Impeaching Bush is a joke...

[flvegan]

Or at least, I'm reminded of one when I think about the possibility of impeaching Bush. It's from "Colors" as spoken by Hodges, and it goes like this:

"There's two bulls standing on top of a mountain. The younger one says to the older one: "Hey pop, let's say we run down there and fuck one of them cows". The older one says: "No son. Lets walk down and fuck 'em all".

Now, I'm pretty ignorant, I admit. But I'm thinking to myself, my goal is total regime change...and we're 2/3rds of the way there. The last post falls in 2008, when we take the White House. As nice as it would be to see Lord Chimpserroneous removed from office now, today, is that the best thing? Appropriate and deserving? Yes, I think so. However, taking Bush down from his post because we might be able to now, is revenge.

What if...what if November, 2007, we initiate impeachment? One year until elections, and we throw that Hornet's Nest into the Republican fray? Considering that the memory cache of all too many voters seems to be the equivalent of a fast-food drivethru, it would seem that it would suit our country well to delay such a political climax until the stench of corruption coats the entire Republican party like a greasy film that they must wear into each and every appearance and debate. While they're playing "every many/woman for him/herself" distancing (or even better, embracing) their relationships with the Oval Office, doing damage control, shredding documents and squealing on each other, the jobs of our Dems is all the easier.

Picture it...every time Bush (or one of his close minions) goes stumping for a right winger, "impeach" will be the thought on the minds of the masses. Not great campaigning, if you ask me. "Corruption" will be the underlying vibe. The abuse of our system and the people subject to it, and the deaths of thousands of Americans and countless innocent will be a constant mental reminder. Impeachment will be the topic at the water cooler, at the gym, at the cafe, in the universities... It seems a more appropriate punishment for a party that ran amok, unchecked, leaving hate, fear and death in its wake.

I guess I'm like that older bull. I'd rather fuck 'em all.

[porphyrian]

1. Then you don't understand impeachment. - n/t

[longship]

6. Why didn't you make an argument?

You gain-sayed the OP without any commentary?

I want ChimpCo impeached, too. But, I have both an argument why it should be done (probably similar to what yours might be) and why it should not be done (not enough time to do it right).

I have presented both of these arguments in some depth on these forums.

I can put it succinctly, if impeachment can be accomplished within the next year and with unequivocal public support, Democrats should go down the impeachment path.

Otherwise, they should tie up ChimpCo in investigations, convene whatever legal proceedings that seem appropriate, then frog-march the whole lot of them out of the White House five minutes after Al Gore (or whoever) takes the oath of office in January, 2009.

[porphyrian]

How many times must we repost the same information?

And I wasn't looking for your approval of my post.

[greenman3610]

2. AWESOME.

everyone listen, here's a man that gets it.

[Dora]

3. Investigations are the first, and only choice.

Impeachment is an option that need be discussed only if/when investigations show that impeachable offenses have occured.

Debating the merits of impeachment now is fruitless. Impeachment is not a tool political strategy, it is not vengeance. Impeachment is a consequence brought by The People for illegal actions. Investigations can determine what happened, if it was legal, and if not, then we shall debate the merits of impeachment.

Until the investigations have ended, I think we are better off discussing how our Congressional representatives and senators can best serve the needs of the public they serve. I place my utmost faith in those leading the investigations.

[uppityperson]

8. if I could recommend 1 post, this would be in. Almost

Good post Dora, thank you. I have faith in those leading the investigations, but not my utmost faith since even politicians will be politicians. I place my utmost hope that they will investigate fully.

[Dora]

35. Thanks for the validation.

Politicians will be politicians, yes. And people will be people. We're all fallible. But let us not forget that we have morality, values, and decency on our side.

THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL.

[madrchsod]

9. so many investigations and so little time

it would take at last a year in the house to investigate. the senate would be tied up in 2008 with impeachment trial? do`t we have more important things to do than this.

[wildbilln864]

15. Thank you Dora...

I agree completely! It is you who really gets it!
Personally I believe that investigations will produce evidence of impeachable and even criminal behavior from the Bush/PNAC administration! Indeed they may be guilty of murder IMO!

