Why I'm NOT Leaving DU (Unless Skinner Says So)

[CorpGovActivist]

I read - and respect the philosophical impulse of - the thread posted here a short while ago by someone who sounds like he'd be a good person to know. I'll shoot that guy an e-mail, and see if we can't strike up a conversation based on shared values and shared interests.

Like that poster, I don't like surrounding myself with only like-minded folks. I like to be challenged. If "cultural more of the same" was what I was after, I would have accepted the cushy full ride to William & Mary, rather than busting my ass working up to three jobs each semester at Harvard. Stretching my cultural boundaries was important to me at 18, coming from the coal fields of West Virginia. It's important to me still at 34.

So, unless Skinner or the other fine founders, admins, and moderators of the group say I must go, I would like to apply for political asylum here. But that other poster has a point: the Founders didn't self-segregate into airtight camps when they wrote the Declaration of Independence, botched the Articles of Confederation, or did a re-write with the Constitution. They engaged with one another, fought fiercely, and drank afterwards.

There are plenty of philosophical reasons - deeply held, and too numerous to list out - that underpin my desire to stay. I will, however, cite to one and only one: George Washington's Farewell Address, in which he urged his fellow citizens to steer clear of the emerging factionalism of his day: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=george+washington+farewell+address (search on "faction")

I cited the Farewell Address in an SEC filing on October 3rd, titled, shameonvirginiasenators: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1269476/000126947606000011/0001269476-06-000011-index.htm

DU is not an "underground" anymore. Like the abolitionists who ran the Underground Railroad, those who created, nurtured, fostered, and ran DU during the dark years now must decide how to build on the success - and whose hands are welcome to help do the building.

- Dave

P.S. It is "a well-known historical fact" that the other camp always knows the best post-debate watering holes you've not yet discovered. Pints, anyone?

[acmavm]

1. Okay, what brought this on?

[CorpGovActivist]

2. The Other Poster Had One Response...

... to the DU policy. I have another.

- Dave

[Der Blaue Engel]

4. Care to point us to this Other Post?

I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

[trumad]

5. scroll is a pretty neat feature...

;-)

[Der Blaue Engel]

23. So is the Latest page

where I spend most of my time. It wasn't there and hadn't been for over an hour. :)

[trumad]

37. Latest page is boring....

[CorpGovActivist]

7. This One...

... is the one I meant: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2656709&mesg_id=2656709

- Dave

[Der Blaue Engel]

24. Thanks

Clears things up.

[CorpGovActivist]

26. My Bad...

... I should have linked to it in the first place.

- Dave

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeFree]

10. Everyone is welcome, except....

Just don't go around posting rovian bs and you get to be someone on DU. Its that simple. Rove's minions are not welcome here.

[Lugnut]

3. Glad to hear it

I'm glad you're here, David. Thank you.

[CorpGovActivist]

8. How I Found DU...

... a progressive/liberal blogger and journalist who interviewed me in September led to my discovery of DU. I have been profoundly grateful for the sense of community.

- Dave

[enlightenment]

6. Thank you.

True democracy, like history, is a messy business.
Collectively, we are big enough - and certainly smart enough - to engage in reasoned and civil discourse and recognize the importance of differing opinions on the matters that concern us all.

I realize that the "d" in "Democratic Underground" is capitalized, suggesting the political party takes priority over the ideology; but in the end, it's that "little d" idea that is more important.

[CorpGovActivist]

11. It's a "Res Publica" After All

This "public thing" of ours is precious, and the original foundation layed by the Founders was poured by hands attached to minds as widely varied in their opinions as we are today.

- Dave

[itsmesgd]

9. I agree

This election was a big victory, but the war has yet to be won and many battles to be fought (Iraq, the economy, the environment, election reform, human rights, civil rights...). We should maintain this forum for the exchange of ideas, and as a rallying point. This election did not resolve all of the issues we face and therefore give us a reason to close up shop. We need to stay here (maybe just not the vast number of hours I spent this week and last).

[CorpGovActivist]

12. Doesn't Your Clock...

... have 36 hours in a day?

; )

- Dave

[DemReadingDU]

16. I'd like a 36 hour clock too!

lol!

:rofl:


edit to add: I'm glad you're here David, truly appreciate your knowledge and the ability to discuss on this forum. Thank you!

