Someone please define "Moderate" and "Liberal" for me

[Matariki]

What do they mean, what actual policies are attached to each? If we're going to be arguing about these 'factions' of the Democratic party I think we should at least have some consensus on their meanings.

[MercutioATC]

1. Define "hot" and "warm"...

There are no objective definitions...it's all subjective.

[Matariki]

5. Okay - well can you at least tell me what people mean when they say

the 'moderate' faction of the party won the election - and so forth?

do you think 'moderate' is code for 'equal rights for everyone except gays'?

[warrens]

46. I'll take a stab

Liberal today means "left-leaning" and seems to include a lot of baggage (anti-gun, anti-smoking, etc.) that has nothing to do with the classic definition of liberal, which means, more or less, enlightened and progressive.

Moderate seems to mean more the classic definition of liberal. Liberals, historically, are only "left" in that the conservatives tended to be fascistic. Otherwise, liberals were often fairly right-wing, by our present definitions.

You can be a liberal and not support gay marriage, you know. Or gun control. Or even abortion rights. While I support some version of all three, I doubt I would pass a purity test from the left.

[Jamastiene]

82. That sounds about like it in a nutshell. n/t

[mmonk]

2. That's just it. Definitions are in flux.

That's what I've been asking so I know what I am. I used to be considered moderate. Now I'm considered by many as liberal. Some even paint me as a radical liberal. But then, every once in awhile I will even be called conservative. I get a little dizzy sometimes.

[Armstead]

8. Ditto -- The definitions have become perverted

I'm basically an old-fashioned moderate liberal. But today that makes me a member of the "far-left fringe."

We have to reclaim the definisiotns of these terms. Moderate should not mean "surrender monkey" to the Corporate Oligarchs.

[Matariki]

10. Forget about defining the terms

what are the policies that exemplify each term?

[JJ]

3. A moderate is a liberal...

who won't take his own side in an argument.;-)

[Cassandra]

4. Liberal is anything to the left of Attila the Hun....

according to the GOP. Moderate.....who knows. I used to consider myself a moderate but gave that up in frustration and am now just a liberal who likes a sensible fiscal policy.

[Burma Jones]

6. A Moderate is a Liberal with Money

half joking......

[seabeyond]

14. half funny ... wink n/t

[oc2002]

7. Moderate = DLC republican lite / Liberal = Real Democrats.

which the media, the DLC paint as extremists.

[Clark2008]

13. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. NO!!!!!

One can be a moderate and NOT be a corporate whore.

Webb, Tester, Obama, Murtha, for example, are moderates but are NOT DLCers.

[Matariki]

17. Okay, WHAT is it that makes you call them moderate?

what in their policies distinguishes them from 'liberals'?

[seabeyond]

22. i am moderate... pro business, still dont believe in sending our jobs

overseas, not pay our labor, nor receive 200% profit return for fat cats.

do i then become liberal cause i dont agree with dlc agenda

[Matariki]

26. Do you call yourself 'moderate' because you are pro-business?

Do you mean the liberals are not - maybe leanign more towards socialism or something? I guess that makes sense. So liberals would want to restrict and/or tax businesses more than a moderate would?

[seabeyond]

29. i find the liberal extreme isnt empathitic to a business owner

more pro employee without looking at the whole picture.

edit: maybe. i have found often when talking corporation it is ALL business, ALL owners being wrapped in the same blanket as a corp ceo money bag dude.... but that doesnt have to necessarily be a liberal that is talking since they dont identify their leanings prior to the bashing of business owners.... so i cant say it is the far left per se. but the identification toward a more socialist society would suggest that

[Matariki]

44. i was at a democratic caucus once where we were voting on party platforms

A couple of folks were arguing for 100% taxation of any income above $200,000 (this was back in the 80's). I think those are the folks you're talking about. I'd hate for them to be the definition of 'Liberal'.

