I know it's crazy, but I think the Min. Wage should be $10 an hour.

[Philosoraptor]

Raising it a few stingy cents is just that, stingy and miserly, JUST TRY to live on it for a year with 3 kids, I dare you lawmakers.

I'll be happy if it is raised at all, anything helps, but it's practically a slave wage, and I've always thought the whole idea of the least legal amount a millionaire CEO can pay you is an insult anyway.

How high do they want to raise it?

[ixion]

1. I guess I'm not sure that every job is worth $10 an hour

I think what the job pays varies with the work, with the skill involved. Jobs that require no skill should not be paid the same as jobs that do require skill.

Also, increasing the minimum wage at all will increase inflation, because companies will simply pass these costs on to the consumer, at least in part.

Just my two cents.

[rug]

16. What job isn't?

[distantearlywarning]

26. Sports Star. Celebutante. Conservative talk show host.

Unfortunately, those people all make a lot more than $10 an hour.

[Critters2]

83. Bingo! nt

[liberaldemocrat7]

236. Pressure Republican contributors to get the Republicans to pass a $10 an hour minimum wage.

go to http://www.dmocrats.org

[BlooInBloo]

126. I love how pretty much everyone is pretty much always against the millionaires...

.... and pretty much never says word one about the billionaire owners.

Hm. The one looks one way, and the other, another. Looky that.

[Greyhound]

132. I see your point, but I rail against the ruling elite all the time, especially the owners

of the teams, studios, media, etc.

[BlooInBloo]

158. (shrug) Funny how that just doesn't get any play in the "DU press".

[Greyhound]

172. As George Michaels pointed out in 1989...

The rich have declared themselves poor. So their not to blame for anything, nor are they capable of making anything better, their just doing the best they can, just like the rest of us.

Besides a million ain't what it used to be.

[Tigress DEM]

162. I'm not "against" millionaires or billionaires for that matter.

oops posted too soon....


Yeah, I'm not "against" millionaires ... like to be one if possible.

Am against an unfair tax burden on people in the middle and at the bottom. Even some "millionaires" are closer to the middle with all the billionaires *ush has created.

The companies that hide their money off shore to avoid paying taxes are theives. It isn't just that they have money it's that they think it's just fine if they don't pay their fair share. So we come up short and property taxes get raised in areas that don't have billionaire's donating to their schools.

*ush talks about how the "rich" pay something like 36% vs 14% of the poor, but he doesn't mention that magic line -- used to be $100,000 then it moved up to $300,000 and now $500,000 where the system starts giving back more and more.

When the rest of us were paying $2-3 a gallon in gas right after Katrina, there were still provisions that allowed CEOs flying private jets some sort of rebate that allowed them to pay .01 a gallon for jet fuel.

Millionaires & Billionaires can be great people (Bono, Gates, Kerry) but corporate welfare at the expense of fair programs to help out people whose lives depend on getting a hand during their time of need just doesn't flip my switch.

[distantearlywarning]

168. It was just an oversight.

Billionaire owners aren't worth $10 an hour either. Happy now? There are probably quite a few other jobs that I could have thought of that are completely overpaid, but well, I had other things to do with my day. I just wanted to make a funny joke and move on to reading the next flaming thread about impeachment.

And by the way, your tone is why flame wars get started. My post was just an off-the-cuff thing, but you implied bitterly that I had purposely given a free pass to some people you think are scummy.

There's no need to automatically assume the worst of people. You could have made your point without being snarky.

[BlooInBloo]

192. True. I could have.

EDIT: Ok alright... Skeleton of explanation: counting on reasoned, cogent explanation to get you anywhere on DU is a a recipe for failure, practically speaking.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

238. It's the self made millionaires too.

New money.

Hmm.

[frustrated_lefty]

150. Waitress, cashier, cabbie, street cop handing out parking

tickets. The list goes on. Why would you think anyone is entitled to a better wage simply due to the ability to walk upright and carry simple messages?

[blogslut]

167. How about you work at one of those jobs

...for a year. And then get me back to me on how "simple" they are.

[frustrated_lefty]

171. Okie-dokey.

The thing is, I have worked similar jobs for minimum wage (and less than that upon occasion). When you're trying to put food on the table, any job will do. And, there are far worse things to do in life than working an honest job.

The question remains, though, why should the act of walking upright and conveying simple messages entitle anyone to demand a better salary?

[blogslut]

191. I don't know

I've never been in managment. :)

[entanglement]

200. All working people deserve a 'living wage'

It's not an 'entitlement', it's justice, plain and simple. It's a disgrace that people who work from dawn to dusk struggle to afford the basics of life. Funny how many progressives have bought into the false idea about a living wage for an honest day's work as some kind of 'entitlement'.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

239. So you did it yourself and now you would prevent them...

from making an honest wage?

What do they call people like that, and which circle of hell do they occupy?

[Morereason]

208. Wow, you don't see how scary your statement was? Do they deserve to live?

Don't get me wrong. Surely you are a compasioned person. But this is the same kind of thinking that sparks up ethnic war. There are many reasons a person may work what our society deems, "less skilled" work. They could simply not have good interviewing skills, they could have to because they have to be home to take care of someone during the day, it could be many reasons.

If you read up in history these jobs used to be considered "trades", and many of them were respectable lifelong livings. It is our societies biases that make the job less valuable. Although I don't know why, as waiter/tress work can be far more exhausting than that 75k "programmer" job that our society has deemed more "worthy".

Since our system and ideology requires that one person's labor be necessarily seen as more valuable than another, go ahead and make the distinction. But that is quite different than saying that someone should not be paid enough to live because their capabilites are inferior, which is essentially paraphrasing what you just said. Maybe you did not mean that?

[IndyOp]

41. 1 year at current min wage = $12,168. I year at $10 min wage = $20,800.

Current min wage = $5.85
One Year: 5.85 x 40 hours per week x 52 weeks = $12,168.

Philosoraptor's min wage = $10.00
One Year: 10 x 40 hours per week x 52 weeks = $20,800.

$12,168 is a poverty wage for just one person even in a fairly inexpensive region of the county.

Imagine that someone paid $500 a month for an apartment -- that is $6,000 a year.
Food? Clothes? Medical care? Kids, heaven forbid? Elderly parent?

In the past, increases in minimum wage have caused people to have more money to spend and the boost to the economy has more than offset any inflation that occurred.

Thom Hartmann's radio show, syndicated by Air America, is *excellent* to listen to on this topic or buy a copy of

Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class --
And What We Can Do About It>

The American middle class is on its deathbed. People who put in a solid day's work can no longer afford to buy a house, send their kids to college, or even get sick. If you’re not a CEO, you’re probably screwed.

As Air America Radio Host Thom Hartmann shows, this death is no accident. Like the Founding Fathers, patriots such as Roosevelt, Truman, and Eisenhower knew that economic opportunity and democracy go hand-in-hand. They believed in maximizing the public good and they worked tirelessly to build the strongest middle class the world has ever seen. But now, under the guise of “freeing the market,” conservative and corporate forces are waging a covert war against the middle class, dismantling policies like Social Security, Medicare, the minimum wage, and fair labor laws — the very safeguards that foster economic opportunity and citizen engagement. The result is an economic system designed to line the pockets of the super-rich, the impending extinction of the middle class, and a very real, very dangerous threat to democracy itself.

By exposing the systematic efforts to destroy the middle class, Screwed empowers readers to stand up, speak out, and reclaim their democratic birthrights.

[Hosnon]

57. I'm not either. But for other interests (society) I have no problem with saying

that all labor is worth at least $10 an hour.

[bleedingheart]

91. what kind of job do you think isn't worth much?

[Bucky]

129. George Bush's personal groomer

[Subdivisions]

95. The way I see it, it's not about the "job"....it's about what an HOUR

of your life is worth. We only get so many and to me each hour of my life is worth WAAAAYYYYYYYYYY more than ANY company anywhere can pay me.

If people said: "$10/hour? PSHAW! You want me to trade an hour of my life for a measly $10? Good luck finding ANYONE who would do something stupid like that."

Inflation? Then make a fucking 'nother law that makes it illegal to pass on the cost of a wage increase. I've seen the discrepancies between what a company makes off of employees and just how LITTLE of those profits are passed on to the people who make company profits possible. Labor is a company's smallest operating expenditure. Company's should take a little less profit and pay their employees a wage that allows them to stimulate, rather than inflate, the economy.

[hedgehog]

97. Time is time

Regardless of skills, everyone gets the same 24 hours a day. It doesn't take a lot of skill to clean a toilet, but most people would rather someone else took the time to do it.

[hfojvt]

193. as a toilet cleaner who makes $12.25 hourly

for me, it is not so much that a job is not worth $10 an hour, but I see alot of workers who are not. They feel like they should get paid $12 an hour to stand around and yak, or talk on their phone (or be posting on DU). At whatever wage I've seen too many of my co-workers who seem unwilling to work for their wage.

