Sure-fire ways the Democrats could squander their victories from last night

[brentspeak]

1) Marginalize Joe Lieberman. Dislike him or loathe him, his support is crucial for sound Democratic legislation to get passed. "Getting even" with him is the second-most counterproductive thing the Democrats could do. Not to mention stupid.

2) Launching impeachment hearings. That would be the most counterproductive thing the Democrats could do. The American people voted against the Republicans and for the Democrats because a) they want to see the Iraq War ended quickly (like, "right now"); and b) they're sick and tired of the political games and bullying the Republicans have conducted, and want pro-active legislation to stop the bleeding of jobs to other countries, create affordable health care for all, etc. The American people did not vote for the Democrats because they wanted more fruitless political drama and circuses, especially in the form of impeachment hearings. And what would be the point of impeaching Bush? So that Dick Cheney could become President? The American people would turn on the Democrats as angrily as they just did the Republicans were the Dems stupid enough to "get even" with Bush.

I read a list of investigations that Dennis Kucinich wants to conduct in the next Congress. The list described probes that are designed to do things like retrieve the billions "missing" (ie. stolen) in Iraq. Those are things that need to be done. But not one of his objectives mentioned "impeachment" or anything like that. I trust Dennis Kucinich' judgement on that matter 100x more than I would anyone from the peanut gallery arguing otherwise.

Agenda, not vendetta -- that should be the Democrats' motto.

[solara]

1. I couldn't agree more n/t

[Stand and Fight]

2. You've got balls.

:popcorn:

[Stand and Fight]

3. Recommended for The Greatest. n/t

[uberblonde]

4. I totally disagree about impeachment hearings.

What was the most important factor in the exit polls? CORRUPTION. So what does a Democratic vote mean to someone concerned about corruption? ACCOUNTABILITY. I think the American people want to see Bush et al held accountable for their crimes.

[Ignacio Upton]

26. Investigations first, then impeachment

The Republicans got slammed in the '98 midterms for impeachment, and if we try a second impeachment in less than a decade without real hard evidence, then voters will make '08 look like '98 reversed.

[tavalon]

29. Hard evidence isn't the problem

Honing in on the most damning stuff when there is so much damning stuff - that's the hard part. This administration makes Nixon's look like a bunch of boy scouts.

[Irreverend IX]

48. What does impeachment get you?

An attempt to impeach will tie the government up for months at the least, and people will probably get annoyed that the Democrats are pouring so much energy into that as opposed to something that actually helps them. Besides, we all know Dubya's nothing but a figurehead. Target the people in his cabinet for investigation, since they're the ones who are actually responsible for all the crap the administration has pulled. If his handlers are tied down, Bush won't be able to do any damage.

[Mythsaje]

5. On number 2...

Except exit polls suggest that "Corruption" was one of the prime motivators for last night's gains. Are you suggesting we ignore this little fact?

I DO, however, think impeachment should wait. We should go after corruption in Congress FIRST. People WILL get behind that all the way. And it might bring out more information that will make impeachment a given.

Which I keep saying. Which only a few people have even bothered responding to.

[Drifter]

13. Exactly ...

This can not be approached with the goal of impeachment, as that will never work.
There needs to be investigations, and if there is merit, then impeachment will come naturally.

Cheers
Drifter

[tavalon]

16. I'll respond

I think you are right on each of your points.

[niallmac]

6. If Joe is going to play ball fine. If not

then margarinize him. It's got a Blue Bonnet on it but it's not
the real thing.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. I agree.

If Joe is about what's best for the American People, and why they voted in the way that they did? Fine. If Joe is simply about Joe? Office in the parking garage.

[long_green]

7. Good post.

This isn't the time to swagger, it's time to lead. Besides, there's always the chance that, in the sort of hearings advocated by Kucinich, grounds for impeachment could just bounce into our glove.

[KitSileya]

9. Hows about they start investigating where the money went?

Hows about the check out the money in Iraq, the intelligence claims, the wire-tapping thing, the k street lobbying thing, the Foley thing, Plamegate, etc while they clean up the everything? You need to know what happened in order to fix things - and if they find impeachable offences they'll do what the Constitution demands?

[brentspeak]

10. Yes, I agree. Those are some of the things Kucinich wants to do.

[brentspeak]

11. Append: But as for your last sentence, even Kucinich doesn't want that

[DemPower]

50. yup...and they will easily find impeachable offenses

Here's a link to Kucinich's list
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2638710

[OneBlueSky]

12. impeachment is one hell of a tough call, imo . . .

on the one hand, these guys have broken a whole library of laws, and justice demands that they be held accountable for their actions . . . just as you or I would if we broke the law . . .

on the other hand, impeachment proceedings would tie up the government -- and the nation -- for months, and drive the wedge between left and right even further in . . . nothing else would get done, at a time when there is S-O-O-O-O much that needs doing . . .

frankly, I don't know where I stand on this one . . . my gut says hang the bastards, but my head says if we do, we'll end up losing as much as they do . . . perhaps more . . .

tough call . . .

