Chimpy said he would sign the Assault Weapons Ban. Let's make him

[billbuckhead]

Here's some long overdue bi-partisan legistlation that will appeal to the crucial suburban soccer parents and a reward to long suffering urban voters.

[Ignacio Upton]

1. I don't think you will see the AWB get resurrected

A lot of Democrats blame the AWB for contributing to loses in 1994, and our party is still trying to shake the gun control image off. If someone in our caucus introduces a new AWB, I don't see it passing in either house.

[Renew Deal]

2. I doubt it would make it out of the Senate.

[doc03]

3. That's what we need we win some red states, now

start the assault on gun owners!

[davepc]

4. Lets turn the car around and head back towards the cliff, why don't we

After all that hard work to get back into power, and here we are with people proposing taking up the same silly short sighted legislation that led the the 1994 losses to begin with.

I don't want to destroy the good atmosphere in the room or in the country tonight, but I have to mention one issue that divided this body greatly last year. The last Congress also passed the Brady bill and in the crime bill the ban on 19 assault weapons.

I don't think it's a secret to anybody in this room that several members of the last Congress who voted for that aren't here tonight because they voted for it. And I know, therefore, that some of you that are here because they voted for it are under enormous pressure to repeal it. I just have to tell you how I feel about it.

The members who voted for that bill and I would never do anything to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms to hunt and to engage in other appropriate sporting activities. I've done it since I was a boy, and I'm going to keep right on doing it until I can't do it anymore.

But a lot of people laid down their seats in Congress so that police officers and kids wouldn't have to lay down their lives under a hail of assault-weapon attacks, and I will not let that be repealed. I will not let it be repealed. -- William Jefferson Clinton,
State of the Union Address January 24, 1995

http://stateoftheunion.onetwothree.net/texts/19950124.html

On page 554 of "My Life" President Clinton gives the NRA credit for helping turn the tide in 12 house seats.


So hey, whats the best thing to do after FINALLY recovering from that brow beating in 1994? Well hell, lets take up one of the key issues that cost us Congress in the FIRST place.

That's some wisdom right there.

[jgraz]

6. Did we really lose in 94 because of the AWB?

I'm against the AWB for other reasons, but don't you think NAFTA was more of a factor in 94?

[davepc]

12. BIll Clinton credits it *in part* for the '94 takeover, and Al Gores loss in 2000.

I trust his judgement.

Howard Dean made the point repeatedly in 2003 when he was running for President that he felt gun control should be a state and not national issue.

John Kerry beat him over the head with his quotes about gun control....then went on to lose a winnable election.

Whatever happened to that Howard Dean guy anyways?

[billbuckhead]

21. As a candidate Dean couldn't carry a single state outside Vermont

There was no groundswell of NRA Dems to carry Dean to victory. In fact antiNRA candidates like Kerry and Clark easily blew Dean into the weeds.

How was 2004 or 2000 winnable with Diebold still under the radar? Gore got votes in Florida, they just wouldn't count them.

[davepc]

25. 2004 election....West Virgina, North Carolina, Montana

21 Electoral Votes in 2004.

North Carolina:

Mike Easley (D) 55.6% -- NRA "A" Rating
Patrick Ballantine (R) 42.9%

Bush 56%
Kerry 44%

West Virgina:

Joe Manchin (D) 63.5% -- NRA "A+" Rating
Monty Warner (R) 34%

Bush 56%
Kerry 43%

Montana:

Brian Schweitzer (D) 50.4% -- NRA "A" Rating
Bob Brown (R) 46%

Bush 59%
Kerry 39%



We easily took 3 governorships in "red" states where Kerry (NRA "F" rating) got his clock cleaned by GWB.

But nah, it wasn't the gun issue, or Kerry coming off the campaign trail to cast a gun control vote in the Senate.

Bush could of rigged every Ohio election machine to count every vote cast for any candidate count for him 5 times, and he still would of lost the election if Kerry was able to convince voters WHO HAD NO PROBLEM VOTING A DEMOCRAT FOR GOVENOR OF THEIR HOME STATE that they should of voted for him.

You have to be in serious denial to believe that gun control didn't cost him serious support in those states, and a few dozen more.

Howard Dean figured it out back in 2000.

Too bad you still haven't.

[billbuckhead]

77. But far more populous states crushed pro gun candidates, ask Lynn Swann

The unlimited gun rights crowd is on the wrong side of democracy.

[fujiyama]

66. It's tough to argue

that gun control didn't hurt Gore in '00.

States like OH, MO, WV, etc. all may have been winnable otherwise, not to mention his own home state of TN. Gore lost all those states by some 5 points...

Same goes with Kerry. I remember asking one guy to vote for Kerry, and he replied "Bush is a dumbass and Kerry will take my guns away. I'm simply not voting". I tried telling him that Kerry wouldn't be that stupid and he would have congress restricting those actions. But it wasn't enough to sway him.

And I'm sure this sort of attitude wasn't that uncommon.

[derby378]

68. Exactly

The goal, now that we have a Democratic majority in Congress, is to prserve that majority, not piss it away. One only has to look at the electoral maps of 2000 and 2004 to find out strong opposition to tighter gun control in America really is.

[billbuckhead]

86. That's a myth perpetuated by people who make money selling guns

One of the defining features of the 2006 vs 2000 and 2004 elections was fundementalist Christians in Red states staying home or even voting Dem. The gun lobby was just taking credit for something they didn't aacomplish.

[sendero]

105. No...

.... the myth is that any criminal who is willing to use a gun in the commission of a crime gives TWO SHITS about some pissy little gun laws.

Why don't you outlaw mosquitos, it would be about as effective.

[pocoloco]

15. Yeah! Lets do it! Just wait until 2009!!!

[ShaneGR]

5. While we're at it, can we ban religion too?

Just to make sure we don't control congress for another 6-10 years.

[billbuckhead]

10. Dowd: Voters sick of 'macho politics by marshmallow men'

"Republicans were oddly oblivious to the fact that they had turned into a Thomas Nast cartoon: an unappetizing tableau of bloated, corrupt, dissembling, feckless white hacks who were leaving kids unprotected. Tom DeLay and Bob Ney sneaking out of Congress with dollar bills flying out of their pockets. Denny Hastert playing Cardinal Bernard Law, shielding Mark Foley. Rummy, cocky and obtuse as he presided over an imploding Iraq, while failing to give young men and women in the military the armor, support and strategy they needed to come home safely. Dick Cheney, vowing bullheadedly to move “full speed ahead” on Iraq no matter what the voters decided. W. frantically yelling about how Democrats would let the terrorists win, when his lame-brained policies had spawned more terrorists.

After 9/11, Americans had responded to bellicosity, drawn to the image, as old as the Western frontier myth, of the strong father protecting the home from invaders. But this time, many voters, especially women, rejected the rough Rovian scare and divide tactics."

<http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Dowd_Voters_sick_of_macho_politics_1111.html>


The myth of the 2nd amendment protecting our freedom is long dead. Go ahead give Bloomberg an opening to left of the Democrats on an issue a large majority of Americans are for and let John (also hated by the NRA)McCain eat your lunch.

[Irreverend IX]

71. Yay! It's Cheney with a muzzle-loader!

I appreciate your stalwart efforts to remind DUers that the NRA (which doesn't come close to speaking for all gun owners) presented Cheney with that rifle. We probably weren't paying attention the last hundred times you posted that picture.

