While the DLC takes control of DU, Democrats.com is doing something...

[AntiFascist]

On Saturday, Democrats.com and our progressive allies will launch a nationwide grassroots mobilization for impeachment in Philadelphia near Independence Hall, where the Constitution was signed on September 17, 1787. The mobilization is called ImpeachForChange. Our goals include:

1. A grassroots petition drive to collect 1 million signatures at ImpeachForChange.org
2. Form Impeachment Committees in all 435 Congressional Districts to lobby every Member of Congress by:
delivering books & videos on impeachment
collecting petitions and handwritten letters in front of their District Offices
meeting with every Member to discuss the issues that require impeachment
3. Expand our Citizens Impeachment Commission to add prominent citizens, celebrities and bloggers
4. 12/10 Bush v. Gore Day:
Hold Town Hall Meetings on impeachment around the country with Citizens Impeachment Commission speakers
5. 12/15-17 Bill of Rights Weekend:
Collect petitions and handwritten letters at malls, libraries, post offices, and door-to-door
Sell pocket Constitutions, bumper stickers, books, videos
6. 2007: Pass Impeachment bills in state legislatures

More details:
http://www.democrats.com/impeachforchange-plan

[williesgirl]

1. Investigations should be first w/proof, then decisions to impeach.

[ClassWarrior]

7. Of course they should. But meanwhile we, the American citizens...

...need to make sure IMPEACHMENT doesn't get taken off the table.

Visualize it.

NGU.

[shadowknows69]

70. I agree. I want it very much on the table and in their faces

It's the only language gangsters understand. Leverage.

[magellan]

9. That's the way impeachment works

Rep Conyers has already tabled an impeachment inquiry. The House must decide whether there's evidence there to warrant investigations. It doesn't go on to the Senate, which decides whether to impeach, unless there's enough proof to push it forward.

[longship]

17. How long do you think that will take?

Note that this is not a troll bait post. It's a serious question.

Nixon took 20 months between the initiation of formal investigation and the final adoption of impeachment articles. It's obvious that we don't have that much time.

I just don't see impeachment happening. It's not that I don't want it to happen. There's just not much time. Fourteen months from now we'll be into the 2008 Presidential campaign. Certainly we'd want to finish this before that time. Wouldn't we?

Maybe there's another strategy which would work better. These investigations will produce a lot of fever for the Republicans. If a special prosecutor or two starts looking into this, maybe all we have to do is keep ChimpCo in check and wait it out until Jan, 2009 when we can frog march them all out of the White House at the same time as Al Gore is moving in.

Just posting this for discussion.

I want ChimpCo impeached, but I don't see how it gets done in time.

[magellan]

23. You can impeach an official even after they leave office

The process is the important thing, not the end result or when it wraps up.

[liberaldemocrat7]

46. This effort will fail.

What clout does democrats.com exercise? So they get 1 million signatures.

Unless they apply pressure to impeach and convict bush and cheney this will go nowhere.

I have spoken to one of the people who run democrats.com in the past. they will not apply financial pressure to gop contributors for anything.

They will fail.

[AntiFascist]

53. That's an important point...

personally I wouldn't care if the officials are forced out of office during their terms, or whether they are forced to resign, the important part is bringing to light the alleged crimes. (Please note I'm using the term alleged!)

[HamdenRice]

74. No! You can't, and that's the point

Impeachment is not criminal prosecution. Impeachment is the means for removing an official from office. After they are impeached and removed from office, then they can be prosecuted. So if someone has already left office, he can't be impeached. But he can still be prosecuted.

Everyone seems to think that impeachment is the only means to hold the bush criminal cabal accountable and the only means to put them in jail, where they so richly deserve to be. It isn't.

[aquart]

2. Well, thanks for the slur.

[Redstone]

3. Thanks SO much for the insult. We all appreciate it.

Redstone

[Morgana LaFey]

32. Being associated with the DLC is an insult?

Not everyone here thinks so.