[Dora]

33. I agree. We have good people leading the charge.

And as well, we have good people working to legislate for change.

For those who quibble and whine that investigations are a distraction from the work that needs to be done, I beg them to remember that there are 435 members of the House of Representatives, and as of January 2007, we will have a Democratic majority of 230. It is their job to work together at sharing the load of legislation and investigation. Investigations require the attention of a committee. The rest of our representatives have plenty of work of their own to do.

WE CAN DO IT ALL!!!

[yurbud]

17. so you dont think there are already impeachable offenses in the public record?

what exactly would count for you, home videos of the tard shtupping jeff gannon?

[Dora]

34. That's unnecessarily rude.

Evidence in the public record is not evidence that's been vetted by committee or presented before the House. I have NO DOUBT that Bush and Cheney are criminals, and that the public record contains evidence of that. I also believe that it is in our best interest to shape the case for impeachment by the rules and procedures that have been set in place by our forbears.

Anything else will only undermine our best interests.

[Imagevision]

4. 60 votes from the senate are required to pass impeachment rules

[LARED]

12. Shush, you will ruin people's Saturday afternoon dreaming (n/t)

[yurbud]

18. NOT voting for impeachment could be club against GOP

and not even starting them is a club of cowardice that could rightly be used to beat dems.

[Individualist]

28. link, please

[Ferret Annica]

5. All well and good, but impeachment can unmask

The false flag operation destroying the twin towers of the World Trade Center that works so well destroying an expensive white elephant that would have cost over half a billion to modernize, and created the Pearl harbor effect the Bush Administration wanted.

Reveal the truth, and no senator would dare not vote impeachment. I resolutely and without quarter want the man impeached. I have little patience for people who are willfully blind to the truth, and who would compromise over the impeachment issue.

There has never ever been anyone so deserving of at least life imprisonment in the White House, never mind removal from office.

The Articles of impeachment should be introduced minutes after the gavel opens Congress for business. Impeaching Bush should be top priority; thinking otherwise is delusional at best.

Nine eleven was an inside job.

[longship]

10. Two problems.

First, introducing articles of impeachment without hearings is unconstitutional.

Second, your presumption that 9/11 is an inside job has never been covered by any government investigation.

Both of these events would have to happen before the scenerio you describe could occur.

[Ferret Annica]

13. True, but I said "should be" to get across

the sense of urgency of moving fast. There is enough evidence right now that shows there is no room to doubt explosives took those buildings down. Nothing else could produce the manner of collapse of the three major buildings in New York then demolition, nothing else would have damaged the twin towers at street level and in the basement levels, nothing else would have produced pyroclastic flows of super hot particlized concrete, nothing else would have left molten steel so long at the root of the piles of broken building.

The original story has legs only by virtue of it's inertia, and the shear horror that our own people could have done this being so great some people need to live in denial just to keep their sanity afloat and rage in check.

I have a sense of urgency because what little evidence exists in government possession needs to be preserved and protected from shredding and destruction by he guilty.

The investigation the Bush criminal syndicate conducted was a cover up and done with extreme reluctance. A genuine independent investigation should be done as fast and ruthlessly as possible, and impeachment is a process that should not be delayed at all because the process is already too slow considering some of the reasons it is richly deserved by bush and company.

[longship]

20. This isn't the way it's going to pan out.

9/11 will not be the issue. Instead, it will be signing statements (abuse of power), lying us into war (war crime), authorizing torture (war crime), and various other unconstitutional behaviors including ignoring habeas corpus, and other protections guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.

The main high crime is undoubtedly going to be abuse of power, the Chimp's monolithic executive power grab, which is by far the worst crime which can be easily substantiated. That's the real test. We've less than 24 months to complete the process. Actually, if you consider the political hit Dems could take in the 2008 campaign, we had better have our impeachment shit together before the end of next year. Otherwise, we should seriously consider abandoning impeachment.

