This back and forth about centrists, liberals, progressives, whatever, is a stupid game

[bigtree]

Issues are what matter. Labeling people, even labeling ourselves, is not an exact science. Some of us are very rigid about some issues, like Iraq, abortion, death penalty, etc. That's the way it should be. Folks should have firm convictions.

But, if politics is not going to be about compromise, then it HAS to be about persuasion. Our Senators and Representatives come from many different and diverse parts of the country. They will be challenged to work with the others to advance their initiatives and concerns. I don't think they can best accomplish this by first choosing up sides within the party.

There will be leadership contests for the caucus positions, but the heads of the two houses, respectively, will be, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. The folks under those positions who organize and push legislation will be key to which bills and resolutions get priority and are voted on. In the House, Speaker Pelosi has already laid out a specific agenda for the first 100 days. There won't be much disagreement on these among Democrats.

There will also be the wiretapping bill that Bush wants to push through with the lame-duck enablers who are still hanging around. There's the Bolton appointment Bush wants to sneak through before our team is in place. There's the nuke treaty/agreement with India. And, Bush is even hoping to get Gates through.

But, afterward, in January when our Democrats are sworn in, there will be a need for them to produce on their promises. Iraq seems key. There will be those Democrats in place who've, in the past, have not been as forceful about an immediate withdrawal of forces. They will be as affected as everyone else by the mandate of the last election. I think they have to act fast, to save lives and to take advantage of the pressure that exists today.

Keep in mind, the committees which do all of the investigating that we want to see have these old-school liberals who will assume the chairs, and who've been biting their tongues for a decade while the republican chairmen stuck it to them. Think of Sen. Leahy having to endure Hatch. Kennedy tolerating Specter. If anyone thinks these folks are going to sit on their hands they're dreaming. They never did, and never will.

Most of the old defenders of Democratic principles are still in place. We don't have to divide and label these people. Their actions will define them. And, we can respond directly to them. They don't have any notions of the absolute power the republicans had the advantage of. They are in earnest. They will do us proud. But, they won't do it by separating into these ideological groups. They will tackle the issues and concerns with unity of purpose or they won't do a thing at all. That's the reality of the makeup of the Senate, at least.

And, there's Bush's veto. They can pass whatever they want, but it may not get signed. Then they need 60 votes to overturn the veto in the Senate, same 2/3 in the House. That's where the persuasion and compromise come into play. That same 2/3 majority will be needed to table legislation, manage filibusters.

All of the centrists, liberals, progressives, or whatever they consider themselves, will be pulled in many directions as they bargain for other members' votes on their pet projects. Break it all down in the end and what we're left with are Democrats, for the most part, for better or worse. The rest of the ink spilled on which ideology dominates is nonsense until we see what these folks actually are compelled to, and manage, to do.



http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bigtree

[Cooley Hurd]

1. I wish it were easy enough to just simply knock their heads together...

...and remind them that the task at hand is too enormous and important to be arguing about who and what won the election for us.:grr:

[William769]

2. Like Republicans, some here think

If they say it loud enough & long enough it will be true. Guess what? it won't, just ask anyone in the Republican party.

[sandnsea]

3. The voters rejected labels

and voted for progress. Democrats better deliver.

Good post.

:applause:

[xultar]

4. AGREED. It is a waste of time. Things are too close for us to play

that game. It will only serve to defeat ourselves in the end.

We don't have the luxury to play with such nonsense right now.

Look what happened to the right. They effed up by dividing themselves and alienating the people on their own party by using stoooopid labels.

[wholetruth00]

18. They were defeated because they didn't keep their eyes open and were

fooled. If we don't talk about what we see as problems we will all go along to get along and follow the rest of the herd over the cliff.

[Demit]

5. I see the media as the ones insisting on playing that game.

They are the ones setting up the uber-narrative that way. Lumping all the newly elected Democrats together as conservative and repeating the meme as if it is accepted truth, for example. I like how Webb started off interviews (two that I saw) correcting how the interviewer phrased his first question. It will be an uphill battle with the media, they love their uber-narratives so, but if every Democrat who gets a chance for some exposure in the press makes sure to resist the automatic framing, and forces the press to report on what they are actually saying, things might begin to change for the better.