[nevergiveup]

14. I agree totally

The first priority should be a minimum wage bill. Impeachment sounds nice but it is not going to help the average guy/gal who is struggling to stay aboveboard.

[tavalon]

15. Well you've lowered impeachment

to nothing more than political posturing, which I can understand given that that is what the Republicans did. However, impeachment is meant as a way to protect the constitution and the democracy it is supposed to represent. There is a laundry list of things that GWB and Cheney have done that were designed to undermine and destroy that document and the democracy it is supposed to represent. Oops, did I repeat myself when I said "and the democracy it is supposed to represent"? Yeah, I guess I did, but then it bears repeating, doesn't it? Doesn't it?!?

This isn't about revenge and I think you need to think on THAT a bit.

[brentspeak]

17. Why don't you take up the matter with Dennis Kucinich?

It's clear that he doesn't want to pursue impeachment.

But if you think you know more than Dennis Kucinich...:eyes:

[tavalon]

23. If it turns out that he has the ear of the leadership

then damn straight I'll take it up with him and with any other Vichy Dems. Dennis is far too idealistic to be of much consequence, honestly. I would be interested in why he thinks we shouldn't. He might have a skewed view, as you seem to, about why pursuing impeachment is not about revenge but about protection of our constitution and democracy. Or he might have more influential and reasonable reasons. I think I'll toodle on over to his website to see for myself.

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. Is it clear that he doesn't want to take up impeachment?

On what basis do you make that claim?

Simply because he has, himself, concentrated on the most pressing priorities for people's survival? People have different specialisms in government, you know, though in this case they may all share the same desire to prioritise the latter, and take up impeachment later.

You seem to have a very simplistic overview of the situation, and it's led you to make claims that are as presumptuous as they are fatuous. Don't worry about impeachment. There are many wise heads among your Democratic leaders who will know if and when to do so, and most DUers are well aware of it.

[rpannier]

18. How about not giving Hastings the House Chairmanship he wants

The guy is an impeached judge.
It gives the impression we're not serious about reform.

[2008]

19. Wrong on point #2. The president is not above the law

He needs to be investigated so he can be either convicted or cleared. Future presidents need to know that human lives are more important than their own agendas.

[gulfcoastliberal]

21. Precisely. Saying the prez is above the law trashes our justice system.

If he appears guilty of an impeachable offense - articles of impeachment must be brought. To not investigate is to abdicate. I'm not saying the fake investigations like "arkansas project" or whitewater, but real investigations into serious, life and death issues Iraq and torture.

[brentspeak]

22. People need to realize ahead of time that impeachment hearings are unlikely

That was part of the reason that Kucinich issued his list of prospective investigation subjects; the subject of "impeachment" was pointedly absent, and for good reason.

[tavalon]

24. Unlikely because our Dems are pretty spineless

but we'll help them find their spines. We always do. How's John Conyers feeling about this idea?

[brentspeak]

28. I don't know what Conyers' opinion on this is, but if you consider Kucinich (!) "spineless"

then an involuntary physical reaction would have me filling up the remainder of my response box with :eyes:

[tavalon]

32. No, I don't actually

I consider him overly idealistic to the point that he doesn't see the big picture very well. He is a laudable human being but a less than stellar politician though this may not be the best example of that. I'm not sure. I'm a little more interested in Conyer's take on it as he has already spent a great deal of time cataloguing the various transgressions of this administration.

Look, you and I disagree vehemently on this point or you could say that me and Kucinich disagree on this point. I don't care which way you choose to characterize it but this post came close to a personal attack but may well have been in response to a perceived attack that I didn't intend.

Peace Brentspeak. We have more than enough enemies "out there". We don't need to be making them in here.

[brentspeak]

34. We'll agree to disagree. In the meantime, have a drink/soda on me:

:beer:

[tavalon]

35. Okay, I'm cool with that :)

[gulfcoastliberal]

20. Wow, so if * is guilty of impeachable offenses, give him the raygun pass, huh?

Yeah, that really worked out so well for the country. Are you happy Reagan wasn't impeached for Iran-Contra? Because we wouldn't have 2 Bushes in the books as president if the dems hadn't followed the kind of reasoning you advocate.

[tavalon]

25. Exactly!

It's time we quit with the Vichy Democrat line of reasoning.

[Individualist]

41. Past time

I'm sick of DLC milquetoast shit. I want kickass justice!!

[Art_from_Ark]

44. Reagan did a lot of impeachable shit

but was never called to task for it. Instead, he's deified as some sort of saint. bu$h has all but publicly confessed to breaking over 750 laws. Impeachment damn well better be an option, if for no other reason than to let the "The Decider" know he no longer has free rein to run roughshod over the Constitution. Otherwise, we're just going to be having to go through this shit yet again a few years down the road with another Republican wannabe dictator.