[Red Right and BLUE]

121. No offense but I think that's a RW scare tactic.

Years ago the FDA did a study that said if the wage were increased to somewhere in the $7.00 range (can't remember exact amount right off hand), groceries would go up by less than $.25 per every hundred dollars spent. If you're getting an extra several thousand per year, then you can afford a few extra quarters a month. The raise would greatly help the economy, with prices going up only in negligible amounts.

Another solution would be a percentage cap on ridiculous CEO salaries. In other words, you can't make more than (insert number here) times your lowest-paid employee's salary. It would be an incentive to pay your employees well.

edit for clarity

[Tigress DEM]

164. Awesome moniker! & a hearty I agree to 2nd part of your post.

"Another solution would be a percentage cap on ridiculous CEO salaries. In other words, you can't make more than (insert number here) times your lowest-paid employee's salary. It would be an incentive to pay your employees well."


YEAH. And just imagine the added connection employees and management feel when it's more of a shared situation and not peons and ruling class. It's "our company" type philosophy.


ALSO... in bankruptcy how about this reform... the CEOs & Execs don't get golden parachutes, they get fair compensation for having run the company into the ground and that huge extra income goes to stockholders and employee plans so that American companies can become industry leaders that keep their word again.

[Red Right and BLUE]

189. Yup, love it!

No more bankrupting and running away with all the millions.

[Morereason]

207. The Darwinian view?

This view has become so ingrained. This has come from corporatist propaganda.

$10/hr is not even enough to live on. So what this theory essentially says is if your "skills" do not fit, or in other words if *you* are not "fit", then you will have to suffer for that. Yet we *will* use your labor. Just we expect you to suffer because you do not "fit".

Why do we accept these ideologies? Because we have been taught to that we all have to compete and that people who don't "win" are "losers".

This is classic Darwinian socialism, and Machievellian. Please reject these philosophies. Your neighbor *does have real worth*, even if they don't have the same IQ or skills as you.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

2. I think they should tie it to what it should be had it been tied to

inflation in the first place. That might be even more than $10.00.

Everyone will scream about how it will kill small business. Small business is already killed by a host of other issues. Small business has somehow managed to survive when the costs of goods, services, transportation, etc. went up. It's foolish to say that wages should somehow be immune from rising along with everything else. It's just more voodoo economics. If you want to help small business - find a way for them to have affordable healthcare for themselves and their employees.

It's a non-issue for large corporations who disgracefully steal from the cookie jar for upper management at the expense of their shareholders and employees alike

[Barnaby]

17. Small businesses

Small businesses aren't going to fold.  Take restaurants. 
They'll just pass the cost along.  35% of Americans eat out
every day.  They're just too busy to stop just because prices
go up a little.

[vixengrl]

47. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

You have a good point--I've always wondered about the claim that small business will simply "pack it in". (I also wonder at times what definition of small business is being used, but that's another story.)

What--entreprenuers will lose all interest in making money? I don't see it myself--the cost will get passed along, but in the meantime, the diffence for their employees will be considerable. Maybe certain types of businesses or certain categories of employess should be an exception, but the current rate just isn't feasible for anyone to live on.

(Edit: genuinely realized that it should be a "qualified" answer--tacked on last sentence to clarify.)

[B Calm]

166. In states where the min wage is higher, hamburgers at Mc D's still

cost the same as in states with the lower min wage....

[Tigress DEM]

165. Can't they have a formula for small business & minimum wage?

It could be super simple. I think they already do it for health care. Something like under 50 employees doesn't have to provide health care or something like that. 50 - 100 has to provide health care to their full time employees and on up the ladder.

IF they put it in a sliding scale 50 employees or less $7 hr is minimum wage, 50-100 employees $8hr, 100-500 $9hr, 500+ $10hr.... then it would encourage smaller company size vs just acquiring company after company and absorbing them into conglomerates.

[DoctorMyEyes]

3. 7.25

I think it's $7.25 or $7.50 for the federal minimum wage. I think that's a nice jump from $5.15 and is WAY overdue. And I honestly don't think you're supposed to support three kids on minimum wage.

[demosincebirth]

23. You can hardly support yourself on 7.50 and hour let alone anyone else.

[Subdivisions]

96. $7.25 is NOT enough to support even yourself without a partner or

roomate to help with the bills. I want to know just how much the last Congressional wage increase would break down to hourly based on a 40 hour week. Can someone help me with an answer to this?

[Stardust]

163. Quick rough calculation: divide the annual by 2 (there are 2080 work-hours in a

year.)

[Saphire]

68. maybe your not supposed to, but a hell of a lot of folks are being made to.

I make a whopping 9.50 per hour. If I had to support my kids alone (which I don't thank godess), I'd be up a creek. We would hardly be able to pay rent. Our car, car insurance, health insurance would all be gone. Food would be a luxury. I know I could get 2 jobs to make ends meet, but wouldn't be able to get more education. I can't quit one job to have time for education, but wouldnt be able to afford it. Kinda a catch 22.

[walldude]

143. But people do... remember the lady who said to Bush

I'm a single mom working 3 jobs? I know many people like that, working 2 jobs or more to make ends meet.

[snappyturtle]

4. I agree Philosoraptor!

I don't know how high they want to raise it but if you think about it, it's a "tickle up" strategy....I think more than minimum wage earners would benefit.

[w4rma]

5. $7.50 is the number I have been reading that will probably get passed in January or so. (nt)

[wicket]

38. God I hope so

I'm not a minimum wage worker any more but they surely deserve at least that. The current minimum wage is criminal.

[Deja Q]

6. Or if they are so scared of high wages for workers...

why not lower the cost of goods? The Indians and Chinese are prospering at $2/hr. So can Americans. If the cost of living was dropped accordingly. And that would truly make America competitive with the rest of the world again, which is what Republicans claim to want.

And with education going down in price, we could all afford it again.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

7. New World Order! New World Order! nt.

[bigscott]

8. when you think about it

even if the minimum wage WAS $10 per hour, the people making minimum wage spend every dime they earn just trying to live - not many workers at McDonalds have big savings accounts. $10 per hour is 20,000 per year - every dime of which goes back into the economy - good for all businesses, small and large

[KSU Wildcat]

9. Raising the minimum wage to $7.50

per hour will help very few people. Most part time jobs are already paying $7.00 or more. The minimum wage is an entry level wage for some one with limited skills and education. As soon as they get some experience and show that they are dependable their worth goes up.

Good dependable help with experience is hard to find. Some individuals are not even worth the current minimum wage due to their own work ethic.

[Wednesdays]

53. Yeah, those greedy, scummy

lowlife minimum wage workers. They don't deserve a dime. Unlike all the pure, virtuous billionaire CEOs. :eyes:

[KSU Wildcat]

94. Raising the minimum wage to $7.50

is not going to change any of that. Very very few people make less than $7.50 an hour. $7.50 an hour over a period of 2 or 3 years is all our Democrats are talking about.

[Marlana]

149. Really?

Where I live most jobs start at $7.50 to $8.00 an hour, even for college grads. I've noticed a few places hiring at a little more than that but not many. I have a friend who has worked in a very busy office that brings in a lot of money for five years and she's only making $7.50. Her boss has refused to give raises across the board for three years but he bought a second home in California, went to Spain and got a Lexus while his employees barely make enough to live on. That's the real world. These aren't high school kids, they're middle aged adults and quite a few of them have college degrees.

[KSU Wildcat]

153. Where do you live?

I know someone who is interested in moving his small manufacturing business where the taxes and overhead are not as high as what they are here (central Kansas). He has thought about subcontracting some to Mexico for some of his parts but would rather keep it within our border.

[Marlana]

154. Southwest Missouri nm

[KSU Wildcat]

156. That is interesting.

In our conversations he has mentioned the Joplin area.

[SOS]

178. Raising the minimum wage to $7.50

would still be lower than it was in 1968.
In 2006 dollars, the minimum wage in 1968 was $7.71.
If you take the minimum wage as a share of average private nonsupervisory wage it was $8.62 in 1968.

As a share of average private nonsupervisory wage it was $8.79 back in 1957.
Time for a raise to $9, just to keep up with the Eisenhower years.

http://www.cbpp.org/6-20-06mw.htm

Re: very, very few...

An estimated 14.9 million workers would receive an increase in their hourly wage rate if the minimum wage were raised from $5.15 to $7.25 by 2008. Of these workers, 6.6 million workers currently earn less than $7.25 and would be directly affected by an increase. The additional 8.3 million workers earning slightly above the minimum would also be likely to benefit from an increase due to “spillover effects”.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/06/14/fast-facts-on-the-minimum-wage/

[fidgeting wildly]

84. Oh please.

I have a college degree and I work my ass off. At 26, I have so far never achieved a wage of $10/hr., and I've been working steadily since I was 16. There are plenty of people twice my age in this country who've been working hard and steadily for most of their lives who aren't making $10/hr. Low wage jobs don't give generous merit-based raises. In my experience, a raise of $.25/hr. can be expected once a year, IF your attendance is perfect. And people who have children aren't always able to achieve perfect attendance. That's just the nature of having a family. So if you have a sick kid and have to miss some work? No raise for you this year!

