Respect Women

[omega minimo]

Now that Speaker Pelosi is living proof that "balls" are not the answer and more women won Congressional seats nationwide, let's go forward with healthy respect for (all) women.

Whatever measure of her skills are due to her experience as a woman, Speaker Pelosi clearly is an exceptional communicator as well as a leader who brings people together. Maybe we need a new term for the return of "states(wo)menship" as well as something more apt and less crude than "balls."

More women leaders in higher visibility will show the American public that respect for women does not diminish men. As more people become increasingly comfortable with that concept, there can be more appropriate respect for women-- as women-- when the issues under consideration ARE "women's issues."

Too often people discussing abortion get wrapped up in their own opinions and attitudes, which are appropriate for their own lives, as if they have the right to dicatate or judge the lives of others. Two different things! Seeing the distinction is made more difficult when church and/or government leaders try to dictate and judge-- and tell their faithful followers to dictate and judge.

Respect for women means being able to seperate what you would do in your own family and what rights others have under the Law and under the Power of the sovereignty of their own Bodies. Only in this case, does anyone dare to dictate what health decisions can and cannot be made-- and why? Due To A Lack Of Respect For The Rights Of Women As Women To Sovereignty Over Their Own Bodies and Lives.

Useful discussion means recognizing the difference between the rights of others and your personal opinion.

Too often people discussing rape get wrapped up in their own opinions and attitudes without comprehending the experience of rape and the realities of abuse (of women) in society. Useful discussion is blocked by A Lack Of Respect For The Rights Of Women As Women To Sovereignty Over Their Own Bodies and Lives.

Useful discussion means recognizing the difference between the experience of others and your personal opinion.

Uesful discussion will be helped by appropriate respect for the rights of -- and understanding the experience of -- others and having INFORMED opinions based on facts. Respect for women means learning from the literature and studies that document what women discuss, not shouting women down because the facts challenge comfortable personal opinions.

The American People have woken up (finally!) and spoken. The House and the Senate have new (Democratic!) leadership. Let's raise the bar on discussion that can be informed, respectful-- and yes-- useful.

:toast:

[williesgirl]

1. K&R

[Cerridwen]

2. Yes. You said it beautifully. K & R since I have nothing to add...

at this time.

[omega minimo]

8. !

:hug: "at this time" :spray: :hi:

[Cerridwen]

9. .

:evilgrin:



:hug: :hi:

[omega minimo]

25. That's something

(Usual suspects here on Best Behavior)

:yoiks:

[omega minimo]

66. ,

[pooja]

3. Yes, I agree. It is time to re-invent this role of women in society.

There needs to be more respect all the way around. And women need to start respecting themselves and recognize that they do not need to portray a role that men define for them. It starts with getting rid of those ridiculous shirts and shorts/pants that trigger the eye toward demeaning a woman's appearance.

Women shouldn't have to feel like they need a boob job or work out on a treadmill 100hrs a week just to keep men's ideal image in check. It is time to recognize and respect ourselves and our accomplishments. I know that if my husband had to do half the things that I do, he would be crying. Let's face it we work, we keep our families going, normally we are the housekeepers, increasingly the bill payers, and a whole load of extras. It is time to for women to recognize our own value.

[Greyhound]

4. Same here, cannot add to this, so...

:kick: & R

[BlueJazz]

5. As a person with a Scientific mind, I never have understood...

...the illogic of not using ALL of a nations "Brain Resource"

[Kerrytravelers]

6. K&R

By the way, I love this line:

Useful discussion means recognizing the difference between the experience of others and your personal opinion.

[omega minimo]

13. TY

Ya know, that point gets lost in all the excitement while countless threads go down in flames
and some topics/threads become not even worth clicking........................



Here's to the future :toast:

[mattfromnossa]

7. I agree wholeheartedly....

but would add, "let's go forward with healthy respect for (all) human beings"

[omega minimo]

11. Respect Women

is the title of the OP and the context of the piece.

You can write whatever you like, when you have the posts to OP. Welcome to DU :toast:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. You're Right. Hopefully This Democratic Victory Is A Start Of More Respect For All Human Beings.

Welcome to DU Matt!

:toast:

[Greyhound]

18. I think you kinda missed (ducked?) the point here.

Still, welcome. :hi:

[newyawker99]

20. Hi mattfromnossa!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AZBlue]

24. welcome to DU!

[Cerridwen]

10. Kick....n/t

[hiphopnation]

12. om

I have thoroughly enjoyed -- and in some cases *depended on* -- posts of yours in the past. This one is no exception.

