I would like to see Lyndie England pardoned

[CatWoman]

don't get me wrong; I don't support the abuses she committed towards Iraqi prisoners.

However, it's clear as glass that she and the other convicted soldiers were just following orders -- orders which came from the very top.

I would NOT support a pardon for her if she took it upon her self to abuse those prisoners.

Responsibility MUST be placed where it is due.

[shortcake]

1. Me too. n/t

[hlthe2b]

2. Yes.. but the first one, I believe should be John Walker Lindh

He got railroaded, plain and simple, if you ask me...




(those who wish to flame me for my opinion, flame on... This is how I feel)

[TahitiNut]

9. Would you mind a warm hug instead of a flame?

:hug:

[hlthe2b]

17. I certainly would...

:7

[TahitiNut]

30. Oh.

Sorry. :blush: (Pulling back bloody stump.)

[hlthe2b]

39. snarf....

:rofl:


How about a :toast: (I'm not THAT hungry)

[Swamp Rat]

11. YES!!! ... FREE John Walker Lindh!!!

:kick:

[smalll]

35. Free Lyndie England?!?! And John Walker Lindh?!?

Of course, of course - those would be two really GREAT symbolic moves in the Democratic Congress's "First Hundred" Hours or Days or what have you. You send that kind of message, you lay the foundation for GENERATIONS of Democratic dominance. Majority party status, here we come!











(I really don't need this, do I? ::sarcasm:)

[Swamp Rat]

37. LOL! We are already IN the "Majority party status!"

:rofl:

WAKE UP! :D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[CatWoman]

44. um

I wasn't aware that the "Democratic Congress" possessed such powers.

doesn't the "president" issue pardons? since when has congress been issuing pardons?

:sarcasm: indeed!!

[BrotherBuzz]

16. No flames here

He was nothing but a convenient scapegoat at that time.

[Isome]

47. No flames for that...

I agree 100%!

[bemildred]

3. Yes. nt

[LostinVA]

19. Yup

[951-Riverside]

4. I would like to see Bush pardoned (if he's ever brought to trial)

don't get me wrong; I don't support the wrongdoing he's committed during he's tenure.

However, it's clear as glass that he and others in this administration were just following orders -- orders which came from the very bottom (The American People).

Responsibility MUST be placed where it is due (with the American People).

[razors edge]

5. They're coming to take me away today.

Pardon Bush? not likely, he was fully aware of what he was doing, the American people were misled by the M$M, prosecute them, and pardon the lied to.

[MikeNearMcChord]

6. For every year Lyndie England serves,

her NCO's above her serves three, her officers up to Brigade level serves five and those above serve ten. This is why I tell young people stay away from the military, at least for now, you are disposable bait for the politicos.

[TahitiNut]

7. I want to see John Walker Lindh pardoned first.

Can we spell T O R T U R E ? :eyes:

[enuffs_enuffs]

8. As Nuremberg has taught us...

following orders is NO excuse.

HOWEVER... all who were involved need to be prosecuted.

[TahitiNut]

What Nuremberg taught us was that those who gave the orders ...

... were punished MORE severely! To make the junior enlisted people take a fall for following orders and then let the ones giving the orders off the hook is a GROSS PERVERSION of the "Nuremberg Principle." It can only be morally applied when those in authority are punished ... FIRST!

[enuffs_enuffs]

26. Rarely is justice so orderly.

To say she deserves to let go, since her superiors are lacking in retribution doesn't sit well with me. It kinda gives the impression that since her superiors aren't being held accountable, she shouldn't either. It just might send serious messages to the lower ranks to "stop before ya start." Perhaps I'm being optimistic... but, there's the off chance of a an unstoppable well-spring of whistle blowing that brings the whole house of cards down. No politics necessary.

[billbuckhead]

10. Yep, Lynndie was a victim of the poverty draft and badly misused

One of the millions of broken people from the iraq folly.

[elf]

21. Unfug!!!!!!!! (it's German)

Remember her face while doing all these horrible torture? I'll never forget that dirty smile - she had fun got horny and jumped after that into................. ok I stop it now. I'm still mad as hell. There is always a way to say NO!!!

:mad:





edit: I want to add, that of coerce the higher ups should get the harshest punishment thinkable and I mean the very high ups! But I think, we can wait for that to happen forever!!!!!!

2. edit: this reply was ment to the original post!!! not to #10 !!!!

[Lautremont]

12. Surely to biscuits she holds some responsibility,

following orders or not. Otherwise, I concur. Higher-ups must be held accountable.

[Horse with no Name]

13. I'm torn on this

She could have refused the order and taken her punishment then. It wouldn't have been fair but a far sight better than what she has now.
On the other hand, and I am going to get flamed for this, she fits the mold of an abused woman and I believe her boyfriend manipulated her to do these things.
There used to be a saying of justice tempered with mercy.
She is guilty, however, not sure prison was the answer.

[LostinVA]

20. Agree 100% with your post

[EdwardM]

14. I don't know the whole story.

Was she just following orders? If she was following orders, she should not be punish in any way. The person who gave the orders should be punish. The captain should always go down with the ship.

[Codeblue]

32. No, No, No

She was just following orders really isn't an excuse for this kind of behavior. She obviously enjoyed what she was doing at the time, regardless of whether or not she felt bad about it later.