Maybe if people had hope, they would work hard and be "worth" a living wage in your eyes. :eyes:

[KSU Wildcat]

90. You made my point...

Raising the minimum wage to $7.50 an hour would do nothing for you. Very very few people are working for less than $7.50 an hour.

I do not know what your degree is but if you are only making $10 an hour with a college degree, something is wrong. Maybe you should have gone to a trade school to become a plumber, electrician, heating/air mechanic. Even school teachers make more than $10 an hour.

[Clark2008]

110. Um... that is the standard wage of college grads in parts

of the country. I, too, have a college degree and only make a little more than that.

Depends on where you live.

Don't be so quick to judge.

[readmoreoften]

111. Welcome to DU. It's always refreshing to see anti-labor posts so early in one's career here.

When the minimum wage goes up, everyone else's wage goes up as well. That's how it tends to work. There are multitudes of people who get out of school and only make $10 an hour. If you don't know that, then you're either over 50 or you're still in college or you're a rich kid or a combination thereof.

Yes, it is smart to become an electrician or a plumber, but few young people are being advised in those directions. And, by the way, it is unionization that makes those jobs so valuable. And you're probably against that too.

[fidgeting wildly]

117. Who cares what it would do for me?

I care about what it would do for ALL Americans. Not all of us are only interested in what benefits ourselves.

Maybe my reply wasn't well stated. I found your statement that "Some individuals are not even worth the current minimum wage due to their own work ethic" DISGUSTING, and what I was trying to say is that you're telling fairy stories. To suggest that a person's "worth" (and wages) go up if he or she just adheres to your idea of dependability, is outrageous. And it shows a lack of understanding on your part about the realities facing low wage earners.

[Morereason]

210. You hit it! There is still a "me me" ideology even in our party

It is always easy when you have made your way to look back and critisize others or see them as lesser beings because they cannot climb the same ladder, or have not had the same opportuntities as you. It is call lacking in COMPASSION.

Compassion is one of the "family values" we really need to nurture more in our country. Seems we have lost loads of it to our current Darwinian Socialist philosophies.

[Red Right and BLUE]

127. That's not true at all.

Tell that to every employee who took a job at Target down the street from me this year. Most of those people aren't high school kids and I would guess that most of them have families to feed. I see signs all over town. "Hiring! Starting at $7.25!" And I live in one of the most expensive places in the country.

[Ravenseye]

116. I disagree with your reasoning

If someone isn't worth the current minimnum wage, then they should be fired. If someone's work ethic is so slack that they are pissing their time on a minimum wage job, the company should fire them and hire someone else, rather than make a claim that they should pay a lazy person less.

The lowest salary I pay (I own a company) is $15.00 an hour, which is twice what the proposed minimum wage is. 15 an hour is a living wage in my opinion. Not a great living wage, but a living one. You're right that there aren't many people on the minimum wage currently, and those that are, are generally transitory workers heading up to a higher wage, or part time work. The problem is that it's not all, and it needs to be reflected.

The minimum wage is about making sure that people aren't exploited. It's one of the reasons that our major cities are surrounded with places like this...


Holding the minimum wage down, or even getting rid of it as some conservatives advocate, would inevitably create these situations. Wages would remain depressed with no reason to rise, while the cost of living, of rent, of land, of food, would all increase. It wouldn't happen overnight, and might take years or even decades, but it would happen. The minimum wage is meant to protect the workers, to assure than every man and woman who works a full time job, get paid an amount which allows them to live in a reasonable manner. THat picture does not represent a reasonable manner.

Plus the minimum wage affects more than just those that make the minimum, but those above it. Someone making 7 an hour now, will see their pay increased above the minimum wage as well. Someone making 8 might now make 10, and so on. It helps more than just those on the lowest rung. In addition more money in the pockets of the people who will spend it has time and again been shown to boost the economy. People who make 10 dollars an hour spend it all, and each of their dollars circulates in the economy more. Businesses get that money as spending increases and the econonmy increases around it.

So I disagree with your reasoning. It will help many people, those few that stay on minimum wage for a long term, and the large number of people whos wages hover within 5-10 dollars an hour of that wage. All of them will benefit. If someone has a poor work ethic it means they should be fired, not that they shouldn't earn a decent wage.

[DocSavage]

169. I have driven

around Boston, New Orleans, Houston, Dallas, Denver, Chicago, Kansas City and I have yet to see a shanty town like you posted. Sure you got the right country?

[Ravenseye]

170. Sorry

That line should have read "...why our cities AREN'T surrounded by...".

In context it doesn't make much sense if I said "are". Sorry for the typo.

[SOS]

181. Here's a photo gallery

of grinding poverty in the US:

http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/index_apathy_1.htm

[Vanje]

183. 7.50 is not enough

Raise the minimum to ten. Do it now, and see what kind of retail season the shops and cafes have this holiday season.
Maybe your manufacturing friend could even sell his products domestically, if workers actually had some paycheck left over after paying rent and feeding their kids.

Trickle-up.

[HardRocker05]

206. you get what you pay for. don't expect serious, decent employees to work for $5-7/hr

any employer offering less than a living wage (which varies from place to place) is basically saying to all employees, "This job is a joke; i expect little or nothing from you." any job worth doing is worth a living wage; otherwise why would anybody be doing the job? for charity, or because they really love it? here in rural SE kansas, "9-11/hr is considered a "good" wage, but one person can hardly live on that, let alone save anything. yes, raising the minimum to 7.50 wouldn't help many people directly, but it would cause a general increase in the low-end wages which would help a lot of people.

[Morereason]

209. Should they die then? Or should we find more responsible ways ....

to deal with "lazy" workers. I am sorry. But these comments just show the depth of the ideology that we have partaken in, Darwinian Socialism, um, survival of the fittest. Do Democrats really want the US to be a "Jungle"? Or can we, being supposedly more "evolved" get past that way of thinking? Isn't that the definician of "Progressive"?

How can we keep the Darwinian ideologies and be "progressive", they don't work together... We have to find better ways.

[dipsydoodle]

10. At current exchange rates

it's $10 in the UK. What's the big issue with a minimum of $10 an hour ?

[momzno1]

15. we are not in the UK

everything there is at least twice as expensive pounds to dollars.

[dipsydoodle]

20. That's a fairy story

which helps contribute to the arguement of keeping your minimum wages lower. I agree your food is cheaper - that's mainly due to rigged trade agreements and farm subsidies etc.

[momzno1]

28. I have been to the UK and recall quite clearly

that to buy consumer goods that the price was the same amount of pounds as dollars, with pounds being worth what- $2.00 each?
so, I stand by my fairy story, and wish it were different.

[druidity33]

157. uh, that's called...

an EXCHANGE rate and it varies. The Almighty Dollar is weaker than it's ever been, and Americans are feeling it whenever they travel. Kinda sucks when your country's policies have been pissing off the world for decades. When i was in Britain last (early 90's) the rate was about $1.53 to the pound and people were complaining then that it was high...

But also think that sometimes the equivalent value is not the same... milk was 1P 30p a gallon, milk here $2.09 (xample). So it's not an even equation...

:shrug:

[DocSavage]

32. How big is your

business and what is your payroll? Figure if you can just say no big deal, your employee cost must be a very insignificant part of COGS.

[Morereason]

211. You have it inversed. 7.50 = less than 5 UK pds.. live off that?

Besides, anyone who looks at the UK as a model is nuts. It is moving down the same path we are at twice the speed. Only their social programs are keeping thier country from real 3rd world status.

[Jamastiene]

11. I'll vote for you if you run next time on that.

I'm serious. I agree that minimum wages tend to get increased by pennies while the cost of living goes up in the dollars. There is something screwy about that.

[Liberal In Texas]

12. $10 sounds about right. It's still low IMHO. n/t

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Red Right and BLUE]

128. Welcome to DU

:eyes: You smell funny.

[Nicole]

139. Have you been to the grocery store lately?

I don't see high school "punks" bagging groceries. I see middle age men & women bagging groceries. I bet some of them are feeling damn lucky they even got those jobs.

I hope you choke on that cereal you saved a buck on. Tough rocks pal!

[darkism]

152. OWNED! n/t

[brokensymmetry]

13. I agree.

Ten years ago it was $5.15 an hour. Have costs
doubled in 10 years? Perhaps not officially...but
I think the "cost of getting by" has.

I think a person who works full time - you know,
the old 40 hour week - should be able to afford
the basics. A clean, decent place to live; transportation;
(ahem) health care; good, nutritious food; and, yes, a
little fun.

Will costs to consumers go up? Yes. But I believe
that decent people would rather pay a little more
so the workers can have some small portion of
dignity and security.

[SmokingJacket]

14. No, I agree -- it's a living wage.

Of course, companies would have to lower their top salaries to afford it, but I think that's fair -- companies shouldn't be paying their top employees any *more* than a living wage if they can't afford to give their bottom employees *at least* a living wage.