[bigtree]

8. It is just a few stories fueling it. Blogs play a big part in the buzz.

If I know my Democrats, and I still recognize most of them by name and state on both sides of the aisle, they will govern in a way that we can be proud of. They'll do that together. We'll insist on it.

[exlrrp]

9. You are exactly right--its the framing

And thats what it always is. It doesn't matter what the news is, if you can reframe it to make it look like you know what was happening all the time, you get better ratings, you make it look like you won.
The repubs and their media pimps must come up with ways to excuse their loss--why, it COULDN'T be their fault!--and of course theyre not going to take responsibility for it--they only evade it. Haven't we seen them doing nothing but that these past years of torture and despair? These are people who are convinced theyre perfect and that their leaders are perfect--don't expect them all to come together in Kumbaya moment over what a disaster theyve been.
The information doesn't matter as long as you frame it well( a lesson from "1984")---thats how 2 decorated Vietnam Veterans got whupped by draftdodgers and drunk drivers.

[orpupilofnature57]

6. Democrats have ears and can be sued with Reason ,Curing the ill's

of civilization ,or the ill's Democrats choose to cure ,keeps us together.

[klook]

7. A breath of fresh air

Thanks for this well-reasoned perspective. As I said in another post:

In some areas, conservative Dems won. In more areas, progressive/liberal Dems won. All those victories together give the Democratic Party a majority.

The DNC needs to keep pushing the 50-state strategy and building a big-tent coalition.

[The Count]

10. Issues are, agreed. And keeping Carville's mouth shut doesn't hurt either.

Just reminding that the bad blood was started on purpose by some turncoats.

[jgraz]

11. Unfortunately, this is more than just a stupid name game

The Rethugs were not the only people who took a beating last Tuesday. The corporatist wing of the Democratic party also had their asses handed to them. Now, in a desperate attempt to keep control of the party, they are putting forward the lie that the centrists won the election, and that we must follow centrist policies (read: pro-free-trade, pro-corporate-money and, sadly, pro-war) if we want to win in 2008.

The simple truth is that had the establishment Democrats gotten their way, we would have lost the House. Of the 22 congressional races funded by the DCCC, only 8 candidates won. The other 20 house seats came from races that received little or no support from the DCCC. In fact, many of the 20 candidates had to first defeat a centrist DCCC-funded primary opponent before moving on to the general election.

If we allow Rahm Emmanuel to spin this election his way, we can look forward to 2 years of very limited congressional oversight, continued war in Iraq and the perpetuation of trade policies that are destroying the middle class. But only two years. After that, the GOP will be back in control of all three branches of government when disgusted progressives either stay home or vote Green in 2008.

I really don't care what we call it, but we have to make clear what issues and ideals carried the day last Tuesday. There's a lot more at risk than a simple label.

Edit: because grammar are good.

[bigtree]

14. stupid labels, like a kid's club

"issues and ideals"


I like the sound of those.

[desi]

12. How ironic that what you speak of here

is perfectly exemplified in a thread right below yours on the Greatest Page.

"This back and forth about centrists, liberals, progressives, whatever, is a stupid game"

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. IMHO those who seek to divide us must feel that it is never too early to wage their campaign to "gain the upper hand" whatever that might be. I read those threads and what I see are "cattle chutes" trying to separate us or lead us into their fold. I can only state what it does to me. It completely turns me off on what they are trying to sell.

eta: Spelling. Changed "thread" to "threads," there have been quite a few.

[LWolf]

13. I agree that issues are what matters.

I will also agree to keep the labels out of it as long as there are no claims or pronouncements about "centrists" having a "mandate."

[bigtree]

15. How would the individuals who are claiming these things be able to affect policy?

Out of the prospective party chairs and party leadership, who do you think has these centrist characteristics, and how do you think that member's position will enable them to transfer that ideology to policy, legislation, or resolutions?

There will be the in-house, party leadership contests where folks will be voted on who will be charged in managing legislation and generating support for party initiatives. If this struggle is to have any effect at all it will manifest itself in whichever of these candidates is elected to whatever post. So . . . that's the relevant part. The rest is just prattle from whoever is reporting this stuff.