[billbuckhead]

91. Cheny is one of the faces of the "gun rights" movement along with Delay

Zell Miller, Duke"line the liberals up and shoot them) Cunningham, Bob Ney, John Bolton, Grover Norquist, Conrad Burns ad nauseum.

[ShaneGR]

85. 2nd Ammendment... a myth??

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.





A myth?


So if someone said the 1st ammendment was just a myth and its long dead, what would you think?

[billbuckhead]

95. The ACLU says the 2nd amendment is collective right

It certainly is a myth that the second amendment has protected our liberty. Gee, it seems the most fascist and backwards elements of our society are most against the sensible regulation of weaponry that the rest of advanced nations enjoy.

Anyhow here is what real protectors of freedom say about what the 2nd amendment means and doesn't mean.
---------------------------------
IN BRIEF
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control. We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership. If we can license and register cars, we can license and register guns.

Most opponents of gun control concede that the Second Amendment certainly does not guarantee an individual's right to own bazookas, missiles or nuclear warheads. Yet these, like rifles, pistols and even submachine guns, are arms.

The question therefore is not whether to restrict arms ownership, but how much to restrict it. If that is a question left open by the Constitution, then it is a question for Congress to decide.

ACLU POLICY
"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms." --Policy #47

ARGUMENTS, FACTS, QUOTES

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The Second Amendment to the Constitution

"Since the Second Amendment. . . applies only to the right of the State to
maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there
can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right to possess a firearm."
--------------------------------------------------------
<http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html>

[piedmont]

99. fallacious arguments

I recommend you try:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org

and read the sections "Guilt by association" and "Appeal to/ argument from authority"

[meldroc]

7. First, define an "Assault Weapon"

I suppose it's my turn to take the unpopular position here. For those of you who are screaming about those eeeeeeeeeeeevil Assault Weapons, come up with a dictionary definition of an Assault Weapon that the vast majority of people in this country can agree with.

Oh, that's right, we already tried that, and we came up with a whole bunch of ridiculous restrictions on things like flash suppressors, pistol grips, and magazine capacities that the gun manufacturers all weaseled around anyways. And the fact is that your grandpa's deer rifle actually has more firepower than that menacing-looking black AR-15. Did it do much to stop crime? Doubt it - most criminals don't actually use "assault weapons" - they prefer small, easily concealable cheap junk guns that they can dispose of after a crime without taking too much of a financial hit.

Can we stick with the status quo? Instant background check when purchasing any firearm, to block convicted criminals & other people judged to not legally be able to own a weapon from being able to legally purchase one? That and I can live with the Class III rules on fully automatic weapons - it keeps the riff-raff from getting their hands on them, while law-abiding citizens can get them if they pass the background checks and follow the rules (though I do wish it was legal to manufacture new full-auto weapons, within the Class III rules, for the law-abiding enthusiasts. I hear that full auto is better than sex at the firing range. :evilgrin: )

[billbuckhead]

11. "full auto is better than sex "

How can one respond to such a statement?

[petronius]

14. Well, I think the obvious response is "so, you've never actually had

sex, have you?" ;)

However, I think trying to resurrect the AWB ban would be a serious waste of energy, partly because it would seriously alienate many rural voters, and partly because the lack of a 'bloodbath' after the AWB sunsetted indicates that the ban was ineffective anyway...

As a gun-owner and a pro-RKBA voter, there are forms of gun-control legislation that I will support, but a ban based on misinformation and 'fear of scary looking guns' would not be a positive move...

[billbuckhead]

22. Scary looking pellet gun can be just as effective as a better real gun

Since so many of the gun lobby supporters think just the appearence of guns magically solves problems, they more than anyone would understand that appearence is almost as dangerous as reality.

[petronius]

23. Not sure I follow you...

A major criticism of the AWB was that it banned certain guns based on cosmetic characteristics while functionally identical guns were perfectly legal. That sort of irrational/ineffective legislation would not be (IMO) a wise use of our new control of Congress...

[billbuckhead]

35. The scarier looking the gun the more terror inflicted

The opportunity for law enforcement and civilians to make mistakes identifying the weapon like a fake AK-47 leads to tragic consequences.

[piedmont]

78. so you really just want to ban fear?

The scarier looking the gun the more terror inflicted

your logic is getting way out there.

[billbuckhead]

80. So pointing a gun or fake gun at someone doesn't terrorize them?

"We had a couple of recent cases in which police shot people who had realistic-looking fake guns. One, involving Milwee Middle School student Chris Penley, was in the news again this morning, when the Seminole Sheriff's Office cleared its SWAT leader in the shooting. (Read today's article here. To see a previous blog post about the case, click here...you'll get posts about this case, and some others in Seminole County.) The other recent case involving a real-looking gun was about Harold Leon Sherrod, who was found to have a pellet gun after Orange deputies shot him on Interstate 4 to end a crime spree.) Reporter Henry Pierson Curtis got the photo below of the pellet gun that Sherrod had, and a real gun that looks like it. Can you guess which is which...let me know by adding a comment, and I'll update after some people weigh in. First, read Hanque's report on the guns:"

<http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/milwee_middle/index.html>

"New York's latest crime-buster: muzzling toy guns
By Ashley Chapman | Special to The Christian Science Monitor
NEW YORK – Her voice is impish and feminine, but her gun is menacing. "Give me your money," she says through a ski mask to a bank teller in New Jersey. The teller hands over $3,050, and the robber and another female speed off in a getaway car.
But this wasn't exactly a Thelma & Louise duo. These robbers were 14-year-old twin girls who held up a bank with a toy air-pellet gun this fall.

Their crime added fuel to a toy-gun scare that's sweeping the country: Baltimore just passed a law that makes it a misdemeanor to sell a BB gun to a minor; Chicago has introduced a bill to ban toy-pellet guns; Wal-Mart recently raised its age restriction for air-powered paint guns to 18; and Carrollton, Texas, has banned the public use of replica guns.

And in New York, the site of many toy-gun fatalities, City Council members have introduced a bill to ban the sale of all toy guns - a ban that has not yet passed anywhere in the US. If the bill is approved, officials think it could help blaze the trail for the state, as well as cities nationwide."

<http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0102/p01s03-usgn.html>


"Pellet guns pose alarming problem
Our view: Why are kids even thinking of hauling these things to school?
Article Launched:01/17/2006 12:00:00 AM PST

The pellet gun incident at Davidson Elementary School in San Bernardino, where a fourth-grader shot at his classmates, bruising some, takes on a whole new urgency after a 15-year-old was killed in Florida in a similar travesty a week later.
The Florida teen, described as an emotionally troubled youth who had been bullied at school and run away from home several times, brought a pellet gun looking like a 9mm handgun to his middle school in suburban Orlando. The imitation gun that was supposed to be nonlethal turned out to be just as deadly when Christopher Penley was shot in a confrontation with sheriff's deputies and a SWAT team. He died Sunday, two days later."
<http://www.sbsun.com/tteditorials/ci_3408780

[piedmont]

88. It's already illegal to point a gun at someone

or rob someone with a real or fake gun. So what's the point of banning scary guns?
It's been pointed out to you that the AWB-affected guns diferred only cosmetically from allowed guns, and you still want to re-enact the AWB? Am I getting that right?
Or do you perhaps want to ban all guns, including fake ones?