[seabeyond]

48. no i am not talking 100% tax and two decades ago. i am not talking

the socialist.

but this is the point. how do you define. ??? some have pretty sharp, black and white means. like, moderates sell out, .... liberals keep em honest.

wow

[seabeyond]

76. An example just hapen to present itself

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2671945

not that $10 is a bad idea, but... there is way more to it than a bunch of fat cat ceo millionaires. the majority of minimum wage payers are small business and are hoping door stay open until next year.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. Reagardless Of Your Political Orientation That Makes No Sense

A prudent person would stop working when their income reached $200,000.00


I'll allow there are folks that will work for free but I don't think there's a lot of them.

[KittyWampus]

9. Moderate= Poopiehead and Liberal= Cool

[Matariki]

12. LOL - but really it's a serious question

I'm wondering if moderate doesn't actually mean a restiction of some people's rights - all for a 'well meaning cause' of course. For instance America isn't ready for a female - or black president, or ready for gay marriage, or 'we need to compromise on abortion rights', and so forth.

What policies define 'moderate'?

[seabeyond]

24. moderate = reasoned and liberal = illusional

we can play this game all day long

[porphyrian]

11. The problem is that the meanings differ according to who is making the distinction.

A big problem has been the pull to the right the entire country has experienced since reagan got elected. Conservative Democrats like to think of themselves as "moderate," although that is often an exaggeration as they might accept right wing policies, such as opposition to gay marriage. These people like to call any Democrats that disagree with them "liberals" or the "loony left," attempting to distance themselves from the Democratic base by pushing further to the right. The republicans have successfully manipulated the public perception of the word "liberal" to mean something negative, so when they use it, it is nearly profanity. There is also a distinction between "liberal" and "Liberal," as the latter refers to a specific group (that is clergy-related, I think).

[oc2002]

19. agreed. That the word liberal is redefined as a bad thing by the right.

nt.

[patrice]

25. Good point about "moderates" who identify with extreme positions such as

violating the Civil Rights of Homosexuals and Lesbians.

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. And to further muddy the waters, let us not forget that even the

most conservative republican who believes in our democratic system is a liberal, as democracy is a liberal concept.

Of course we have seen, by their actions, that there are many, including the reigning president, who don't really believe in the democratic system - those who prefer theocracy or oligarchy tend to cluster in republican circles. That does not make them conservative any more than a Maoist can be considered a liberal.

[porphyrian]

43. That's a good point. One of the effects of a two-party system...

...is a lot of differently shaped pegs get forced into one of two holes they don't fit.

[Selatius]

15. It is difficult to define the two without external reference points.

Moderate could be somebody who is center-right to center-left, and liberal could be somebody who is center-right all the way to far left.

The economic discourse in the US has become a discourse between centrists and far-rightists, and the social discourse is between authoritarian and authoritarian-lite.

I generally use two lines:

1. Authoritarian/Libertarian:

Pure Libertarian <---|---> Pure Authoritarian

2. Collectivist/Capitalist

Pure Collectivism <---|---> Pure Capitalism

In America, the economic discourse takes place at the mid-point and rightward. The "relative middle" in that case leans towards Capitalism. On social issues, the "relative middle" tends to lean towards authoritarianism. People are deciding whether or not to strip away rights from gays instead of talking about accomodating gays and making them feel accepted as human beings.

[patrice]

16. Conservative is Exclusive. That which is Liberal is Inclusive.

Liberality Includes (almost) everyone, even ***honest*** Conservatives, even though, as Conservatives, they are Exclusive.

This is what makes Liberal better than Conservative.

[WI_DEM]

18. John F. Kennedy was a moderate dem, Edward Kennedy is a liberal

Two great democrats. We need moderates and we need liberals.

[Matariki]

23. Again, what in their policies makes that distinction for you?

[Hippo_Tron]

38. John Kennedy governed in a completely different era

Kennedy cut taxes for the rich from 90% to 70% for the rich. Today the rich pay 35% and significantly less for capital gains. Anyone advocating a 70% tax rate for the rich today would be called a Communist by the Republicans and the media.

But I'll agree that his Bobby Kennedy when he was running for President in 1968 was much more of a liberal in many regards than his brother had been. That said, I don't think that we ever got to fully realize the full extent of President Kennedy's ideology because he was assassinated very soon after he jumped on board with the civil rights movement.