Ten bucks is at least what an hour of human labor is worth, no matter what it is.

[AIJ Alom]

18. I agree with you, and there should be a cap on CEO's

and executives as well. Otherwise the wholesale of American jobs will continue to feed the corporate executives growing appetites.

[HughBeaumont]

19. Ohio passed it's Issue 2. MW is going up from 5.15 to 6.85 after a decade of non change.

What people don't seem to get is that the 1997 5.15 in 2006 dollars is 6.47. So we're merely raising the wage 38 measly cents.

So yes, it SHOULD be at 10 dollars an hour. Our cost of living doesn't accommodate those making even THAT much safely.

[zeemike]

21. I agree for some of the reasons already stated

And a minimum wage of 10 dollars would practically eliminate illegals from coming over here to take the low paying jobs that Americans can't take.
It would be great for the economy as billions would be pumped back into the system.

[Bonhomme Richard]

22. I own my own business and................

I agree with you 100%. Even that probably isn't enough. It doesn't do me any good if an employeee is worrying how he is going to put food on the table.

[DocSavage]

40. If you own

your own business, you set the pay rate. What does minimum wage have to do with it. If you are so concerned about your empolyees putting food on the table, pay then 25 bucks an hour to start. That will solve the problem. Does the pay rate of your employees not affect your bottom line? I mean, no one is forcing you to pay minimum wage if that is what you are paying.

[Bonhomme Richard]

66. The minimum wage has nothing to do with.............

what I pay employees. What I pay is nowhere near minimum wage. I was making a statement from an employers point of view. A point of view that does not agree with lining my own pockets at the expense of others. I guess I was misunderstood or maybe it was something else.

[DocSavage]

80. No, I misunderstood

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

82. I want to go work for you!

:toast:

[Morereason]

212. If others are *required* to pay $10/hour it makes it better for businesses like yours

Because you can compete with them and even offer a little better wage. In the unequal situation we have now even employers that want to pay more have too much pressure to reduce wages from the lowest denominator.

[meganmonkey]

24. That's not crazy

Crazy is thinking that raising it to $7.25 will make the lives of poor working families much better :shrug:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

25. no it's NOT crazy...that would be a living wage...a good starting point anyway

[Vinca]

27. I agree with you completely.

I can't think of any job that isn't worth $10 an hour. Even at that rate, workers who are not provided health insurance will not be able to afford it.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. I thnk you are off by about one dollar.

COLA adjusted the min ought to around 9.00, and it ought to be COLA adjusted so that it stops being a political weapon. The good news is that there were several state ballot initiatives that did just that, and they did quite well. It turns out that the people actually support 'leftist' ideas like fair wages.

[Morereason]

214. COLA is not accurate as it has been politically manipulated

The inflation stats that COLA uses are crap. Anyone on the streed can tell you that inflation for real expenditures has gone up DRAMATICALLY for most of the population in recent years, yet inflation figures remain small. These measurements need change. I have no doubt that COLA is underestimated.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. I am a florist

and I can't afford to pay my delivery kid (17 years old) $10 an hour. I'd have to close. I don't think that would be good for the economy, because many small businesses would have to go under. That almost doubles salary costs.

[wildflowergardener]

37. Florist

I am not arguing this one way or another, but somehow in college about 12 years ago, my part time job employer was able to pay me less than minimum wage because it was supposedly for agriculture work.

I was working at a garden center and florist.

It seems as if they could do some sort of a two tiered system - maybe one for people under age 17 or something (or whatever) and higher for above that age - though unfortunately there are young people who are trying to support families as well.

Meg

[moose65]

44. Aren't there exemptions...

for people who also receive tips, like wait staff and delivery people? I'm not sure about that, though. Seems to me there could be a two-tiered system, one for 16 - 17 year olds, and one for "fulltime" workers (I know, the devil is in the details)! My 17-year-old niece works in a fast food restaurant, and for her, $5.30 an hour is a LOT of money. Of course, she's not paying rent or utility bills either.

[LanternWaste]

99. You are correct.

I waited tables at Bennigan's in college (1986). I don't remember what the minimum wage was at the time, I think it was maybe $4/hr if that (as I do remember the minimum wage in '84 was $3.35) and I was making $2.01/hr waiting tables. Our mantra was, "Bank the check and live off the tips".

Seasonal work is exempt, also. My first job ever (in the glory days of summer, 1983) was sweeping butts and mopping puke at Six Flags over Texas. I was making app. 15% less than min. wage doing that.

[Pugee]

119. Waiting tables here in Missouri in 2006 is $2.50 an hour or pretty close.

Your tips are supposed to make up the difference.

[earth mom]

54. Raise your prices. eom

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

79. Prepared to help the cause?

Patronize those stores that have to do that then........

[earth mom]

88. If there was such information available, I would do just that! nt

[Pithlet]

108. With the minimum wage raised, they'd all have to

So the stores who are willing to do it won't get undercut.

[Burma Jones]

58. Does your Delivery Kid get Tips?

I'm OK with exemptions for workers already claimed by someone else as a Dependant.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

142. Sometimes they get tips

but not reliably. I would never hire someone supporting a family for this job.

[Pithlet]

109. Well

It is possible it may hurt some small business. But, I don't think we keep minimum wage at poverty level just to make it easier for people to open and maintain small businesses. It's not that I'm unsympathetic to small business owners, or that I don't understand how important they are. My parents were small business owners for years. I always choose small business whenever possible. But, at some point in the cost/benefit analysis, we have to weigh what having millions of people living in poverty does to society, both economically and socially. Minimum wage should have already reached 10 dollars an hour, and while it's great that some have benefited in that lag, it doesn't change the fact that this is long overdue. I wouldn't be opposed to additional grants to small business owners to ameliorate some of the hardship that a sudden rise in minimum wage would cause. I think big box stores have done much more to hurt small businesses than any rises in minimum wage will have or would ever have.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

145. Happily, I have another job

(I am a teacher) and I own the florist with my daughter. It's all about the bottom line. If it isn't high enough, we are out of business. It's that simple. I can't afford to support the business with my salary. I already pay above minimum, but $10 and hour we'd lock the doors and go home. And that's okay. It's pretty much a big-box world out there anyway. If I raise my prices, I won't get business. It is amazing what a fragile equation it is. Sometimes I wish I were a Communist. Nah, not really. But I AM glad my main income is out of the public sector.

[Bryn]

174. Could It Be You're My Cousin?

I have a cousin in Tallahassee (where I was born) who owns a florist with her daughter. (fingers crossed because so many people in my family are Republicans as well as fundies.) In fact I have over a hundred of cousins in Tallahassee. I live in Hot Springs, Arkansas now (home of Bill Clinton's boyhood) :hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

184. I don't think there are any fundies in

my family. My one uncle in Tallahassee owns a real estate company. Ring any bells?

[Bryn]

187. Nope

No I don't have a Uncle owning a real estate business there. As far as I know, most of my cousins are Republicans and Bush-lovers. Even my own Mother, my brother, my sisters. They think I don't know any better. :crazy:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

188. Poor dears

Be kind to them.

[Morereason]

215. No, if your competitors also have to pay $10 it will actually probably increase your business

People just don't do the math. It sounds good because we have been sold on it. But think about it. You are actually discouraged by wage depression from doing the "better" thing. Up that minimum wage, for you and your competitors, and you will no longer have to cut your own corners to try and give your own employees a decent wage. It will take a burdon from you.

And your delivery people will actually be able to buy your products as will the other minimum wage employees through your area.
The prices of goods may go up some, but ultimately expendible income will rise more than it.

The only people that will be disadvantaged will be those that live off of the backs of society by purposely and unnecesarily placing their employees at risk.

Think about it. Your local Wal-Mart will become LESS COMPETITIVE!!!! It would be a boon to small businesses!!!

[tk2kewl]

31. I think there couldbe a lower minimum for people under 17 yrs old.

[Fierce]

73. Then just watch who gets hired in minimum-wage jobs.

And then watch what happens when they hit 18.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

78. Are stores and businesses only going to be open after school?

I think that would put a krink in that plan......

[Morereason]

216. Yes

[poofer]

33. minus taxes

$10 an hour is not over the top because by the time they take everything out for taxes, medicare etc, it would amount to less than what people can live on. it irks me to hear how abused the illegals are being treated here for wages. Yes they work for less an hour but we get the same amount in the end after deductions.

[rock]

34. Not crazy

The idea that is, I wasn't talking about Philosoraptor.

[Philosoraptor]

35. I RESEMBLE that remark!

[OneBlueSky]

36. you're right . . . it SHOULD be . . . but it won't . . .

look at all the jobs that are already leaving this country because labor in other nations is so much cheaper . . . a $10 minimum wage would only accelerate this process . . . and having a job paying $7.25/hour is far, far better than having no job at all because it's been shipped offshore . . .