[CorpGovActivist]

19. One of My Favorite Wall Posters...

... lists out a bunch of incredibly effective people, with a caption that says something like, "They only had 24 hours in each day, too, you know."

- Dave

[Cameron27]

13. I'm glad you're here...

only a matter of time before you put a big D next to your name ;-)

BTW, did you connect with any news people yesterday?

[CorpGovActivist]

17. If My Family...

... can't get me to change my party registration, you're going to have to draw the same comfort they do: I don't cast uninformed ballots, and I find myself voting my actual vote for the D more often than not. In the final analysis, that's what counts in races like Webb's, right?

; )

"BTW, did you connect with any news people yesterday?"

I did. Whether that helped them to start pushing another recount angle with Ed Gillespie or not, I have yet to find out for sure.

; )

- Dave

[Cameron27]

28. I know Dave, I was joking with you about the D,

I think you're great just the way you are (I hear music somewhere)

Let's hope the news media responds, my fingers are crossed.

[CorpGovActivist]

32. That D...

"I think you're great just the way you are (I hear music somewhere)"

:rofl:

I played the Star Wars suite on Election Day, to get fired up.

Still, I've gotten more static from friends and family about that D vs. R thing than I ever did about coming out.

"Let's hope the news media responds, my fingers are crossed."

I have no doubt that this is going to bear fruit. I really don't. That doesn't mean I'm sitting back and expecting the heavens to open, and for manna to pour down, but it does mean that - based on actual follow-up activity - I have a pretty good bead on the types of stories that are likely to break.

- Dave

[Baclava]

14. I'm not leaving because Skinner sends me free bagels every morning

I just assumed everyone else had the same deal.

[CorpGovActivist]

18. Teacher's Pet!

Seriously?!?

LOL.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

21. I'd Never Had a Bagel until College...

... and I've been making up for it ever since! They're like cream cheese delivery systems.

Seriously, I kid you not. I'd never had one. I also had no idea what the hell a "futon" was.

- Dave

[burythehatchet]

30. I hope you are aware that a bagel contains

the same amount of calories and carbs as 8 slices of bread. I used to eat two-a-day until my doc told how they were messing up my body.

[CorpGovActivist]

35. The Harvard Dietician and Me: True Story

During finals the first semester of my senior year, I was making it to breakfast in the dining hall with some regularity (unusual by then, as I'd learned the upperclassman art of bringing stuff back from dinnertime for a quick in-the-room breakfast the next morning).

The third or fourth morning in a row that I ordered 4 eggs "sunny side up," the dining hall dietician took a seat across the otherwise empty table from me, and proceeded to express concern about my choices. I had not had even one cup of coffee yet. She was taking her life into her own hands.

She rattled on and on about cholesterol, and arteries, and how a Harvard student's average lifespan was higher - due, she pointedly noted, to their better dietary choices.

I listened to her, in my pre-verbal, pre-caffeinated state, dipping my toast into the egg yolk, and chewing thoughtfully in response to her points.

When she finished, I answered, "I have Crohn's."

"Oh!" she said, and walked away. (My cholesterol numbers - both good and bad - are on the low side, which is pretty typical for those with the condition.)

The thing that I always wondered was - that part about the life expectancy thing: was she worried about me, or about my lifetime earnings capacity (and by extension, my lifetime donation capacity).

I need another cup of coffee, and pass me another bagel slathered in cream cheese, please.

- Dave

[burythehatchet]

38. well in that case

the best bagels are grilled with butter then slathered with veggie cream cheese.

enjoy :)

[CorpGovActivist]

41. Uh-Oh...

... if I learned one thing, it's not to discuss "best bagels" at the dining room table - especially with New Yorkers.

:rofl:

I was a stranger in a strange land during those conversations. It was just fun to sit back and watch - chewing my bagel, and nodding along while theirs just sat there.

- Dave

[burythehatchet]

46. as they say...sex, religion and bagels...

[Baclava]

61. I was going to say 'free donuts' ...but thought better of it.

I am "genetically predispositioned" to life.

I'm enjoying mine right about now.

[kestrel91316]

66. Be sure to put some good lox on the bagel with the schmear.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. DU no longer underground?

Now there's a thought to ponder. And I was feeling so liberal chic!