[Redstone]

35. The OP did intend it as such, even if we don't think it is.

Redstone

[AntiFascist]

63. That's right, I did intend it as such...

but only from an anti-war perspective, not as any sort of "slur".

[AntiFascist]

54. Spare me the histrionics...

between the various factions, it seems fairly clear that the DLC would favor non-impeachment.

[tomreedtoon]

67. Well, thanks for the Early Circular Firing Squad.

Now that Democrats have a bit of power, you've decided to start the in-fighting early. And this time, it's a game of "my genitals are longer and harder than yours." In other words, you're saying that if you don't start an impeachment attempt against Bush without any solid and popularly-accepted proof, RIGHT NOW, you're Karl Rove's bungboy.

I must admit, I wasn't expecting Democratic web sites to start attacking one another for percieved moral supremacy this early. But there it is. You'd think unity would continue long enough for...oh, let me think, some minor bit of joint progress like...um, I don't know...maybe ENDING THE WAR?

[AntiFascist]

69. No, that's not it....

the point of the material in the main post is to mobilize a grassroots effort so that people can make their feelings known to their representatives, and hopefully lobby them toward starting serious investigations. Regardless of what gets repetitively posted here on DU, I think this is also giving the Democrats enormous leverage over the Executive Branch and will ultimately result in ending the war early.

[Seen the light]

4. .

:popcorn:

[Kerrytravelers]

28. I'll bring the beer.

And a few eye rolls for good measure. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Bob Fertig doesn't impress me one bit.

[Trajan]

5. I once thought I had been invaded by the DLC too ....

But; it turned out to be my son sneaking through the window ....

Good thing I didnt shoot ... eh ? ....

[barb162]

38. hahahahaha

So what did you do to the kid?

Why was he sneaking in the window?

[Cha]

6. dlc is not taking control

of DU.

But, I love the work that Bob Ferkis and democrats.com do!

[AntiFascist]

12. I know, but for once one of my posts is being kicked

:evilgrin:

[Cha]

30. Yeah, that must be a good feeling..

I just had it happen to me in the New York forum. :evilgrin:

[nini]

8. I hate pompous shit like this

:puke:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rpannier]

11. I'm terribly sorry

that some of us would like comprehensive investigations.
Proof that crimes have been committed and what those crimes were.
Hearings, etc

Impeaching someone before those investigations and hearings is irresponsible.
Impeachment based on conjecture is undemocratic.
Impeachment just because we think we can is akin to the fascism of the republikkans in the late 90's.

[barb162]

33. Well-stated!

I sure won't be signing anything for this group. There are more important things to worry about and to FIX in this country and the world than to be screwing around with and wasting time on something like this.

[AntiFascist]

55. How would this be any differerent than Watergate?

This is a serious question. Many of us feel that there is more than plenty enough evidence to warrant further investigation. I'm all for investigation, whether or not it falls under the label of impeachment may be purely semantic or just a timing issue, but I do think the very seriousness of the alleged crimes involved should be made obvious to everyone so that there is no chance of anything being covered up or swept under the rug.

[sandnsea]

13. How about ending the war???

I thought that was the most important issue. Is it about Bush hatred or doing what needs to be done to save lives in Iraq.

This is how the left fucks up, over and over. A choice between being sensible and pragmatic and getting something done, or being easily marginalized radical ranters - the left always makes the wrong damned choice.

Stick with trying to end the war. The impeachment will come naturally.

[AntiFascist]

56. I disagree for these reasons:

There is a sizeable contingent of Democrats who are pro-war in Iraq, and some who want to continue our aggressions in the Middle East. Being anti-war is certainly not equivalent to being a Democrat. The DLC has aligned itself with this cause in the past. These people, I feel, are among those most likely NOT to favor impeachment because it would seriously question the leadership of the Commander in Chief.

An open investigation analyzing the evidence leading to war in Iraq might expose some of the (alleged) criminal machinery being used to prop up the war, and which may be leading to further wars in Iran and elsewhere. You don't believe that exposing this would have an effect on saving lives? I think it is a necessary first step.