[eridani]

39. In constant dollars--

--minimum wage is now lower than it was in 1955

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html

[Nimrod2005]

42. Please calm down...It is easy to figure out the numbers:

It was $5.15 10 years ago...We've had around 3% inflation for 10 years...So it need to be adjusted by 30%, putting the number at $6.70. What need to happen and I hope it does is making a law that the min wage is automatically adjusted for inflation every year.

[Ellis Wyatt]

59. that's not how you calculate interest rates.

It's (1.03)^10, not 1.03*10 which is a a 35% increase

[Morereason]

218. Not to mention innacurate inflation measurements

Who has experienced 3% inflation? Is that real? Of course not. It is more government/Corp propaganda designed to keep us ignorant.

I hope politicians have better math skills than this.

[BlueEyedSon]

43. and the top tax rate should be 90%. Cap gains should be taxed as reg income.

etc etc

[Ellis Wyatt]

62. 90%??!!!!

Whoa whoa whoa. Above what threshold are you talking? Even if it's $1 million, that's just way too high.

[BlueEyedSon]

67. Yeah only a sick twisted socialist country would do that (tax table attached)

the US, that is.... in 1944-1963

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

the great thing about DU is the opportunity to learn something new every day!

[Ellis Wyatt]

69. I knew that

I knew we had it at one point. But JFK got rid of it (and the 60s also happened to be one of the best decades for economic growth in the country's history). Just because we had it at one point, doesn't mean it was right.

I'm all for helping the little guy, but making it so super rich people have absolutely no financial incentive to work, can do nothing but hurt the economy in the long run.

[BlueEyedSon]

71. How about a tax on capital? You think having $1B in the bank is incentive

to work?

No, having enormous wealth is an incentive to lobby, manipulate, and game the system.

[Ellis Wyatt]

72. I agree in principal

but having $1B in the bank or invested in a company or whatever, helps either that Bank give loans to small businesses who grow the economy or helping that company raise capital to add jobs.

[BlueEyedSon]

106. Then explain why the trend of the rich getting richer has only accelerated

that trend instead of lifting all boats.

[Morereason]

219. Loans do not come from bank money any more

loans do not come from existing bank money anymore. Most come from borrowing money from the fed do they not?

[Hawkowl]

179. Not if...

that capital is invested in China, or Mexico etc. If the superrich don't invest their money in the U.S. they should have to pay a hefty tax rate. Period. They can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Their choice.

[Morereason]

233. Excellent point!

[klook]

45. The only thing crazy about it

is that it could cut into the resources of our nation's fabulous CEOs, making it harder for them to own five luxury homes. Which, in my estimation, is not crazy at all.

CEO pay has exploded and by 2005 the average CEO was paid $10,982,000 a year, or 262 times that of an average worker ($41,861).
source: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621

Maybe if CEOs only got paid, say, 150 times as much as an average worker (still outrageous), more Americans could earn a living wage.

[moose65]

46. wow, that's something!

Damn, over 10 million a year! There is no way that these CEO's are worth THAT much. If they cut CEO pay down to 1 million, they would have 9 million extra bucks to spend on the peons. The greed of these people never ceases to amaze me. If I made 100,000 a year I'd think I was rich!

[Greyhound]

134. You should post the comparison of amerikan CEO pay rates in comparison

to the CEO rates in other countries. IIRC the rest of the world pays about 40 - 45 times the average wage while we pay 250!?!

[Burma Jones]

48. We pay baby sitters $12.00 - $14.00 per hour

Around here (DC Suburbs) it's tough to get anyone to stay in a job for less than $10 per hour.....

[gollygee]

51. Even where I live - southwestern Michigan - it's about $10/hr

for a babysitter.

I can't imagine having to live on minimum wage.

[Tin Man]

49. "Do unto others" rule applies - what would YOU be willing to PAY someone for their labor?

IMO, paying someone $10/hr for unskilled labor sounds a tad high to me. However, I suspect that a fair minimum wage is a function of prevailing local conditions: $10 in NYC is worth a lot less than $10 in Lubbock, TX.

[Virginia Dare]

50. Inflation looms on the horizon....

this is something that will have to be tackled as well.

[Greyhound]

135. The inevitable inflation has nothing to do with the minimum wage.

Stopping or controlling it necessitates further massive devaluation of an already anemic dollar. It ain't gonna be pretty.

[Morereason]

220. Funny, in real life (not govt figures) inflation has been rampant for years

[In Truth We Trust]

52. If you work full time then you should be above poverty line which itself is set unrealistically. nt

[Hosnon]

55. I don't think that is crazy at all. I'm inclined to think that is about right. nt

[ACK]

56. $10 an hour is a good starting point

You know whatever we come out with they (the Repukes and Bush) will want to fight us on.

If we get less than $10 an hour we get to increase the minimum wage and still get to keep the battlecry for the next election.

Its good all around. I am with you man.

[Burma Jones]

60. How about an exemption for workers already claimed as a Dependant?

If you're claimed on someone else's (like a parent) Tax Form as a Dependant, you have a lower minimum wage?

[helderheid]

61. according to Kucinich it should be $15 with inflation

[earth mom]

63. I can NOT believe some of the replies to this thread!

Oh ME ME ME! "I can't afford to pay $10 an hour!" Well wake the hell up because YOUR EMPLOYEES CAN'T AFFORD TO WORK FOR $10 AN HOUR!!! :grr:

Does anyone realize that the current minimum wage equals half of what it is in buying power due to inflation?! That in todays dollars, $6 or $10 is really like paying people $3 or $5?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jeezus! WWJD?! Where is the compassion? Where the fuck is it?! Did DU just get taken over by a bunch of DINOs? The stupidity and selfishness I'm seeing here infuriates me to absolutely NO end! :wtf:

:rant:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

76. I know! They should close their business if they can't pay up!

I'm sure their workers would tell them to keep their lousy money and starve on the street instead!:sarcasm:

Stop acting like the small business owner is part of the upper class or the CEO of Wal-Mart and curb the anger. We can have a real debate and progress in this country once we stop shitting on both the minimum wage worker and the average mom and pop guy who employs them.

[earth mom]

87. Sorry, but if they want to be part of the solution, they must stop being part of the problem.

They can raise prices, or find ways to bring in more business. But cutting corners for increased profits should NOT be done at the expense of a human being!

FYI-That is called EXPLOITATION.

Whether or not it's being done by the big corporate bastards or the little guy at the corner market.

[readmoreoften]

113. Stop acting like the small business owner is the issue here.

If you can't afford to pay your employees $10 an hour then you can't afford to be in business. Period. And I had a small business for 7 years. You know how to get around it: independent contractors, etc. Keeping them in poverty isn't doing them any favors either.

[Morereason]

222. You are not thinking this through

Please move past the ideologies we have been forced to swallow...

Think about it, WAL-MART will have to pay it's employees the same wage. That will make small businesses MORE COMPETITIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

[WindRavenX]

115. I share your frustration

I am making minimum wage and trying to support myself while going to college-- try living on 77$ a week and you have credit card bill, cell phone bill, food, AND travel expenses.

I shudder to think if I had someone dependent on me.

[Morereason]

221. It is not their fault, they have been propagandized to death.....

In reality progressive business owners should think about how this would work a little better. It will remove a compettitive disadvantage for them. Because as it stands now you are at a great disadvantage in many businesses types if you want to do the right thing.

Progressive business owners should be all over this, supporting it! It will HELP their business survive and give them more opportunity to be a better steward.

[Carni]

64. I agree with you and if not 10 then 8 at the very least

I can see employers not wanting to pay highschool kids 10 bucks an hour for summer and part time jobs (no offense highschool kids but I was one once and am not sure that I was a great employee then) I don't know how that could be worked around but I agree every adult should be paid at least a wage that they can attempt to live on.

[Ellis Wyatt]

65. it would be swell

to say that everyone currently making minimum wage should be making $10, and then they can have a living wage.

The problem is that you can't fix employment. There are jobs which are only equitable at $6 or less. If an employer is forced to pay more than that, they will just cut the job.

What's worse, is a grand scale increase of the $4+ you are talking about could make it more equitable for employers to automate entire industries. In farming, for instance, a lot of the work that is done manually, could potentially be done by machine. It's not because of the high overhead to implement the machines. However, if a large agricultural company who has say, 1,000 of their people at minimum wage, had to increase their pay each by $4+, that's $9 million in extra wages they'd have to pay.

It may make more sense to them to just cut all the jobs and automate, which would be contra to the whole desire of helping those who work at low-paying jobs.

An increased minimum wage makes sense, but unfortunately a raise of that size would have some dire consequences.

[Nye Bevan]

70. It would take $9.41 today to match the buying power of the 1968 minimum wage

Link: http://www.azsos.gov/election/2006/Info/PubPamphlet/english/Prop202.htm

And according to Wikipedia the minimum wage in France and Australia is equivalent to about $10 (US) per hour.

So $10 sounds about right, but it should probably vary regionally to account for differing cost of living in different parts of the country.

Here in Fairfield County CT babysitters charge $15 per hour, so raising the minimum wage to $10 would not have very much of an impact.

[Heywood J]

101. Yeah, but

that's also Fairfield County. It's not a fair comparison to the rest of the country.