And while evidence suggests that he would've gone into Vietnam just like Johnson, we don't know for sure. He certainly kept a cool head during the Cuban Missle Crisis which makes me think he might've given a second thought about what he was getting into.

[Hippo_Tron]

39. John Kennedy governed in a completely different era

Kennedy cut taxes for the rich from 90% to 70% for the rich. Today the rich pay 35% and significantly less for capital gains. Anyone advocating a 70% tax rate for the rich today would be called a Communist by the Republicans and the media.

But I'll agree that his Bobby Kennedy when he was running for President in 1968 was much more of a liberal in many regards than his brother had been. That said, I don't think that we ever got to fully realize the full extent of President Kennedy's ideology because he was assassinated very soon after he jumped on board with the civil rights movement.

And while evidence suggests that he would've gone into Vietnam just like Johnson, we don't know for sure. He certainly kept a cool head during the Cuban Missle Crisis which makes me think he might've given a second thought about what he was getting into.

[patrice]

20. Moderate neither Excludes nor Includes and has no inclination to do either.

[seabeyond]

28. this is the closest i have heard yet

[patrice]

31. I don't think it means that they are necessarily passive, though.

[seabeyond]

33. absolutely, i have never been passive a day of my life. lol

but i hear what you are saying here.

[patrice]

42. Can Exclude or Include. It's a matter of pro-active control for a Moderate.

To keep the dialectic alive by strategically integrating Exclusion and Inclusion, somewhere ahead of the curve in order to avoid all of the traffic.

[seabeyond]

49. how i took it

the right and the religious right are absolutely and clearly about exclusion to the deterement of society ..

the liberal is mandatorially inclusive to the determent of the individual

the moderate is neither. wink

[patrice]

68. Moderate isn't Necessarily Either, Exclusive nor Inclusive, but at least

potentially, if not actually, Both . . . . and Neither? - also neither Ex. or Inc., because Moderate is also not Reactionary, but Active and more Creative and Proactively focused on "third+ element(s)", inclusive of alternative hypotheses and rationally empirical syntheses, the antipodes of the Reactionary Aggressively Exclusive "Conservative".

[readmoreoften]

73. Yes, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what it actually means.

Which is nothing. Moderate means-- "Please don't hate me. I'm fancy myself to be a reasonable person"

The true is that we are so far to the right of the economic spectrum and so far to the north of the political compass (towards totalitarianism) that no one can claim the center anymore because the center is lost.


If "moderate" dem means anything in practice since 2004, it means "pragmatic" dem, as in "sacrifice whatever needs to be sacrificed in order to retain a majority." In other words: compromise on abortion, compromise on Iraq, compromise on civil liberties, hide gay people completely (call it a compromise), and really try to appeal to conservative christian voters no matter what the cost.

[seabeyond]

87. your definition of pragmatic is not correct, it is made up. pragmatic is

dealing with facts or actual occurences. pratical. my father called me pragmatic once. as if it was an inslt. i looked it up and thought, ya, ok.... i can go with that. i would like for our govt to AT LEAST deal with fact.... i d not see that as a bad thing. so accuse me of pragmatic and i will say, ok

[messiah]

21. Definitions don't change but new speak does.

((Left - Democratic Socialism)) ((Moderate - R. Feingold/D. Kucinich)) ((Conservative H. Clinton)) ((Fascist - G. Bush Jr))

Hillary Clinton is to the right of Canada's Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

[BuyingThyme]

27. Liberalism is the politics of truth and justice.

Moderates pretend to be interested in truth and justice sometimes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. moderate: no support for gay marriage. pro choice but apologetically.

implementation of some social programs but no overhaul of welfare/health insurance...

etc

[Horse with no Name]

32. My definition of moderate and liberal?

A Liberal isn't willing to concede positions--for example abortion, gay rights, civil rights, etc.
A Moderate is willing to reach across the aisle and sell anyone out if it betters their position.