[CorpGovActivist]

20. A True Non-Conformist...

... doesn't care about "chic," ya know!

:rofl:

- Dave

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. Well, I haven't been chic in 40 years

this was like my last chance, you know?

[CorpGovActivist]

54. You Can Always...

... have the gravesite that has the archaeologists saying, "What the hell?!?"

; )

- Dave

[spuddonna]

70. I don't believe that for a second!

Youse is one of da classiest broads I read posts from! :evilgrin:

:7 Have a beer on me! :beer:

[CorpGovActivist]

71. I Got the Sense...

... she was being modest!

Thanks for confirming!

- Dave

[stop the bleeding]

22. my 2 pennies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2656709&mesg_id=2657112

[CorpGovActivist]

25. Nicely Put...

... as usual.

- Dave

[mikeybabe125]

36. so you dont feel to bad...

I had no idea what the hell a futon was either until I hit college, Dave. So, it's obviously not just you :eyes:

[CorpGovActivist]

42. I Kept Thinking...

... "what the hell is a 'futon,' and why do I suddenly need one in college?!?"

There were signs for them everywhere during move-in week.

- Dave

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. What the mating netherworld is a "cushy full ride to William & Mary?" -nt

[CorpGovActivist]

29. That Would Be a Monroe Scholarship Offer

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=monroe+scholar+william+mary

- Dave

[democrank]

31. Read your post twice.

Like you, I appreciate the exchange of ideas...and like you, I didn`t accept any "cushy" rides. It was more like a desperate crawl with an emphasis on hard knocks. That helped shaped my old fashioned liberalism which I have held dear for many decades.

DUers are a motley crew. Many points of view, many different temperments. Some wear tinfoil hats, some wear Nam Vet hats, some have Birkenstocks, some steel-toed boots. We`re like a crazy quilt, each piece a distinctive shape, some flowery, some denim, some hate quilts. I like it that way.

DU did then and does now deserve its "underground" label. It`s a place Vietnam Vets can gather and safely express their heartbreak over the Iraq War without someone telling them they`re "helping the enemy." It`s a place where old hippies can express their concerns about global warming without being told they should burn Al Gore`s book. A place where fellow citizens can gather to discuss family issues: concern over a sick relative, a son gone off to war, a pink slip, a drinking problem. It`s a place where thousands zigged while the rest of the country zagged.

If one of our members needs help, many rally to lend support. On the other hand, I can nearly always find a variety of responses to most any political posting. We`re hardly all like-minded and that`s the beauty of it. We worked through a lot here at DU. It is the perfect underground for me. While many Americans were busy renaming French fries, we were here discussing foreign policy trends and the importance of diplomacy. We`ve had heated discussions at times and gratifying harmony at others.
It`s the "underground" part of DU that means the most to me.

[CorpGovActivist]

39. Post-War Abolitionists and Underground Bulbs

Have you read any of the biographies of the most notable abolitionists?

I understand that the "underground" part has resonance. DU wouldn't be DU without it. But the experiences of the abolitionist leaders after the Civil War may provide useful ideas. In short, when their activities no longer had to be run "underground," how did the most effective abolitionists seize those new tools and opportunities?

It was certainly not my intent to suggest that the "underground" aspects of DU should be abandoned. Rather, like an "underground" bulb, I think it has broken through to daylight, and will now shoot forth beautiful blades and bear wondrous fruit.

- Dave

[Ferret Annica]

40. Good post, and as a Green who is a forest activist

and who knows 9 11 was an inside job and that Bush and Cheney should be held accountable for their crimes, I agree with the spirit of your words.

This forum has an honorable name with a huge recognition factor. This forum and Smirking Chimp should never change their handles or how they operate other then to tweak minor aspects of the interface time to time.

[Fovea]

33. 'DU is not an "underground" anymore.'

So how 'bout we start calling it something like.
'Democratic Union'
'Democrats United'
or some such?

BTW, Thank you for staying. You are an important voice here.

[cascadiance]

34. I think we should wait for the MSM to become really fair and balanced...

before changing our underground moniker. We may have congress now, but there is still a lot of areas in society today where we are still "underground". It will be a while before we are "aboveground".

[CorpGovActivist]

44. No, No, Don't Change the Name: Honor It

I wouldn't want anyone to misunderstand. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that those who founded it change its name.

