Yes on cloture/No on comfirmation is a flip flop. GOP will use this

[John Q. Citizen]

against Senators who attempt this option. Believe it.

Independents, moderates, leftists and rightists don't want to vote for a flip flopper. Yet here on this historic vote, that apparently some of these Senators feel strongly enough about to vote no on comfimation, they are threatening to flip flop and vote a for cloture so the bad guy gets on the court.

Don't let them make this mistake. No one will reward them for flip flopping on this vote, least of all the Repos.

On the other hand, if they vote "present" or abstain from voting on cloture, they won't have to vote on Alito, at least for a while. :)

Some of our Senators have to realize that obstructing fascism (or corporatism if you prefer) is a good thing for winning elections. We don't need big brother selling out our environment to corporate profit, we don't want big brother strip searching little sister, we want access to our courts, we want control over our bodies and lives, we want our civil rights.

Obstruction is patriotic
Obstruction is patriotic
Obstruction is patriotic

[cali]

1. of all the arguments to vote no on cloture

this is the worst. Bellieve me, the repukes will not attack those who vote no on Alito, yes on cloture as flip floppers. They'll attack dems who voted no. They'll call it disgraceful that a 'good' man got so few dem votes, etc.

[PBass]

2. Nothing the Dems do will ever satisfy the GOP base

We wouldn't even be discussing Alito if the religious fundamentalists on the Right Wing hadn't deep-sixed Harriet Miers just a few weeks ago.

Miers wasn't far-right enough for those people... a filibuster is the proper response. We can't sit back and let the far right ram-rod an extremist judge onto the court.

[Leopolds Ghost]

3. That is silly, cali -- it implies Dems should all vote yes on Alito, yes

on cloture.

Is that your message?

What John Q. is saying is that Dems who vote "yes on cloture, no on Alito" are turncoats and scabs who are not going to be trusted by either side.

Believe me Republicans will NOT reward them for crossing the aisle to help the Republicans round up enough votes for cloture. What do you think they will say to their republican friends next time they are in a tight race? "Sure I voted no on Alito, but I had to in order to appease my constituents. But I DIDN'T filibuster!!!"

Nobody will remember a filibuster that didn't happen EXCEPT the Democratic base which must and should punish any double-dealing Dems whose idea of "centrism" is making the Senate Democratic leadership look bad by subverting their aggressive moves at every turn. That is behavior that should be unacceptable in any organization. Look, some of these guys Salazar, etc. may be smart and they may think they are doing the right thing. I have worked with guys -- close friends who thought they were doing the right thing and were willing to bring down the temple around everyone's head simply in order to be able to say "I was right, my coworkers were wrong and I won't let them succeed."

In a party with any real solidarity those actions -- actions to go against the party on an important parliamentary procedure such as a filibuster supported by the vast majority of the caucus -- would be punished by the Senate leadership.

If they want to vote their conscience, VOTE FOR ALITO or the next guy who comes up for a vote. That is the only honorable course of action for ANYONE who believes Alito "deserves an up or down vote".

If he deserves an up or down vote then BY DEFINITION he deserves to be confirmed. Anyone who fails to support Alito PUBLICALLY and OFFICIALLY has no excuse for going against his/her caucus blocking the filibuster.

Or would you suggest "The Senate has too much important work to do,
like passing the Patriot Act and expropriating land in New Orleans"
as an excuse???

The weaker the Dems look, the less they will be able to accomplish in any misguided attempts to appear magnanimous and bipartisan. You can't do that from a position of weakness. It's egotistical of the Centrist Dems to even attempt it.

To think that they'll look MORE magnanimous and bipartisan by going against their caucus on an important procedural motion when they claim to oppose Alito's confirmation is the typical foolishness of a Benedict Arnold, who thought he would be lionized for his change of heart.

Repubs see right thru that, and so do Democratic party loyalists.

[PBass]

4. Great post, great explanation. Thank you! (eom)

[John Q. Citizen]

5. If I were a Repo running against a Dem who voted

YES on cloture and NO on Alito I would certainly go after that.

I would point out the moral ambiguity that is out front and center with that Senator. If Alito were bad enough to vote no on, why did the Senator allow him on the Supreme Court?

Was it a calculated political move intended to make bush look bad while remaining afraid of what the voters would think if the Senator was called an obstructionist?

We need to be proud to obstruct fascism (or corporatism if you prefer) instead of voting a losing political calculus intended to defend and deflect against criticism lobed by the morally bankrupt Repos.

[jsamuel]

6. Yeah, that is exactly what they did with J. Kerry in 2004... Right?...

:eyes:

[boston bean]

11. I will certainly call them on it and I'm part of their base! The dems

that is.

It is exactly flip flopping and not having conviction.

What stick us with the ugly pig you voted no on by not have enough conviction (guts) to stand by your no vote.

It's deplorable.

[dsc]

7. The answer to that is simple

The person simply says I believe that any President has a right to have an up or down vote on his choices for Justice. I found Alito unfit but don't think filibustering Judicial nominees is a proper thing to do.