More women leaders in higher visibility will show the American public that respect for women does not diminish men. <--- It may even put us on track to be a more peaceful, humane, and progressive country that is less bent on intimidating the rest of the world into submission and consumption and instead focused on leading the world to conservation, cooperation, and *gulp* dare I say it...LOVE.

Sheesh, I'm such a hippie at heart.

Mother Earth Ma-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-n!!

[omega minimo]

16. Love makes the world go round

Thank you, hiphopnation23, much obliged. You are so right:

"It may even put us on track to be a more peaceful, humane, and progressive country that is less bent on intimidating the rest of the world into submission and consumption and instead focused on leading the world to conservation, cooperation, and *gulp* dare I say it...LOVE. "

HEEEEeeeeeeyyyy... those sound like "San Francisco Values"!!!11

You put it beautifully and so did Madame Speaker in every interview I saw post-election (Very good one on NewsHour) and sitting down with * and Dick Vader. Her dignity will inspire others and raise the same bar of respect.

Been thinking about the "SF Values" thing. Other states may not realize that one thing that defines the middle of Northern California is DIVERSITY. Of COURSE people have to figure out how to be tolerant and cooperative.

It seems we have a future again, after Tuesday. The vision you raised is the future and won't be seen as sappy this time around-- it's survival.

Oh-- and Consciousness Raising :evilgrin:

:hug:

[petronius]

14. Can we use "backbone" instead?

As in "Damn, that chick has a titanium backbone!" ;)

[VeggieTart]

19. She's got ovaries!

That's become kind of popular in some feminist circles. There is even a book called "That Takes Ovaries," but I can't remember who edited it.

[omega minimo]

21. Check out The Backbone Campaign!

http://www.backbonecampaign.com/

:yourock: :patriot:

[mongo]

17. I am sure that Speaker Pelosi will do a superb job

One old truism from my white-collar days -- every woman manager that I've ever had was smarter and worked harder than her male counterparts.

I'm sure Ms. Pelosi will be no exception.

[bloom]

22. I'm glad to see Pelosi in there.

:toast:

[omega minimo]

23. Hey bloom

nice to see you in here

[omega minimo]

26. There were signs it was coming, post-Election. It has officially begun again

Misinformed opinions and misguided strategery based on misrepresentations of fact.

It doesn't serve anyone here and sometimes appears to only serve the other side.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

This OP is a call for respect and for listening to women's voices here, considering fact over invective, putting the common good above the common misperception.

So much damage has been done by Limbaugh the Hut and his clones-- so much hatred toward women reintroduced and repackaged for public consumption.

Don't tell us we have to convince Fundies to vote for health insurance because "the #1 reason women get abortions is they don't have health insurance." That's insane and totally misinformed.

It's time for this Party and this board to get REAL about supporting women's rights and women's lives and quit worrying about licking the asses of people who (still) don't vote Democratic.

Anyone who is serious about "making abortion unecessary" will do the real work of improving social conditions for women and all of us struggling as the middle class continues to be disappeared by the superrich and the corporations that run this government.

[omega minimo]

27. We don't need "bitch-slap" on DU either

shouted in huge caps on the main Discussion forum title page.

[mopinko]

28. huevos-

i love this word. i love it's cross gendered heritage.
i am not a speech police kind of person. i love language. words that are despised have the most punch. i would rather embrace and invert words, and suck the power out of them. make them mean something else.

like this-

[omega minimo]

32. i love language too and would elevate the discussion

If you "embrace and invert words, and suck the power out of them. make them mean something else" it doesn't always play that way, when they are used, say, on DU without whatever "inversion" you might aspire to.

Then "words that are despised have the most punch," still.

[mopinko]

34. well, this clearly happened with huevos

i mean, there is nothing more feminine than eggs. but hispanic males covet the title. so it must work, to some extent.
i also think if i was gay i would have queer tattooed on my arm.
elevate away. but i think you are fighting a loosing battle.
how about the common ground of free speech?

[omega minimo]

35. yes, we're free to be common (within DU Rules) or to elevate

:bounce:

[mopinko]

46. good. i am proud to be common

i suspect if we met in person, you might find me course. it is who i am. blue collar, tough, unafraid and course. if that is a bad thing, then it is too bad.

[omega minimo]

47. common is good. sometimes we have to elevate if we want to get somewhere

[mopinko]

49. common brought it home last tuesday, imho

lenny bruce and richard pryor changed the world. there is nowhere elevated that i particularly want to go. life is in the dirt.