Think of it as an underground bulb, which spread deep roots - and which now has broken forth to sunshine and wind, to spread forth beautiful blades and bear wondrous fruit.

- Dave

[gully]

43. I think of DU as a support group. We are here to support the goals of

our collective community. And, if people don't wish to do so, they can find another group of people to "hang out with."

I like your posts, and I consider you valuable, but I also expect that those who wish to work against Democrats will either

1. LEAVE
2. BITE THE OL' TONGUE

[CorpGovActivist]

47. The Biting of Our Adversaries' Tongues...

... means the silence of our own synapses. It may well be that in the hearing of their argument, an epiphany occurs to us.

- Dave

[gully]

48. I don't need any right wing or nader-esque epiphanies.

I've heard all they have to say, and it's not enlightening. Nader and Limbaugh can chat over coffee and "enlighten" one another.

[CorpGovActivist]

50. No, I Mean Epiphanies That Are Effective Counterarguments...

... how can you win the hearts and minds of persuadable voters, if you don't have the "ace in the hole" counterargument?

How can you develop that "ace in the hole" counterargument, without hearing the argument?

- Dave

[gully]

51. I understand, but I don't feel that there is an argument we haven't heard.

eom

[CorpGovActivist]

53. Are There Still Ones Where...

... there isn't an ace in the hole counterargument?

If so, another listen to that particular argument is in order, to develop the effective counterargument for '08.

- Dave

[gully]

56. I think that's a good point.

But again, The counter arguments are not anything that won't be heard daily on Imus, Limbaugh, or Maher's shows.

I expect in the coming months we'll be hit thusly:

1. DEMS MUST IMPEACH!
2. DEMS ARE BEING SPITEFUL/ABUSING THEIR POWER!

We have a media that is largely anti-democrat - either via the left or the right.

I remember watching MSNBC and their idea of a democratic counterpoint was having a Nader supporter on who pissed and moaned about Democrats.

The media has hit the Dems from the left and right for so many years, we are quite adept at countering the propaganda from all sides. The dilemma is that we have to take it from both sides. We can't just counter ONE position.

[rman]

45. DU became underground when and because election 2000 was stolen

the guy who stole it is still in power and that election is still stolen, even though it is not acknowledged by officials (and they probably never will).

Nevertheless, i do support your staying here.

[FlaGranny]

49. Interestingly,

even though we ARE a Democratic site, we've had many conservative posters here in the past and I've never seen one of them tombstoned unless they became disruptive. Of course, most of them eventually do get booted sooner or later. In my experience, as long as the arguments are respectful and actually discuss the issue at hand, conservatives have been allowed to stay for a while.

[dalaigh lllama]

55. Why there is usually a knee-jerk reaction to the "Why I'm Leaving DU" posts

When you've been here long enough, you'll see that these crop up as frequently as the "Do you all realize you're misspelling 'moron'?" posts. Many times it's someone who's had their feelings hurt by someone's thoughtless post, followed by the "oh please stay" and "don't let the door hit you on the way out" responses. I've seen them often enough I usually give 'em a miss and move on. To me, leaving DU because of one or two posters would be like leaving town because someone was rude at the grocery store.

Skinner's rules are that we are here to promote progressive ideas. I've seen discussions and debates here on everything from soup to nuts, and what seems to get folks banned is not their position on an issue, but their rude defense of a rigid mindset that "disses" someone else because of their beliefs, gender, or race. At this time in history, about the only "conservative" values touted by the neocons are vaunted suppression of gays, women, and 'furriners.' What else do they have? Fiscal responsibility? Small government? States' rights?

The only other types of posters I've seen banned are ones like "Here's why I've voting straight Republican this year." After all, if that's how they feel, there are plenty of other places they can go. OTOH, I've seen threads discussing Barry Goldwater and praising him, and these weren't banned.

There aren't that many places one could go on the net in the past six years that were relatively troll-free, and DUers guard this site like a dog with a bone, some much more fiercely than others.

[CorpGovActivist]

57. I Had to Laugh...

... the dog with a bone picture you painted could be turned into mischief, in the hands of a good cartoonist.

; )

Nicely said, and I've found the vast majority of DUers are able to express differences of opinion respectfully.

- Dave

P.S. As my grandmother says, "If you ever find the 'perfect' church, don't join it." When I asked her what she meant by this, she replied, "You're not perfect, right? You'd ruin it."

