Fighting on DU? For the first time, I'm REALLY glad to see it.

[WilliamPitt]

Why?

Because it isn't just a bunch of people grinding their gears together with no real hope of having a voice in government. That's different now, massively so, and before January comes along, these are exactly the kinds of things that need to be hammered out.

What is the place of the base in this new scheme? Do we get a seat at the table?

Is impeachment a necessary or viable option, or is it suicide?

What should our opening agenda be?

These are fight-worthy because, for the very first time in the history of DU, we can figure some things out and then bend our collective will towards influencing our representatives, who are finally in a position to act wil force and effect.

So I say fight it out. Let's see where we are. We have about two months.

Fight it out, but with respect. :)

(edited for spelling)

[bigtree]

1. I've got a big ass board with a nail in it in my back pocket for Dem bashers

step right on up.

[izzie]

2. Impeachment is getting old. Lets just get the facts out.

Now I think Bush has done some pretty bad things but I think it is best they are out for all to see. This impeachment has just not got the kick it had at one time.

[itsmesgd]

5. exactly, get the facts out

and the rest will take care of itself. (by rest I mean impeachment)

he'll have no other option, run away or go to jail.

[derby378]

7. I'm willing to go this far...

Let the House and Senate convene investigations. Get Bush and Cheney to testify under oath no matter how much they whine about it.

If we can find enough legal grounds during the hearings to bring impeachment charges, then impeach, impeach, impeach.

But we do have to remember one key concept - Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Which is more than the Bush regime has alloted to some of its victims. We have to show Bush that the system can and does work.

[izzie]

17. Right on.

--

[ArmchairMeme]

26. Agree

[Laelth]

34. Innocent until proven guilty?

None of us calling for impeachment are saying anyone is guilty, necessarily. We certainly believe there are a lot of guilty Repukes out there. Specifically, an impeachment is a formal accusation and merely the beginning of the process. Only the Senate can decide guilt (i.e. convict an accused sitting President).

If you think those of us who want impeachment see that as a means of getting Bush out of office, I fear you miss the point. The point is not to remove Bush. We probably can't do that. No, the point is to show America and the world that the Democratic party is strong enough to fight against the Repukes and honest enough to fight FOR the Constitution.

Is that too much to ask?

-Laelth

[derby378]

40. I hear you...

And yes, I do want Bush out of office. But I want it done right. I don't want a repeat of Robespierre and the Reign of Terror in the US Congress - I want the rule of law upheld.

[AntiFascist]

47. Fair enough! n/t

[Laelth]

23. Bush MUST be impeached.

imho ...

See here for my reasoning (and that of many others): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2657058

But, to stay on topic ...

I couldn't agree more, WilliamPitt. We can have some real power and influence, now. It feels good. I think we all know that we're discussing the future of America and our party, and I hope we all see this process as a constructive exercise.

Cheers! :toast:

-Laelth

[ourbluenation]

3. I agree...it's delicious to be in this position for a change. n/t

[porphyrian]

4. I'll kick that. Hard. - n/t

[lapfog_1]

6. We can table this for now

and agree to have hearings and investigations.

No need to fight. I doubt many here would object to digging in and finding the truth.

Then we can debate impeachment.

And, btw, I *think* we do have influence in the halls of congress. 90,000 citizens, organized and united, and most of us campaign workers, volunteers, and CONTRIBUTORS... yeah, we got some clout.

[Karenina]

9. Impeachment is already off the table

and is falling s-l-o-w-l-y, ever so slowly onto THE FLOOR!!!! :rofl:

[Burma Jones]

8. You're the one that called Rahm a "doofus" based on the WaPo citing a "Secret meeting"

so, be respectful.

[trumad]

10. Rahm a "doofus

He is a fucking DINO doofus.

[WilliamPitt]

11. I meant be respectful to other DUers

So unless you're Rahm...

:)

[Graybeard]

21. Look pal, I saw you smack down a DUer...

...with a sledge hammer because he used the term
"sheeple". Get off your sanctimonious high horse. We
don't need any advice to be respectful.