[omega minimo]

51. there's that

:toast:

[Solly Mack]

29. Nicely said

recommended

[wicket]

30. Thank-you!!!

Excellent post!! :) As an aside- I'm glad I'm not the only one fed up with "balls" being equated with courage.

[omega minimo]

33. Have you noticed

Ms. Pelosi wears balls around her neck? :evilgrin:


I was hoping DU wouldn't devolve back to old habits. We'll see. If we find common ground, we might actually get somewhere :thumbsup:

[wicket]

43. "If we find common ground, we might actually get somewhere"

Amen to that!!!

[BlooInBloo]

31. Sorry - I can't muster it up for Marilyn Musgrave... or any number of others....

But reasonable people of all stripes certain are to be respected.

[Marnieworld]

36. But isn't it all proof of existing respect?

If a woman is about to become Speaker, if so many women were elected, if the top candidate for the party's presidential nominee is a woman haven't we already arrived?

I think more people are already comfortable with this evidenced by the results. Only through the passage of time and generations will there be a full balance of power. I think the rights of privacy and personal control over your body are issues for everyone and perhaps it can be expressed that way beyond "women's rights" to "human rights"? I personally think that labelling things as "women's rights" is divisive or at least by definition makes it not a priority for men. I think unity can be accomplished by emphasizing our similiarities and shared goals not by dividing issues by gender. JMO of course but I see the glass as more than half-full right now.

[omega minimo]

38. Point well taken, however not this statement:

"labelling things as "women's rights" is divisive"

That statement is 'divisive'

[Marnieworld]

41. I meant

as opposed to human rights which would be more inclusive. Men and women have interconnected lives and what affects one affects all is what I was trying to suggest. Though on second thought it's possible to have both because there are issues that are uniquely women's it's just a challenge to have men see it as their issues as well. I'm more or less emphasizing your point so nevermind. :D :hi:

[omega minimo]

42. Good points. We're gettin there................

:grouphug:

[Marnieworld]

45. We most definitely are

I guess what I truly long for is a day when mentioning differences (gender, orientation, race) is no longer appropriate or even what comes to mind. We are all just people after all. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. ;) :grouphug:

[HardRocker05]

37. Hear, hear. dems need to get some ovaries! nt

[omega minimo]

39. www.backbonecampaign.com

:bounce:
:bounce:

[Cameron27]

40. Cheers

To Nancy Pelosi, to women everywhere, and to women of DU in particular :toast:

Let's hope some THINKING precedes POSTING and the realization emerges that sexism is always offensive, no matter what the context is.

Thanks for the OP:)

[omega minimo]

44. TY 2

gotta dream big :hi:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. Women *don't*, and shouldn't, have complete sovereignty over their own lives.

Any more than men do or should.

Living in a democratic society means accepting that if enough people believe that you shouldn't be allowed to do something then you shouldn't. Being a woman doesn't change that.

The things you're arguing for appear to be good ones, but the arguments you put forward to support them are falacious in the extreme.

I think you're making two errors - overgeneralisation and circular argument.

It can indeed be shown to be the case that women should have the right to abortion and that rape is wrong (although you haven't done so). These are examples of issues where women should have "sovereignty over their own lives and bodies".

But you then generalise from there to "women should have sovereignty over their own lives and bodies in all cases", without further arguments, and this generalisation actually fails - women shouldn't necessarily have the right to e.g. take heroin.

And you *then* present your claim "women should have sovereignty over their own lives and bodies", which you've (incorrectly) derived from the assumption of those cases, as a proof of those cases, which is circular.

[omega minimo]

50. No more-- and NO LESS!

"Women *don't*, and shouldn't, have complete sovereignty over their own lives. Any more than men do or should."

No more and NO LESS than men.

"Only in this case, does anyone dare to dictate what health decisions can and cannot be made-- and why? Due To A Lack Of Respect For The Rights Of Women As Women To Sovereignty Over Their Own Bodies and Lives."

"Useful discussion is blocked by A Lack Of Respect For The Rights Of Women As Women To Sovereignty Over Their Own Bodies and Lives."

"Useful discussion means recognizing the difference between the experience of others and your personal opinion."

The OP calls for heightened respect for women and improved communication when topics of discussion happen to be "women's issues." Most of the disrespect and pointlessness of many discussions is due to that "Lack Of Respect For The Rights Of Women As Women To Sovereignty Over Their Own Bodies and Lives." That lack of respect reflects an attitude of "not any more and not as much and even less than men should." Perhaps so internalized that the bearer can't acknowledge it.