[jgraz]

16. Two words: Feingold Censure

It comes down to this: leadership is hard and most establishment Dems are spineless. Look at how quickly they abandoned Feingold when they thought that public opinion wasn't behind them.

Now think about what will happen when the Conyers and Waxman investigations start uncovering clear grounds for impeachment. Think what will happen if Tester and Webb introduce a bill to scale back or even repeal NAFTA.

Will the rest of the Dems support them? Or will they form their familiar circular firing squad, ask Waxman to apologize for his insinuations about the President and go on Hardball to advocate a "go slow" approach to saving American jobs?

This is the kind of behavior that has made many Dems so repellant to mainstream voters - and rightly so. If we can get them to believe the truth, that voters want real change and accountability, then we have a real chance of turning this disastrous regime around and kicking the Rethugs to the curb for the next 20 years.

[bigtree]

19. They made those decisions in the face of a republican majority

where their efforts in those battles had little legislative weight.

The same chairmen that were in place before when we had Democratic investigations are in place now. Those chairmen will drive the investigations now. Neither Reid nor Pelosi have said they would stand in the way of investigations. I believe that these things will proceed better anyway if our party doesn't look so eager to go for the kill. Remember, politics can be tricky. There things can turn on a dime, either way. We can strike gold, or burn our own hides. I like the outward assurances that we're jus there to govern. That covers it. If something is uncovered we'll deal with it, unlike the republicans. I don't think these congresscritters will stand in the way of these things, not the freshmen. Too many oldtimers still around, and these folks need all the help they can get in their new positions.

[Buzz Clik]

17. excellent OP. n/t

[UTUSN]

20. Thank you and AGREED!!!1 n/t

[porphyrian]

21. My label's better than yours! - n/t

[struggle4progress]

22. Let Congress send Bush stuff to veto stuff left & right. The message will be clear

[bigtree]

27. That may not work

What if the public comes to see our party as mere obstructionists? On some issues they expect rigidness, but, for the most part, they say they favor bipartisanship and compromise.

Of course, we could do like Bush and the republicans and ignore what the public wants in favor of our own ideological agenda. Just sayin.

[struggle4progress]

29. There's plenty of stuff the public wants that George would rather veto.

He's vetoed hardly anything to date -- I can't think of anything except the stem cell bill.

If he starts vetoing tons of stuff, how does that make our side "obstructionists"?

[bigtree]

30. you're right, of course. If he vetoes everything, he's the obstructionist

I can't help, though, but recall tha last time we tried that, the public blamed both parties for 'gridlock', although Newt got burned for shutting the govt. down .

But, you're right. Obstructionists is the wrong word.

[greeneyedboy]

23. exactly. the Democratic Party is about what the people want

and what the people want varies from place to place, but there are common threads: fair working conditions, access to health care, quality education for everyone, etc.

on the universal issues, we all need to pull together; on the other issues, let a lively debate generate a compromise that we all can live with.

[bigtree]

26. or do nothing at all but continue to protest

I don't think voters sent them there to sit on their hands. They expect an opposition to the republicans, but they want that opposition to translate into action. That 'action' won't happen without compromise and persuasion.

[Odin2005]

24. Too many DUers stupidly assume "moderate" = DLC hack.

[bigtree]

25. It's a ready scapegoat. It's also a decades-old wedge some use to divide our party

starts with the 'assumptions'

[Hidden Stillness]

28. Now Let's Vote Out the Republican Media That Knowingly Lies + Confuses

Anyone who thought that voting for a Democratic Congress on Tuesday would get Republicans out of power, has probably by now recognized the other part of their "ownership society"--their corporate media, and the way it has been lying, non-stop, about the nature of what happened on Tuesday, since. The Republican agenda is not popular, has never been popular--when was the last time you heard crowds taking to the streets demanding tax cuts for rich people, and removal of safety and workers' rights protections?--but what they do have, as always, is concentrated power, based on ownership. They still have it, and with "oddly enough" no term limits placed on their sphere of influence, they are actually the permanent, fixed determinant of policy and official course. Their message to us now, with this endless blather of propaganda since the election is, "You affected nothing. We still have the only voice."