[billbuckhead]

103. Like most Americans, I'm for a far stronger and well enforced AWB

Anything less would be weak on terrorists and criminals like the RepubliKKKans were. No one should be able to buy anything that even looks like a AK-47 let alone acting like one.

[piedmont]

104. Do you have a link for that "most Americans" part?

And why such zeal for banning things that look like an AK-47? Have AK-47 look-alikes really caused that much trouble?

[jgraz]

27. The real quote is...

...full auto is better than sex at the firing range

I'd have to agree that sex at the firing range might not be the smartest thing to engage in.

I also try to keep machine guns out of my bedroom.

[billbuckhead]

40. Unfortunately guns do play a part in many people sexual self image

"BuzzFlash.com's Review (excerpt)
In the war of symbols, guns reign supreme in America – meaning, owning a gun says more about your politics than how you use it.

Joan Burbick dissects the embracing of guns by the “gun rights movement” in her insightful book: “Gun Show Nation: Gun Culture and American Democracy.”

Unlike so many talking heads on the gun issue, Burbick gets it. She cuts through to the heart of the psychology of guns, and how the gun rights movement has invented a fear campaign – that someone, the government, is going to take away their guns. The symbolic meaning of owning a gun is to reclaim political power, demonize minorities, distort the issue of crime in America, express contempt for women gaining access to power, and distract Americans from the real issues of democracy.

Burbick takes on the role of an “ethnographer” as she charts her exploration of America’ s gun culture. Burbick’s journey begins with Buffalo Bill, perhaps the greatest gun marketer in American history. The gun companies took advantage of Wild Bill's heroic tales of the frontier, laced with political rhetoric to sell more and more guns – and it worked. After the Civil War, American society was saturated with weapons as gun manufacturers (read monopolies) saw spiraling profits with ever more savvy marketing campaigns. Iconic frontier heroes such as Buffalo Bill were integral to selling guns through romanticizing them.

According to Burbick, purchasing a gun proved your “manhood” and invited fantasy into a gun owner’s life – the belief that you could shoot the “bad” guy and be a hero is still alive in today’s gun advertisements.

Burbick’s book also delves into how the gun lobby co-opted the language of the civil rights movement and invented a communications campaign to make individual gun ownership a “right” when historically American society never viewed it as such. It took some time and money to convince the American people, but the gun lobby eventually succeeded in re-writing history. Just take for example the slogan used by untold numbers of politicians: “I support the Second Amendment.” What does that drivel mean anyway?

In addition to securing a “gun rights ideology” the NRA used guns as political weapons to attack virtually every progressive idea, especially on issues of poverty and race.

Guns do more than just shoot – they are powerful iconic symbols in American culture and have been used to label who’s in and who’s out – who is a “real American” and who is not."

<http://www.buzzflash.com/store/items/372>

[Wcross]

13. "I hear that full auto is better than sex at the firing range" !!!

Geez, I haven't tried sex at the range yet!

Full auto is a LOT of fun though. I have my eye on a 1928 Thompson I saw for sale on gunsamerica. 16,000 dollars plus a tax stamp.

[William Bloode]

18. Full auto is over rated.

Very inaccurate, only useful in numbers to lay down suppressive fire. After the first 3 rounds you're firing overhead in the air. Thats why the military did away with full auto on the M-16. 3 round bursts, and aimed single shots are actually much more effective.

[RamboLiberal]

29. I'm with you - the AWB was a stupid law that only

banned cosmetic features from certain weapons and did little to address the real problems of gun crime.

Then we had the stupidity of grandfathering in the law, i.e. the 10 round magazine limit but allowing hi caps produced prior to the law to be allowed (it just made great business for those selling the hi caps) and for allowing it to have a 10 year expiration.

All that damn law did was cost Dems seats and the ability to win elections till now.

I'm for sensible and tough laws if you get caught doing a crime with a gun.

[Wcross]

8. The majority of gun homicides are committed by criminals....

...using a handgun. Just how will banning these so called "assault weapons" reward long suffering urban voters?
If you want to ban anything it would make sense to ban the firearm that is used by criminals to commit 80% of homicides. Yes, we need to ban handguns.
I think we should give gun control a rest until AFTER 2008 though.

[meldroc]

50. Hey, I like my handgun.

I have a Glock 19, and paid quite a bit of money for it. I immediately got NRA handgun safety training when I bought it, and enjoy shooting it immensely. I have a concealed carry license. I keep it in a locked pistol safe when I'm not using it, and I treat my responsibilities with weapons very seriously. I've never fired a gun at another human being in my life, and hope I never have to.

Keep firearms away from criminals, yes. Take them away from law abiding citizens, hell no!

[jgraz]

9. Since Bush 43, weapons restrictions are off my agenda

I'm all in favor of background checks, licensing and training requirements. But if the Repugs had won this election, I'd be out buying a fuckin grenade launcher.

[billbuckhead]

17. You can't legally a buy a grenade launcher now

I'm for local real militias with real weapons, not the ability for anyone from a terrorist to a troubled teenager to go to MegloMart and buy the most deadly weapons.

[jgraz]

26. You can't? What kind of fucked up country is this???

:sarcasm:

[Wiley50]

16. If we want bipartisan support, Think I'd leave that one alone from now on

Besides. Bush 43 made me glad I'm an armed liberal.

They have used that issue against us for too long

[billbuckhead]

19. Pro gun regulation Dems did very very well last Tuesday& NRA was crushed

"Yesterday was a sea change for government in America– as we’ve been saying for months, our legislators simply haven’t represented the citizens they’re supposed to be serving. And yesterday, voters let them know with a vengeance. While there were many, many issues in this election, on the gun issue, voters were clear: they’re tired of gun violence, and tired of legislators that coddle the gun lobby.

As the Violence Policy Center points out in a press release, the gun lobby suffered a devastating defeat: “the biggest election disaster in 15 years.”

In the wake of the Republican party losing control of the U.S. House and amidst key Senate losses, the National Rifle Association (NRA) has suffered its “biggest election disaster in nearly 15 years” according to the NRA’s own election materials. In its magazines and in member communications leading up to the 2006 midterm elections, the NRA repeatedly warned that its “pro-Second Amendment House of Representatives” was at stake. And in a direct-mail appeal sent out in July 2006, the NRA’s Political Victory Fund declared that “you and I could be headed for our biggest election disaster in nearly 15 years” if Democrats were to take control of one or both Houses of Congress.

In the wake of the NRA’s electoral defeat, Violence Policy Center Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, “The gun lobby’s foot soldiers went AWOL in this election.”

Or simply didn’t exist at all. Violence is rising in this country (as FBI stats have shown), and in past years the gun lobby has been absolutely merciless in passing obscene legislation, giving the gun industry the widest berth almost any industry has had in this country. They’ve made it illegal to sue the industry, they’ve passed License to Murder in many states, and concealed weapons laws (something we already know the majority of Americans disagree with) have found their way to almost every state. America is tired of the NRA, and it shows in yesterday’s election results, over and over again.

In Illinois, Governor Blagojevich, a staunch candidate against the gun lobby, coasted to keep his post. In Wisconsin, where tons of the NRA’s money was spent (coming up with phrases like “Dump Doyle”), Governor Jim Doyle, who famously vetoed the concealed weapons bill there, stayed in power. Also in that state, good old Dave Zien, the man who proposed that concealed weapons bill and then bullied lawmakers into voting his way (they didn’t), lost his seat as well.