Incumbent on the whole process is public support for impeaching ChimpCo. Without that, the whole thing is doomed. People need to study Watergate and the Clinton impeachment to understand why this one metric is the most important.

The tact the Dems will undoubtedly take is:

1. Take impeachment off the table and make sure that everybody knows it.
2. Launch investigations on those high crimes and misdemeanors which show the best promise to produce results without getting entangled. As I argued above, this very well might be "abuse of power".
3. Public investigations will turn public opinion. If Chimp takes a nose dive, and if the public begins calling for impeachment in sufficient numbers, like happened to Nixon in the winter of 1973-1974, Dems should immediately initiate an impeachment inquiry in the House Judiciary Committee.

Now things get really dicey. The timeframe is crucial. If the impeachment deliberations and/or the Senate trial go into 2008, the public's support might evaporate. Also, bear in mind, that the Repukes are not going to be quiet about it. They are going to be screaming their heads off, further poisoning public opinion. And this is what's most important. Without public opinion behind impeachment, it will be seen as a strictly political move by Democrats.

The lesson on impeachment is this. Is it worth giving the power right back to the Republicans in 2008? I say it isn't.

That's why Dems have to be very careful if they go down that path. They'd better be ready to abandon it if things go wrong.

[solara]

26. Well said

Nixon resigned, not only because he knew he was facing impeachment, he resigned because he knew that he had lost his "silent majority'. Investigations had uncovered and exposed the sickness in his administration and its stench clung to everyone in his cabinet while America watched it all go down. I agree that public opinion is key. This is not Watergate nor Iran-Contra. The stakes are infinitely higher.

[knight_of_the_star]

37. Problem with power grab though

It's only a crime if he actually broke established laws, one branch of government taking power away from the others in and of itself isn't a crime.

I don't think we should put impeachment in motion, we want to defeat the GOP, not Bush, and distracting people from the presidential campaign with an impeachment trial would be all kinds of political suicide and put us back to square one regardless of what we do in the interim.

[pooja]

7. Bush is a criminal... The investigations will show his corruption and

his administrations corruption. This man will never be able to leave the US after his presidency. As it is the Red Cross has a list of coplaints and has filed in international courts his crimes. When they are highlighted, he will be thrown out. Everyone will recognize. We are all waking up. Some slower than others... The whole Shopping is Patriotic thing has really hurt everyone. Disolusionment can only last so long.

[stepnw1f]

16. It's Just a Matter of Time

Bush will be Impeached or stepping down before 2008.

[sandnsea]

11. Repubs were jujitsued

Their strength was their unity - but Reid & Pelosi used it against them and spread the stench of corruption to them all. That's what we need to keep doing if we're going win in 2008, make an indictment against the entire party. Impeaching Bush actually works to the opposite purpose. I agree with the OP, fuck 'em all.

[Old and In the Way]

14. I get it.

Let's do the Iran-Contra charade, only on a bigger scale. Let's become the Cover-up Party for the Crime Party. If we don't drive a stake through the beast that has become the Republican Party, any short term legislative/policy gains will be wiped out when the Syndicate reconstitutes itself. Have we learned nothing since 2000? There won't be any sweeping changes....there's no money in the cupboard to fund a new "Great Society" vision for America. Whatever taxes are raised to deal with the deficit/debt will be used like a club on us..... and that money doesn't fund change. Remember, Republicans still have 49 votes in the Senate and Bush has veto power. There will be no substantiative change.

We had a real opportunity in 2000, but that election was stolen and this administration has made sure that their true agenda - low taxes for the rich and continued dependence on oil, will remain US policy for the foreseeable future. IMHO, long term structural change in our domestic/foreign policies can occur only if we are bold enough to address the root causes of why we are where we are today. That means investigations / impeachment / indictments / imprisonment. SO there will be a choice for voters in 2008 - Democrats who gave the criminals a pass and accomplished...what? vs. Democrats who were willing to fight for America and serve justice. That will be a winning message in 2008 and when we get a Democratic President with clear House and Senate majorities, all roadblocks to a Democratic version of a New American Century will have been cleared.

