Bush MUST be impeached!

[Laelth]

There are too many well-meaning people in too many threads telling Democrats that we need to play nice and that to impeach Bush would mean political suicide for our party. This makes me very uncomfortable. I think these well-meaning "friends" of the Democratic party are flat-out wrong.

Bush MUST be impeached!

Here's why:

We've been telling the American people since 9-11 that Bush and his party were shredding the Constitution. If that's true (and we know it is), then we have to impeach Bush. If we don't, we're either liars (saying he didn't really shred the Constitution) or wimps (too weak to do anything about it). Personally, I'm sick of the "Democrats are wimps" meme.

Political suicide or not, we have to grow a pair and show the American people that we will fight for our values and hold responsible those who would undermine the Constitution. On Nov. 7, the people voted for change. They voted to restore democracy. For the good of the country, and for the good of the party, we have to stand up for the Constitution.

It doesn't have to be right away. By all means, I think we should start at the bottom, proceed with orderly investigations, and get some evidence before we attack the rot at the top of the Republican party, but if we fail to impeach Bush we will have proven to the world that we are, in fact, spineless wimps ... just as the Republicans have said, over and over.

-Laelth


If you agree, please k&r.

[swag]

1. Yeah. "President Cheney" has such a nice ring to it.

[boolean]

3. Impeach him too!

How about President Nancy Pelosi?

[Laelth]

7. President Nancy Pelosi

That has a very nice ring to it.

:applause:

:dem:

-Laelth

[femrap]

18. I like that as well! nt

[tomp]

39. in order to get president pelosi...

...you would have to impeach bush/cheney simultaneously. if you impeach cheney first, bush will immedialtely nominate someone to take his place. there would be intense political pressure to fill the vp spot before going after bush. in other words, president pelosi via impeachment is a pipe dream.

[bullwinkle428]

108. This could actually happen, IF SHE PLAYS HER CARDS RIGHT!!

I would personally love to see it!

[Laelth]

111. I'd love to see it happen.

I hope her political aspirations don't keep her from doing the right thing ...

She must proceed with investigations that lead to impeachment.

-Laelth

[liberaldemocrat7]

136. OK THEN. HOW WILL YOU GET THIS ACCOMPLISHED?

You will need to impeach and convict both Bush and Cheney.

What clout do you have? Tell me how you will pressure congress to try Bush and Cheney.


Go here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2654954&mesg_id=2654954

[Laelth]

167. A Democrat will get elected to the Office of the President ...

... only when we can show the American people that we're trustworthy. Pelosi won't ascend to the Presidency through impeachment, but if we do impeach we might get a Democrat elected in 2008 because we will have shown the American people that we're willing to fight for the Constitution.

How can we expect the American people to trust us to fight against terrorists if we're afraid to fight corrupt, lying, Constitution-shredding Republicans?

-Laelth

[mom cat]

160. Bush/Cheney must be stopped from starting WW III!

[Bruichladdich]

170. Yes, I agree totally!

Its hard to believe that the fuss about Clinton and his cigar was a better reason for impeachment than Bushco provoking WW III.

Throw him out of office and right away into gitmo. As an enemy combatant of course. No trial :smoke:

[mom cat]

171. Gitmo would do nicely, unless we get it closed down. Then a max

Fed pen in an isolation cell with no possibility of parole and no communication with the outside might just do it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. What would be different? And impeach him, too.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. Actually I Think It Does Have A Nice Ring To It

Can you imagine any more toothless a politician than a VP who just took over for an impeached president? He would be a paper tiger. Title and no power. That seems appropriate punishment for a guy who was about nothing except the acquisition of power.
The Professor

[ArbustoBuster]

78. Even a weak president can be influential in the long term.

Gerald Ford was fairly weak, yet he was an immense boost to the careers of Cheney (Ford's Chief of Staff), Rumsfeld (Ford's Secretary of Defense - the Republicans never learn!) and the elder Bush (ambassador to China and head of the CIA). He also appointed John Paul Stevens to the Supreme Court.

That said, I do think that Cheney would be a less effective president than Bush, because Cheney has a lower popularity rating than a churning bowl of ebola virus.

[Laelth]

80. LOL

"Cheney has a lower popularity rating than a churning bowl of ebola virus."

:rofl:

Too true!

:dem:

-Laelth

[Lochloosa]

147. That is a Bullshit Argument.

N/T necessary

[baby_mouse]

169. Actually it's a very GOOD argument.

Also, if the Supreme Justice is for some reason unable to preside over the impeachment, CHENEY has to.

[midnight]

148. I thought he was being investigated right now for Halliburton,

and possible indictments mean he will not be staying the course.

[boolean]

2. Abso-fucking-lutely

Impeach Impeach Impeach!

[BurtWorm]

4. All in good time.

Impeachment is overrated. See 1998. Resignation in disgrace is not a bad alternative, however.

[DemPower]

102. Bush and Cheney would go running scared if Dems began impeachment inquiries...

Resignation would save us alot of time.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. KnR

[Laelth]

73. Thanks for the k&r!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[SoFlaJet]

6. It's a waste of energy

and it will make the democrats out to be nothing better (to the American people) than what they hoped to get rid of by voting FOR democrats-move forward and get something USEFULL done-he'll be gone soon enough.This coming from a guy that hates what they did as much as anyone...

[Laelth]

14. So which are we?

Liars or wimps?

If we don't impeach, those are our options.

-Laelth

[originalpckelly]

22. "Stay the course" or "cut and run?"

I am so proud to see you're black and white goggles are back from the shop. You should take them off once and a while, because they distort your understanding of reality.

[Laelth]

29. Charming!

Never mind ...

:dem:

-Laelth

[femrap]

31. I think we'd be viewed as complicit

with the neocons.

* is not going to work with the Dems IMHO. Let's get some Hearings started which will result in some subpoenas and what comes out could result in Impeachment or maybe a resignation. Poppy * already has reined in the inept son...I don't think the son can be saved.

Remember, the Dems have not been able to do a thing in the past 6 years regarding investigations....now we can. Let that shit hit the air waves and the American people are going to be ready to kick him out.

Conyers with subpoena power! That's what I wanted from this election and now we have it! This is gonna be sweet! As Nancy said: Drain the swamp.

[SoFlaJet]

35. Statesmen

I'd much rather see the democrats fixing elections and getting back the fairness doctrine and raising the minimum wage and getting us out of Iraq and on and on.......FIRST

[Laelth]

40. If we lose the Constitution, what good does any of that do us?

I have a legislative agenda a mile long that I'd like to see enacted, but we will lose the next election, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that if we don't show the American people that we will fight for the Constitution.

imho ...