And all across the country, the NRA saw loss after loss after loss.

In addition to the House turnover, NRA-backed Senate candidates also lost in key races including Rick Santorum (R-PA), Jim Talent (R-MO), Mike Bouchard (R-MI), and Michael Steele (R-MD). In the two Senate races still too close to call, the NRA backed Republicans George Allen in Virginia and Conrad Burns in Montana.

And both Allen and Burns have since been declared losers in their respective states."

<http://www.gunguys.com/index.php>

[RamboLiberal]

30. Uh huh - but did you note many if not most of the Dems who

won are pro-gun rights?

Resurrect this dumb ban and I guarantee you we will lose whatever we gained in '06 in '08.

[billbuckhead]

42. NRA targeted Rendell got 60% of votes but A rated Casey got 58% of votes

Gee, it looks like an endoresment from the gun lobby is a negative in hunting loving Pennsylvania. The gun lobby also targeted Dem Governors in Wisconsin and Illinois with similar disasterous results.

<http://www.electionreturns.state.pa.us/ElectionsInformation.aspx?FunctionID=13&ElectionID=24&OfficeID=3>

[-..__...]

57. What was the vote spread in Montana?

Doe s anyone doubt that if Tester had been in favor of gun control that he would have lost quite easily?


The Senate and House could use a lot more Jon Testers...


Gun Rights

Jon Tester strongly believes in our Second Amendment rights. As a gun owner and custom butcher Jon made his living with a gun for 25 years. As a legislator Tester voted repeatedly to protect gun rights. In the United States Senate, Jon will stand up to anyone — Republican or Democrat — who wants to take away Montanans’ gun rights.

http://www.testerforsenate.com/issues


HELENA — They may not agree on much, but when it comes to guns and gun rights, Republican Sen. Conrad Burns and his Democratic challenger Jon Tester seem to have found some enthusiastically shared common ground.

Both men are gun owners and say they have fired guns in the last month — Tester a Winchester .30-.30 and Burns a .30-06.

Both men say they oppose any kind of gun control and they are willing to talk about what, exactly, that means to them.

Burns: “I support the Second Amendment. Period.”

Tester: “I believe in our Second Amendment freedoms and the right of every law abiding American to keep and bear arms.”

Both Tester and Burns said they oppose a ban on guns in the nation’s capital. Burns said he opposed a ban on any kind of ammunition, a stance Tester has also voiced. Tester said he opposed the Brady Bill —- a federal law that requires a background check for everyone buying a handgun.

*
Tester said he would oppose any efforts to bring back bans on assault weapons.

Both men also said they favored doing away with a 1986-passed cap on the number of fully automatic weapons available for sale. At that time, Congress limited the number of fully automatic guns — guns in which as long as the trigger is depressed, bullets will fire — to those in circulation in 1986. Since then, the price of these limited weapons has gone up. However, civilian police forces are exempt from the cap and recently Congress allowed certain military contractors to be exempt from the 1986 cap too.

Asked if he favored lifting the cap, Burns was blunt in his opposition to the law.

“I oppose (it) because it’s one more infringement on our Second Amendment rights,” he said. “Regardless of the purpose of the law, it’s one more step by anti-gun advocates to disarm law-abiding citizens.”

Tester said he favored repealing the law and would consider “any (other) piece of legislation that will protect our Second Amendment rights and help fight the war on terror.”

Currently, people who buy guns from registered federal firearms dealers — like gun or sporting goods stores — fill out paperwork that the federal government keeps.

Both men say they oppose the government keeping those papers as a first step toward a national gun registry.


Snip...

Complete article...

[billbuckhead]

62. And the NRA still endorsed Burns

Any explanation for the gun lobby's disasterous defeats in Pennsylvania, Missouri, Michigan, Ohio, Maryland, Wisconsin, Illinois, with more pending?

[-..__...]

64. Gee...

you think maybe that was overshadowed by the situation in Iraq and corruption in the Republican party?

Two years from now (and hopefully with the country heading back in the right direction), do you think
it would be in the Dems best interest to upset the egg cart again by bringing up gun control?

[billbuckhead]

75. Much of the corruption in the Republican party are gun lobby people

Cheney, Delay, Cunningham, Ney, Burns, ad nauseum.

America is becoming more and more urbanized and urban people are against guns. Because of the failed electoral college and voter suppression, our votes don't seem to count as much as people in Montana, but more democracy can and will change that. More innocent Americans are killed every year than soldiers in Iraq. These people don't seem to count much since they're often urban, poor, young and minorities.

[-..__...]

79. Cheney, DeLay, Cunningham, Ney, Burns, ad nauseum...

may have a voice for the "gun lobby people" (NRA), but the NRA has roughly 3-4 million members whereas there's an estimated 60-80 million gun owners in this country. Your statement/accusation is lumping in a significant number of people with a very small minority.

Your other assertion that the desires of urban dwellers should take precedent over non-urban dwellers and that a change need be forthcoming, is hardly fitting of a Democracy... matter of fact, it's down right appalling and disgraceful. A Democracy is supposed to be against the scenario you so enthusiastically endorse.

In that respect, those guns you so gleefully vilify and fear might one day come in handy. But, I suspect that it's unlikely that it will come down to that... the vast majority of Americans have more respect for the Constitution than you do.

[billbuckhead]

83. You're for minority rule, why be on a website called "democratric underground"

There are far more urban and suburban people now than rural people. You need to look up the definition of democracy.

[-..__...]

87. And if the whims of the majority...

happen to be in favor of gay marriage bans and/or restrictions on abortion, then that would be fine and acceptable?

What about the war in Iraq? The majority of Americans whole heartedly supported it for quite awhile.

I guess it was acceptable since it was the will of the majority?

A Democracy functions on the principle that the majority shall have their say and that our elected representatives shall honor those wishes, however when that wish is to place restrictions on the minority or for selfish gain, then it's no longer a Democracy.

[billbuckhead]

106. 30,000 dead Americans and over 100 billion in costs aren't whims

This issue isn't going away because the dead bodies and vast sums of money lost. It's one of those inconvenient truths. The majority are for legal abortion and are coming around on gay marriage. I trust the majority more than gun pimping neoCON elites.

[-..__...]

110. Yes, the majority are for legal abortion...

but not in all cases or circumstances.

What I was asking about was "restrictions".

By that I mean a total ban on late term abortions and/or parental consent/notification for minors seeking an abortion.

"Coming around on gay marriage"? I haven't seen any indication of that... at least not by the last two election cycles. Of the 8 states that had a same sex marriage ban on the 2006 ballot, 7 passed and 1 narrowly failed. Even in MA where there's a move to let the voters decide on a ban same sex marriages. the legislature killed it even though a majority of the voters wants the question on the ballot (2008). Given that, it hardly seems like the electorate is "coming around".

Once again, the wishes of the majority are not necessarily in the best interests of the minority.

[piedmont]

92. And that's exactly why Congress and the electoral college are set up as they are

this isn't a democracy-- it's a republic.

[meldroc]

32. I doubt very much that gun laws were on the top of voter's minds this election.

I really hope that Congress doesn't interpret Tuesday's victory as a mandate for gun control. There's lots of arguing about what kind of mandate the people had in mind on Tuesday when they voted the Democrats into control of the House and Senate. Maybe it was all about Iraq, or corruption, or civil liberties, health care, stagnant wages, etc. I seriously doubt that firearms legislation was foremost on the minds of most voters - there were far bigger fish to fry this election. I certainly don't agree with gun control, but I voted Democratic because I'm not a single-issue voter.