[onehandle]

14. Whatever. nt

[Mr_Spock]

15. Bad rhetorical assumptions make your post irrelevant.

:think:

[William769]

16. Have fun!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. The DLC at DU?

Oh, you mean those three guys.

Starts with "M" and "W" and has "n-e-r-b-t" somewhere in the title.

[Dr Fate]

43. You mean they are not all the same guy? I welcome him-er-them just the same. n/t

n/t

[Old and In the Way]

19. Thanks...that'll make you a lot of friends here.

How about "Investigate the Crimes" for starters? I, too, want to see justice served...but we have to get to impeachment only after the facts are gathered and the evidence warrants. "Impeach Bush" feels good, but we really need to get the horse hitched up to the front of the cart, 1st.

[Katherine Brengle]

22. Exactly -- anything less would be both irresponsible and possibly even more importantly

not what the voters want.

If we want to stay in control long enough to make the changes that must be made, we need to make sure that the will of the people is carried out.

Ideology is what has brought and will bring down the Republican Party -- we cannot succumb to it as well.

The purpose of democracy is representation of the citizens of this country -- we owe it to them to do this right.

[AntiFascist]

57. I understand....

but the effort undertaken by Bob Fertik is to mobilize the grassroots in order to lobby Congress to start the process. This is not a crazy, wild-eyed endeavor since recent polls actually show that a majority of Americans favor impeachment if Bush lied us into war. My fear is that unless the people make their feelings clear, any resulting investigations may end up like Iran-Contra.

[chefgirl]

20. Ok, thats what they plan to do for Impeachment

And then when President Cheney takes control, what do they plan to do about actually governing????

Whats that? Oh, right....thought so.

Nobody could possibly want this little fucker impeached more than I do, but I want the Democrats to govern with integrity even more, and not rush into a completely vindictive agenda from day one.

Investigations MUST be the first step, with TRUTH being the goal, not just impeachment.

If the facts bear out high crimes and misdemeanors, (and I happen to believe fully that they will) THEN we will have the moral high ground, and impeaching the President wont make us look like the same kind of assholes the Republicans looked like in the 1990's.

-chef-

[Redstone]

24. Very well said. I think this is the first of your posts I've seen, but I wish I had seen

more of them. You think and write well.

redstone

[chefgirl]

26. Thanks Redstone

I've seen many of yours, and I'll return the compliment.

-chef-

[Redstone]

27. I'll keep an eye out for your posts in the future. As I said, you write well. I could

learn from you.

Redstone

[magellan]

25. Part of impeachment is investigations

[niallmac]

29. Sound and Pent up Fury.

Somehow I trust this outpouring of repressed rage will find a common channel.
For all those who want to impeach now: Fine. first the investigation into all the secret crap.
For all those who want to concentrate on stuff like overseas mass murdering illegal wars etc: Fine. We can investigate all the secret crap at the same time.

[AntiFascist]

58. Cheney is a very important part of the investigations as well...

and just because someone is impeached, or goes through the impeachment process, doesn't necessarilly mean they leave office <ahem> Based on your last paragraph I think we are in agreement, I just want to make sure that the alleged high crimes have a chance of being brought to light.

[magellan]

21. Is there a direct link to the petition?

I can't find it on that page. Or is it not operational yet?

[BootinUp]

31. Is this another IMPEACHMENT thread?

:lol:

[Zhade]

34. DLCers are in the minority - they can hardly take over DU.

They haven't been able to since the site started, they won't be able to now.

Like their laughable myth that DLCism won the election, they can be safely ignored.

[AntiFascist]

60. I'm sorry I said it that way, and I didn't mean to offend so many...

people. Sheesh!

The real point is that the more progressive Democrats are immediately taking up this effort. PDA just sent out an email about a panel on Nov. 11, 2006: "Movemement to Impeach Bush and Cheney"

www.pda.org

oh and Bob Fertik is one of the announced speakers.

[barb162]

36. The DLC is taking control of DU? Wow that's news

Gee, do the administrators know?

