I don't hold the same hatred of the Clintons that many here do.

[last1standing]

These are politicians who honestly believe they have found a way to help the Democratic party succeed by endorsing a more "business-friendly" stance. They do this in order to get the funds necessary to win elections so they can help those who need it most. Then there are the carville types, operatives. These are political hacks who think of nothing but "winning". Anything they have to do to win is fine with them. They don't despise karl rove and his maliciousness, but want to emulate him. These are the people who talk about triangulation and targeting. We aren't human beings to them, we are numbers and it's all a numbers game.

My real problem with most DLCers isn't their motives but their politics. They lack any real belief in the ability of the American people to make sound judgments so they buddy up to business groups for money they can use to sway their targeted voters. Of course these business groups want something for their money (as all smart businesses do) and push them to move to the right. Often in the juggle to get the cash to get elected, DLCers lose sight of what they were attempting to accomplish to begin with. This is usually caused by the operatives who are really in the pay of corporations.

What we need to do is not get rid of the DLC but to get rid of the operatives who have infested the group, the carvilles and the lanny davises. They are the ones whispering in the ears of the DLC politicians. They're the ones who fear Howard Dean so much because Dean's plan doesn't require the corporate cash that keeps carville and davis in the black. They had they're chance go join with us but they knew they'd lose their sponsors if they did, so they'd rather see the Democratic party in the minority than to join up with Dean.

So how do we get rid of the operatives? I think the process has already started, which is why carville made his desperate comments about Dean. For years these people have been telling Democratic politicians how to win elections and after they lost told them it was because rove is such a genius. They told Dems not to run on the corruption issue, that we needed to focus on the economy. They said that Iraq was a non-issue. Now their pet politicians have lost and Dean's choices have won. They have to do something so they're attacking. Suddenly, a 30 seat majority in the House is too little and Ford would have won if only he had more cash from the DNC. They want us to forget that the DNC took out loans to inject millions into the DLC operative run DSCC and DCCC so they could spend the cash where they saw fit. They want us to forget that most of our pickups occurred in areas they refused to help. They're flailing desperately and hoping something sticks.

Now is the time to push back against the operatives. We need to point out to the DLC politicians that we don't approve of their operatives tactics or their methods of funding. At the same time we have to voice our support of Dean and the 50 state plan that finally includes us in party again. Every million Dean raises from our piddling $20.00 donations is another nail in the coffins of the operatives. That is how you take on carville and the rest of the sleaze peddlers in the party. Once these cancers are removed I think many of us will like the DLC a lot more.

[Blue_Roses]

1. I LOVE the Clintons

WTF? President Clinton was one of the best President our country has seen.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Carville and the Clintons are very tight. I don't hate any of them, but I don't

always agree with them, either.

That's politics for ya! :)

[last1standing]

3. LOL! In my cut and paste I lopped off the first 3 paragraphs and can't remember them now.

I'm too tired to even know if the OP makes sense without them so take from it what you will, I guess. :)

[vickitulsa]

7. Actually it DOES makes sense anyway.

:)

I sort of wondered why you hadn't elaborated on the Clinton part of the story more, but since it's so late, and since many of us tend to shift even within an OP to focus on a closely related issue, I didn't find it too strange.

As you can see from my reply below, I believe you zeroed in on the heart of the problem!

:applause:

VERY GOOD POST. And if you find those other paragraphs lying around, just toss them into the thread somewhere -- we'll read them. ;)

[rodeodance]

4. i am not a clinton hater--thanks for your post

[BlueStater]

5. I don't hate the Clintons

I just hate the amount of media coverage Hillary is getting for a supposed presidential campaign she hasn't even announced yet.

[vickitulsa]

6. Carville has given me the shudders for years, too.

For the life of me, I have never been able to comprehend what makes anyone think he is a positive force for the good of the Democratic Party or the United States!

You're right in saying he admires Rove -- I've heard him admit as much more than once. It's almost like these similar types from opposing camps are playing their own little game-within-the-game where they are the REAL superstars -- the ones who mold and shape the very substance of our "leadership." All the while they have utter contempt not only for American citizens but also for those they believe they have MADE into "leaders"!

It's so evident when you listen to these operatives (a perfect term for them) that they have no true values of courage and principles. They will shift positions or face-paint styles in a heartbeat to suit their shady purpose. That is, if you can FIND a heartbeat in such people!

I honestly believe it's the tolerance of and reliance upon operatives like Carville and Rove in both parties that has degraded our political atmosphere in America to the nearly fatal level of pollution and corruption where we now find it.

This is what most "regular Americans" find so disgusting and repulsive about politics -- with good reason! The despicable negative ads are produced by operatives like these; and whoever says such ads "work" isn't making clear just what they mean by that. Giving heroin addicts methadone "works" to get them off heroin, too, but then they are addicted to the replacement drug and must battle addiction to it -- so what real gain has been achieved?