In the past, gun control measures proposed by Democrats, especially the assault weapons ban and magazine capacity restrictions in the Brady Act, have proven to be very unpopular. The gun control debate was one of the reasons why the Democrats lost control of Congress back in 1994 - the GOP framed the issue so Democrats were seen as gun-grabbers. Proposing a reinstatement of the assault weapons ban or the hi-capacity magazine ban will alienate a lot of independent and borderline-conservative voters now when we need them the most to support our efforts to clean up Bush's mess.

[PermanentRevolution]

34. It's not just independents and borderline-conservatives...

There's plenty of us leftists who disagree with the party line on gun control. To clarify, I'm all for common-sense gun control legislation, I'm just against any type of outright ban. But I'm ALSO not about to let that one issue stop me from supporting Democratic candidates for office. I really don't get single-issue voters at all.

[Jackeen]

108. The issue with single-issue voters.

"I really don't get single-issue voters at all."

You don't need to 'get' them, you just need to understand that they are out there, and will vote according to their interests.

The people that tend to be most in favour of enacting such a ban are the people who are almost inevitably going to vote Democrat anyway. For example, California. If Pelosi were suddenly to go pro-gun, do you think she'd see San Francisco suddenly vote Republican? Not a chance. On the other hand, in places like NM, AZ or MT, it's a definite issue.

Here's a hint from one of those 'swing voters' that you need to court. (Namely, moi). I'm not a single issue voter, but I am a priority issue voter. I'll evaluate any candidate on their overall merits, and vote for the best one. But an anti-gun stance will almost automatically exclude that candidate from my consideration before I get to anything else.

Other people work the same way on abortion or gay rights. As one poster just put it, you have more pressing issues to worrying about than enacting federal domestic firearms legislation which many people disagree with.

[Paladin]

109. So In Other Words, You're A Single Issue Voter

n/t

[NEDem]

20. While we're at it lets use that gun to blow our heads off.

It would be that effective.

[Jcrowley]

24. Whoa nellie you tryin' to ruin a girl's fun?

[derby378]

39. Sugar and spice and full-auto. Nice!

Once again, I just have to say it:

Keith. Olbermann's. AMERICA.

His first installment of the series was the annual Full-Auto Shoot at Wyandotte, OK.

[aikoaiko]

28. hahaha, this thread isn't going the way you thought it would, is it?

Dropping the issue will continue to serve us well.

[billbuckhead]

36. Gun pimps got their asses handed to them Tuesday

The NRA got beat everywhere, try to spin it all you like. The NRA admits it.

"National Rifle Association Suffers Self-Proclaimed “Biggest Election Disaster in Nearly 15 Years”


Gun Lobby Sees Shift in Control of U.S. House as Devastating to its Agenda

NRA-Endorsed Candidates Lose in Key Senate Races

Washington, DC--In the wake of the Republican party losing control of the U.S. House and amidst key Senate losses, the National Rifle Association (NRA) has suffered its “biggest election disaster in nearly 15 years” according to the NRA’s own election materials. In its magazines and in member communications leading up to the 2006 midterm elections, the NRA repeatedly warned that its “pro-Second Amendment House of Representatives” was at stake. And in a direct-mail appeal sent out in July 2006, the NRA’s Political Victory Fund declared that “you and I could be headed for our biggest election disaster in nearly 15 years” if Democrats were to take control of one or both Houses of Congress.

In the wake of the NRA’s electoral defeat, Violence Policy Center Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, “The gun lobby’s foot soldiers went AWOL in this election.”

The November 2006 pre-election “Choose or Lose” edition of the NRA’s “America’s 1st Freedom” magazine admonished members that, “Our recent victories and future legislative objectives are at risk this Election Day if gun owners don’t rally and go to the polls to support the true friends of the Second Amendment.” The magazine amounted to little more than a 64-page attack on Democrats, with a particular focus on House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee head Charles Schumer (D-NY). In the publication, NRA President Sandra S. Froman warned, "We are at war. Our freedom is at stake. The Second Amendment is America's original homeland security and you, my fellow NRA members, are at the heart of our national defense. But Pelosi and her fellow extremists, who are hoping to take control, oppose our national security efforts and oppose your Right to Keep and Bear Arms....Those who would seize power on Nov. 7 are unrelenting opponents of your values and beliefs...."

The gun lobby’s allegiance to Republicans shows in its political giving. In 2006, the NRA’s PAC gave 85 percent of its campaign contributions to Republican candidates while Gun Owners of America gave 100 percent to Republicans. In addition, Republican activists Grover Norquist, David Keene, and Ollie North serve on the NRA’s board of directors in addition to current and former Republican Members of Congress.

Just one week before the November 7th election, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre summed up the urgency of the situation in an “exclusive” interview with the pro-gun publication “The New Gun Week.” Warned LaPierre, “Gunowners need to get to the polls because the battle lines are drawn....e need to erect a barricade to protect the Second Amendment from the handgun control crowd....They want to unleash the ATF on every law-abiding gunowner in America.”

In addition to the House turnover, NRA-backed Senate candidates also lost in key races including Rick Santorum (R-PA), Jim Talent (R-MO), Mike Bouchard (R-MI), and Michael Steele (R-MD). In the two Senate races still too close to call, the NRA backed Republicans George Allen in Virginia and Conrad Burns in Montana."

<http://www.vpc.org/press/0611elect.htm>

[piedmont]

101. nope, REPUBLICANS got their asses handed to them

I'm a progressive and a gun owner, and I don't vote on just one issue.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. Why would any progressive support the AWB fraud?

It did not work, it did not address the underlying problems. Clinton and many others believe that it cost a significant amount of votes and seats in the congress.

[billbuckhead]

38. It works so bad that every industrialized nation has it except backward USA

Gee and they also have less gun crime. Imagine that. Why would any progressive support easy access by almost anyone to military style weapons? Sweden doesn't, New Zealand doesn't, Canada doesn't, Ireland doesn't and soon Illinios won't.

Check out what's happening in Illinois assault weapons lovers.

"And even with as many victories as those fighting against gun violence saw yesterday, not all of them were from candidate wins. In Illinois, a huge issue was decided by referendum yesterday. As per voter mandate, assault weapons are no longer allowed within Cook County– voters sent a clear message with a clear majority wanting to get rid of the guns.

And our friends at the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence have dropped a press release touting the vote yesterday, and stating exactly what this means for the gun issue in their state.

Governor Rod Blagojevich won re-election with almost 50 percent of the vote in a three-person race after making passage of a statewide assault weapons ban a signature issue of his campaign. Blagojevich’s opponent repeatedly stated during the campaign that you couldn’t define what an assault weapon is and that a rolling pin could be considered an assault weapon.

“Obviously, Illinois voters know what an assault weapon is and want a Governor who will work to get these weapons off the streets of our communities,” said Thomas Mannard, Executive Director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.

State legislative candidates who support stronger gun laws were very successful against candidates endorsed by the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the Illinois State Rifle Association (ISRA). Linda Holmes, Mike Noland and Michael Bond all defeated NRA/ISRA supported candidates for state senate seats.