[Redstone]

37. Tilting at windmills, much? I'll sit this one out, thank you.

Redstone

[Wonk]

44. 5 posts is your idea of sitting it out? That's funny.

How many replies does one have to make in a thread to be considered actively participating, in your opinion?

/I was going to sit this one out until I saw this reply of yours.

[Redstone]

45. Stalker, much? Not to mention mathematically challenged?

Redstone

[Jim Sagle]

39. Chickenshit bullshit.

If DU is so DLC, how come Dean is waxing Rahm 25-3 in a DU poll even as we post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2953233

YYYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[upi402]

51. with W in 2nd place!

:rofl:

[kimpossible]

40. Impeach the liars!

[mmonk]

41. Thanks for the information and the controversial title of your post.

No, really, thanks for the info. I imagine alot of groups are going to pop up requesting impeachment.

[Dr Fate]

42. DLC worked hard in '06. They are welcome but by no means will they take over DU. n/t

n/t

[dysfunctional press]

47. um...what are the exact grounds for this impeachment...?

"doing something" isn't necessarily good, if it's something stupid, knee-jerk and ill-advised.

[AntiFascist]

61. It all looks like grass-roots, mobilization type of stuff...

I'm sure our elected officials would act responsibly, but the important part is to let them know how strongly many of their constituents feel about this.

I would listen to the speakers on Nov. 11 to understand the strategy for spelling out the grounds for impeachment. If anything seems knee-jerk or ill-advised, then now is the time to participate in correcting it.

[dysfunctional press]

78. pushing for impeachment at this point would be downright ignorant.

especially without SPECIFIC charges. and vague stuff like "an illegal invasion of iraq" WOULD NOT cut it, seeing as he had congressional approval.

[Laelth]

48. Awesome!

Bookmarking. Thanks.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[AntiFascist]

62. Thanks Laelth, and for all you do! n/t

[Nicole]

49. Has anyone let Skinner know that the DLC took control of DU?

I must have missed his announcement about the change in ownership.

[upi402]

50. ibtl

[Laelth]

52. If I may ...

To those of you who are concerned that we follow proper procedures and do a lengthy and formal investigation first, before proceeding with impeachment, I wonder if you're not being entirely genuine with us. We Democrats have been telling the American people that Bush has been shredding the Constitution since 9-11. Now you want to tell the American people, "Oh, sorry. Really, we're not sure he's been shredding the Constitution. We'll need to investigate that, and we'll get back to you about impeachment."

Is that what you want to tell your friends? Is that what you want to tell the American people?

No? I didn't think so. If you're honest with yourself, you might just discover that you just don't want to see an impeachment. And this insistence on formal procedures is merely a convenient and savvy means of avoiding an unpleasant national episode. Am I wrong here? I certainly hope so.

-Laelth

[NoSheep]

59. Could you present these ideas in a more respectful way? OR

are you just in it for the "Jerry Springer Factor"?

[AntiFascist]

65. Please see my post #56...

I really only intended for the main post to be an announcement, but the "Jerry Springer" factor was quite effective, no?

[Occulus]

64. We need to investigate before we impeach.

We need to impeach upon solid ground, with so many calls and letters coming in that conviction is a REAL possibility.

This needs to be NOTHING like the Clinton impeachment, in form or in substance. It needs to be irrefutable, and evidence needs to be presented.

*I* know that's doable, but I don't believe it's possible without a basis for it, the basis being thorough and in-depth investigations.

That's the only way we can guarantee a conviction: by making it impossible for the Republicans to not support impeachment.

Yes, I'm thinking about Nixon, and have been for a couple days now.

[MattSh]

66. Glad you have no other problems that need handling !!

Being out here on the eastern edge of Europe, I don't get all the latest, greatest news from the USA. But I thought you had problems with the economy going flat quickly, with jobs fleeing the country, with a government that's broke and a country possibly facing a Greater Depression worse than the 1930's, and with IRAQ, for chrissakes. And you prefer impeachment procedings over handling these problems? Oh, and the media loves a circus. Nothing like letting the media lead the people in an impeachment parade while the country continues it's fall into the abyss.