[WilliamPitt]

27. Arr, Graybeard

My horse is neither sanctimonious nor high. What kind of bastard would give weed to a horse?

The term 'sheeple' is filthy. I reacted to disrespect with disrespect.

Arr. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. "sheeple" is pretty dumb.

Puns are the lowest form of comedy, and "sheeple" is a bad pun.

It's dumb for that reason alone.

And given recent history, it's obsolete anyway.

[Burma Jones]

22. nope, not me, I don't think Rahm wanders these halls.........

nevertheless, all we've seen is speculation thus far....and Pelosi and Reid trying to start off on a "Statesmanlike Foot" so, until I see actual caving on Judicial appointees, tax cuts for the hyper-wealthy, environmental legislation, corporate ownership of EVERYTHING and ending the complete bullshit we've spread all over the world, I'm willing to trust the folks that won.

Honestly, I don't think these are "liberal" issues, they're just plain common sense centrist issues. But then, I do wander these halls.

[Gwerlain]

12. Hey, I like that. Let's keep it in mind. K&R.

We really can make a difference.

[Catchawave]

13. Thank you :)

:toast: to the DU that is We now, more than ever!

[AlCzervik]

14. damn skippy.

[grizmaster]

15. rec #5

but as you say, let's keep the gloves on while "discussing" amongst ourselves.

[blm]

16. You would think the exit polls would clue everyone in about WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN

The anti-corruoption, open government wing of the Democratic party needs to step up and be BACKED UP so we can shut down the corruption in DC - especially BushInc.

[elehhhhna]

18. Good points. Let's not forget the ALERT button, though.

just saying

[Joe Chi Minh]

Congressman John Conyers and the other Dems will surely know

what to do and when.

[Joe Chi Minh]

19. Congressman John Conyers and the other Dems will surely know

what to do and when re impeachment.

[Javaman]

20. I know you are but what am I???

I'm rubber you're glue whatever bounces off of me...

aw forget it.

[theboss]

24. You need to have this move trademarked

You start a controversy by calling out the dogs on Emanuel (who, by the way, we should be parading through the streets right about now). And then you post a thread telling everyone why they should behave themselves.

In order, no, we don't really get a seat at the table. I'm not even sure who "we" are. I finally feel represented because of Webb, and I believe that I need to figure out a way to develop a relationship with that office. And I suddenly know a few people with an awful lot more power than they used to have. But I'm a schlub with a vote, and I recognize that the moderates/centrists who won formerly strong Republican seats have the most power now. Of course, I am a moderate/centrist from a Red State so maybe I do feel rather emboldened.

Impeachment would be political suicide for the Dems. The Public didn't want it in '98. They don't want it now. And they certainly didn't elect Heath Shuler among others to impeach anyone. And frankly, I'd rather have Bush as a weight around the necks of the Republicans in '08, rather than as a martyr.

Agenda:
1. Minimum wage.
2. Stem cells.
3. Investigation of pre-war intelligence.
4. Some sort of compromise based around the Baker-Hamilton Report.
5. Some sort of immigration plan.
6. Investigation into gas prices.

Progressive, practical, politically smart.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Behave?

I just advocated fighting. :)

(edited to be respectful :) )

[trumad]

30. The Public didn't want it in '98

Yeah!!!because it was about a fucking Blow Job! Are you comparing Bush and his cronies misdeeds to a Blow Job. Get real.

[Individualist]

38. The Constitution has priority over the public will,

and congressmen take an oath to uphold the Constitution.

[AntiFascist]

49. I have news for you, investigation of pre-war intelligence...

will likely lead to impeachment (or resignation), or else we are not a just nation.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

25. I will not push for impeachment...

As long as there is a chance of bringing him to the Hague!

Dick, too, if anyone can find him...

[Cleita]

29. Randi Rhodes just asked Sheila Jackson Lee if there was

going to be any oversight done on the administration. Sheila seemed to be backpeddling a bit to me when she lost her cell phone signal.

She made the comment that they were going to move forward not go backwards, but IMHO we can't move forward without investigating this unprecendented recent past that we have had.