[John Q. Citizen]

10. So the principle cited is the Republican principle of

"Don't oppose us" as we stack the court to consolodate our power?

What is the sacred principle of "an up or down vote?" Where does that principle come from? The constitution deosn't say squat about an "up or down" vote.

It's the sacred principle employed by politicians to force the opposition not to use the tools available to them. This is a made up belief a false priciple. Any Senator who tries to convice the public with that "up or down" crap is fighting an uphill battle.

What the hell does that mean, anyway? The Senate has rules and proceedures to govern the conduct of the Senate. It takes 67 votes to change the rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Soooooooooo Not Accurate LOL

If someone tried using that as a basis of 'flip flopping' it is that person that could be torn to shreds for the lack of knowledge in the statement, not the person accused.

[John Q. Citizen]

12. Tell that to Kerry.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. President Kerry Would Agree With Me.

They are not comparable and the concept of a repub saying "see? he voted for cloture but against the nominee, he's a flip-flop" is something that would get that repub ridiculed even from his own party.

[John Q. Citizen]

15. Your faith in the Repos is staggering, IMHO. When has a Repo

crackpot opinion been out of bounds? (

They will label split vote Democrats as political calculators and opportunits who want to have it both ways to appeal to all constituencies, instead of having a true and honest moral compass.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Your Interpretation Of My View Is Staggering.

It has nothing to do with faith in repos. It has all to do with the fact that the notion of someone saying that because someone voted for cloture but against confirmation they are a flip flop is an absurd one, that noone , repub or not, would use due to its complete lack of logic. Yes, they used flip flop before in an incredibly damaging way. But they would not use it in this way because there is nothing flip flopped at all when voting for cloture but against the nom, as that is how things are supposed to be done to begin with. I find the whole argument of "hey, if they vote for cloture but against the nominee it is flip flopping" as realllllly overreaching, illogical and just plain far fetched. No repub, faith or no faith, or dem or other, would use the term flip-flop for this reason, especially since one (cloture) has nothing to do with the other (approving of the nominee).

[John Q. Citizen]

17. The rules of the Senate are crystal clear;

Filibuters are part of the rules. It's legal and it's ethical.

These on the fense Senators are humbley invited to abstain, or vote present or to not be present at the vote for cloture.

That's part of the rules, too.

Let's follow the rules and win. A Senator who meets with his constituents during the cloture vote certainly couldn't be accused of supporting a filibuster.

They could say, "I didn't support the filibuster, I was in an important meeting with constituents about the meth amphetimine problem."

Problem solved.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Not Disagreeing with that. Course, that has nothing to do with the flip

flop meme that I considered to be absurd.

As far as them abstaining or voting with us, fuck yeah I support that.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. I was mostly addressing this aspect your post #16

"But they would not use it in this way because there is nothing flip flopped at all when voting for cloture but against the nom, as that is how things are supposed to be done to begin with." -OPERATIONMINDCRIME

I don't believe things are "supposed to be done" anyway other than according to the rules.

These Senators can "not support the filibuster" by being elsewhere, but voting Yes on cloture and No on Alito will be problematic to defend. It allows zero offensive opportunity, unless they plan to lead the "up or down vote" movement, a Republican movement by the way. And it opens them up to the logical question which is, if they are against him because of the reasons they give, why on earth would they allow someone like that onto the high court by voting for cloture?

Because george w (wmd katrina spy on us)bush said he should?, as in President deserves an up or down vote? Sounds confusing, convoluted, and not too convincing.

Other than that, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps we will have the opportunity to see which of us is right, but I hope not.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Which Of Us Is Right? I'll Tell Ya What. Any Repub Uses A Dem's Vote For

cloture but no vote against the nominee as a springboard for calling them a flip-flop, let it be known here and now from this post that I will gladly give you a thousand dollars no questions asked. There ya go.


on edit: just realized I typed the word now as know lol

[John Q. Citizen]

22. whatever.....n/t

[Cocoa]

9. keep the GOP from yelling "flip flop"?

you think there's anything anyone can do from compulsively yelling out that phrase? There's not. The GOP is suffering from a form of Tourette's Syndrome, they will with certainty call everyone in sight a flip flopper, repeatedly and uncontrollably, and it has nothing to do with what anyone does.

[John Q. Citizen]

13. True, but they will have to find another reason than a split vote on

Alito.

It's much more defensible and consistent with deeply held moral vales to argue that you voted against Alito and you voted against cloture because you truly believe Alito to be inconsistent with American values, jurisprudence and history, than to try to argue shades of grey on a split vote.

Anyone who buys into the false "principle" of an "up or down" vote is already drinking the kool-aid anyway. Where was Meir's up or down vote?

[Coexist]

20. From Fairupordownvote for the President's choice on Brown

to "Get Her Out of Here" on Myers is the BIGGEST flip-flop I have EVER seen!