You need the Democrats, the people, and even a reluctant media to find solutions, and to find them quick, not to parade down Main Street proclaiming we can be just as irresponsible as they can.

Look, this "miserable failure" will be recorded in history as the "most miserablest of miserable failures". Let history do it's job and let the Democrats stop the headlong plunge off the cliff that the USA is currently heading for. Do it for yourself, and do it for the rest of the world too.

[AntiFascist]

68. Welcome to DU and I appreciate your post!

I don't think people fully understand the incredible cost of this war, and how the resulting debt is going to effect our ability to handle the other economic problems you mention above. The really sad fact, I beleive, is that the executive leadership and their cronies are making such tremendous profits off this war, and the continuing turmoil in the Middle East, that they are not motivated to end it, or to even establish a plan for ending it. They may be inept, but damn if they aren't making a killing (in more ways than one).

The most effective way to turn around the economy and to end the war is to expose the corruption and profiteering behind our direction in foreign policy.

[nolabels]

71. I think the blundering dunderhead * with arrogant selfishness will be.............

obliging after he gets angry a few times more. I do think he will make his own case for himself in the end, much like tricky Dick

[OneBlueSky]

72. absolutely correct . . . impeachment is a waste of time and energy . . .

that should be used to solve real problems of real people . . . that's why Democrats were elected . . .

and impeachment is NOT about justice . . . the only result of impeachment is removal from office -- no jail time, no fines, nothing else . . . if we want justice -- and I believe we do -- we need to investigate, gather the evidence, build the case, and haul their asses before U.S. and international courts at the appropriate time . . . probably after they're out of office . . .

impeachment would consume the government and the nation for the next two years and demonstrate that Democrats, like Republicans, can't govern . . . because nothing else would get done . . . if we go that route, our tenure as the majority party may very well be a short one . . .

[symbolman]

73. I woke up yesterday and had

DLC in my cornflakes, and sometimes they're in the bathroom, but I have my wife check it before I go in to shave now... :)

[Jawja]

75. Excuse me,

I am one who holds the opinion that impeachment should NOT be the first, front and center priority of the 110th Congress.

The DLC does NOT have control of me. :eyes:

[wyldwolf]

76. I've got a rash ... must be the DLC

[mhatrw]

79. Diaper rash? n/t

[Vidar]

77. K&R.

[bigtree]

80. DLC 'control' is a laughable fiction, too bad deluded proponents of that fiction are obsessed

[AntiFascist]

83. No one "controls" the party the way Republicans are controlled....

but the L in DLC does mean Leadership, no? And too many leaders kowtow to business interests.

[PVnRT]

81. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

impeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachment
impeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachment
impeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachment
impeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachmentimpeachment

Maybe if I keep saying it I'll finally start believing that that is the most important thing to be working on now. Clearly anyone who disagrees with you must be some kind of infiltrator - they can't be a TRUE progressive like you.

[oxbow]

82. IMO, the Impeachment Now crowd is moving way too fast on this

Democrats just took control of Congress THIS week. Give the country and Washington a little time to get used to the new management. Impeachment means different things to most people than it does to us. While we understand that it is a process for finding out if our leaders have committed crimes, most people see it as punishment for crimes that we already think they committed. Slow and steady wins the race, as they used to say. Let the investigations unearth all the bodies and late-night indiscretions and impeachment will follow, as surely as the wagon follows the horse pulling it.

[AntiFascist]

85. I understand, but many DUers don't seem to realize....

the public is now energized and ready to act. The Leadership is all to eager to quell this energy and promote their special interests or compromise instead.

Has anyone noticed this MSNBC poll?

87% of respondents (that's 344,000!!!) feel President Bush's actions justify impeachment!

How's that for a mandate?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904/

[txindy]

84. Yet another circular firing squad and only three days after a major victory.

Unbelievable.

[pinto]

86. Locking.

Inflammatory and leading original post. No one's "taking over" DU. We remain an open, independent discussion forum for Democrats and progressives. Thanks.