And in perhaps the biggest state legislative win for gun violence prevention advocates Fred Crespo defeated incumbent Terry Parke for a seat in the House of Representatives. Crespo roundly criticized Parke during the campaign for his opposition to an assault weapons ban and support of conceal and carry.

“Illinois voters sent a strong message yesterday that they will not support candidates who choose to side with the gun lobby over the safety of our communities.” stated Mannard. “The results of this election should be a sign to legislators that they better watch their votes on the gun issue in the upcoming General Assembly because voters are paying attention.”

The battle, of course, isn’t over yet. It’s only begun. Because now that we’ve made sure we have legislators in office willing to step up and do something about firearms and the violence they make possible, it’s our job to put their feet to the fire and make sure we get the laws we need. Blago promised an assault weapons ban– let’s get it done. Other legislators all over the United States ran on platforms against gun violence, and now it’s time to get what we need: a respite from the gun lobby’s tyranny and the violence that comes with it

We can celebrate the victory yesterday, but only for a short time. Next up, let’s continue working for what we all need: stronger gun laws that keep guns off of our streets and our citizens out of the line of fire."
<http://www.gunguys.com/index.php>

[derby378]

41. IL voters don't know what an "assault weapon" is because the term remains undefined

What a pity that Josh Sugarmann of the VPC couldn't be bothered to sit down and actually create a definition of the term. Instead, it's become a symbol of the touchy-feely politics that doomed Democratic control of Congress in 1994.

I think it's time for Democrats to move forward, not look backward. Bye-bye, ban - hello, WASR-10.

[Jack Rabbit]

33. With what kind of signing statement?

Bush can sign any piece of legislation he likes . . . and even those he doesn't like, as long as he thinks he has the right to pick and choose.

[derby378]

37. The term "assault weapon" is dead. RIP.

And so is the loathsome, noxious, Democrat-killing ban that bore its name.

Here's the current situation. Harry Reid, who will now become Senate Majority Leader, opposes resurrection of the semi-auto ban. A record number of pro-RKBA Democrats have been elected to the House and Senate. Tammy Duckworth, a disabled Iraq veteran who shouold have been a shoe-in but ran on a strong anti-semi-auto platform, has been defeated in her Illinois campaign. The Brady Campaign is now headed by a Republican.

I see a fundamental change in the politics of gun legislation in America. And the 1994 ban on semi-automatics will be lost in the shuffle.

[Pavulon]

43. Define Assault Weapon first?

Please define what makes a regular rifle turn into an assault rifle...

My list:
Black and scary looking
or the traditional ak scary.

Has to have been used in a movie where a car is blown up by being shot with it.

has more than a 5 round magazine and fires explosive tipped armor penetrating ammo that will punch a hole in dozer blade.

The VAST majority of URBAN (black, latino code word BTW) are carried out with handguns, even in nyc where they are illegal..

[derby378]

44. There's a difference between "Assault RIFLE" and "Assault WEAPON"

The term assault rifle denotes any selective-fire rifle that can be fired from the shoulder or the hip and uses rifle-caliber ammunition. Thus, a Heckler & Koch MP5, which can be fired from either position, is not an assault rifle because it fires pistol-caliber 9mm ammunition; it is properly described as a submachine gun.

The term assault weapon, as you have pointed out, has no universal definition, even 18 years after Josh Sugarmann first invented it.

[Pavulon]

45. Select fire

Selective fire means a weapon has a trigger group that will allow it to be in safe, single shot, 3 shot, or automatic fire(or a combination of those). This has

I never heard the M16a2 referred to as an assault rifle. It is a select fire (3rd burst) battle rifle.(etc) I mostly heard it referred to at this motherfu#ker, truthfully. I don't feel like cleaning, carrying, etc...

My point it that there is no definition of what makes an "assault rifle"

That term you have in italics is every rifle made. You can fire a deer rifle from the hip if you choose to.

This issue is dead and should stay that way. It is a political mess and has no real effect on stopping crime.

[derby378]

46. I never heard that the three-shot burst was a mandatory feature of an "assault rifle"

But you're right about the ban. If El Diablo said he'd sign it, that's just desperation on his part. Even if a reauthorized ban passes the House, it won't pass the Senate.

[johnaries]

49. There's a "3 shot" setting now?

When I went through Basic, there was just single and auto. They taught us to fire 3 shot bursts in the auto setting by pressing and releasing as quickly as possible. Also, they taught us how to make a nice, tight triangular grouping just by gripping the weapon firmly. After the first shot, the recoil would jerk the weapon up slightly, making the second shot a little higher. A firm grip would bring the third shot back down and a little to the side after the initial recoil.

It was quite simple once you got the hang of it.

[meldroc]

53. Yep. Newer M-16 rifles don't do rock-and-roll full auto.

The switch on the side switches between safe, single-shot, and three-round burst. The Pentagon did some studies, and found that going full auto just wasted ammunition - when you fire off a full-auto burst, only the first two or three shots hit anywhere near the target.

[Selatius]

47. Democrats will commit electoral suicide on this issue. n/t

[derby378]

48. Don't be so sure...

Feinstein is now cancelled out by Feingold, Boxer by Reid, Clinton by Casey.

I don't know if there's as much one-to-one parity in the House, but trying to bring back the semi-auto ban would be an exercise in futility, for sure.

[NaturalHigh]

52. I don't think it would be suicide...

but it would certainly reinforce the stereotype of Democrats wanting to take away everyone's guns.

[johnaries]

51. Well, I was in the market for one myself, until the Dems won.

The telling aspect for the AWB is that the groups lobbying strongest for it are the Police Forces. They're tired of the criminals being better-armed than they are.

[derby378]

54. Why would that stop you from purchasing one?

Democratic office-holders are more likely to listen to gun-owning Democrats than gun-owning Republicans. If you have the money, the legal clearance, and the desire to purchase a semi-auto, I'm certainly not going to stop you.

[slackmaster]

55. That's the DUMBEST idea I've heard since the election

The expired federal "assault weapons" ban did not enhance public safety.

It was a pointless restriction on choices available to people who want firearms.

All it would do is cost us votes in 2008.

[billbuckhead]

56. Stronger gun regulations are majority position in America

The NRA was crushed nationwide on Tuesday. In Pennsylvania a candidate they had declared a jihad on (Rendell) got 60% of the vote vs one the NRA gave an "A" rating (Casey) only got 58%. In Illinois the Dem Governor made a statewide AWB a signature issue and in Cook county the voters voted in a AWB. The "Gun Rights" movement will die along with it's neocon hosts like Abramowitz, Cunningham, Norquist, deLay, Cheney, Bolton, ad nauseum.

[derby378]

58. Opposition to a Federal semi-auto ban is the majority position now

It's because the hard data from the US government itself, under a Democratic administration, supports our position:

Out of a total of 3,393 BATF traces in 1993 for the weapons banned in the upcoming crime bill, there were 1,202 traces for Intratec weapons (TEC-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22), 878 traces for SWD weapons (MAC-10, etc.), 581 traces for Colt AR-15s, 281 for Uzis, 175 for Intratec copycats, 99 for AR-15 copycats, 87 for AK-47s, and 64 for revolving cylinder shotguns like the Street Sweeper. In addition, there were only 12 traces for Galil rifles, 9 for Fabrique Nationale weapons, 4 for Steyr AUG rifles (importation into the US banned in 1989), and only one single trace for a Beretta AR-70 rifle for the entire year of 1993.

