Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

real reason neo cons want our military to stay in Iraq

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:37 AM
Original message
real reason neo cons want our military to stay in Iraq


it's not because of Iraqi civil war

it's not because Iran or torrorists will take over Iraq

it's not to protect the Iraqi people

it's because they need Iraqi land to put the oil and gas pipelines on that will come from the Stans to Iraqi ports.

(and it is because they don't want the Iraqis to sell Iraqi oil to non american oil barons)

the Stans are landlocked countries with a lot of gas and oil. only way to transport it out for US use is pipelines thru Iraq/Afghanistan (or Iran).

our military is dying for the oil and gas barons profits.

we should be revving up the alternative energy industries, not killing and dying in Iraq.

bring all our military home NOW



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. blood for oil. Even bush finally admitted it.
Our soldiers have been...are...betrayed.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. That's why Gates and Baker are stepping in.
Edited on Fri Nov-10-06 11:42 AM by sparosnare
They have to figure out some way to appease the American people AND get their oil. Good luck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. There is one flaw with your theory.
Edited on Fri Nov-10-06 11:46 AM by genie_weenie
The BTC pipeline is in operation as of May 2006. Most of the oil and natural gas from the 'Stans and the Caspian is going to flow through the BTC.

However, the oil in the Kurdish lands is one of the 3 main reasons for control of Iraq and why Americna forces will stay in Iraq.

The other 2 are: Defense of Israel and overall control/influence of the Middle East Region.

edit: typos
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. please explain "BTC pipline is in operation as of May 2006"
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline.
After the discovery of the huge Caspian Sea oil and natural gas reserves, a pipeline was proposed which would run from it through Georgia, Azerbaijan and ending up in Turkey. This would allow control of the pipeline to be exercised, by ignoring the Persian Gulf. Construction began in 2002.

There were many objections and problems. Protection of the pipeline from attacks and "terrorism" is difficult. Environmental impacts of a 2000km pipeline. Confiscation of the oil reserves by use of the West and Pacific power nations and the continued impoverishment of the citizens of Azerbaijan and Georgia.

Also important is the Azeri-Chirag-Deepwater Gunashli (ACG) oil field.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Update On Caspian Region. The Oil Ain't There
Following is a post from 'Petrodollar' in the following thread at peakoil.com. This poster seems to know what he is talking about (has written a book), and what I have read about the situation 'plots' with his summary.

I am reproducing the post here because it provides excellent factual information for the coming attacks (when TSHF next year) on why the Clinton Administration did nothing regarding energy independence.

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic21121-0-asc-60.html

On the one hand I can understand your desire to "blame" Gore for not publicly discussing Peak Oil until recently, but you must put history in context before you draw condemnations. Indeed, a lot more is known today than what was known just 8 to 10 years ago.

The first "authoritative" and analytical report on global peak oil that I am aware of was Petroconsultant's 1995 report “The World’s Oil Supply (1930–2050)” - which predicted that peak oil production would occur in the decade following 2000. (written in part by Dr. Colin Campbell). It is rumored the the CIA is or was the largest client of Petroconsultants (now IHS Energy), but it is unknown if this report was well recieved as far as the veracity of the data - but it is a good question for historians....

Anyhow, the one big caveat in that report I suspect were all the estimates from the mid-1990s until late 2001 that the Caspian Sea region could have up to 200 billion barrels of untapped oil, making it the “oil find of the century" - and push back Peak Oil for 12 to 15 years. I think Enron was "banking" on cheap natural gas from the Caspian and a trans-Afghanistan pipeline to save their company re their huge investment in India...

{For that famous quote about the "oil find of the century" see: Stephen Kinzer, “Pipe Dreams: A Perilous New Contest for the Next Oil Prize,” New York Times, September 24, 1997, IV-1}

Indeed, from 1997-1998 the US government and Taliban were negotiating over a trans-Afghanistan pipeline, but these talks were interrupted when two US Embassies in East Africa were bombed during August 1998. These terrorists’ attacks were attributed to Osama bin Laden, who was a “guest” of the Taliban regime. Former president Clinton subsequently launched a cruise missile attack against targets associated with bin Laden, ordered the negotiations with the Taliban called off, and imposed sanctions against the “rogue regime.” Any exploration and worthwhile extraction of the Caspian oil would have to wait until the landscape in central Asia become more condusive to oil pipelines, etc.

{FYI: According to Jean Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie in the French book, The Forbidden Truth, the Bush administration ignored the UN sanctions that had been imposed upon the Taliban and entered into secret negotiations with this supposedly rogue regime from February 2, 2001, to August 6, 2001. The Taliban were not cooperative, according to the statements of Mr. Naik, Pakistan’s former ambassador. He reported that the US threatened a military option if the Taliban did not acquiesce to Washington’s demands about a proposed pipeline route that had to traverse Afghanistan. But I digress...}

I suspect in the late 1990s and perhaps even as the Bush administation entered office in 2001 that the US government may have deducted that the "vast and untapped" Caspian oil would push Peak Oil somewhat into the future. Here's a sampling of the euphoria that surrounded the Caspian in the late 1990s...