:patriot:

-Laelth

[SoFlaJet]

43. we also have to restore

habeas corpus-we have a lot of work to do-like you said.I'd hate to see all the good we can do be upstaged every night by bitter partisanship Laelth-you know? We have a chance to SHOW all the Reagan Dems that came back and independents that came over that we are BETTER than the republicans.I appeal to our better Angels-to fore-go resentment

[Laelth]

48. Consider that ...

... the Reagan Democrats voted for Reagan precisely because President Carter was perceived as a wimp who allowed American hostages to be held in Iran by radical fundamentalists. The fact that Carter actually negotiated their release was ignored. Democrats were labeled wimps, and have been labeled wimps for over 25 years. JFK wasn't a wimp. He stared down the Soviets in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Truman wasn't a wimp. He dropped the atomic bomb. FDR wasn't a wimp. He fought Japan and Germany in WWII. The "Democrats are wimps" meme has got to go. Our angelic natures too often keep us from getting elected.

If we want to have a Democratic president elected in 2008, we have got to look strong. We have to be strong. We must fight for the Constitution.

Thanks for the reply.

-Laelth

[Danascot]

77. We have to undo the damage B*sh did to the constitution

Even with both houses, we can't repeal the laws that subvert the constitution ... If we pass repeals B*sh could and would veto and we don't have the majorities necessary to override.

As you say, we may not have another chance after 2008 so it must be done now. I say start with the investigations - it will inevitably lead to impeachment as the truth comes out ... you know it's much worse than what we already know.

[Oak2004]

107. Most people can walk and chew gum at the same time n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

45. Exactly, lets cut straight to indictment and warcrimes trials

[porphyrian]

64. It's not an option, it's a Constitutional imperative.

We are a nation of laws. If the highest ranking members of our government, who are sworn to uphold our Constitution, break those laws, they are to be impeached lest we render our laws and our Constitution meaningless. That doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate, gather evidence and explain it to the people first. However, at this point, there is no question that we must impeach. Only the when is up for discussion.

[Laelth]

72. Hear, hear!

:applause:

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Guaranteed]

84. It's a Constitutional imperative to FIX OUR PROBLEMS,

NOT to seek revenge for the last six years.

[porphyrian]

86. Obeying our laws is NOT seeking revenge. You've swallowed a lie.

Spit it out before you get sick.

One of our biggest problems is that the people in the highest positions of our government have broken our laws and defied the Constitution they swore to uphold. That isn't simply impeachable, it's our duty to impeach them for it. As a nation of laws, we must follow those laws, and those laws are clear. The revenge angle is bullshit spin from the terrified criminals who know what's coming, don't fall for it.

[Guaranteed]

89. It goes against the best interest of our country- Dems getting power back in 2008

and passing important legislation- to throw Bush in jail, and have Cheney become president.

You know what this reminds me of? Bush wanting to invade Iraq. Saddam was MARGINALIZED, BOXED IN. But he just HAD to go in there- because of his little vendetta- and RUIN EVERYTHING. He ruined all the goodwill the world had toward us after 9/11.

Clearly, if anyone ever deserved impeachment, it's Bush. Clearly, Saddam was a horrible leader, as well. But, I ask you, is it WORTH sacrificing the goodwill of the voters? Is it WORTH taking up all of our legislator's time that they could be using to roll back the actual DAMAGE that has been DONE?? Just so that you can see that clown in handcuffs? Is it worth- if we were successful, which we would NEVER be- throwing out our best bet for actually winning the White House in 2008- Bush as our target, and also allowing another Republican to come in as President, and get re-elected in 2008 and 2012?

Is all of that CRAP worth it, just so that you can get off on getting revenge against Bush?

And don't act like this isn't revenge. I know DU, and I know myself. The motive for this IS revenge- which is certainly a large part of justice.

But we need to have in mind what is best for our country. This impeachment talk is extremely narrow minded and selfish.

[porphyrian]

92. You are simply wrong.

As a nation of laws, allowing our own President to disregard them and the Constitution they've sworn to uphold invalidates our defining qualities. You are acting paranoid and irrational. While I'll defend your right to believe this, you are simply wrong.

[Botany]

8. Down Boy.

all things in time ..... investigations will show bush & Cheney's crimes
and then many repugs who want to save their own skins will lead the
charge to impeach bush

[MazeRat7]

9. It would be a really stupid move to make that our #1 priority....

IMHO.

To change the country and un-do the damage to our democracy, we need to use a scalpel not a broadsword. We are playing chess with these folks.. not whack-a-mole.

MZr7

[Laelth]

12. Nobody said anything about #1 priority.

Only that it must be done.

-Laelth

[porphyrian]

11. If you believe in our Constitution, impeachment is an imperative.

There is no question of whether we should or not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't accumulate as much evidence as possible before doing so. It's also not a bad idea to make sure support for it is there, although that's going to be the easy part since we hold the majority in both the House and the Senate.

[w13rd0]

13. Why impeach when we can obstruct?

In a divided Washington, a Democratic House and Senate can actually get things DONE. And if he wants to be a petulant child and veto our efforts, we'll just tar and feather him and his party with the obstructionist label. They'll be obstructing real solutions for working families. Not that I would mind turning them ALL out, but we also want to start REPAIRING THE DAMAGE HE HAS CAUSED. And we can start doing that as soon as we get those gavels.

[Laelth]

15. It's good to get things done.

And there's a lot that needs to be done.

But if we don't impeach, we're either liars or wimps.

Which is it?

-Laelth

[MADem]

16. The impeachment process does not equate to removal.

The process begins in the House and ends in the Senate. If you think two thirds of the Senate will vote to remove the Monkey, think again. It won't happen. So it's really pointless to call for it.

Far better to keep him where he is, ineffective, constrained, and taking orders from his slightly more intelligent father. This is now Bush 41's second term. It can't be worse than 43's.

It also is useful for Congress to do some sincere, detailed and serious investigating and uncover all the abuses so that history will accurately reflect the excesses of this administration.

[Laelth]

76. No, but removal isn't the point.

Showing the American people and the world that we will not sit idly by while fascists shred the Constitution is the point. We owe it to the world to investigate and punish those who violate the law. Else we are no better than they.

imho ...

:patriot:

-Laelth

[MADem]

79. Certainly, investigations are EXPECTED, but don't pin your hopes on impeachment

even if wrongdoing is uncovered. Smaller fish will be sacrificed, if need be, and Monkey will play the Reagan Defense (duuh, duuuuuuh....I, uh, forgot...I, uh, don't remember, I uh, dunno...) only he'll probably call it the "CEO Defense" (ah don' git down in de weeeeeeeeds, heh, heh, y'see...ah am de decider, an' ahm also de delegator...ah delegate...ah don' do the work mah sef, y'see...heh heh...).

