The Elephant In The Living Room Re:Impeachment

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Many people here refer to the enormity of the challenge of getting sixty seven votes in the senate. Has anybody stopped to think of the enormity of the challenge of getting to 218 votes in the House.
The reason the Republicans were successful in impeaching Bill Clinton was because they are an ideologically homogeneous party. The Democrats are not. There are forty or so Blue Dog Democrats, read moderate or conservative, in the House and it's unlikely they would vote for impeachment. It's not hard to envision a scenario where the House Judiciary Committee votes Articles of Impeachment against Bush and it fails to get the requisite 218 votes in the House because of Democratic defections.

[magellan]

1. So don't bring a case to trial because it might be hard to get a conviction

Honestly, I'm really beginning to see why our government is so broken.

[OneBlueSky]

2. impeachment is not about justice . . . that's what courts are for . . .

by the time impeachment ran its course, their terms of office would be pretty much over anyhow . . . and even if successful, it would result in no jail time, no fines, nothing other than removal from office . . . which will be happening anyhow . . .

better to spend our time solving real problems of real people while investigating and building a case that we can bring to U.S. and international courts after they leave office . . . courts with the power to try, convict, and punish . . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Impeachment Is A Political And Legal Act

Besides that the trial would be going on during the 2008 presidential election and would quickly become a "political football".


The bottom line to oppose impeachmenmt is because we don't have the votes in the House or Senate.

[magellan]

8. Impeachment is about defending the Rule of Law

...and the Constitution, and it's not an option. It's high time somebody in Congress besides Rep Conyers and a few others had the integrity to see that. It doesn't matter how long impeachment takes or what the outcome. It's their Constitutional duty to investigate suspected crimes of office and impeach if necessary. We wouldn't be in this terrible situation if most of them spent half as much time being concerned about our government as they do the next election cycle.

I also think the nearly 2900 dead US soldiers and 100,000+ dead Iraqis qualify as real people, although in the past tense, who deserve justice for the abuse of power Bush** engaged in to kill them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Because It's A Quixotic Mission That Stands To Harm The Democratic Party...

There is zero chance of getting to 218 in the House and less than a zero chance of getting sixty seven votes in the Senate.

Oh, a prosecutor is duty bound not to bring a case unless he is confident he can prove it in a court of law.

[BelgianMadCow]

6. I see you are a political realist, and am in favor of thinking, BUT

I fail to see how you can posit with certainty that 218 or 67 are unattainable.

Do you have full knowledge of all that can come out of investigations? I can imagine but I cannot pretend that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Sixty Seven Votes...

That would mean we would need seventeen Republican votes in the Senate... We stand a better chance of losing five to ten Democratic votes in the Senate than picking up seventeen Republican votes there.


As for the House there are many moderate to conservative Democratic representatives who will vote against impeachment.


If you want I'll name seven Democratic senators who I don't see voting for conviction in the Senate and forty or so Democratic representatives in the House who won't vote for impeachment.

I would need more time for the House because I'm not familiar with all two hundred thirty five or so Democratic representatives.

I agree with your larger point... That if a "smoking gun" was found public and political sentiment could swing wildly in the direction of impeachment but you could say that about any similar situation.

[BelgianMadCow]

13. We agree

in case investigation yields run-of-the-mill wrongdoing (and the mill is running very bad) I think your guess on the outcome is right.

In other possible scenarios, in which for example the energy meetings are revealed to be the carving up of Iraq for profit while the Iraq War goes the way of Vietnam further, I think the mood "swing" could be violent indeed.

And I took the energy meetings as the exmaple as it's chronologically the first thing to get to the bottom of.

[magellan]

9. Really! And you know that how? Crystal ball?

Are you for investigation or not? And how are you going to sell THAT if so?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Not A Crystal Ball

But I can look at a situation, the players involved , analyze it, and make a reasonable prediction about the outcome.

As for investigations I presume there will be many of them and if there are smoking gun or guns it will become apparent to all of us.

[magellan]

19. And when the investigations show high crimes and misdemeanors

...among other criminal acts, as they will, what do you propose then?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. If The Evidence Convinces A Majority Of American People Then Go For It

Impeachment is a political and legal act.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. If You Asked Me About Impeachement In 12/98 I Would Have Made The Same Prediction.

The clowns in the Republican controlled House had enough votes to impeach Clinton but not nearly enough votes in the Senate. And the lack of political will in the nation turned the whole procedure into a circus.

[magellan]

18. They impeached for political reasons, not valid ones

[AJ9000]

3. After an investigation, it could happen - but should we risk it?

If there was a complete investigation that made obvious to congress and the public the lying and wrong doing, then Dems might have a chance at a successful impeachment.

The real question to me is whether Dems should invest the time and energy into that, or focus on solving other problems. Dem leadership is certainly indicating the latter.

We all want a pound of flesh for what this country has been through, but we've got to make smart moves.

[B Calm]

11. It's their patriotic duty to impeach

if all the subpoenas and investigations prove there are grounds for impeachment! Bush is probably the first American President to be scorned, looked down upon and viewed with distrust and suspicion by the entire free world. Think how the world use to look up to America as a bastion of truth. How sad for America right now and how humiliating for us.

As Americans it’s our duty to put things right again. It’s our duty to repair our relationship with the world. We went to the polls like we never have done before and now it’s time for a change because we deserve better and we’re going to get better. In my opinion the only way is through impeachment!

[AntiFascist]

15. How many representatives would actually be tied up in the investigations?

The real elephant in the room is the Iraq War, and from what all the pundits have been saying this is what energized the US populace in this election. Does it not follow, then, that we should investigate how we went to war and for what purpose? Even Bush is now admitting that the strategy in Iraq is to keep control of the oil fields away from potential terrorists who could manipulate the price of oil. Fine, but I think the only way we can ever come clean about this to the Iraqi people is to admit what happened and punish those responsible, otherwise many Iraqis will continue to view we the people of the US as their enemy, and this will result in more terrorists being generated every day. If we the people can admit that our government did the wrong thing, and punish those responsible, then that would give us much leverage in working with the Iraqis. This process may already be starting with Rumsfeld, but we need to go all the way to the top.

[BelgianMadCow]

4. I heard an interview with the son-in-law of Nancy Pelosi

on our state radio channel, yesterday, he apparantly is fvrom the Netherlands.

When asked what some of her strong points were, he said her ability to make the dems speak with one voice.

I hope she & the Good Dr get to do much more of that. I believe in freedom of expression for legislators, but there are some (many) issues that should be no-brainers and be voted the same on by all dems + some repubs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. We Don't Have A Parliamentary System

The parties don't have a clear ideology. For instance we have pro gun legislators and anti-gun legislators in the Democratic party. We have pro choice legislators and anti-choice legislators in the Democratic party.


The parties here are very different than European parties when it comes to ideological purity.

[fasttense]

16. If the Democratic legislature doesn't investigate and

prosecute people then they wont be in office in 2009. If they don't have someone to point to and say he is in jail or out of office, they will be blamed for the mess that was left behind. Remember corruption was the number one issue in the exit polls.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Bush Will Be Out Of Office On 1/20/09

I don't oppose investigations and if those investigations produce a "smoking gun" Bush would resign before being impeached.

My point is if there are impeachable offenses it will be clear to everybody, not just us at DU...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. It is their job to uphold the Constitution, which they will be taking an oath to protect.

To allow a mass murderer go scott free is aiding and abetting.