[Matariki]

34. so gay & civil rights are simply 'positions' to be compromised?

that is very convenient for the people who already have those rights.

or edit: (sorry, i misread your post at first)

[Horse with no Name]

36. Exactly

Which is why gays got fucked over in this election.

[seabeyond]

37. with your definition can i say.... a liberal is all or nothing

will cut off nose to spite face, will do without if it isnt exactly as demanded

whereas the moderate is willing to take baby steps to ultimate goal, progressively accomplishing and succeeding

?

[Horse with no Name]

40. It's not that simple

Yet it is.
Basic human rights should never be sacrificed for a vote.
Yet they are.
Liberals keep moderates honest. We are the weight that keeps pulling the moderates back to the center when they drift to the right too far.

[seabeyond]

45. you made it that simple to diss moderates. but lets go for what you are

saying now. could moderates also be the ones to keep the extreme liberal (because moderates are liberals, just not as far left) from sittin in their own shit, allowing them to move forward....

saying, could the moderate benefit the further left a much as the further left benefits the moderate?

[Horse with no Name]

47. I wasn't dissing you

You are one of my favorite moderates.:hug:
However, you take it to the other side, which is as correct as my example.
We complement each other. Without each side...we would just be Republicans.:shudder:

[seabeyond]

50. aaaaahhhhh and see

you are one of mine. lol lol. funny and in giggle

on edit: THIS is the DEMCRATIC PARTY. herdng cats

[uppityperson]

41. "liberal" is what you call someone to insult them.

These terms are vague and can be used in many different ways. This is why arguing about them, calling different groups by these names is so silly. To copy a post I made last night:

Liberal, right, left, conservative, center, who defines them?

Most people want affordable food, shelter, belongings, healthcare, jobs, safety for their family and friends, education. Does this make them left, right, conservative, liberal, nonconservative, righteous, what?

Seems better to define by policies rather than subjective definitions. Where should resources go? Schools or roads? Screening air cargo or Hummers for military? Supervisors or workers? Resources are limited, and deciding what to do with them seems a big factor in everything. Also rights and freedoms and limitations. Abortion, speech, guns, assembly, religion, equal rights dues to (pick a classification) schools are examples of these.

[Matariki]

51. Thank you - this is what i was trying to get at in a round about way

I suspected that an attempt to define the words would break down and it would become obvious that they have little real meaning.

I absolutely agree that we need to focus the discussion on policy and not on labels. I've seen too many news pundits in the last 24 hours (and some threads in DU) saying that the 'moderate (or conservative faction)' of the Democratic party won this election. I suspect that it's a way to dismiss Progressive policy - and 'stay the course' as it were.

[seabeyond]

55. but then this is a whole new angle from you op

and after the interesting discussion, (because i enjoyed it as you can see... this time of reflection on who we are) after reading this post.... abslutely it is to dismiss the liberal party... democratic party as a whole, truth be known. it is to shift the meaning of the whole election to "acceptable" to continue the corruption and direction this country has been taken

[Matariki]

56. huh? I don't understand your post

"abslutely it is to dismiss the liberal party... democratic party as a whole, truth be known. it is to shift the meaning of the whole election to "acceptable" to continue the corruption and direction this country has been taken"

- what are you saying here? on edit: i apologize, i'm not trying to be rude, i actually don't understand that paragraph. would you mind clarifying?

I'm not taking a new angle from my op. I asked for definitions of those two terms. People have made some good points, from various 'sides'. My own personal take on it is that those words are very subjective, like all labels are, and therefore not very productive in communicating what the Democratic party stands for. I think it would be more productive to discuss specific policies.

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. On the contrary, labels are important if you want to know who your

friends are.

Progressives want all those things for all people. Conservatives believe those things are priviledges to be granted to the right people. Liberals confront conservatives. Moderates think they can cooperate with conservatives - and continue to think so no matter how many times they get screwed by them.

Liberals and conservatives alike have the courage of their convictions. Moderates settle for the courage of someone else's convictions.