[Catchawave]

27. I strongly agree....

Time to "unclog the toilet" and show the world the Dems know how to run a country leading up to Campaign 2008...which started today :hi:

[mcking]

30. The biggest problem with impeaching Bush

is that Cheney is VP.

[VeggieTart]

36. True dat. And I don't think we could get a twofer

Look, the Dems start cleaning up the mess the Rethugs have left and try to undo some of the more wretched excesses. After that, they should consider trying to find out what laws were broken, the extent of the chicanery, etc.

I wish they could impeach, but that doesn't mean Bush and/or Cheney will be removed from office. And even if they are, it doesn't mean Pelosi, if she does become President (a highly unlikely scenario), will have a chance in '08.

[greeneyedboy]

33. why would we want to generate ideas of what NOT to do, and how to fail?

[tblue37]

37. The Dem leadership sucked up to Lieberman even after he lost the

primary. They knew that if he won they would have to work with him. He will have a lot of power in this 51/49 senate, because they have to keep him happy so he won't do a Jeffords.

[Shadoobie]

38. Depending on what turns up

Depending on what turns up from the investigations, the republicans will probably be calling for impeachment.

Greg

[earth mom]

39. Where are you getting your talking points from? Faux?

FYI-Conyers wants Impeachment. I'll take him and all of his brave efforts on the part of THE PEOPLE the past several years over anyone in office at this point!

[brentspeak]

42. Where are you getting smear talents from? The Repu...

...aw, never mind. It's not worth it.

[earth mom]

49. Who are YOU to come on here and propagandize?

There have been SEVERAL threads just like this today saying that impeachment isn't an option-end of story. In my book that's trying to brainwash people and I will speak out against it.

Smells like Faux News to me. If it walks like a duck and all. :eyes:

[Hammit]

40. We are too nice.

We need to do both.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

43. #1 priority should be re-establishing the integrity of our elections

including campaign finance reform.

I agree that we should not seek a vendetta; however, I have a very difficult time swallowing the idea that this band of crooks should be able to get away with murder, while Bill Clinton was incongruously impeached.

At the very least, legislation needs to be enacted to ensure that impeachment is NEVER again abused. Perhaps, given the current "president's" situation, now is the perfect time to accomplish this.

[fujiyama]

45. Impeachment should be considered

if it has been determined high crimes have been committed.

I certainly believe there have been, but I would rather they have a very firm case for it. If it is to be done, it should be done properly.

[Tennessee Gal]

46. I agree!

Excellent post!

[readmoreoften]

47. Well for christsake it shouldn't be the FIRST thing we do. The

first thing we need to do is undo all the wrongs that have been done and maintain trust with new democrats. Then we need to investigate his crimes and press charges in a civil and rational manner.

[greeneyedboy]

54. yeah, how about actually dealing with health care, the economy, clean air, survival of the planet...

and at appropriate times, undo the damage done to our democratic system through the GOP's redistricting, arrogant foreign policy, wacko domestic policy, corporate welfare and graft, electoral fraud, unconstitutional spying, signing statements, etc. etc. etc..

remember when we had competent governance? people like that. ask people in the Gulf Coast.

[bigtree]

51. holding this administration accountable was never about some vendetta

it's what we sent them there for

[Generator]

52. WE can despise Lieberman all we want

AND SCREAM impeach! But I don't expect the Dems elected to do that. LIKE DUH, man. They will work with Lieberman and maybe show him where his bread is really buttered for HIS legacy and it's not with Bush and the Republicans. AND they don't need to impeach. Just find a few more smoking scandals, lies and cover ups. One will hit the mark. Then it's Nixon time, baby, he flies off to Crawford. MAKE HIM LEAVE. He's not worthy of impeachment, anyway. That's how it's done. Resignation.

[eridani]

53. Kucinich has specifically disallowed impeachment posts on his site

The investigations he names MUST come first, plus undoing 6 years worth of serious damage. If a public opinion groundswell demands impeachment after we make some headway on all of this, fine.

[LittleClarkie]

55. The job of each individual Democrat who was elected

is whatever the fuck was the issue or issues they ran on. That's why they got elected. I bet not a one got elected saying "I'm going to impeach the motherfucker."

[w4rma]

56. Support Bush's amnesty for illegals. Vote for more technology visas.

Allow China's abuse of the free trade situation to further increase our trade deficit and harm local economies.
Touch gun federal control with a 20' pole.

And yes Lieberman is in. But he should be kept off chairs where he will be soft on Republicans in our investigations. I'm sure we can work something out with him where we can let someone who is going to be tough on Rethugs in investigating the scandals take over certain chairs and allow Lieberman to chair another committee. He owes Rove and Bush too much from his election.

As far as impeachment goes, I've read that a majority of Americans support impeaching Bush. (including Republicans, btw.) I think that rather than starting off on impeachment, we should investigate him and if enough really wild stuff comes up and support for impeachment grows then maybe we can put it back on the table later. Now isn't the time to talk impeachment, it is the time to open up the government and look at how Bush/Cheney have been running it.