[Hubert Flottz]

24. I get it too!

And you are so right!

[yurbud]

19. only good argument against impeachment is pinochet analogy

if they went after him right away, he might have had enough support in the military to go back to martial law.

If Bushies and their wealthy patrons are spooked, they might go back into 9/11 mode.

[boolean]

21. Impeachment is not about revenge. It is about JUSTICE

It is about holding these criminals accountable for their actions.

[flvegan]

32. The kneejerk demand I've seen

around here quite a bit, is about revenge. I'm saying that it needs to be planned well and investigated thoroughly, and if we can time it...then, all the better.

[Marrak]

22. The jokes is here...

<>

[boolean]

23. And FURTHERMORE, a majority of people support it

And when the Dems finally get around to it, (and I believe they will), support for impeachment will only grow. This isn't some blow job. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead. The constitution is in shambles.

[Disturbed]

27. The assumption that Investigations will take a year or so

may not be correct. It seems that Waxman and Conyers have compiled a whole lot of material about various crimes that the Busholini Regime have committed. Now that Dems will have the power to force Admin. lower level members to testify under oath it may not take as long to bring forth criminal charges and make those public. This process may not take a year to complete as most seem to think it may.

[Strelnikov_]

25. Do The Investigations - - Drive Chimps Numbers Lower

This road apple is the best thing going for a Dem President-Elect and widened Dem majority in '08.

Every Dem, at the conclusion of each investigation, should work the meme "Why did the GOP allow this to happen?"

I'm with you. Let's mosey on down and fuck 'em all.

Burn, baby, burn

[bridgit]

29. sure it's revenge...essentially, and many people here want it bloody...

and served cold & on the rocks; i have this alternate feeling that it won't be the slam dunk everyone thinks it will be, bush will show up with his $1,000 per hour per lawyer legal team and they'll tie it all up with smoke & mirrors for months & years (there's only two left for him in which to be impeached) till we all start spitting on our each others lips then what after his team lays a batch of dem sponsored, or somehow even loosely sanctioned articles on the desk, looks in the camera and says, "do'ya feel lucky, punk? well do'ya?" cause poppy's not going to let the bush family name be dragged through the gutter where it belongs

do i think bush should be impeached? yes

do i think bush will be impeached? in the fullness of time, yes...whatever that means with the precious little time left on his clock

do i think The Hague is a better, more proper venue for such matters as are the war crimes of g.w. bush? most assuredly

am i answering my own questions like donald rumsfeld? sweet holy henny penny jeebus yes, which is why i'm stopping right now

[JanMichael]

30. While I understand what you say there really is no chioce.

If, and I think we all believe this to be true, a crime of the magnitude for impeachment and conviction (and imprisonment) was committed then Congress has a responsibility to investigate and act.

I'm not certain if they have the right to stand by and pretent nothing has happened. That would be wrong.

Start with Cheney on the Enron/Energy/Halliburton/Plame stuff and move up.

If not then the system really is too shitty to live.

[WinkyDink]

31. Well, I'd be laughing, for sure!

[novalib]

36. J.U.S.T.I.C.E.!!!!!!!!!!!

Impeachment (and conviction) are NOT about "revenge" or anything else.

They are simply about JUSTICE.

Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Ruumy have ALL committed HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS!!!!!

And THAT is the STANDARD for IMPEACHMENT!

Good Gaia, if we just sit back and DO NOTHING, what we are REALLY SAYING is that it is OK for a President and a Gang of THUGS to LIE to the American people, and then launch an ILLEGAL WAR OF AGGRESSION!!!!

JUSTICE DEMANDS IMEPACHMENT!!!!!

WHAT GOOD IS GAINING POWER IF YOU DO NOT USE IT FOR GOOD AND TO ADVNACE JUSTICE??!?!?!?!?!??!?!

[sampsonblk]

38. Then there's that thing called Justice...

I understand 100% where you're coming from. But there is a right and wrong in this world. And it doesn't depend on the electoral map.

[Guaranteed]

39. Ohhhh man....NICE reference.

That's *exactly* my thinking.

KnR.