The NIJ study furthermore reports that traces for 19 enumerated firearm types climbed to 4,077 in 1994 and then dropped to 3,268 in 1995, a decline of approximately 20% over one year.

In addition, the NIJ study detailed that the number of gun murders in America decreased by 10% from 1994 to 1995, mirroring a drop in gun traces for "assault weapons" as well as overall gun traces for the same time period. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and other pro-ban organizations often cite this statistic from the NIJ study as proof that the semi-auto ban helped reduce gun murders.

What the Brady Campaign doesn't often mention, though, is that the same NIJ study by Roth and Koper demonstrated that gun murders were already on a downward trend, dropping 4-5% from 1993 to 1994. Even with "assault weapons" readily available and "on the streets."

Furthermore, a July 1995 report by the USDoJ Bureau of Justice Statistics titled Guns Used in Crime helped to shed more light upon the actual role of semi-automatics in the commission of violent crime. Although there were 3,393 traces of "assault weapons" for 1993, those firearms represented only 8% of the total number of firearms used in violent crime for the entire year.

The BJS report also presented a list of the ten firearms most heavily traced by the BATF in 1994. Number one on the list was the Lorcin P25, a "Saturday Night Special" pistol from one of the most notorious gun manufacturers in American history. The only non-pistol firearm to make it onto the list was the 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun. Not a single "assault weapon" made it onto the list.

http://www.a2dems.net/top10myths.htm

[billbuckhead]

60. ABC News: Murders More Prevalent in 2005, FBI Reports

ABC News Reviewed Crime Stats in Nation's Most Populous Cities

June 12, 2006 — Murder is on the rise in the United States, and some are worried the situation is only going to get worse.

According to national figures released today by the FBI, murders, robberies and aggravated assaults in the United States increased in 2005 — the first time there was an overall rise in violent crime since 2001.

Murders rose 4.8 percent, meaning there were more than 16,900 murder victims in 2005. It was the largest murder total since 1998 and the largest percentage increase in 15 years.
---------------snip---------------------
According to the FBI's report, several cities saw jumps in murder numbers: from 272 to 334 in Houston, a 23 percent increase; from 330 to 377 in Philadelphia, a 14 percent spike; and from 131 to 144 in Las Vegas, a 10 percent increase, according to the data.

However, the number of murders dropped in several large cities, including Detroit, Los Angeles and New York.
---------------snip------------------------------
<http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2065215&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312>

Get up to date there. BTW, notice New York City down, LA down and detroit down while CCW cities such as Houston, Philadelphia and Las Vega are up.

I suspect that the Bush regime is cooking the books on the real numbers and expect the Dem Congress to reinstate actually keeping gun violence statistics which the NRA run RepubliKKKan Congress wouldn't fund.

[derby378]

65. Murder rates rose in Dallas, too - but I need to see the BATF traces

I suspect most of the traces will continue to be for inexpensive pistols and some pump-action shotguns. If you want a gun-control policy that tackles violent crime, go after "junk guns" and you'll have more success than you will trying to reinvent a broken wheel.

I want to keep Democrats in charge of the House and Senate beyond 2008. Reviving the semi-auto ban will likely doom the chances of this happening.

[derby378]

59. Lessons learned: University of Texas, Austin, TX (1966) and North Hollywood, CA (1997)

First, there's the fierce North Hollywood bank robbery and gun battle on February 28, 1997. Commentary by Ron McCarthy, retired from LAPD SWAT:

As the robbers exited the bank, they were ordered to "freeze, drop your guns!" The robbers opened up on the patrol officers and the citizens in the community with a barrage of .223 and .308 gunfire both semi-automatic and full automatic. It was obvious to the officers that they were being shot at and wounded by a barrage of heavy weapons fire. This weapons fire was also wounding citizens trapped behind cars, proned out in streets and parking lots, fleeing on foot and in vehicles from the area. It was also obvious that the police were not going away. Although the officers were outgunned and out equipped, the patrol containment was complete, remained steadfast, and would not let the heavily armed suspects leave. There was a heavy price to pay for this bravery and devotion to duty.

The initial observation and rapid deployment was accomplished through professional fundamental training. There is no question that cover and concealment aided officers in reducing the number that were wounded, but the incredible level of violence that was directed at the police and the sheer volume of gunfire that the suspects directed at the officers over a long period of time speaks volumes about their quality and performance of the patrol officers.

As the suspects fled the bank and began their murderous full automatic assault rifle attack on the patrol officers, it was apparent that they were attempting to breach an escape route through the uniformed containment. The fact that a large number of officers were able to respond and deploy was a big component of a brave effort to hold the suspects at the bank.

Large departments have an advantage in the availability of large numbers of officers to respond. The LAPD had approximately 15 patrol officers deployed around all four sides of the bank as the suspects exited. Small agencies must work together to ensure that similar crimes that are predictably going to happen to them have a multi-agency response that replicates a large agency activation. If only four or five officers were on scene at the North Hollywood Bank of America, the suspects would have breached containment the suspects would have been able to concentrate focus and gunfire on more specific targets.

http://harrymarnell.com/officer.htm

This happened despite California's tough "assault weapons" ban, one of the strongest state-level bans then and today. The rifles used were semi-automatic AK-47 variants that had been illegally converted to full-automatic fire. The gunmen managed to outgun both civilians and police alike until tactical units could bring the attack to a halt. There were many civilian and police casualties.

Then there's Charles Whitman's rampage on top of the clock tower at the University of Texas in Austin, TX back in 1966. In this case, officers and civilians forming a perimeter around the clock tower were armed with rifles of comparable strength to the rifle used by Whitman, and although they could not have prevented the fatalities that resulted, they were able to contain Whitman's rampage to a certain extent until a single officer managed to ascend to the top level of the tower and kill Whitman.

Police need the tools necessary to keep themselves and civilians safe. But you cannot convince me that civilians have no right to defend themselves. Whitman was contained partially through the use of civilian firepower. Phillips and Matasareanu, the bank robbers in the North Hollywood shootout, were not.

The semi-auto ban is dead, and should be allowed to rest in peace.

[billbuckhead]

61. AK-47's shouldn't be legal so no one has an opportunity to convert them

Less access to the most dangerous weapons leads to less use. BTW, there are laws against robbing banks and shooting at peoplke, I guess those laws didn't work either and should be done away with.

[-..__...]

63. Law abiding citizens don't rob banks.

However, many of them do own semi-auto AK-47s as well as other semi-auto copies of "military style" firearms.

Robbery, assault, murder, etc are illegal conscious decisions/actions that one chooses to engage in.

As a a society, we don't seek to ban or restrict ownership of automobiles because some people choose to get behind the wheel while intoxicated. Instead we have laws that address the activity rather than the object.

My AK-47s, AR-15s, SKS, FAL, etc are legally owned tools/personal possessions that without human interaction are as harmless as any other tool.

Punish the criminal element and leave the law abiding citizens alone.

[billbuckhead]

73. And law abiding citizens won't own these guns when they're outlawed

Japan and Ireland have few guns and almost no gun crime. It's obvious. Why cater to criminals and terrorists to benefit a few hobbyists?

[-..__...]

76. Sounds like you're advocating confiscation...

rather than a simple ban. Sounds like something Stalin would be proud of.

As for Japan, Ireland (and any other gun banning regime), good for them... I really don't care how they do it over there. Thankfully I'm not a citizen of any of those countries and never plan to be.