The degrading "adverse side effects" of the negative, skulduggerous, conniving con-jobs and low blows and dirty tricks these operatives serve up may appear to have gone unnoticed by many if not most citizens, but in fact that's just not true. Perhaps people haven't made the direct connection of the result to the cause of the sinking, stinking state of politics in America, but it's not like folks haven't seen -- and rejected -- those results.

I have a lot of conflicted feelings about the Clintons, I have to admit. But I also understand that they have to function as best they can in the system as it exists these days thanks to many years of work by soulless purveyors of dirty, confidence-game politics like Carville and Rove.

I believe what so many find refreshing about Howard Dean is that he seems to understand "what's wrong with this picture" of American politics, and he has the courage to TALK ABOUT IT. Even after the media complied so readily in following the lead of such operatives in mocking Dean for the non-event of the victory cheers and shout-outs to his loyal followers early in the 2004 campaign, he has continued to combat with unwavering determination the worst cancers afflicting the American body politic. Correctly diagnosing the core problem, he has set about trying to TREAT THE PATIENT appropriately -- and many understand and support him in this effort.

The feedback in polls and in voting booths from the American people shows clearly that they despise negative advertising and have no confidence in or respect for members of Congress or those in the Executive branch of government. The direction the scheming operatives have taken American politics in is not a hopeful or positive one in any sense, and the citizens of this once decent nation know it.

Sadly, I guess things are going to have to get even worse before something has to GIVE and the hold these people have over politics is broken. What scares me most is that this will probably mean a continuation (even after this election's "housecleaning") of corruption and dirty dealing in back rooms by Democrats as well as Republicans, along with their "do-nothing" behavior in public that frustrates and angers Americans so much.

We The People do know that it's the control of politicians by dirty money, the influence peddling, the corruption and graft and greed, that drives exactly the WRONG KIND OF PERSON into a career in politics. And this is bringing our country's government down to the sorriest state its ever been in.

If things don't change now -- and I don't expect they will, I shudder even to think of what horrors will come next before the underlying chronic condition is remedied....

[earth mom]

8. Believe it or not I was neutral on the Clintons until well after 9/11.

I didn't give a damn about politics and then slowly awakened to the living nightmare of the * regime and also to the lies of the Clintons! :wow:

The Clintons are basically rethuglicans pretending to be dems aka DINOs. "Business friendly" doesn't even begin to describe their corrupt relationships with the corporate bastards who helped put them in office. They care nothing for the majority of the people in this country; the middle class, working class & poor. It's all about the money honey for their friends, the rich rich rich! :puke:

[Raine]

9. I don't hate the Clintons I like them but

I wish they would just go away.

[ananda]

16. No not the Clintons again!

Let's focus on folks like Jon Tester, who is totally against free trade
and the Patriot Act. He's A-OK! And Jim McNerney, a true
environmentalist from the wind energy side. Go McNerney!
And Barbara Boxer, my shero! She really gets how urgent the
issue of global warming is!

[American Jesus]

10. The DLC is not a matter of "a few bad apples" it is rotten to the CORE.

DLC founder AL From wrote the talking points that have been repeated by every DLC spokesperson AND in all the major media publications this week, claiming credit for the election victory and attempting to minimize or ignore Howard Dean's very major role, and that of the Liberal grassroots.

DLC co-founder Will Marshall is a member of PNAC as is Marshall Wittman - a man whose resume includes previous employment by several right wing entities, the "Christian Coalition" and "Heritage Foundation" among them, as well as a stint with John McCain.

James Carville is married to Mary Matalin who was a high level Bush Crime Family operative in 1992 when they married and she remains so to this day. As reported in many threads here this week, Carville personally tipped off Matalin and the Bush Crime Family when John Kerry initially planned to contest the election fraud in Ohio. Because they were warned, the Bush Crime Family was able to tip off Ken Blackwell and DIEBOLD so they could conceal the fraud well enough to force Kerry to change his mind and concede.

THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS. THEY ARE NOT OUR ALLIES. THEIR INTENT IS TO DESTROY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FROM WITHIN.

Why does anybody still believe otherwise??

[Hekate]

11. What? the Big Dog?

Criticism of particular Clinton-admin policies, yes. Uneasiness about Hillary being anointed at the next presidential candidate, yes. Jumping up and down on her about her support of the Iraq war, well yeah.

But the Big Dog is pretty much universally liked around here, as far as I can tell.

Hekate

[Vidar]

12. I personally like both of them, but I don't want them in charge.

[Skidmore]

13. Don't label fatigue as hatred.

I admire both of them as people and citizens. Personally, I'm tired of the revolving Clinton-Bush door and believe it is time to let others contribute to this nation. We are a democracy and I don't believe a party that styles itself as the party of the people should create dynasties. I want new faces. I will not vote for Hillary or any other legacy candidate.