[westy1080]

74. My first post here :-)

Now since Bush's buddies are out of office, I feel I can participate without being watched.

I say raise it to 30 or 35 dollars. If you save all your money that you make at a job that you get paid 10 dollars an hour, you barely have enough money to buy a car. You would not have enough money for the rent then and you will never get ahead. $20 an hour would be acceptable, but you would need to really worry about other expenses. $30 would be good. Then you have enough money for a car and a nice apartment and any unexpected things that come along.

[rman]

104. $30. I like it

And welcome to DU
:toast:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

185. Sigh...

I have been teaching for 35 years and only just recentlly hit $30....

[Lilith Velkor]

112. Howdy and welcome to DU!

:hi:

It wouldn't need to be raised that high if we had decent public transportation systems, affordable housing, and healthcare. The "everybody needs a car" mentality has GOT to go, not only for the environment's sake, but for the reduction of stress from having to sit in traffic all the damn time.

[DocSavage]

118. how about 100.00

that way I can get a $200 per hour raise so my pay stays the same percentage above minimum as now. Are you so dangerous to republicans that you cannot even post on a board?

[Morereason]

223. Welcome.. but this would not help

I hope that was tongue in cheek.

[citizen snips]

75. I agree

that is not a crazy idea at all.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

77. It would be nice if they put in a provision to raise it more in the future

I know that it's too much to expect it to go up to $10 in the first raise, but to plan on getting it there in the next two years would be great.

For those who think this is too high, read Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed". It will open they eyes of those who've been fortunate enough to never have to survive on minimum wage.

Poverty, and the desperation brought on by not being able to end it, is eating away at a far too many Americans.

[porphyrian]

81. Considering it hasn't been raised in a decade...

I mean, what is the cost of living increase in that time period? I think $10 an hour is probably right, if we have to pick a single number. Personally, I think the minimum wage should be a percentage of the cost of living in an area, but I doubt that would fly.

[meldroc]

85. Set minimum wage to the living wage, then index with inflation yearly.

Colorado just passed an amendment raising its minimum wage to 6.85/hour, also raising the minimum wage for those who earn tips by a similar amount, and requiring that the minimum wage be adjusted for inflation each year.

It's a good start, but 6.85/hr is still too little to support yourself. Living wage in Fort Collins, CO is around $10.25 - $12.29/hr, depending on the calculations - that's how much it costs to live decently here.

The minimum wage should be much closer to the living wage, if not equivalent to the living wage. Also, the minimum wage should vary from place to place, depending on the local cost of living, so New York City would likely have a much higher wage than Fort Collins, Colorado, because cost of living in New York City is higher.

[4dsc]

86. According to CEO's salary increases

minimun wage should be at least $41/hour based upon the average CEO salary increases over the past two decades..

[kiahzero]

89. I think there are better ways to fix this than the minimum wage.

The problem with a minimum wage is that it puts some jobs in the position that they are not worth the cost of the employee - if you have a position that, without the minimum wage, would only pay $2 / hour, it may not even be reasonable to have someone do that job anymore, because it's now a net loss to pay that person. It also puts all of the costs on the employer, when it would make far more sense to spread that burden across all of society.

I support minimum wage hikes now, since we don't have a better system. However, I think it would be far better if we moved towards a system where reaching a minimum income comes with help from the government (as the agent of society at large), not from forcing the employer to raise wages.

[ecstatic]

92. That will hurt small businesses. Actually I think it should depend on the corporation

A billion dollar corporation should probably start rates at about $10.00. It also depends on the state and the cost of living in that state. I say this as part owner of a small business. We start at 7.50 (that's the lowest wage, its actually paid to a part time teen who helps around the office).

[Morereason]

224. Why? Your Wal-Mart competitors just lost a primary item that keeps you out of business?

Think about it. I know it is hard to imagine. But the Big Box corps thrive on lowering wages. That is their primary cost of doing business.

YOU WILL GAIN THE ADVANTAGE!!

You need not be fearful based on the propaganda that we have all been fed. Think it all the way through. This would be a HUGE win for small business!

[Jed Dilligan]

93. Slaves actually cost more.

The story of capitalism is the story of increasingly efficient exploitation of people.

[warrens]

98. A tiered minimum wage works for me

A guy supporting a family can't live on $7 (or probably $10 for that matter), but a 17 year old drop out working for beer money is another story.

[hedgehog]

100. We have to increase the minimum wage but also step back and

figure out how to spread the benefits of mass production more evenly about the economy. I can make a thousand widgets an hour using a machine or I can clean so many toilets. Those toilets have to be cleaned one way or another, and society depends on me or someone like me to do that job, so shouldn't I be able to afford some widgets when I'm done working my tail off? The point is that there are a lot of jobs ranging from picking strawberries to bathing an elderly person that just can't be done by machine, can't be done any faster and must be done. They are more vital to our society than any CEO position.

[Swamp Rat]

102. Too low

$15 is more equitable.

[rman]

103. if indexed to CEO's salaries since 1990, minimum wage would be $23.03

(thanks to some other DU-er for this post)


http://warrenreports.tpmcafe.com/blog/warrenreports/2006/oct/26/if_not_us_then_who
If Not Us, Then Who?
By Andy Stern

....

We are living in a time when the stock market is at record highs, the economy is growing, and the Fortune 400 CEOs are all billionaires. If the minimum wage had been indexed to CEO's salaries since 1990, it would be would be $23.03. The share of income today going to profits is at a record highs while the share of wages is at a record low. America needs a new economic plan.

[westy1080]

122. And that validates my point

Minimum wage wasn't enough back then and with that $23.03 figure, it just shows you that a $30-40/hr minimum wage is what we really need.

[Heywood J]

105. Something that isn't going to make me popular, but

it's the other side of the coin and deserves to be said as well.

I currently make a wage not too far removed from the proposal here. I've also worked my ass off for six years in the same job to make it up from where I started. What sort of a message does that send if someone can just step in off the street at the "new $10 minimum wage" and make what everyone else there with experience and hard work make?

That doesn't sound very equitable to me. It doesn't sound rewarding at all, nor does it sound like it will encourage existing workers. The other thing about it is that you'd be basically creating an instantaneous doubling of labor costs to some businesses and an sizeable (but less than 50%) instantaneous hike in others.

That would be quite a shock to most small employers and places that operate on a shoestring. Your average multinational could absorb it, if forced to, but there are far too many shops that couldn't without resorting to desperate measures (e.g. downsizing) or folding. If you're going to raise the wage any sizeable amount, it would be a far better idea to raise it in steps. Something like forty or fifty cents a year - but even then, this solution runs into the problem of obliterating the raises of others.




I've read through the entire thread up until now, and I've seen people saying "well, raise your prices", etc. To my mind, that just makes the products all that more expensive to the consumers whose wages have just been raised. It also takes a bigger bite out of the rest of the consumer base, whose expenses will jump overnight as well.

If I were a cashier, or something, making a living on $6/hour and living off instant noodles or Kraft Dinner, I'd greatly appreciate the raise. I wouldn't appreciate that the cost of buying said food also went up and gobbled a larger portion of my paycheck. Unfortunately, every "raise your prices" solution is only going to spur inflation.





The other theme running through this thread is that you can't support a family or a sick dependent on minimum wage. You were never supposed to be able to. I think that in a way, it's a triumph of ingenuity that people have adapted to do it, but that's not the intent of the wage. If you have a family or other dependents, then you should be instead putting pressure on your new representatives to enact policies of job creation and retention.

Look back forty years to the time when the economy really was booming. What did we have then that we don't have now? Among other things, we had so many more blue-collar jobs that no longer exist here. How many auto plants, for example, have closed and moved production to Mexico? How many manufacturing or tech jobs have been outsourced to India or China in the last ten or twenty years?

You'd probably do a hell of a lot better if your new representative or senator helps re-attract some of those outsourced manufacturing jobs than if you were endlessly subsisting on minimum wage, whatever that may be. Find a way to force larger corporations to bring jobs back on-shore and you might be on a better track.

At least to me, that seems to me to be a better solution than to keep the economy on life-support. That, to me, seems to be the only way to really fix what has gone wrong, in terms of leaving so many people in min-wage jobs in the first place. Bring back and/or create better jobs, such that people aren't working for minimum wage or working two or three jobs.




Increase the minimum wage, by all means - it's a problem. But find a fair way to do it - no slapdash, half-assed "solutions" that make matters worse.

[The Straight Story]

125. Let me reply to that:

I work in the IT field. The last company I worked for several years back, I was making 45k and my boss who had been there for some time was making 52K.

So along comes an opening for another management position within the group (ie, expansion created a new need). My boss was told he could apply for the job of course, but his pay would not change (duties would some, more project management stuff). But - they were advertising it as an 80k/year job - which they gave the person they hired in.

It is the same in my current job. We might have techs that started out at 52k and make 3% more per year, but then we will hire in someone new at 70-75k. Without raising everyone else's wages to that level.