As far as what the future holds? I'll contiune to work against any more gun control legislation and oppose those that do support it.

[billbuckhead]

81. So you don't care about 30,000 dead Americans and accuse good Americans

of being like Stalin? "Not invented here" has been the death knell of much of American industry and now our high and dead ly gun crime rate is a discouragement to attracting industry and tourists.

Go ahead fight against democracy, but don't expect to win in the long run. The RepubliKKKans and their NeoCON Rifle Association buddy's thought that gerrymandering would save them and now it's unraveling.

There's reason Rove has Chimpy saying he would sign the AWB, he knows that is what the whole public wants. That's reality, not conjecture.

[-..__...]

84. You have no idea what a Democracy is.

Accusing good Americans of being like Stalin? No, just you and anyone else who has misguided beliefs about majority rule and that what we need is even more gun laws up to and inculding confiscation.

The remainder of your diatribe is just strawman blathering and not even worth responding to.

[Jackeen]

97. Ireland repealed most of their firearms restrictions.

I've seen this error twice on this thread, and had to register to correct you.

When I moved to the US from Ireland, Ireland had very hefty restrictions on what you could own, and hold. All handguns and pretty much all center-fire rifles were confiscated under a 'Temporary order' in the 1960s, and stored by the government.

About two years ago, a sports shooter took the State to court over their blanket prohibitions: He wanted to import a .22 Olympic pistol. He was refused an import permit. The court basically tossed out the restrictive policy, the State decided not to challenge it. So amidst much fanfare in the Irish shooting community, the first pistol was imported by a private citizen in almost thirty years.

What people then figured out was that with the removal of the restrictions of the last thirty years, there were no longer any restrictions. Suddenly everything became legal. Waters were tested firstly with basic firearms such as .303 Lee Enfields and Browning Hi-Powers, and has expanded since. Fully automatic weapons are now legally held, though most people settle themselves with semi-automatic or bolt action rifles.

What annoys the hell out of me is that after I moved to the US, partly for the firearms laws (I'm a sports shooter), suddenly it is quite legal to purchase rifles in Ireland which are banned from import in all 50 US states.

What a lot of people don't seem to realise is that Continental Europe actually has fewer restrictions as to what you can buy than the US does. Just go to a German or Dutch purveyor of fine firearms, your jaw will drop. There are greater restrictions on storage or transportation (Switzerland being an obvious exception, where you can walk down the streets with an assault rifle on your shoulder and nobody bats an eyelid), but the actual definitions of what is and is not a 'legal' firearm are much looser than the US laws.

[piedmont]

98. Welcome to DU!

I had not not heard that before, Jackeen, and thanks for taking the trouble to tell us.

[Paladin]

72. Your Comments About Whitman Are Utter Bullshit

I was there in Austin when it happened, I had friends who lost family members that day. The only "containment" effect the civilian gunfire might have had on Whitman was to make him depart from his open and visible perch on the tower walkway and to hunker down to the rainspouts, where he shoved his rifles through and continued to shoot and kill, impervious to the gunfire below. The civilian gunfire put a lot of potentially lethal bullets into the air, and was brought to a close by law enforcement just as soon as possible for the risky business that it was; this notion that the cops and the armed civilians formed some sort of "perimeter" is pure gun militant fantasy which has been repeated way too many times.

If you want to crow about how nice the Democratic Party is catering to your opposition to gun control these days, be my guest. Just deal in facts when you do it.....

[fujiyama]

67. Gun control is a dead issue

After twelve years of staying in the minority, we finally have some power. We finally got some House seats in red states.

I'd rather Dems use this power to get the country's priorities back on track economically and deal with issues that matter like health care and Iraq, not to mention REAL ethics reform and bringing back accountability to DC.

[billbuckhead]

70. No it's the 30,000 people killed by guns that are dead

Also dead are the careers of many of the gun lobby's staunchest supporters.

[Irreverend IX]

74. ...and then there's Sarah Brady.

Poor thing can barely attract a handful of reporters now.

http://progunprogressive.com/?p=213

"What struck me most–there was nobody there. Nobody. The NRA person, the Washington Post reporter covering it, and myself were the only non-Brady staffers there. No ABC. No CBS. No NBC. No local affiliates…nobody. Was a time ten years ago when every time Sarah Brady spoke, the cameras lined the room and somebody like me wouldn’t have been able to get a word in edgewise. There weren’t scads of local reporters, Rosapepe volunteers and campaign workers, etc. Just me, the NRA, the Post, Sarah Brady and her assistants, Casey Anderson, and Jim Rosapepe. An unlikely lot, no?"

[Irreverend IX]

69. Are you trying to self-parody? nt

[SIIHPAPP]

82. Assault guns are icky and i hate them

We need to get a new gun ban NOW so all these repugnixon trolls with machine guns don't try to start a coup once HILLARY wins in 08. They won't be able to select another dictator once we have the tanks and they only have pointy sticks.

[billbuckhead]

89. The above is the real face of the "gun rights" movement

Usually it's a nice shiny astroturf facade but every now and then the truth bleeds through.

[VTMechEngr]

93. The above...

Is a troll.

[tritsofme]

90. It would never get through the Senate, and would probably die in the House too

Seems like the type of thing the "blue dog" Democrats would shoot down.

And if they didn't, it would easily be filibustered in the Senate.

[Rainscents]

94. Sounds like to me this is a trick legislation for 2008 campaign for GOP.

Democratic senator and congress... DO NOT GO FOR THIS! You see, Bush has nothing to loose by doing this, he will not be running again.

[VTMechEngr]

96. You have got to be joking!

That was the most useless gun law ever. You banned weapons based on looks!

Hows this as a thought from a Gun owning Democrat: Stop supporting stupid laws that criminalize us law abiding citizens!

[billbuckhead]

102. If all these gun owners are so law abiding then why such a high murder rate?

It's no secret, the US leads all advance nations in homicide and gun deaths. Far more innocent Americans killed by guns in America than by Al Queda or Iraqi insurgents. And shouldn't gun owners take reponsibilty for over 100 billion dollars in costs accroding to the Brookings Institute?

"Compared with other developed nations, the United States is unique in its high rates of both gun ownership and murder. Although widespread gun ownership does not have much effect on the overall crime rate, gun use does make criminal violence more lethal and has a unique capacity to terrorize the public. Gun crime accounts for most of the costs of gun violence in the United States, which are on the order of $100 billion per year."

<http://www.brookings.edu/press/books/evaluatinggunpolicy.htm>
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita>

[VTMechEngr]

107. How many gun deaths versus owners?

Come on, show me with hard numbers that it is not just a tiny group that violates the laws with firearms.

[distantearlywarning]

100. Gun control.

I think it would be an ENORMOUS mistake on the part of the Democrats to make this a major issue any time in the near future.

And aside from the obvious political liability problem with this issue, frankly, I don't think it's the most important problem facing America today.

[-..__...]

111. Are you with me!?! Lets gooooooo...

This whole thread reminds me of the "kicked out of school" scene from "Animal House".

You know... the scene where Blutto is trying to rally the Deltas into joining him into crushing Dean Wormer and the Omegas except everyone is ignoring him about going down that path?

Only difference is that it's going to take a lot more from the OP than a "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?" rally cry to assemble the troops.

The AWB is dead... may it rest in peace.

[pinto]

112. Locking.

This one's gone around the block. Thanks all.