[seabeyond]

86. you are wrong

or..... as an example a socialist rule on commerce. the liberal may feel that running a business should be taken away from the owner or have no owner so the pie is divided up equally, where as the republican may feel that owner should have no rule from govt to run as they chose even if it means slave labor rule. whereas the moderate is looking for win win win. good for the customer, good for labor, good for employer behooves all of us as a nations to excede and progress and be healthy as a whole

that is not lacking conviction, at all. it is a balance, for all....

[ecstatic]

52. I'm a moderate liberal and I think Howard Dean embodies that principle nt

[patrice]

74. Yes he does! That's one of the many reasons I like him.

[Iris]

79. why do you think that?

I mean, a thread like this begs an explanation. What positions does he have that make him moderate?

[Rosemary2205]

53. They SHOULD be synonymous.

IMHO a moderate is someone who believes government has a limited role in improving the social welfare of the population. Which IMHO defines most, if not all liberals and many who call themselves conservatives (which, when gays and abortion are yanked out of the equation are nearly always liberal).

Unfortunately, the ultra wealthy right wing has helped redefine "liberal" into a group that supposedly things government is the ONLY answer to social welfare problems and individuals have no rights. Out of fear that they would be required to participate in social and economic justice.

In addition, thanks to the greediest of ultra wealthy on the right, conservative has come to be synonymous with greed and fascism.

However, in truth, if you look at the populace, real Americans, nearly of them are actually liberal/moderate.

[seabeyond]

54. my father says i am an extreme liberal, brother says liberal from hell

my kids and nieces and nephews say i am a hippie. i am christian, conservative and live a traditional role and stay out of others choices they make in life, confident they are able to run their life better than i. knowing i do me better than you do me. i have voted different parties, per person running and how i thought they would effect the country per what i felt the countries needs were at the time

who am i

am i one to extend olive branch, or receive



* this is from another thread i posted on, reaching olive branch to the moderate dem. this is my issue with the whole deciding who is what. i am all for going after what emmual is saying and trying to do.... i think dean does the same thing only healthier for all as a society and for us as a party. kerry too. and wes clark. and many others

[0rganism]

57. As always, Steve Kangas' Liberalism Resurgent to the rescue

Short FAQ on Liberalism - http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/ShortFAQ.htm

You'll find this to be far more satisfying, definitionally, than the one-liners proferred by corporate-sponsored pundits.

[Iris]

80. Thanks for posting this.

I bookmarked it so I could look at it later. Looks interesting!

[mentalsolstice]

58. Too subjective to answer

Some can be radically liberal on some issues, yet lean more to the center on other issues...I feel it all has to do with where you are in life. Liberal or moderate, it's never static. I agree with another poster, that liberal means (to me) being enlightened, educated (not in the formal sense), progressive...and most importantly tolerant. It definitely means being evolved in not giving in to knee-jerk reactions.

My friends and family think I'm radically liberal (according to their definition of it, not mine), but I live in the south. A northerner may not think I'm liberal at all. In fact, I was recently accused of such by an acquaintance when I stated that I was against the death penalty not only because of the usual arguments, such as it not being fairly assigned to minorities, but because I'm also against it for religious reasons. Which means I'm always against it, no matter if we were able to clean up systemic injustices. Well, I was pretty much lectured and chided for close to an hour for letting my religious beliefs govern how I felt about a public policy, and therefore I couldn't truly be a liberal. Whereas, I feel the reason why I "strive" to be liberal, is because of my intense circumspection about my religion and it leads me to that end of the political spectrum. To me it's all a journey and how I get to the destination may be different from how you do. Hence, the disagreements within party lines.

[Javaman]

59. A moderate smokes pot in the bedroom quietly...

A liberal smokes it on the back porch. LOL

[TallahasseeGrannie]

60. I think today a moderate

is pragmatic and a liberal more idealistic. We could argue the semantics all day. Some say moderates sell out. Others say moderates compromise and make progress.