Quote:
I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.

— Former CEO of Halliburton, Dick Cheney, 1998


However, in December 2001, just after US troops took over the capital of Afghanistan, British Petroleum (BP) announced disappointing Caspian drilling results. According to Dale Allen Pfeiffer, an oil industry analyst and former researcher for Michael Ruppert’s www.fromthewilderness.com website, after three exploratory wells were analyzed, it was reported that the Caspian region contains much less oil than originally reported, although there are vast amounts of natural gas. Also, it was discovered that Caspian oil is of poor quality, with up to 20 percent sulfur content, which makes it expensive to refine and creates huge volumes of environmentally damaging waste products.

In 2002 the consulting group PetroStrategies published a study estimating that the Caspian Basin contained only 8 to 39.4 bb of oil. Shortly after this report was discussed in the petroleum news sources, BP and other Western oil companies began reducing their investment plans in the region...and at that point I think the reality of Peak Oil began to creep into consciousness...

Despite exaggerated claims of the “oil find of the century” and predictions of a 'new Saudi Arabia' outside the Middle East, the State Department announced in November 2002 that “Caspian oil represents 4% of world reserves. It will never dominate the world’s markets.”

Unfortunately, this unexpected realization about the Caspian Sea region had serious implications for the US, India, China, Asia, and Europe, since the estimated amount of available hydrocarbons for industrialized and developing nations was now signifcantly decreased - by 20% in fact if you believed the 200 b/bl estimate. For me, the arguments regarding PO became more valid and convincing after that point, but it was only 4 years ago that the "Caspian myth" was essentially de-bunked.

Bottomline: I seem to recall a much more optimistic assessment of global energy supplies (both oil & gas) up thru 2000 when Clinton & Gore left office. Oil was only $10 a barrel in 1998, and talk of Peak Oil would have labeled Gore or whomever an "alarmist" at the very least, and certianly not helped in any future election based on what happened in 1980. (more on that in a moment)

Did the data in the mid to late 1990s support that Peak Oil was imminent? It's hard to tell until relevant CIA and/or DOE documents are released - at which point you will likely be in your 30s or 40s - assuming such documents will ever be released.

The only US President to really address the issue was Jimmy Carter - and every US politician believes that he lost his re-election bid to Reagan in part due to his "pessimistic" (honest) views on global energy supplies, along with that embarrassing incident re American hostages in Tehran during 1979 and the disasterous/failed rescue mission in 1980 didn't help either. Indeed, 30 years ago Carter stated something that no US politician has dared stated until March 2005 when Rep Roscoe Bartlett began his PO crusade in Congress.

Quote:
We are grossly wasting our energy resources … as though their supply was infinite. We must even face the prospect of changing our basic ways of living. This change will either be made on our own initiative in a planned and rational way, or forced on us with chaos and suffering by the inexorable laws of nature.

— Jimmy Carter, 1976


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thanks for the info and the site.
This should be a good spot to poke around for info on the Spartly Islands Oil Reserves, as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan Pipeline
Edited on Fri Nov-10-06 12:07 PM by loindelrio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

Basing your energy future on 1000 mi+ pipelines through unstable regions, both politically and geologically, does not a sane energy policy make. One of the advantages of the Persian Gulf region was the relatively short distances to ocean transport.

Also, this pipeline has been touted by the media as the answer to dependence on Persian Gulf oil. At 1 Mbbl/dy, the flowrate is a small portion of US consumption of 20.5 Mbbl/dy and the worlds consumption of 80+ Mbbl/dy. American media, monkeys with typewriters.

And one other note, the Caspian region fields are not panning out. The oil is located in countless small structures (vs large fields) making extraction more difficult, and a lot of it very sour. I have read that there is doubt that the 1 Mbbl/dy capacity of the pipeline will ever be needed.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. if Israel stopped murdering and oppressing their neighbors they

wouldn't need defending
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Hey, I'm just giving you the real reason for the Iraq War.
The Regime knew it would be impossible to sell the American People:

The War to Realign the Middle East, with the creation of a pliant client state centrally located in Iraq, thereby ensuring domination of the Region by American Foreign Policy whilst simultaneously providing cover for Israel and control of the vast oil reserves located in Iraq.

WMD is much easier to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think you need to look at a map.
Edited on Fri Nov-10-06 12:29 PM by yibbehobba
The only routes to Iraq from "The Stans" are via Iran from the east and Turkey in the north.

And both of those routes are much further than going via the Black Sea. Why on God's green earth would you ever route a pipeline there?

As for "Iraqi ports" there's only one, at Basra.

Really. Look at a map. Your post makes no sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. At the very least, to be able to influence the oil market
Remember, Hitler probably lost WWII because he ran out of fuel. They're real big on being able to annex oil fields if necessary. We're a hundred years from solar-powered tanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. I've recently posted articles about getting the oil and gas out of the

Stans and bringing down thru Iraq, etc. which is why I posted this thread

(don't ask me to find them as I'm not good at searching.)

maybe I wasn't understanding those articles??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC