave the country, some asshole could use this bullshit to make me a "man without a country"..

This is HORSESHIT and Unconstitutional, we have the RIGHT to travel.

And Yeah, I'm the perfect person to be seen as a terrorist, a tall Blonde guy with hair down past his shoulders, wearing a DOGMA tshirt.. a little OBVIOUS don't you think? A less obvious choice would be if someone dressed in an Armani suit and played a BUSINESS MAN, THOSE are the guys that scare me,,

I've never been more pissed standing there waiting for my turn with a toddler in my arms, and waiting as the kid struggled. He's actually crapped his pants in security he gets so scared. They could tell I was pissed and kept saying, "I would help you but that guy needs to do it.."

Then I find out the Bomb machine tester will test POSITIVE for HAND LOTION, can you believe that? But they claimed I had trace amounts of Nitroglycerin, and there is NO FUCKING WAY.

When they were done I asked them (after 45 minutes) if I got an honorary BADGE for "passing"..

And I remember the days of lighting up a smoke at the front of the airport and walking all the way to the plane smoking it :)

[Canuckistanian]

7. And what about people who take nitro pills?

Wouldn't they test positive for nitroglycerin?

It's the same chemical, isn't it?

[symbolman]

16. I guess, mine showed up on the outside of one of the bags

and I'm still stymied, same bags we use for each trip we take every three weeks for my son's medical DOC helmet, same routine..

The TSA guys didn't want to deal with it, they KNEW we weren't a problem, and wanted to let us go our way, but I'm damn sure that ended up in some data base somewhere and that's what scares me, esp as a Political Activist.

[Canuckistanian]

19. One of the first orders of business in the new Congress

Should be to ascertain exactly WHO is on these "no-fly" lists and WHY they were included in the first place.

[symbolman]

21. Agreed

and with a chance for rebuttal or some form of legal recourse, some of these bastards should be sued for screwing up people's lives while they exercise their first amendment rights constitutionally.

From what I've seen MANY of the people culled from the skies are being hassled for their non Bush Co views, if they are NOT Terrorists then LET THEM FLY, if they ARE, then Prosecute them.

THis called someone a DETAINEE in order to use semantics to dance around their civil rights is a HUGE crime in and of itself, worth of the SS guard of Hitler.

You can call people a DUCK if you want to, but everyone has rights worldwide, which Bush is trying to strip them of, and this is one more reason why he should be considered a WAR CRIMINAL.

Mark my words, this man will be the most hated man on the planet and have to actually be the first pResident to LEAVE the USA for his own safety and LIVE like a Nazi in Paraguay with a military unit to protect him at OUR COST for HIS SINS.

Bush has proven that HE IS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

[aquart]

22. How about we just burn the lists?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. So many bogeymen, so little freedom.

"Home of the brave, and the land of the free." Bwahahahahahahahahaahha.

[Marie26]

15. How is this different from the no-fly list? nt

[file83]

18. See post #17

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2594835&mesg_id=2599820