I consider myself a moderate. One of the qualities that makes me moderate is an understanding of human nature. There are very few saints in the world and happily, very few truly evil people. I don't believe an "R" by a name on a voting card qualifies one for the latter category. There are simply certain emotions and characteristics that are HUMAN and appear on both the left and the right. Among those are a love of power, a taste for revenge, bigotry and racism. These things have a different color on the right than they do on the left, but they still exist and pretty much, according to my observations in life, at similar levels. I think the useful bell curve applies here.

Frankly, I don't see the Democrats as "the Good Guys." There aren't any "good guys." That's an illusion. I just think the policies make more sense and follow my world view more closely. So that's where I put my support.

[ourbluenation]

61. Moderates=open to compromise Liberals= my way or the highway

+

[patrice]

69. Conservatives are "My way or else!!"

Others are secondary to me, because I'm Right and you're Wrong.

Real Liberals are comfortable with Inclusive Complexity. They're good team players.

[VelmaD]

62. Here's a crazy thought...

why don't you go do some research for yourself instead of relying on the mostly flippant answers of your fellow DUers?

[Matariki]

63. speaking of flippant - your reply probably tops that dept.

One of the things that the Democratic party gets criticized for is 'not having a plan'. That obviously isn't true but we need to stop letting 'the right' define who we are. I want to draw attention to the fact that these labels mean little, and it's policy we need to be talking about - especially in terms of what we stand for.

[VelmaD]

65. Apparently I needed an irony emoticon

My comment wasn't directed at you so much as at some of the useless responses you've gotten so far.

[Matariki]

66. sorry - the 'do your own research' threw me

no offense taken :-)

[slaveplanet]

64. for example

Corruption prosecution: Liberals will define it as justice...Moderates will define it as revenge(as in we'll be havin none of that)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. "..moderation in principle is always a vice." - Tom Paine

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Tom Paine

A saying from the '60s

The Fascists will shoot you.
The Conservatives will applaud the Fascists.
The Moderates will watch the execution on TV.
The Liberals will cry over your grave and feel guilty for turning you in.

Phil Ochs, I think.

[Exiled in America]

70. It's not that hard to define:

There is a political spectrum. It is pliable, but still definable. You should take a test like one offered at political compass.com - its kind of a good example of figuring out whether you're political views put you more in the center or at a pole.



I for example am way, way down in that bottom left box. Here are where some others fit:

[Matariki]

71. compass.com sells office furniture

but i'm intrigued if you can find the link you meant

on edit: http://www.politicalcompass.org/questionnaire

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. I Have Taken The Test Several Times...

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77

[patrice]

72. Real Moderates are not Passive, not simply Reactive. They balance actively

competing complexities.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I Don't Like Labels.

But it's "comforting" to know that some here have the same contempt for moderates that Rush Limbaugh and the wignuts have, especially when they hold the keys to power.

[Jamastiene]

81. Liberals have solid values and know how we feel on the issues.

Liberals also support equal civil rights and basic decency toward ALL Americans.

Moderates may have a few liberal views, but for the most part sit on the fence and wait to be pandered to so they can claim victory no matter who wins an election.
Moderates also tend to be against civil rights that don't directly affect them, i.e. against hate crimes legislation, civil rights protections, etc.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. Hmmm

I'm pro affirmative action, nominally pro choice, and pro gay marriage and I'd march for all of them. I'm also pro NAFTA, pro GATT, pro liberal immigration policies, and pro free trade. I believe in free markets but I also believe in a robust social safety net for those who try and fail. I don't care how you get your medical treatment as long as you are not denied it because you can't afford it. I oppose the death penalty but I'm not going to any candle lit vigils when they give John Evander Coey the juice. I could go on...

I don't think labels or pigeonholing folks is helpful.

[Jamastiene]

85. You are all over the place.

but still would be classified as a liberal because of what you just said about gay marriage. That one issue will make someone call you a liberal every time. At least that is the way it is usually defined in political talking circles. :shrug:

[demokatgurrl]

88. Any politician (not regular folk) who calls themselves

a moderate is not one. That's my non-definition.

[depakid]

89. Moderate = right wing enabler

Simple as that.

So called "moderates" vote for things like the bankruptcy bill and the Medicare scam.