[Laelth]

91. You're probably right.

And I'll be satisfied if we can just show the world and the country that we tried to effect justice. That will be enough, I think, to convince the American people that we're capable of handling the "War on Terror" and keeping America safe.

We lose, time and again, because we're not trusted on foreign policy. People think we're wimps. Here we have a chance to prove them wrong by standing up for the Constitution and international law. Why would we let that slip by?

:patriot:

-Laelth

[ClassWarrior]

124. Eloquently said.

:patriot:

Never Give Up.

[AntiFascist]

113. It is absolutely NOT pointless to do it, it is imperative!

1. Bringing the corruption to light so that it doesn't happen again.
2. Making it clear that it is imperative for the Executive Branch to obey the laws.
3. Bringing back worldwide respect to the US.
4. Helping to end the war by exposing the profiteering behind it.
5. If the majority of the senate votes against impeachment, when criminality is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it will make them look very bad.

There are probably many, many more reasons.

[MADem]

119. All I can say is, prepare for disappointment, then. It ain't gonna happen. NT

[Laelth]

121. I've been disappointed for six years now.

If my party fails me this time, I won't be disappointed. I'll be outraged, and so will much of the country and most of the world.

We deserve to lose again and again and again if we won't fight for justice and the Constitution.

:mad:

-Laelth

[MADem]

122. Gosh, I look at life through rose colored glasses nowadays.

Today is WAY better than two days ago. We have the House, we have the Senate, we can set the legislative agenda. If Monkey signs the legislation we send him, all is well. If he fails to, then he's an obstructionist.

I think we're in a great situation, IF we can get some good laws passed.

History will serve justice on the Monkey, and it won't be pretty. We simply don't have the votes to impeach him, there's not a HOPE of it, so all that exercise will do is divide, waste time, give the GOP a whining point, and not do the business of the American people.

It's a very unlikely scenario. It's just not a viable possibility.

[Laelth]

123. Consider, please ...

... just how helpful it will be to our '08 candidate to have the Repukes and talking heads whining and whimpering about those mean, nasty, vindictive Democrats.

We have a credibility problem as a party. The American people think we're wimps. They don't trust us to fight the terrorists. If we want to win in '08, we've got to show some spine. We must fight back. How can we ask the American people to trust us to fight terrorists if we're afraid to fight Republicans?

Bush and his administration are war criminals. We must hold them accountable, or we have no credibility.

just my 2 cents ...

:patriot:

Thanks for the reply.

-Laelth

[MADem]

125. But they say that anyway. They never call us wimps to our faces

They use the word amongst themselves, the rabid twenty percent, but when they talk to the DUMB American public (not to be mean about them, but I refer to the bozos who do not follow politics, are unsure of the difference between a representative and a Senator, but who toddle out to the polls every four years to vote for the President) they love to paint us as mean, obstructionist, thwarters of their precious agenda--and they do it EVEN when we are in the minority!!!

It's a total reality disconnect. They get away with it, though, because they aim their message at those who don't pay attention, and those who get their news from Faux.

I think we win with results that we can point to, things like health care reform, social security reform, taxing the uberwealthy to a fair extent, and removing the burden from the middle class taxpayer, making college more affordable for average kids, bringing some decent jobs back to America, that kind of stuff.

We want average people to say "I am better off since the Democrats got back in power, and I am better off than I EVER was under the GOP."

If we can do that, we've won. We don't need to go round and round with an impeachment effort that will never succeed. History will judge Monkeyboy, and harshly, too.

:hi:

[Laelth]

127. I could care less how history will judge the monkeyboy.

All I care about, at the moment, is how the American people and the citizens of the world judge us, the Democratic party.

We can't enact a progressive legislative agenda. We lack the votes in the Senate to override a veto. Things won't get better unless we win the presidency in '08. In order to do that, we've got to convince the average American that he or she can trust us to keep them safe. If we can't keep them safe from Republicans, what's to make them think we can keep them safe from terrorists?

Am I not being clear, here? People expect us to fight for them. We will lose all credibility if we roll over and play nice. War criminals and those who violate the Constitutional principles they have sworn to uphold must be fought. Why would we pass up the opportunity to show we have a spine?

I just don't get your argument, I guess.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--usage.

[MADem]

132. No rolling over...NO!!! We focus on bread and butter issues.

Who deserves a tax cut? The middle class. How do we fund it? We tax those rich bastards. Write the legislation, send it up to the Monkey, and he vetos it. Who's the obstructionist? The Monkey.

Who needs their Medicare Donut hole filled? Seniors do. Write legislation to fill that hole. Send it to the Monkey. If he vetos it, HE's the asshole.

As for getting sixty votes to override, all ya gotta do is get the list of Senators, one third of the bunch, up for reelection in 08 and start working those bastards, playing them like a cheap flute. You make it tough for them by putting a chunk of pork in any bill that they'll also have to vote against if they want to vote against the main legislation...then it can be used against them when they run for reelection...I mean, really, the commercials write themselves: Not only did Senator Republican vote AGAINST the Medicare/tuition aid/healthcare/healthcare for veterans (pick one or all) bill, he also voted against the Highway Improvement Project for Fill-in-the-state and the Airport Rehabilitation for Fill-in-the-Big-City, which would have brought hundreds of jobs to Fill-in-the-State! Senator Republican DOESN'T CARE about JOBS for Fill-in-the-STATE!!!

And look at the GOP weasels you have to work with who will be up for reelection--you can SCREW them with the right crafting of key bits of legislation: Norm Coleman, Lamar Alexander, Jeff Sessions, Liddy Dole, Mitch McConnell, John Sununu, Lindsey Graham, Ted Stevens, Wayne Allard, Jim Imhofe, Susan Collins...and several more in addition to those.

Quite frankly, I can deal with two more years of a constrained, lame duck Bush, if it means that the Democratic nominee for the Presidency is running against the BushCo legacy.

You dump Bush now, and you may get a second of revenge, but then, Cheney could pick Mitt Romney to be his VP, resign, let Mitt take over, and Mitt could pick some other rightwing pious asshole as his VP...and then we could have some SERIOUS trouble. They'd have two years to play "Beauty Pageant" on the national stage while the Democrats in the Legislature did the hard work, and people are VERY slow to swap out an incumbent leader if things aren't going badly (and they wouldn't be, with Democratic legislation being passed) and the leaders in question haven't actually pulled out their cranks and stepped on them.

Revenge is a dish served very, very cold. I say we constrain Bush now, bend him to our will, and trounce the GOP in 08.

YMMV.

[Laelth]

133. I can see, through that scenario, how we might get ...

... some good legislation passed. But I think we'll lose the White House in '08 if we pursue that path.