Polling of voters on election day, asking them what the most important issues were to them, and why they voted the way they did, by PEW Research reported by AP, by CNN and reported there by Jacob Hacker, author of "The Great Risk Shift: The Assault on American Jobs, Families, Health Care and Retirement And How You Can Fight Back," showed that the majority is completely in tune with us, on all important issues. The number 1 issue according to PEW, "Republican corruption"; the number 1 issue according to Hacker, "The economy," and these issues scored above Iraq and terrorism, and well above the always-near-the-bottom, "taxes." Other polls shows "morals voters" voting for Democrats, and Independants voted for Democrats. Earlier polls had been showing the American people increasingly disgusted with "rich crony Republican" behavior, all the way back to the horrific, sinful non-response to Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and all the way up to the cover-up for Mark Foley's predatory behavior toward teen-aged Congressional pages, the huge web of illegal Republican lobbying, payoffs, money-laundering, the illegally fixed voting machines owned by Republican contributors, the war profiteering and lack of interest toward solving the tragedy that is Iraq, etc., etc. There was a huge and widespread disgust with Republican incivility toward Democrats, and a lying, belligerant "framing routine" response to all legitmate questions concerning governing. Polls showed that people wanted a return of Government to addressing the concerns of middle class and poor people, with jobs, outsourcing, health care, the rising cost of living with flat income rates, etc., etc. Everything was very clear.

Then, right on cue again, the corporate world's mouthpiece, their media, started its act. Immediately, there began this flood of very strange "warnings" about whether "the Democrats" could ever be "bi-partisan" (like Republicans??), "centrist" (undefined), could "keep the liberal wing/extremists" under control (presented as a huge threat, unlike neo-con capitalists). All Democratic proposals were presented as "so liberal," "too liberal" (just like the "D"LC), etc. AT THE SAME TIME, bizarrely, the newly elected Democratic candidates were presented as "conservatives," "more conservative than some Republicans," "I've never heard so many (fill in the blank as to TYPE) Democratic conservatives on this issue in my life," and how this all really, secretly, proved that Americans are "conservative" and now Democarts need to be "conservative." It was especially insane when you heard one opinion immediately after another. MSNBC, as shitty as it ever was, had for example, this incompetant Tucker Carlson LAUGHING at Jonathan Alter for how "liberal" all these lunatic Democrats are (as if the asshole thought THEY WON), and then--in between the cable channels having Tom DeLay and Nixon Dirty Tricks operative Pat Buchanan on as "experts" to tell us what the facts are--MSNBC had captions onscreen such as "New Dems Like the Old GOP?" and with teasers as they went to commercial, such as, "Are the new Democrats just a buncha Republican wannabes?" They warned their audience to be ready for how horrible and corrupt we are, when they covered up the facts about their own Party--on MSNBC, the caption "Dems Take Control" had a further caption, "Dems Vow to Clean Up Congress, But Have Dirty Laundry of Their Own," and the talking head said, "They might not be so squeaky clean either!" They are actively obstructing us ALREADY, and this also shows an oddity about the corporate media--just like under Communism, if somebody says something, officially, that is so bizarre, an obvious lie, that even directly contradicts what everyone was saying just yesterday, no one ever refers to it. No one mentions it ever again. If they do--Bye-bye!

The things the American people were really voting on were revealed by the ballot proposals that passed, and failed across the country. Seven States had proposals to increase the minimum wage, which did not used to be considered a "liberal" issue, but only common sense, and it passed overwhelmingly everywhere. Three States had proposals to resctrict abortion rights, and all were trounced, even in South Dakota, where unwelcome archconservatives had earlier forced a near-ban on the people. The only program that described the meaning correctly, apart from "Countdown," was Lou Dobbs, who referred to the huge win of populist, anti-corporate Democrats, fighting on behalf of the abused and sinking middle class. Silly shit, such as legalizing marijuana proposals, failed; important Democratic principles, such as making Government help the economy and help the people against corporate greed and crime, won big.

This is a moderately liberal country, and we the Democrats are the mainstream majority. Republicans are the rich corporate fringe, and our country will become a living Hell every time people mistakenly believe that Republicans are the norm and we are the extreme. They have come home, and we have come home.