As for your sementic dissection of the OP, your interpretation and assumptions about what I'm saying are "fallacious in the extreme."

The title is a clue: Respect women. Recognize the difference between the experience of others and your personal opinion. Afford the female body no more and no less sovereignty than the male body.

[stanwyck]

52. Do you think conservatives respect women?

I have my doubts. Many conservatives I know, not all, claim to "love" women. But they give themselves away. They refer to some women as "femi-nazis" and call Hillary Clinton "Hitlery". When you ask why the venom against Hillary, they just think "she's a bitch." Ask why, and you get no specifics. They don't know how she's voted in Congress. They'll mention "Whitewater" but when you ask what she did that was illegal, they can't answer. They'll say "travelgate" but, again, they don't know any details.
They just think "she's a bitch". But they can't tell you why.
Maybe. Just maybe, it's because deep down, they really don't like women. Or women like the intelligent, successful Hillary. It could be because she's a Democrat. But you don't hear the same raging hatred toward the Democratic men (except, maybe for Bill Clinton) that you hear against Hillary.
As a woman, it's unsettling -- that rage.
I can't imagine what it must be like to be a women in the life of a guy who has that seething anger toward a woman he doesn't know; and who is, in reality, a moderate politician who has been married to the same man for over 25 years and has a smart, well-adjusted daughter. Why is she the object of such anger?
Do conservatives respect women? Viewing their treatment of Hillary, I have serious doubts.

[omega minimo]

53. Dittoheads don't respect themselves

enough to form their own informed opinions.

[omega minimo]

54. Kickin for "Cxntface"

[omega minimo]

55. Safe, Legal and None Of Your Business

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2729021&mesg_id=2730260

[omega minimo]

56. .

[mongo]

60. You should get an award

for kicking your own week-old thread.

:crazy:

[omega minimo]

61. See #58

SOME people still don't get it

:puke:

[omega minimo]

65. "Political Correctness" = Reich Wing term created to demonize R-E-S-P-E-C-T

[H2O Man]

57. Well done!

Very well said, indeed! Thank you.

[omega minimo]

62. It was an affirmation inserted into a brief (gender war) lull post-election

Those of us who have live in the skin of The Other, whether "of color" and/or female tire of having it shoved in our faces by detractors who feel justified in doing so. On DU, most (except the rampant Trolls expecting a short stay) have the good sense AFAIK to refrain from racist comments here-- for sexism the bar is lower. As is the behavior.

It's tiresome. A poster criticized me here for kicking my own thread. Why bother repeating the same message, why bother crafting better communications,why bother suggesting "useful" or elevated discussion, why bother expecting to be treated as an equal for all the right reasons-- supposedly the same reasons that bring us to this site?

I've cross-posted "Safe, Legal and None Of Your Business" here and kicked that one as well. Aside from kicking this above the flamebait "Male Chauvinism" thread that mysteriously stayed up for quite a long time before being locked, why bother?



Thank you H2O Man. You always elevate discussion and those informative threads last week were much appreciated.

[H2O Man]

63. I always admire

your posts. Even those very few times when I view things a bit differently, I respect your ability to see the essence of complex issues, and to express yourself in a way that challenges others' thinking. Now, no two people think just alike -- or else only one is thinking -- and so not only do I enjoy reading those things I might view different at least as much as your posts I'm in 100% agreement with .... but I think that it's a good thing if others may be challenged, and even offended.

The tensions between the male and female members of our human family cannot be discussed honestly without being talked about openly .... and that simply must, by the forces of nature, involve some tension. I know that you are one of the best on DU in terms of making that a creative tension. We need that. And that is one reason I appreciate what you do.

[omega minimo]

64. I appreciate that

very much. I also appreciate the need for lowered expectations. I didn't come here to be a champion of "creative tension" b/w males and females. However, I find the "acceptable" level of female-derisive behavior distracting from other issues; like DU Rules say, it "cheapens discourse for everyone." These issues also are tied directly into the main broader issues we need to address, connecting the dots with "the essence of complex issues."

Thank you H2O Man.

[omega minimo]

58. Kick over that locked flamebait "Male Chauvinism" thread

:kick: :kick: :bounce: :bounce:

[TankLV]

59. We should respect EVERYONE!

Women as well as men - and hold them to the SAME standards...