[dalaigh lllama]

58. Heh!

There are as many different DUers as there are breeds of dogs, I'd say. The one commonality we all seemed to share was the fear that democracy had dwindled down to one last bone. After Tuesday, I'm hoping we can start rebuilding the skeleton.

[CorpGovActivist]

60. Fierce Ones...

... little ones, with big hearts and underbited lockjaws that won't quit, are among my favorites!

; )

- Dave

[philly_bob]

59. Fewer REFRESHes for DU. Joined Progressive Democrats site. Thx, Admins.

I am addicted to certain features of DU, especially STOCK MARKET WATCH and GREATEST page. But I'm resolved to reduce the number of visits. During the elections, I have been REFRESHing the GREATEST page as many as 20 times a day. I'm going to try to cut that number down.

I also joined the Progressive Democrats for America website and bookmarked their blog. Again, fewer refreshes, but I'm going to check it every day.

DU admins, you've done a great job!! You were at a key location in history. Hope you write up your memoirs. I'd love to read them.

[Autonomy]

63. I leave DU every day. Then I come back the next day.

If I ever went through the melodrama of posting that I was "leaving" DU, I would probably go back to lurking within a day or two, then create a new account and start posting again within a month. I bet it happens a fair bit.

It's one thing to "leave", but entirely another to never come back. And I don't really believe anyone can say with certainty they will never come back.

[Straight Shooter]

64. Did I not get enough sleep last night or something?

I'm sitting here feeling totally clueless as to what's going on. :freak:

Back to work, though. Maybe it will sink in later, after a re-read.

Whatever you decide, CGA, may the wind always be at your back, and the sunlight streaming on the path before you. :hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

72. Another Poster...

... posted a thread saying why he *was* leaving DU. I started this thread to articulate an alternative take.

The link to the other thread is upthread.

- Dave

[SmokingJacket]

65. The internet in GENERAL holds so much diversity of opinion...

There is no need for *every site* to be diverse. Heck, I don't go to a knitting site hoping for crochet tips.

Anyway, if DU didn't ban disruptors, it would have to deal with nonstop stupid from the Freepers.

[chefgirl]

69. LOL..Non stop stupid, exactly right.

I've been here since the very first day of DU..back before we even called the site DU. lol. It was always 'Democratic Underground'.

In the beginning, we were all so wounded and so fearful for our country that most of us ended up here because it was a place to lick our wounds.
It was inauguration day, 2001, and I can only remember two things about that day vividly. One was that I wanted to stick needles in my eyes watching the little idiot smirk and strut into the White House, and the other was a banner I saw waving above a crowd of people.

It said DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND.COM, and I felt like I had found a life line. I logged on immediately, created an account, and have been here virtually every day since.

The LAST thing anyone was interested in, back then, was having unending debates with the typical rabid Freeper type, coming here to gloat and slobber over their annointed hero.
Very shortly, after putting up with exactly that, the admins put new rules in place and started banning them as a matter of practice.

At first, I was kind of ambivalent about it...thought the same way as the OP here. Being DEMOCRATIC Underground, shouldnt it be open to all points of view, etc..?
After seeing what that can lead to, I fully agreed with the admins. and have never disagreed since.

In reality, if a RWer comes here without intention of disrupting OR, (more importantly) without intention of attempting to change our political stripes, they are more often than not, completely welcome and even respected and listened to, despite the rules.

To the OP: If you enjoy coming here, reading and even participating, I don't see any reason why you feel you should leave. If, however, you have some mission to fulfill, or some desire to challenge the progressive principles of this board and the people who populate it, then you're probably making the right choice.

-chef-

On edit: Now don't I feel non stop stupid? Forgot the title of the thread.
In which case, good choice, CorpGovActivist. :hi:

[ms liberty]

67. One of the reasons I love DU...

is that there is such a variety of opinion here, and such a variety of individuals.

[Burma Jones]

68. I've Googled my DU name a few times and have found a couple of instances

where Freeps and/or Conservative Underground types have said that I would be banned from DU or that I "make sense" to them or some other observation that suggests that I lack ideological purity.....

so, we have our disagreements, but I have never even been threatened with expulsion.....I have had a couple of threads locked...but those were in the lounge......