And I think Bush is about to discover his long-lost veto power. He has tunnel vision, and is as hard-headed as a mule. He will veto. It's possible, as you suggest, that we may still be able to twist enough Repuke arms in the Senate to override a veto.

But obstructionist? That charge carries little weight, imho. And I'm convinced that we must stand up for the Constitution before we'll have the street credibility to stand up to global terror. We may keep Congress for 20 years, but until we can show we have a spine, we won't win the White House.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

-Laelth

[LonelyLRLiberal]

135. Okay, picture this spin in response to impeachment by the House:

"The Democrats are helping the terrorists. They don't want "the professionals" to have the tools needed to "do the job" of preventing the terrorists from winning. etc., blah, blah, blah"

And a whole bunch of Americans will fall for it.

We should impeach when we have enough moderate Republican Senators in agreement to win an impeachment trial and we have the American people understanding what these traitors have done and why they have to be impeached.

[Laelth]

138. That shouldn't take long.

I think most Republicans loathe him too.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Bobbie Jo]

142. If I remember correctly.....

The Rethugs have remained in power (to this day) after they impeached Clinton, and there is far more hate for Bush today than there ever was for Clinton.

The RW propaganda machine has had us smacked down and afraid to flinch for the last 12 years....talk about wimpy.

[tomp]

164. excellent list, antifascist!!!!!! nt

[OneBlueSky]

17. impeachment would dominate the government and the nation . . .

and pretty much prevent anything else from getting done . . . and there is SO-O-O-O-O-O much that needs doing . . .

an alternative is to gather the evidence and build the case and then prosecute the bastards after they leave office . . . and spend the next two years focusing on digging out of the shithole mess that BushCo has created . . .

THEN go after them for their war crimes and crimes against humanity . . .

[ClassWarrior]

23. Yeah, we can't let something silly like serving justice...

...get in the way of what's important. :eyes:

NGU.

[fudge stripe cookays]

75. What's IMPORTANT....

are getting those soldiers HOME, bringing back the Fairness Doctrine, getting paper ballots back for our votes, accountability for our reps, and SAVING OUR ENVIRONMENT, which is about to go over a cliff!

Impeachment can wait.

IT WILL HAVE TO UNTIL WE GET A 2/3 MAJORITY IN THE SENATE!! What about this don't you people understand? These impeachement threads are a waste of bandwidth until we get that.

[ClassWarrior]

85. "You people?"

Thanks for the condescension. Didn't expect that from a friend.

NGU.

[fudge stripe cookays]

88. Sorry....wrong choice of words.

didn't mean it to sound condescending. We cannot GET impeachment right now.

Perhaps after some time has passed, but not yet. Maybe Bush will eat a baby in office or something so heinous even his own tribe will rebel (I'm not holding my breath on that one), but I just don't get what is so difficult about the 2/3 majority concept.

[ClassWarrior]

101. Thanks for rephrasing.

I'm just saying that crimes have been committed, and it's our responsibility to serve justice. As one of the ultimate tools of justice in this case, IMPEACHMENT must not be off the table, no matter what the political calculations. And it's up to us, the American People to keep it on the table.

NGU.

[MADem]

120. We've some here who just want revenge, and they aren't gonna be happy

unless they get it. I'm with you though--he'd have to eat the baby of a beloved sports figure on a championship team in a major market to get people riled up enough to get that two thirds!!

It's just not gonna happen. We're better off with a "Party of ADULTS" theme--which will probably garner us more converts over the long term, anyway. There's a shift going on, it's palpable. We just need to be judicious and take advantage of it, not go off half cocked and determined to exact retribution!

[mondo joe]

141. What makes you think impeachment is about justice?

[SoFlaJet]

51. Exactly right OBS

all the good we can do will be obscured by impeachment-we'll be making the same mistake the republicans did-what's that saying?Those who forget the lessons of history being doomed DOOMED to repeat them...I'd much rather hear on the news about the progress the dems are making instead of whats' being done in impeachment hearings-look ahead not back dems

[Laelth]

53. Consider also that ...

... we may want all the good things we are doing to be obscured. Clinton's attempt at national health insurance in 1993 and 1994 was torpedoed because it was out in the open. The Repukes could focus on it. The media focused on it too, and nothing got done. Personally, I'd like a big, national distraction this time to keep the opposition busy while we, behind the scenes, enact some legislation for the good of the American people. Universal health care is on my list, and I don't want to see it torpedoed again.

A big distraction could prove useful to us.

-Laelth

[SoFlaJet]

56. I respectfully disagree

but it's a great thread Lae

[Laelth]

61. Fair enough.

And thanks!

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Jokerman]

19. K&R

[Laelth]

151. Thanks for the k&r!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[acmavm]

20. How do we get that through the Senate for a conviction? We

can spend millions of dollars getting the Articles of Impeachment throught the House, but how do we get the 2/3's majority necessary to convict?

[Laelth]

28. True

We might not convict. But who cares? All we need to do is show the American people that we will fight for the Constitution. In any event, I suspect * would resign before being convicted. Furthermore, we may underestimate the degree to which his own party loathes him. They may force him to resign.

-Laelth

[raccoon]

38. If we don't it's like saying everything he did was OK. K&R. nt

[Laelth]

52. Thanks for the k&r!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Ilsa]

21. They did vote for change.

"If we don't, we're either liars (saying he didn't really shred the Constitution) or wimps (too weak to do anything about it). Personally, I'm sick of the "Democrats are wimps" meme."

I think we need to make it clear to the American people that their needs for access to healthcare, etc, are a higher priority than our image as "wimps". I have to say that yes, this would probably come up as a nasty GOP talking point, though.

I'd rather see Cheney dealt with first. I think there is a ton of corruption to easily go after with him first. Maybe Dumbya could get drawn into it.

I think we need to also be concerned with continuing our momentum as a party that will get the work that benefits the people done.

[gordianot]

24. If the truth ever really comes out Impeachment will be unnecessary.

Think resignation.

[ClassWarrior]

26. Or it will be inevitable.

NGU.

[gordianot]

36. There are some true horrors that are just under the surface.

A few well placed discussions could avoid too much of a public spectacle. Land was purchased in Paraguay for good reason.

[rateyes]

25. Just start investigating and let the evidence take

us where we need to go. Once the dirty laundry is aired, the people won't put up with it. My bet is that within a year there will be calls for impeachment. Pull the plug and start draining the swamp so that people can see where the bodies are buried. LIGHT is the cure for darkness.

[Octafish]

27. Chimpeachment will happen as the truth is revealed.

We must be patient. If we even appear to move too fast, the 38-percent who support the Little Turd from Crawford will try to turn our enthusiasm for Justice into a witch hunt.