The old adage in the corporate world - if you want to get a big raise - quit and come back.

Companies worry less about keeping people in place and more about attracting new talent. And the HR dept is a huge problem in many of these companies. They set the wages for new jobs and won't allow managers to raise their employees' wages by big amounts.

If I quit my job now I could probably find another in the field making 10k+ more. It has crossed my mind, especially since I am off work to take care of my wife and FMLA does not pay you for taking time off for medical reasons.

[judaspriestess]

107. companies will simply cut the employees hours and they will

be back to earning $5.85 an hour when it all averages out.

[Pithlet]

114. It should rise along with the cost of living.

The current proposal to raise it is better than nothing, but it still won't do much good if it will sit at that rate for the next 15 years. Businesses have to factor the rise of other costs of doing business. The cost of labor shouldn't be an exception. I'm for a living wage.

[TheFarseer]

120. I was thinking more like $5.50 or $6

so that we can get something through without a big fuss. That's a raise of $728 or 1,768.00 over the whole year. I know it's still crappy but getting $7+ is going to be hard and normal everyday, non-mega-rich people with concerns about how it would effect the economy would be upset. Standing up against a raise of 35-85 cents just looks petty and stupid. That's my 2 cents.

[undergroundpanther]

124. Tax the rich

so they can't buy our government, and get corporations off welfare , and cap ceo/upper management pay.We need to get RID of "corporate personhood"..If we did this..you'd be amazed how much money this would free up for doing the public good.
People have got to STOP the everyone needs a car bullshit and invest in good public transport, and they need to stop letting the big companies exploit the little businesses with fears that do not apply.The little businesses need to put pressure on the big ones to change and be FAIR..The rich need to be pulled out of the trough and told enough is enough.

No one should go without in a country with as much wealth as this one has accumulated. Problem is it's all in very few pockets and those few pockets hoard it as if THEY deserve it, which they don't. These Ceo's they are no more worthy than anyone else is in reality.Their work is not so valuable.A ceo is useless if your toilet won't work or you need food.For this sort of economic inequality to thrive as it has,Someone somewhere has been permitted to be a real pig.And the CEO's are pigs , they are so damn fat now,that people believe their voodoo bullshit propagated by reagan,even against their own interests they believe this bullshit and let the Ceo piss all over them almost like they believe they are worthless.Ceo hogs, need to go to slaughter,and must get some of that wealth taken off their idle hands before they consume everything in sight and crush civilization itself sucking by the marrow of our bones dry. IMHO, a corporation is in action like a psychopath, and psychopaths because they see nothing wrong with themselves, like a corporation sees nothing wrong with robbing the workers to feed the richest of pigs ,they need to be limited , watched,restrained, capped and controlled lest they hurt someone with that greed and ambition..

[DocSavage]

159. What are you

going to do about the 20% unemployment that your "plan" will create?

[undergroundpanther]

176. Unemployed Ceos?

They can take jobs swabbing toilets or picking oranges can't they or have they convinced themselves they are above that sorta of work?.. And BTW the "economy" is a scam the whole thing..it began long ago when bullies decided if they could control and distribute (read con and extort people)to let them own and dominate what this earth gives for free they'd live like kings and be exempted from the suffering the majority of the world faces, due to their greed. We don't even own the bodies we inhabit..Think. If you let yourself see beyond your own paradigms you see other options than the one we got that isn't working.

[DocSavage]

190. unemployeed CEO's mean

corporations out of business, companies closed. No work, unemployment like you have never seen. But, your "scam" economy will no longer exist so you will be happy.

[Morereason]

226. Please, the fear is palpable...

The corporations are not going to go anywhere if their CEO's pay higher taxes. Surpise! Most of them will stay in the job even if you double their taxes. Execs are not going to leave their high paid careers because they are only netting $150 million now instead of $300 million.

It *might* force them to be more competitive, and increasing minimum wages might leave a gap that... oh oh!!! Small businesses might be able to become competitive!

No reason to fear. We have all been sold assumptions really meant to put the fear in us so we don't ask for better. Our current economic theories are entirely dishonest.

[incapsulated]

130. Doesn't sound crazy at all to me

Although it not will be raised that high.

[laylah]

131. A few years back lawmakers in Oregon

agreed to live like some of their poorest constituents. The story I remember the most is the one of a male lawmaker who "shadowed" the life of a welfare mom. He lived on the amount that she was "given", he kept her hours, he took care of all of the his kids, went to work, picked the kids up, went home, fixed supper, did laundry, etc. Whatever the bill was that prompted this exercise, passed with flying colors.

If others would walk in the shoes of us that go week to week, hell, day to day, I truly believe minimum wage would be no less than $13 an hour!

Jenn

[Red Right and BLUE]

133. I agree. Not crazy at all.

[emdee]

136. I just found a really good site....

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage

That site contains links to much info.

I think it should be raised at least as much as inflation has risen!

emdee

[boolean]

137. CRAZY? It ought to be higher

10 an hour is barely enough to make ends meet.

[Hippo_Tron]

138. $9 or $10 is good but it needs to be a gradual increase

The argument that people can advance works in some cases but not in all. If the GOP had just allowed provisions for the minimum wage to increase with inflation back in the 1990s then we wouldn't even be talking about this.

[Bluerthanblue]

140. Not Crazy at all- a living wage for workers in the US shouldn't be

seen as 'crazy'- If we can't as a society provide our workers with a 'living wage'-then our society is doomed to continual strife, sickness, high crime rates, and abuse-

If 'we' are supposed to be the "best country in the world"- that should be true for even the 'least' of our citizens- is it?

Not from what I see and experience-

I don't think you are crazy- I think you are enlightened- and wise.

[Nicole]

141. $10 at least n/t

[Initech]

144. Minimum wage should be $40 / hour in California

Seriously. I cant even afford a shack in south central Los Angeles on $10 / hr, which is what I make now. :grr:

[bobbolink]

146. THank you!! Maybe someday compassion and concern will return

to the US.

Practically a slave wage??

I don't have the URL right now, but there's a really neat short video on the Catholic Bishops' website, which shows that there's no way people can live on minimum wage. I hope you can find it, because it's very clear!

[frustrated_lefty]

147. Devil's advocate:

If you can't support kids on less than $10/hr, then why don't you stop breeding?

[Morereason]

227. lefty, why do I feel like you accept Darwinian Socialism, AKA the law of the jungle???

Surely you are jesting right? Most progressives want to see population steadied, but those "minimum wage "bums" (you seem to think of them as), could very well be far saner than what our society values. And besides, who are we to decide that one "skillset" is worthy of "death and despair" and another worthy of "reproduction"?

Darwinian Socialism (which is what your "Devils advocate" comment expressed), is not a civilized concept. Hitler believed in it... Progressives pretty much do not, or should not?

[bobbolink]

148. Actually, Santa Fe came close a couple of years ago.

I think they're up to almost $9 an hour now, and it will raise again.. I think next year.

And, yanno what, the city is doing just fine! :hi:

[2Design]

151. $15/hr 15 x 40 = 600 which is half apartment rent for many

that means after taxes it still takes two paychecks to pay rent

[Prophet 451]

155. Have to agree

I'm a Brit. Here, the minimum adult wage is £5.35 an hour. By today's exchange rate, that's $10.22 and some fraction of a penny.

[orleans]

160. that's what i paid when i had some employees working for me

(unfortunately i had to cut back and do all the work myself in this fucking booming economy)

[Tigress DEM]

161. I think there are two campaigns. Minimum Wage & Living Wage.

In today's economy if the minimum wage gets up around $7-$9hr people can probably survive with getting tax refunds and some minimal assistance at the bottom of the wage scale, especially if we get health care going.

Living Wage, though, is about decreasing the distance between the educated or trained worker and the CEOs. Right now it's some ungodly ratio like 150-300% between the lowest paid worker in a compay and the CEO. In Japan it's something like 25-25% difference and the workers make decent money. Course the cost of living is astronomical, but those at the top share some of the wealth and some of the sacrifice.

Back in the '70s the disparity between the average worker and ceo started to climb up into the 100-125% range and then in the 80's Reagan started pulling all the struts out of the support system for the poorest of the poor and dismantling education.

Since *ush took office I think it's something like 250 new Billionares that have been created. So the disparity in that top 1% and their workers is probably even worse.

[stepnw1f]

173. You Will Get Shit From Primarily Those Who Employ People

not from me.... I agree with 10/hr.