There also has to be justice for all the dead Americans and war victims of these unjust wars.

[Pacifist Patriot]

35. I agree. Moving forward is predicated upon learning from past mistakes...

and ensuring accountability for the future.

[KoKo]

36. I'm hoping our Dems are going to "lay low" until they get themselves

installed and the Committee changes in place before they make any moves that would clue the Repugs into what they plan.

They have to know that they have an ANGRY Activist Base who has Faxed, Phoned and Signed Petitions for Six Years! Folks who've worked their butts off getting the lies of the Bushies out there for Six Years!

There's no way they don't know who we are. But, I'm going to try give them benefit of the doubt until sometime in Feb. '08 to see how they start to shape up.

I would imagine that some of them are still in shock just like some of us are. And, if they aren't then I'll don my :tinfoilhat: wondering how THEY knew what we didn't.

They haven't been in power in the House in over a decade so there's gonna be alot of scrabbling and juggling for power there. And, the Senate is so close we have to hope it doesn't go the way of Daschle's lame duck operation.

Black Caucus has already put out "pre-emptive strike" by saying that some of their members might be stripped of Committee Chairs...so it's going to be interesting watching how it sorts out in the next months.

I'm just so happy we have a voice....even though I still have to pinch myself thinking it will be snatched away somehow. I though Macaca would do it. But, he didn't. Repugs to scared "counting votes" would remind Dems of 2000 and stolen '04. :D They didn't want anyone dragging that up in front of the new Majority.

[DearAbby]

55. CHECKS AND BALANCES

I believe that is the reason Democrats were elected? CHECKS AND BALANCES..investigations into the events of the recent past is CHECKS part.

Seems they have to be reminded one of the reasons they were elected.

[uppityperson]

60. very much so. Keep on them about it also.

[rustydad]

31. Hemorrhaging

The real question is whether this opportunity for the Democrats to get back into the game of governing will be seized on by the Democrats or not. We as a country and as a planet are in peril in many ways. And as people we are often in denial. So, with a voice now, what should the Democrats put on our collective plates? The problems we face seem so daunting that even with new political power I question whether we have the will and ability to tackle these issues.

*Global Warming, a planet killer.
*Americas huge and growing national debt.
*Peak Oil and Natural Gas.
*Decline in food production midsts growing world population.
*Decline in fresh water resource, USA and world.
*Rapid decline in world fisheries.
*Decline in world specie due to pollution and GW.
*The continued threat of nuclear war sparked by resource competition.

Is that enough for our new leaders to have on the plate? Being in power is not enough, one must wisely govern and to govern wisely one must address the most important issues of life and death up front. Can we? Bob

[Autonomy]

37. Unfortunately

I doubt there's much we can do about those important problems without the presidency. Congressional oversight is probably not enough to enact new positions on issues in the international realm and the environment. Most of those policies are set by the executive branch and the executive regulatory agencies.

[robertpaulsen]

45. Thanks for highlighting some VERY important issues.

Fortunately, I believe we now have more sympathetic ears in Congress when we speak truth to power. The sooner we make everyone aware of these issues, the sooner we can start addressing solutions.

[EnviroBat]

32. My God people!

These traitors have committed atrocities against us for monetary gain. You and I have been beat down by these thugs, and now were talking Olive Branches? I want some God Damn accountability, and some criminal sentencing administered, or it WILL happen again in our lifetimes! We can't be soft on what's gone down these last few years. I'm still in shock over how close we came to losing our constitutional rights in this country. I will never forget this, and we should not allow the deeds of tyrants to go un-punished! Impeach, subpoena, glove slap across the face, I don't care, but why in the hell should we just sit here and "let bygones be bygones". I know that's what Jesus would do, unless you illegally wiretapped Jesus. Oh. let's just leave it to Karma...

No quarter for the wicked.