The new Congress will do its job. They first must tackle the major problems Bush has created. As they do their thing, Congress will discover the criminality -- from ENRON Energy policy to ignoring 911 to linking 911 to Iraq to outting Plame to NSA spying to Torture Inc to shredding the Constitution -- that they can't help but impeach the war criminal Bush.

And after Smirk's out of office, the criminal trials can begin. Life in Leavenworth is hard. Hope they put him on some kind of webcam 24/7 so the public can watch what happens to traitors.

[gordianot]

41. Treason Cam what a wonderful idea!

Just think he might really be an enemy combatant when we find out what REALLY transpired.

[tomp]

46. i also believe patience is in order.

first of all, nothing much can happen until january when the new congress is sworn in. nothing much except behind-the-scenes preparations. this would be a great time for dems to get their "house" in order so to speak.

that said, i'm not expecting much from the dems. i don't trust them. i think they are part of the problem. i will be very surprised to see impeachment or trials instigated by the dems.

what happens in january and thereafter will tell.

also remember "scooter" is coming to trial in january, iirc.

secondly, i'm not for "making nice" and i am not for bipartisanship. i think we have to be consistent. these guys are criminals and the have been enabled by accomplices and colluders in all quarters, including the democratic party.

there is no more important issue than summing up what has happened over the last 6 years. but what hs happenend over the last 6 years also has a history, going back at least as far as the 60's assassination, vietnam, and nixon. part of why we are in iraq, part of why the planet is falling apart, etc, is that we as a nation failed to learn our lessons. we fail again not just at our peril, but at our demise.

[ClassWarrior]

166. Congressional Dems need to be patient. But at the same time...

...WE need to get busy and start building a groundswell for IMPEACHMENT so the public is primed for it when the investigations begin. We have to do what they can't.

NGU.

[robinlynne]

30. We have more important things to do right now. he will be. don't worry.

Let's first repeal the patriot act and the torture act, get out of iraq, put a bunch of people in jail.... We need to undo everything he has done. He will come tumbling down, impeached or otherwise. Don't you worry. Right now we need to get all the facts out; there will be hearings about ohio 2004. We need to get rid of HAVA, his henchmen. if we went for impeachment, that would be it, the only information the public could hear, and we couldn't really do all the good work we need to do. Looks like the international court already wants Rumsfeld. There may be international proceedings brought against Bush too.

Besides,someone posted a few days ago on Du brilliantly, that by uncovering all teh doings, from the bottom up, the American people will themselves rise up and ask for impeachment. I think that is the smart way to do it. Otherwise you have to put all your energy into fighting that one battle. This way we grow stronger and they grow weaker.

[Laelth]

74. I'm not asking for impeachment on day 1 of the new Congress.

But our legislative agenda will get nowhere unless we hold the Repukes' feet to the fire. * still has veto power, and we can't override a veto in the Senate. Criminal investigations that lead to impeachment will make the Repukes much more amenable to compromise and cooperation.

imho ...

-Laelth

[robinlynne]

103. It will happen. I heard on NPR radio today, a lwayer , who said that

Pelosi's statement about not aksing for impeachment is standard. She will ask for the impeachment when the public is asking for impeachment. That made sense to me.

[Laelth]

106. imo ...

... they just asked, loud and clear, on Nov. 7.

-Laelth

[robinlynne]

109. point taken.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. Saying something that isn't going to happen "must" is foolish.

Calling for the Democrats to begin impeachment *procedings* against Bush, while I think misguided, is at least a coherent position.

Calling for the Democrats to "impeach" Bush is silly, because they can't do it. It's like saying "We must fly".

[Laelth]

42. Thanks for the grammar lesson.

And you're wrong. Bush can be impeached. The Democratic House can do that. Whether or not he'll be convicted by the Senate is another matter. But, again, who cares? All we have to do is show the American people that we will fight for the Constitution.

imho ...

-Laelth

[Vorta]

33. If he's impeached and tossed does he lose his pension?

[PuraVidaDreamin]

34. I agree- then tried for war crimes!

I am thankful for John Conyers and Henry Waxman!

[reichstag911]

37. In addition to Cheney and Chimpy,...

...Dems should also seriously consider impeaching Scalia and Clarence "Stepin" Thomas, his loyal butt-boy, given their joint failure to recuse themselves in the Bush v. Gore debacle. Despite the fact that they both had conflict of interest issues therein (IIRC, Scalia's son worked for one of the law firms on Bush's side, and Thomas' wife was working for the Bush transition team), not to mention the specious, unconstitutional dismissal of the concept of common law precedent inherent in their rulling thereon, they remained on the case. Then, of course, there's Scalia's failure to recuse in the Cheney energy policy meetings case; he's a hunting buddy of one of the parties in the case, and he sees no reason why anyone would reasonably question his impartiality?

[BootinUp]

44. These orderly investigations should have a logical reason

other than, we are looking into impeachment. Justify it in terms of fixing something thats broke in the system, and make sure the reason flies with the public. Then get to work.

[OHdem10]

47. Stop and Think!

While I understand how pasionately some feel about Impeachment and
with good reason, there are some considerations which must be
undertaken. We are all aware that some very smart attorneys,etc
who have made the case for imeachment. Stop and Think as Bill
Clinton would say. Just because you can does not mean you should.

l. No one is happier than I am today to see the Dems in charge.
We must remember however that the people who voted for us--voted
for change. Yes, they were fed up with the Administration but
there is a country mile between being fed up and wanting to put
the country through the agony we suffered over Bill Clinton's
Impeachment. We have to remember that it was Independents and
some sensible Republicans who helped us keep his(Clinton's) poll numbers
around 66% as the process meanedered along. The people were
not going to let him be thrown out of office.
It was Independents and some sensible Republicans who have helped
us have this wonderful victory today. Many of them were not voting
for Dems but against Republicans. They are willing to give our
party a chance. That pesky poll result--Country going in wrong
direction or the Right Track -- Wrong Track which aways came up
Country is on the Wrong Track. They want our party to try to
get this ship back on the right track. Most Democrats greatest
concern is the Country on a warong track.

To start off our new seesion with Impeachment Hearings would
be an over-reach. The Republicans have just lost because
they overreached. It would be saying our party is as politically
tone deaf as theGOP.

Please let us use our energy to keep the Democratic Congress on
the right track. Keep an eye--a real close eye on this
Lame Duck Session. Do not let those "sneaky Republicans"
put some undesireable legislation through before the new
Congress assumes control in January.