Not only that, I believe it is part of the Army doctrine to resist orders if they are morally wrong. It is your duty to resist those kinds of orders. Thus, she was actually not following orders.

In any case, it is terrible that her superior officers are not being punished far worse for issuing those orders in the first place. But there is no way she should be pardoned. No way.

[calico1]

15. I agree that higher ups should be held

accountable but that does not excuse her actions. I can still see the picture in my mind of her grinning over a prisoner. Sorry, I can't build up too much sympathy for her.

[LostinVA]

18. Me too -- I was just talking to my mom about this the other day

She was a bit of a dupe... she could be punished in a different way.

[Wiley50]

22. Me Too. You'd Like Joe Bageant's Essay On Her

"Mash note for the 'girl with the leash"

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2004/06/mash_note_for_t.html

[Wiley50]

23. BTW Did You Know She Suffered Serious Burns In Prison Kitchen "Accident"

Scalded in Kitchen Accident
Serious Burns over I don't remember what % of her body

She is persecuted even in prison

What a shame

[elf]

24. Excellent

a MUST READ!!!!

[UTUSN]

25. Well, only if Shrub-GONZALES-CHEENEE-RUMS will take her place n/t

[tabasco]

27. The Army teaches you to disobey illegal orders.

Just because all the higher ups have not been punished (yet), doesn't mean you let the lower ranking criminals slide.

[TahitiNut]

29. Nonsense. That's dealt with in less than an hour.

What the Army "teaches" is 'Ours not to reason why; ours but to do or die.' One of the specters that hangs over someone in a combat zone is the swift capital punishment one can get if orders are disobeyed. Tell a GED that they can unilaterally deem an order 'illegal' when it's being obeyed down a chain of command as well as laterally and there's no JAG for cover - yeah right. :eyes:

Newsflash: The Army is NOT a place where folks are encouraged to "listen to a different drummer."

[tabasco]

42. Baloney on your nonsense.

I was a commander in the infantry and we had to give Geneva Convention classes every year.

Plus it is stuff that you really don't need to teach, the difference between right and wrong.

Soldiers know it is wrong to steal from civilians.
Soldiers know it is illegal to torture civilians.
Soldiers know it is illegal to kill prisoners.

If the soldier breaks the law, he must be punished. That rule applies to all ranks and not just high-ranking officers. I hope all of the soldiers involved in allowing these crimes are punished. I am not granting clemency to lower ranking criminals.

Now take your uninformed "nonsense" and put it where the sun don't shine !

[TahitiNut]

46. I'm telling you my personal experience in the Army 1968-69

Less than an hour. That was it. Once. :shrug:
The attitude of absolutely every guy I served with was "Yeah. Right. Fat chance."

[alarimer]

28. Following orders you KNOW are wrong is no excuse

I hope she spends her fucking loser life in jail.

[Disturbed]

31. Pardon me but if I had a vote in the matter

I would not Pardon her but reduce her Prison Sentence. She didn't seem to be very bright and went along with the abuse and humiliation of detainees, most of whom were prolly not guilty of anything. She has been punished for her loathsome part. Maybe let her remain wherever she is for another year and let her go back to her town. Of course, I have no vote on this. I just like to type a bit here.

[Marr]

33. Absolutely not. They should rot in prison along *with* the beauracrats who

initiated these torture programs. They're not mutually exclusive.

I've no doubt that England and her fellow thugs aren't very bright, and were just "following orders". But they need to be punished, both for the people they hurt (and killed), and to act as an example for any future unthinking yes-men.

[Skittles]

34. mixed feelings here

Ms. England disgusts me as an American, as a veteran and as a woman. But it disgusts me even more that she was thrown to the wolves in the accountability arena.

[Hippo_Tron]

36. I don't want her behind bars until Rumsfeld is sentenced

She's still responsible for her actions and therefore I think that she should do at least some prison time. But I don't want to see her spend a minute behind bars until the real person responsible, Rumsfeld is sentenced to a much lengthier term.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

38. The whole point of Nuremberg trials was to establish that you couldn't

be exonerated for committing heinous acts because you were "just following orders". Otherwise you could have a whole nation of madmen committing atrocities at the direction of one mad dictator, and only the one dictator would be responsible. No dice.

It's codified in U.S. military law that you not only have the right, but the obligation, to disobey unlawful orders.

[Cooley Hurd]

40. Lynndie, according to experts at her trial, had a diminished IQ...

...due to oxygen deprivation at birth. In any civilian court (excluding Texas, of course;)), that would've been taken in to consideration during her sentencing.

[entanglement]

41. No. I hope she gets the punishment she deserves.

n/t

[nini]

43. She was having way too much fun while following orders though

She certainly didn't appear to be pained if she was just following orders. While I do agree she was a pawn in this to a point, she's not completely innocent either.

She's got a sick mean streak in her.

[USA_1]

45. Several Prisoners Died In Abu Ghraib ...

because of the torture she and others imposed. Under the law she cannot escape culpability. Therefore, all of the criminals who tortured the Iraqis prisoners (and please bear in mind that none of them had been brought to trial or proven to be guilty) must be held fully accountable for their crimes.

[FredScuttle]

48. Pardon this?

I agree that the higher-ups need to be held accountable, but this girl is a criminal.

[Imagevision]

49. Exclusive: Charges Being Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse

A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in abuses at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.html