[undergroundpanther]

177. Well make the employer remember what it's like

to be employee and remind the jerk in denial greed will get him nowhere.We don't need jobs we need to recognize when we HAVE enough.And let go of what we don't need. There is STAGGERING amounts of waste in this country.And frankly employers would not have any business if their workers decided the boss has enough and left to find a more generous boss or ijnstead grew in solidarity and relationships to the point they decided to say fuck this system and take care of themselves together .Business works to make us believe we are dependant upon it's systems,by compartmentalizing work as in seperating start from finish making creativity property and stealing it from the inventors and hoarding it from others.. The system is a failure if it worked there would not be such poverty. The market is all based in a lie..the lie of ownership.. for one to own more than one needs to be comfortable many go without needs being met and this is wrong, and this is why the market to me, is a result of evil. Mammon if you like.. it's inhumasne because it's not real..It hurts people.It corrupts, it damages.And if you thought deeply on this and changed perspectives you'd realize if those of us who are capable of relating and sharing what we know and have together(ie non sociopaths ,non authoritarian types) that,we don't need no stinking market telling us what we are worth.We'd already know..Priceless.We don't need no boss telling us what we should or shouldn't be,Life would be very different, times might be hard stuff can get scary, but I fear people are not emotionally honest enough with each other or in themselves to dare imagine a better way yet, let alone act on that desire.

[Heywood J]

196. .

You really need to work on paragraphing your posts - they're pretty hard to read as one large mass.

My content issues aside, of course.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

186. I employ people and I won't

"give you shit" but I will close my shop. Simple math.

[Morereason]

228. grannie, you won't. Let go of the fear that innacurate economic theories have brought about

That "big box" store will lose a severe advantage against small business. I do not know if your business will survive, but more small businesses will thrive with a higher minimum wage.

Our economic ideologies and statistical methods are dark age and full of corporate "vodoo" meant to scare the crap out of the common man.

[Morereason]

235. kick for feedback

[Bryn]

175. Try $15 an hour in Miami, FL

I made $17 an hour in Miami, yet I was struggling because of high costs of living there..especially insurance companies overcharging you for car & house. I moved to Arkansas as soon as I took an early retirement.

[Pushed To The Left]

180. Considering the cost of living these days, $10 an hour really isn't extreme at all!

The wages for working people need to be increased, and/or the cost of living needs to be lowered somehow.

[Vanje]

182. lets trickle UP for a change

10 bucks an hour MiNIMUM.
thats not crazy.
Thats fairness!

[gollygee]

195. It makes more sense than "trickle down"

if people already have more money than they need, giving them extra money means they put more in the bank.

But if people don't have as much as they need, and they get more money, it all goes right back into the economy.

[Eurobabe]

194. That's not crazy, that's a LIVING WAGE, not even!

eom

[JesterCS]

197. actually.

If adjusted for inflation and cost of living. Min Wage SHOULD be $9.75

[Unvanguard]

198. Ideally, the minimum wage wouldn't be any lower than

at the very least, one-tenth of the maximum wage.

Unfortunately, raising it too high means a reduction in demand for low-wage labor, ultimately resulting in unemployment; as long as the present economic structure remains in place, a compromise between justice and pragmatism is necessary.

[trayfoot]

199. I tend to agree...........but

would like to research this more.

[Grebrook]

201. Sorry, but that would kill untold thousands of jobs, when raising the minimum wage

you have to take baby-steps. 10 bucks an hour? No one can afford to pay their employees that much. That's a hike of nearly 50%. That'll put people out of business or force them to fire half their workers.

Let's be realistic.

[Morereason]

229. Please read the new comments. There are answers to your concerns

Let's discuss more. I think we all labor under innacurate assumptions. We have been led by corporate propaganda and poorly thought out economic theories for many years. Our basic core economic concepts have not changed for close to 100 years. For goodness sakes our core economic theories do not even factor in (well) limitations to natural resources.

[entanglement]

202. It's high time to push for a 'living wage' instead of pathetic 75c minimum wage increases

So you're not crazy :)

[FujiZ1]

203. Nobody wants to fix it, then it's not an issue.

$10 an hour helps a lot of people, why not change it to $7? Throw them a bone and still look good doing it, in another year or five you can make it an election issue again.

[upi402]

204. depends on region, where wage is higher go by % above equaling

the margin in those states.

I dunno really. Hard stuff. But the more they give us -the more that gets back into the economy. I know that.

And less for the vampires.

[Mr_Spock]

205. I was thinking the same thing the other day,...

After reading this post, I think their should be exceptions for temporary school age kids & some others including the one's that already exist. An adult supporting a household should make at least $10/hr.

[Cleita]

213. Minimum wage was supposed to be the bottom line on

bare essentials, like shelter, food and clothing. Today, I figured out in my burg it should be $15 an hour. Yet, even skilled jobs here often go for $7 an hour especially for women. Men might luck out at $8.50 an hour. Minimum wage is of course at $5.15 an hour. Raising the minimum wage will raise those other wages that are not living wages today.

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

217. Call me crazy!

But aren't workers usually payed in relation to their marginal product? Oh shit I forgot Neoclassical economics has apparently been completely debunked its just one god damn giant conspiracy that it remains the mainstream form that econ professors grind into their students daily at every college across the country.

How did you decide on $10? Why not $9.85, or $10.05? Your number sounds arbitrary so its difficult to agree with you on that number.

While how mininum wage effects the market equilibrium for labor remains disputed another angle is not. Living on mininum wage with three kids? Possible, of course not! Though... if you sift through the data you'll find that the vast majority of mininum wage workers ARE NOT single parents supporting three children. Such cases are a minority, and should not be the focal point of mininum wage policy, I imagine there are far more economically efficent ways to help single parent mininum wage workers than to potentially disturb a willing and working labor market.

[Morereason]

230. Your crazy! (just kidding) but Neoclassical economics is full of innacuracies

What we have been "grinding out" in our schools is static, old, ideas. It is half based on ideology rather than science. Heck, it calls people out to be "resources", as if that is even a thoughtful and evolved way to view economics. It is entirely inhumane and will lead to complete sufferage. Just has it has for all the many years we have refused to update it. Our current "accepted" economic philosophies are entirely un imaginative.

Do you really believe that educational institutions move all their theories forward without cultural bias? How long did people believe the world was flat despite evidence to the contrary?

How about we discuss Corporate power in economics. How about modern Advertising. Modern "marketing" has completly evolved past current economic theory. New Market's no longer primarily feed needs, they drive needs. How will neoclassical economics compensate for propaganda, both governmental and corporate? How much attention does neoclassical economics pay to unique and limited natural resources?

And if it does deal with these things then why aren't we using those parts of the theory in the real world? Just asking.

Can you discuss why small businesses will not benefit when "big box" companies lose a severe competitive edge, namely low paid labor? Why aren't small businesses ready to fulfil the demand? And if some small businesses get smaller in size, what would be wrong with a net effect of more sole proprietors, now that larger businesses have to compete on a more narrow scale?

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

237. Good questions

I'll admit I don't have answers, I won't pretend to either. I do not yet posses the education, and I don't have the time as I should be writing a term paper right now. Your the first person to articulate some major flaws without sounding like some fanatic and for that I thank you as I'm pretty damn curious to know the answers to those questions now.

To argue that the economic infrastructure of the world was the same in the 18th-19th century as it is today would seem sort of ridiculous. It seems the firms of today do possess major control over both the demand and supply curves, they make up seemingly useless products, advertise the fuck out of them and make their market. I actually feel foolish for never having considered what now seems like a rather obivous point.

I will have to ask my professor. Can you suggest any good reading that might fill me in a bit?

[Morereason]

231. self deleted and moved.....

[leftofthedial]

225. I think we need a maximum wage

indexed to the minimum wage

(or both indexed to the same standard, say cost of living)

[Morereason]

232. This needs more recommendations. It is a great discussion. Kick it up!!!!!

[Morereason]

234. Bummer, can finally recommend and it says I can't due to time :p

Who made that rule anyway ;)
What a shame a good topic can't make it to the starred list?

[Workers To Power]

240. You're not crazy.

It should be higher than $10. Workers that are now paid $5.15 an hour and creating hundreds of dollars of wealth for their bosses every 60 minutes.

A practical example of this exploitation is that of a young woman who works in a factory that produces shoes for $5 an hour. Say this worker assembles the shoes by sewing two pieces of leather, which cost the factory’s owner $1 each, to a rubber sole, which costs the factory’s owner $2. Let’s say that the worker is able to assemble ten pairs of these shoes each hour. Now let’s say that the factory’s owner sells these shoes for $15 each, so he gets $150 for the ten pairs of shoes. The materials to create the ten shoes cost the capitalist factory owner $40 ($4 per each of the ten shoes), and the labor of the worker cost him $5, which makes a total of $45. But he sold the shoes for $150, thus leaving him with $105 in profit.

Where does this profit come from? It comes from the exploitation of the worker! If the twenty pieces of leather and ten rubber soles alone were worth only $40, how could the completed shoes be sold for $150? What increased the value of the leather and rubber pieces? It was the labor of the worker, who put the pieces together and created new, improved products, thus creating a value of $110. But the worker was only paid $5 for her hour of labor!

Through this example, it is easy to see that the worker was exploited through this process, since she only received a small share of the value she created.

Admittedly, this is a very simple example. In most real life workplace settings we would need to take into account the wear and tear on the machinery used (such as sewing machines and conveyor belts in a shoe making factory), as well as the labor of all the workers involved in the production of each pair of shoes; but the basic principle remains the same.

from: http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?175#4