While I understand the passion re Impeachment, just maybe we
should concentrate our energies elsewhere. This is a sure
way for our party to be thrown out the time around.
As long as we have the split the difference system.--our
winning requires Dems Independents and Republicans to win
elections--we must always Stop and Think.
(half the country does not vote and neither party seems
to care--thus Split the difference.)
Stop and Think!

[Laelth]

50. I have thought about this a great deal, thank you.

The "Democrats are wimps" meme has got to go. If we want to have a Democratic president elected in 2008, we have got to look strong. We have to be strong. We must fight for the Constitution. I want to hear whiny talking heads crying about how mean the Democrats are being to those poor, pathetic Repukes.

I want them to call us lots of names ... mean, vindictive, combative. In the mind of the American people, all of those mean the same thing ... STRONG.

I want Americans to know that Democrats can be strong. The current global, political climate demands that we grow a spine and defend the Constitution. Is that too much to ask?

-Laelth

[OHdem10]

57. You make excellent points,

but to many people (average citizens--not as knowledgeable as
those on this board and who psot here) the fact that Bush was
forced to fire Rumsfeld yesterday--translates. Those Dems
got some kind of Power. The voters who put us in got
their first response immediately.

If the Dems want to look strong they will get up there,
act confident even when secretly they may feel scared to
death. They will stop hemming and hawing and act with
purpose, doing what they can to bring a little unity
to the country. If they lie down and roll over for the
Republicans, they will be out the next election.


I am saying the timing is horrible to try to start impeachment.
Joe and Jane Six Pack do not have the same concerns about
the constitution. They have to be "educated" and brought
along. 2 years????? what else could be accomplished.

They voted to stop the fighting and get something done.
The Dems will have to be tough and not be bullied.

The Media will have to be convinced Impeachment is the
right way to go -- somehow I do not see that happening.
It does not hurt to continuously make the case
for impeachment --this is how people learn.

I just think we should not try to pressure our Members
on this right now.
R

[Laelth]

59. I hear ya.

And even in my opening post I called for some patience. I called for investigations, first, that then lead to impeachment.

But I'm trying to send a message to the party leadership that the "Dems. are wimps" meme has got to go. We really have to work on that. And if we were telling the American people the truth, that the Republicans were shredding the Constitution, then criminal investigations that lead to impeachment are the only reasonable response ...

... unless we truly are wimps.

We must defend the Constitution. Otherwise, we are complicit in its destruction.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Auggie]

62. OHdem10 -- I'm with you

[Zomby Woof]

54. Opposing impeachment/playing nice is a false dichotomy

Those of us who think impeachment is unwise or unworkable, are not interested in "playing nice" with Bush. We just prefer confronting Bush's legislative mishaps and correcting our nation's course. We should NOT play nice on the floors of Congress, when it comes to bills and debates.

This is an issue driven by understandably pent-up emotions, but we need to act on our brains - a resource with which we outweigh the Republicans by far - and not by being overconsumed with "making him pay".

We have already made him pay, by fully repudiating him at the polls Tuesday. Rememnber, the GOP need for vengeance fueled their obsession with getting Clinton, and it caused them to self-destruct. We must not succumb to that kind of obsessive rage. We have TOO MUCH to lose, and I for one can't take another 12 year Congressional drought. We must get the White House back in 2008 AND keep Congress.

Impeachment may be doable as far as introducing the articles before the House, but the Senate does not have enough Republicans who would cross party lines to give us the 2/3 majority needed for conviction and removal. It would be an embarrassment to fall short of removing him, making the entire process for naught.

Plus, do you REALLY want Cheney officially installed?

You all are not THINKING this through. Believe me, I fantasize about some harsher things than impeachment to befall that rat bastard. But Tuesday was enough, as EarlG correctly asserted.

[Laelth]

58. Of course, I don't want Cheney installed.

But who cares? We probably can't convict Bush in the Senate, anyway. That's not the point. The point is to show that Democrats can be strong.

And I have thought about this a great deal.

All I want to do via impeachment is to improve the image of the Democratic party. That's all. I'm thinking of future elections, not just our legislative agenda for the next two years. Bush will veto most of our good legislation anyway. All we can do now is to check his power. Other than that, the one thing we can do is improve the image of the party by showing the American people that we will defend the Constitution.

We must look strong if we hope to win in 2008. The "Democrats are wimps" meme has got to go.

-Laelth

[cascadiance]

55. We need president Pelosi!

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/pelosi+07/-/pv_design_prod/p_1251196.26658666/pNo_26658666/id_8021676/fpt_/opt_/c_360/pg_

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Obviously.

It should also be done properly and thoroughly, requiring many investigations and many months.

In the mean time, since we've got Bush by the balls we should ram legislation through- min. wage, stems cells, insurance, repealing the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, etc.

[Laelth]

63. Right on!

That's exactly what I would hope for!

:applause:

:dem:

-Laelth

[Mnemosyne]

70. Completely agree Bornaginhooligan. But it must happen. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Yes.

We can't allow this new Congress to turn into a bunch of Liebermans.

You either support Bush, or you support impeachment.

[Mnemosyne]

96. Word. n/t

[Mnemosyne]

65. Possibly close to a million people dead for his lies.

* has violated the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Principles and the UN Charter. How anyone can believe the world isn't waiting to see if we hold him accountable or instead act politically sweet and let it slide awhile to avoid internal conflict, is beyond me.

*&co are

WAR CRIMINALS

any way it reads and should be treated as such.

We

OWE

this to the dead and to those that continue to suffer due to these war criminals.

We

OWE

this to the

WORLD

to assure them we will not allow such tyranny to reign here ever again.

[Laelth]

68. Hear, hear!

:applause:

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Xenotime]

66. If we can't impeach, then undo all the shit he has done to the country.

It's our power now.

[bloom]

67. We should have a march on Washington

the hell with this sweeping everything under the rug and making nice.

[yodermon]

69. Cheney first. Cheney first. Start at the top

and work your way down.
Seriously.

[warrens]

81. We can undo the damage

Do you seriously think we have 75 votes in the Senate to convict? We don't. So why bother with the charade, unless you want to be viewed like the 98 Repukes.

[Laelth]

82. We don't need to convict him.

We need to resist him. That's all. We need to stand up for the Constitution.

What's so bad about that? Isn't that what the people want? I could have sworn that was the message I heard on 11/07/06.

-Laelth

[Guaranteed]

83. Alright, the impeachment talk is getting really irritating.

Lose the blood vendetta. Fix the country.

[Laelth]

87. I understand your frustration.

But if we don't resist the "Democrats are wimps" meme that the Repukes and the talking heads have been selling the country for 25 years, we're not going to be able to fix anything that's wrong with the country.

We were just given a mandate to resist Bush and his cronies and stand up for the Constitutional rights of the American people. If we fail to do anything about their shredding of our Constitution, we deserve to lose the next six elections. We will have shown ourselves to be as weak as the Repukes tell everyone we are.

This isn't about bloodletting. It's about the future of America and the future of the Democratic Party.

-Laelth

[Swamp Rat]

95. No way man! After what he did to us in New Orleans! IMPEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[baby_mouse]

90. IF and When it is clear that there are grounds the American Public *supports*...

Not grounds *you and I* support, laelth, the public.

We must't forget the rest of them, you remember, the ones that don't know what impeachment IS...

IF that is established, which is possible, THEN impeachment. Now is not the time to go off half cocked.

You have the power now. Now is a good time to look at the cards, laelth, now is a breathing space. I DO NOT bar impeachment (except on the grounds that it was once used as a dirty Republican trick and the taste of that dirtiness still hangs in the publics mouth... be wary of putting George in a medica circus battlefield, the republicans will love that), I say merely, look at everything and consider the options... strike, by all means at your disposal, but breathe first, and THEN strike. That's all I'm saying.

Those newly elected democratic senators are not going away any time soon and Bush has NOTHING and *no hope* of anything coming to him... :-)

[Laelth]

94. I hear ya.

But I think the American people can understand that the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. I think they can understand that signing statements are a problem too. Many Americans really are concerned about their Constitutional rights (Republican-voting Libertarians, in particular), and they know that Bush has greatly restricted their rights, both unilaterally and with the aid of his rubber-stamp Congress.

I think you'd be surprised at how quickly the American people will line up behind impeachment. But patience is definitely called for. We need investigations first, but I maintain that Bush MUST be impeached (unless he resigns first).

:)

-Laelth

[Swamp Rat]

93. IMPEACH BUSH NOW!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2628532&mesg_id=2628532

[Duncan]

97. I Agree.

Nobody can deny that Bush has commited Impeachable offenses, and investigation will only continue to show this to be true. Therfore Impeach. How can anybody say "don't impeach" ?

Prez Cheney would still be a lame duck oil puppet, just like he is now, and no worse than Prez Bush. Hell, impeach them both at the same time. Granted, I'm not familiar with the legalistic nuances on the definition of impeachment, and what it does to the ability to indict, but I think it means holding them accountable, which MUST be done.

[happydreams]

98. K&R. Bush must be impeached.

[Laelth]

114. Thanks for the k&r.

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[happydreams]

116. My pleasure.

:hi:

[Imperialism Inc.]

99. Are you all voting in this DU poll then?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2657215&mesg_id=2657215

With everyone hollering for impeachment it is making me doubt the wording the poll linked to. I meant option 2 as kind of , don't really focus on it but if it happens so be it.

[Laelth]

100. Hmm ...

Yes, I'm not sure about the wording. I am certain that an investigation will turn up sufficient grounds for impeachment. Lying us into a war is much worse than a BJ. So the "if found" clause in option #2 is a bit problematic.

-Laelth

[earth mom]

104. Impeach *: Do it Yourself

Check it out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2662784

[novalib]

105. DO NOT IMPEACH BUSH!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!

Do NOT impeach Bush -- alone!

IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY!

INDICT RICE AND RUMMY!!

INDICT SANTORUM!!

TRY THEM!!

CONVICT THEM!!

MAKE THE FUCKERS PAY FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!!

[AntiFascist]

110. K&R, by not proceeding toward impeachment we are also setting a precedent

by saying that it is ok to shred and subvert the Constitution.

[Laelth]

112. Hear, hear!

Yet another good argument in favor of impeachment.

Well said.

:patriot:

:dem:

-Laelth

[about-time]

115. go for it

[Laelth]

117. Welcome to DU!

You caught us at our best. :sarcasm: (depending on your point of view) :)

:patriot:

-Laelth

[blm]

118. The truth comes out, Bush will RESIGN - he's not as tough as Clinton was.

.

[steve2470]

126. k& r, we agree with each other actually nt

[Laelth]

144. Thanks for the k&r!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[William Bloode]

128. I'don't know.

Maybe it's the lingering high from winning for the first time in awhile. I'm just digging the fact they lost, got their collective asses handed to them. Getting knocked off your high horse is a rough fall, especially when you were riding a horse so high.

There are better ways to get at him than impeachment. There are a whole litany of things to investigate, prod in, and poke around. Also we have had so much go wrong in six years we honestly need to work first on repairing as much damage as possible. I'd love to see them all locked away, ostracized, and done away with. The blood of many is on their hands, and they should pay. But to me the truth is there is just so much suffering and, injustice i feel these things must be addressed first. The suffering and injustice must end, before i think of revenge for passed crimes and, misdeeds. point i guess i'm tryin' to make is, if we focus on vengeance for the past, we may impede the process of setting things back right.

[Laelth]

129. Impeachment has nothing to do with vengeance.

We must show we have spine. We must show we can fight for the values and principles we espouse. We must gain some credibility with the American people. If we won't fight crooked, war-criminal Republicans, how are we going to convince Americans that we can keep them safe from terrorists?

Impeachment is the first step to winning the Presidency in '08.

imho ...

-Laelth

[William Bloode]

130. Thats your opinion.

My opinion is progress is the ticket too '08. Make some things right, give some people some hope. Impeachment could impede progress, and my main concern is to see the suffering begin to end.

[Sheri]

131. i agree

chimpeach! chimpeach! chimpeach! chimpeach! chimpeach!

:rofl:

[L0oniX]

134. K&R impeach the ass carrot

[Laelth]

146. Thanks for the k&r!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Jcrowley]

137. k & R

[Laelth]

152. Thanks for the k&r!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[majorjohn]

139. Must Be Impeached!

+ Cheney.

Rummy + Condi has to be tried!

[Laelth]

140. Welcome to DU!

n/t

:patriot:

-Laelth

[stepnw1f]

143. Impeach!

[2008]

145. k & r (nt)

[Laelth]

153. Thanks for the k&r

This has been a tough fight here, today. I've needed the support.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[meuniermr]

149. 1st K&R for my sn!!

:yourock:

[Laelth]

150. Thanks!

:toast:

:patriot:

-Laelth

[casus belli]

154. Yes the people did vote for change.

Not chaos. Impeachement hearings will embroil this country in a form of civil war. It will divide the country evenly in two and ultimately will accomplish NOTHING except moving him from office. It is not a criminal trial. Meanwhile, the Republicans say, "We told you their only agenda is 'hate Bush', do we really want 4 more years of that?", after which we become a minority party for the next 30 years.

CHANGE. Not WASTING TIME. And besides, it isn't new. Republicans called shotgun on the impeachment train. So let's spend our first two historic years acting JUST LIKE THEM.

Good plan. Not.