[Vincardog]

33. OK Will first Raise the Min wage. Then ban BBV. Then universal health care

Then Public financing of elections.
Then reinstate the ESTATE TAX on amounts over $5 MILLION.
Then put the money back into grants for education
Then fund and add power to the EPA
Then investigate the mis-administrations mis-deeds This starts with accounting for the monies (mis)spent in Iraq.
Then rescind the Faux "Free Trade" deals and renegotiate FAIR TRADE
Then do not extend the tax cuts for the rich
Then take the subsidies away form the energy companies and quit rewarding companies that export jobs.

[Canuckistanian]

39. No longer at the "kid's table"

This is "The Show"

[bigtree]

41. we built the 'big' table

time to reclaim it

[endarkenment]

42. To state the obvious, first get the Truth Out.

Stop talking about impeachment. It is putting the cart in front of the horse. The criminal cabal in the white house has done everything in secret and it is time that there was some congressional oversight of exactly what they have been up to, from Cheney's secret energy summit before 9-11 to the crap that went down as they took us to war in Iraq, and that is just for starters.

Once we actually have some real evidence of what they have done, then it would be appropriate to talk about what to do with that evidence.

[AntiFascist]

51. Impeachment involves an investigative process....

if we don't have a thorough process, as was done in Watergate, we are likely to have another Iran-Contra scenario where everything gets excused and swept under the rug. Too many people are just assuming that the Iran-Contra state-of-affairs is the status quo.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. "we can figure some things out and then bend our collective Will"

I'm not sure you'd like that! :silly:

[MoonRiver]

44. I'm still pinching myself!

Can this be real? I'm ready to rock and roll, but after all-these-years of banging head against brick wall, not really but it felt that way, I am still in awe about where we're at now.

:wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow:

Oh, and :loveya: DU, more than you will ever know.

[Nye Bevan]

46. We will look back on this time as a DU golden age of peace and love...

once the 2008 primary battles begin.

PS Clarke rules and Dean sucks.;-)

[Gwerlain]

50. lol, seeing the debate on impeachment, I can believe it.

I might go pull up some history and see what y'all were doin' when Dean and Kerry were fighting it out. 'Course, I'm not entirely certain I wanna know!!! Hee hee.

[FlaGranny]

52. This thread brings to mind

a couple of earlier posts today about folks not realizing that dissenting opinions are not allowed here, so they had to leave and go elsewhere. :rofl:

It's plenty of work fighting with each other without letting in "outsiders."

[about-time]

53. cool

[H2O Man]

54. It's a big party.

The democratic party has a wide range of people in it, from fairly conservative to very progressive. It should come as no surprise that DU reflects that. Thus, I agree with you that this discussion -- and even heated debate -- is a good thing. I think it is important for our elected officials and their aides to know that there is a growing number of activists at the grass roots level that are not satisfied with the "let's not rock the boat" attitude being expressed by the anti-impeachment forces. We are not interested in their framing of the discussion in a narrow and limited way. And we know our history.

[THUNDER HANDS]

56. I don't see what the fuss is about

It seems to me that both the liberals, moderates and conservatives in our party will all get their fair share of power. Some liberals head committees, some conservatives do and some moderates do. A big power share is inevitable and I think that's good for our party and the country.

I know that everyone here wants the liberals to dominate, but that's not going to happen. I don't see any one group dominating. I see the different groups handling different issues and working together when they can and disagreeing when they have to.

I don't see the big deal. Why would you assume that one group would weild power like they do in the GOP, which isn't as varied as ours?

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. Is impeachment a necessary or viable option?

There are at least three major investigations that are still ongoing. Plame, Abramoff and Halliburton. I expect in the coming months, we are going to start to learn the 'truth' about a lot of things.

We are the court of public opinion and BushCo is being tried in the court of public opinion. Congress won't be able to keep up with all that is about to unfold.

Most likely Bush will cut and run and both he and Cheney will resign long before they ever get anywhere near impeachment.

[immoderate]

58. Calling for impeachment now...

is like putting the cart before the horse has left the barn door station! :shrug:

We need sunlight! :) And when the sunlight is totally illuminating the naked emperor, it will be time to kiss the frog!

--IMM

[bleever]

59. Haiku:

When the spring sun shines,
The snow on the high branches
Knows which way to fall.