[dbt]

14. I hold no hatred for the Clintons, BUT

I do hold a great deal of confusion and bewilderment. The Clintons I knew for 12 years in the Governor's Mansion of Arkansas deeply and genuinely cared for this state and its people. They did what they could to move Arkansas forward--which is not an easy thing, given the ingrained "crab bucket" mentality of many people here: "We's ignernt and we's proud of it!"

I think Bill Clinton did what he could for the country during his two (lawfully-elected) terms. I think NAFTA was either a HUGE mistake or a sellout to the corporations, but overall we had us eight good years in Clinton Anerica.

What uttery BAFFLES me--what I CANNOT explain from watching him as Governor, then as President (did I mention lawfully-elected?)--is the way he has now cozied up to the Bush Family Nest Of Snakes who did everything they could think of to WRECK his ass from the moment he announced his candidacy!

I find Hillary's apparent rightward shift equally puzzling. A lot of Arkies still think she's a Socialist or worse! Perhaps she just kept her Inner Hawk under wraps from 1978 until 2000. Who knows?

As for the DLC and Bill's adherence to this "electability" business: if it's such a great idea, where's the string of Democratic victories since 1992?

Bottom line: these are NOT the Clintons I grew up with.

:freak:
dbt
Remember New Orleans

[Straight Shooter]

15. "many" here do?

I haven't seen a lot of hatred of the Clintons here. I've seen where people just don't like Hillary, or believe that Bill Clinton supported things that were more in line with corporatism than populism, but "many" hate?

Nope. Don't think so.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

18. The republicans have taught me to really listen to language, and

not to pretend I understand what "many" means. I now ask for an explanation of what "the war on terror" means. What "the noble cause" is. (Thanks Cindy - she was the first one to confront Bush with that question) (No wonder he didn't want to talk to her - he was wearing no clothes).

I agree with you, Straight Shooter. I don't see hatred. I do see nostalgia for the days when we weren't at war & we had a thriving middle class & a balanced budget & when the Big Dog was president.

[Straight Shooter]

25. It is all about language and rhetoric, isn't it?

I don't want someone pointing to DU and saying, "Look, here's a post confirming that even the left hates Hillary."

Newt taught us the power of words. We have to call BS when we see it, even if it's an innocent mistake.

[BlooInBloo]

29. Yes. Jillions.

[bvar22]

17. The DLC is FUNDED by Big Business.

The DLC has NO grassroots. Take away the Corporate bribe money = NO DLC.

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Individualist]

19. DLC IS the cancer!

Your attempts to get people to like DLC is like putting lipstick on a pig and expecting it to look like Miss America.

DLC wants to turn the party into a subservient branch of the GOP, and that's reason enough alone to DETEST them!
(Have I mentioned I put DLC cheerleaders on ignore?)

[AntiFascist]

31. I'm happy to see more sensible posts like this on DU...

While Bill Clinton was likeable enough, and did great things for the economy and the US domestically, that does not excuse his CIA roots and the corrupt connections to the secret government.

[Selatius]

20. NAFTA was wrong for workers, bad for America, and so is the corporate DLC

If you peruse the list of biggest contributors to the DLC, you find major industrialists and bankers from Exxon-Mobil to credit card giants as the big contributors. These people do not strike me as the kind of people who really give a damn about ordinary workers both here and abroad.

The best way to deal with corporatism infecting government is to pass public financing laws for all federal elections. The only money that belongs in the system is the people's tax dollars and no other.

Clinton was an absolute fool for campaigning on NAFTA.

[The Count]

21. Love the Big Dog. Wish Hillary wouldn't run. Carville should STFU (used to

love him before his comments on torture on Crossfire, and downhill from there). hate From, Lieberman and all the PNAC-ers disguised as dems.
While on it, loved that idea of Hillary as Senate majority leader

[Strelnikov_]

22. I Think Hillary Clinton Would Be A Good President

I just think there are a few other Dems that would be better, and most importantly, do not have her negatives in the polls.

Short of a GOP collapse, I do not think she can get the number of votes to be elected.

[StraightDope]

23. I liked Bill better BEFORE he started hangin'...

With Poppy Bush. And as far as Hilary goes, fuck her. She got into bed with * and the Congressional Repukes one too many times, in my less-than-humble opinion.

[robbedvoter]

24. No one HATES the Clintons. Just wouldn't vote for Hillary based

on her record of late. Nothing personal really, but after 2004, I SWORE I won't vote for any war enabler again. NOT EVER!

[BlooInBloo]

28. DUer refusing to vote for a democrat is colloquially equivalent to...

... hating that Democrat.

[AbbyR]

26. I like Bill, tolerate Hillary,

but I don't want her as our presidential candidate. She's in it for Hillary and Hillary alone.

[AntiFascist]

27. Don't many of the operatives love Poppy?

Just sayin.

[Disturbed]

30. I call BS on that statement.

Not many here "hate" Bill &/or Hillary. Most just don't want Hillary to run for Pres. in '08 for various reasons. I don't. I would like to Re-elect Al Gore.