[Laelth]

155. Waste of time?

I hope I never consider standing up for the Constitution of the United States of America to be a "waste of time."

I hope I never consider resisting fascism a "waste of time."

I hope I never have to tell the families of soldiers who perished in a senseless war that to indict the people who sent them off to die would be a "waste of time."

You have got to be kidding me.

I simply cannot believe I am hearing this argument here, of all places. Standing up for what is right is never a "waste of time." Who cares if we can convict him before Nov. 2008? People want justice, and they want it now. Justice may not work conveniently on our electoral calendar, but what's more important, really?

... in utter frustration ...

-Laelth



Please, forgive the repost from another thread.

[casus belli]

156. Yes, waste of time.

2/3 needed to proceed on impeachment hearings - won't happen

2 years spent investigating (which we will do anyway) and transitioning power = fulfilling not a single promise to the Americans who elected us to bring about change

And to accomplish what? Removal of the man from office and he still gets a lifelong pension at the American people's expense. Since impeachment hearings are not criminal charges, he gets on a taxpayer powered jet and flies home to the ranch to plan how to frame Democrats as the revenge party with leaders from the GOP. After which the American people, who are bitter for what they perceive to be a waste of their taxpayer dollars, sweep Democrats from leadership again and we find ourselves at the bottom trying to climb just to gain lost ground.

Then there is always this. There is absolutely ZERO chance for us to prove he knowingly deceived the public. There is no smoking gun that would prove he wasn't mislead by intelligence. Now you and I know that isn't true, and of course he knew, but PROVING it is something altogether different.

Waste. Of. Time.

[Laelth]

157. He doesn't need to be convicted.

Impeachment and a public trial in the Senate would be enough. Standing up for justice, for truth, and for the Constitution is never a waste of time.

On this, it seems, we must agree to disagree.

-Laelth

[casus belli]

158. That's what the investigations are for.

I don't see this as a disagreement. We both want Bush exposed. Investigations will do that. And if they do it well enough, an even better outcome than impeachment is inevitable, criminal prosecution.

Impeachment is a joke. It's a sham. It's getting "kicked out of the fraternity", but getting to keep your letters. And above all else, is the importance of how all this will be perceived by the American people. If we want to change the landscape of government, we have to continue to have progressives elected. If we squander our first two years of influence on a partisan parade with no tangible penalty to Bush as an outcome, then we have squandered our chances for ensuring that no Republican is ever elected to a high office again.

Impeachment is short sighted. Do we protect the Constitution, perhaps. As long as we are in power, we pay respect to the process. But if we ruin our image and our credibility before the American people, then they simply reinstall Republicans in power and we are back to defending the Constitution in a far more literal sense. They nearly got away with watering down our rights so as to make them virtually unrecognizable. If we truly want to protect the Constitution, we must ensure that they NEVER make it back into power. Impeachment does nothing to achieve that goal.

[Laelth]

162. Never make it back into power?

I'm no fan of a one-party system. I look forward to the day when the Democratic party is the more conservative one, and I can vote for another party to the left of the Democrats and not have to hold my nose when I vote.

If we don't squash these Republicans that have executive power now (the neo-cons), they'll come back.

Here's a nice list of Bush's impeachable crimes:

The President's High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

1. "A Crime Against Peace." Initiating a war of aggression against a nation that posed no immediate threat to the U.S.--a war that has needlessly killed 2550 Americans and maimed and damaged over 20,000 more, while killing over 100,000 innocent Iraqi men, women and children, is the number one war crime according to the Nuremberg Charter, a document which was largely drawn up by American lawyers after World War II.

2. Lying and organizing a conspiracy to trick the American people and the U.S. Congress into approving an unnecessary and illegal war. This is defined as "A Conspiracy to Commit a Crime Against Peace" in the Nuremberg Charter, to which the U.S. is a signatory.

3. Approving and encouraging, in violation of U.S. and international law, the use of torture, kidnapping and rendering of prisoners of war captured in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the course of the so-called War on Terror. Note that the Hamdan decision actually declares Bush to have violated the Third Geneva Convention on Treatment of Prisoners of War, which means the justices are in effect calling the president a war criminal. Under U.S. and international law, if prisoners have died because of such a violation--and many have died in illegal US captivity because of torture authorized by this president--the penalty is death (a point made to the president in a warning memo written by his then White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, the text of which is published in full in the appendix of our book).

4. Illegally stripping the right of citizenship and the protections of the Constitution from American citizens, denying them the fundamental right to have their cases heard in a court, to hear the charges against them, to be judged in a public court by a jury of their peers, and to have access to a lawyer.

5. Authorizing the spying on American citizens and their communications by the National Security Agency and other U.S. police and intelligence agencies, in violation of the First and Fourth Amendments and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

6. Obstructing investigation into and covering up knowledge of the deliberate exposing of the identity of a U.S. CIA undercover operative, and possibly conspiring in that initial outing itself.

7. Obstructing the investigation into the 9-11 attacks and lying to investigators from the Congress and the bi-partisan 9-11 Commission--actions that come perilously close to treason. (Former Florida Senator Bob Graham, who headed the Senate Intelligence Committee until his retirement at the end of 2002, has called this the president's most impeachable crime.)

8. Violating the due process and other constitutional rights of thousands of citizens and legal residents by rounding them up and disappearing or deporting them without hearings.

9. Abuse of power, undermining of the Constitution and violating the presidential oath of office by deliberately refusing to administer over 750 acts duly passed into law by the Congress--actions with if left unchallenged would make the Congress a vestigial body, and the president a dictator.

10. Criminal negligence in failing to provide American troops with adequate armor before sending them into a war of choice, criminal negligence in going to war against a weak, third-world nation without any planning for post war occupation and reconstruction, criminal negligence in failing to respond to a known and growing crisis in the storm-blasted city of New Orleans, and criminal negligence in failing to act, and in fact in actively obstructing efforts by other countries and American state governments, to deal with the looming crisis of global warming.

shamelessly copied from another DU thread

Is that not enough to warrant impeachment? Is it a waste of time to go after Bush for that?

-Laelth

[Hawkowl]

159. Honor demands it

After all the investigations will turn up. The lying. The fraud. The profiteering. The bribery. The spying. The false imprisonments. The TORTURE. Congress will have no choice but to impeach, or be accessories after the fact.

[Norrin Radd]

161. k and r.

n/t

[Pooka Fey]

163. I agree. K&R

[tommcintyre]

165. National Groups Announce Movement for Impeachment

Now the masses will be mobilized.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2671967

[Laelth]

168. Cool.

Here's a better link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x245284 (one that doesn't jump four times before getting to the content)

Thanks!

:patriot:

-Laelth