Is It O K To Spank Your Child?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I say no.

[DemExpat]

1. I am on the NO side.

I and my siblings were spanked growing up, my own 2 children (22 and 24 years old now) have been raised without physical punishment.

I think doing without is far superior.

DemEx

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I Think It's Cowardly To Hit Somoeone Who Can't Hit You Back

eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. I was never spanked either

I spanked mine when they were very small. Once they were old enough to talk and reason, I stopped spanking.

But I have sure known kids who acted like they needed to be spanked. Of course, they weren't mine :)

[donheld]

159. Oh God, Are there still good seats?

:popcorn::beer:

[Karenca]

2. No

No No!

[WindRavenX]

3. No

Sends ENTIRELY the wrong message.

The only time I can ever see such interactions is if the child's life is in danger-- my mom had to yank me by the collar of my neck once to prevent a car running over me...that's like one of the only situations I can think when physical action is needed.

PS, I was raised by non-spanking parents.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. That's Different...

That's spontaneous...

[WindRavenX]

12. right

There's no reason at all to discipline your child with violence-- none at all :hi:

[conservdem]

372. How many children have you raised?

[WindRavenX]

393. Oh, this card again

I've been involved with childcare for years now, starting with working at a preschool-- although I suspect you'll not take accept my experiences because the children were not my own-- and I was the primary daycare for a bunch of extremely physically agressive brothers last year.

Never saw their parents spank them. I never, ever raised a hand to them-- time outs were extremely effective. Always.

But I'll await my "you've never raise kids blah blah blah so you don't know what you're talking about" response.

[conservdem]

394. Your absolute statement against it made me curious about your

experience and source of knowledge on the topic. Your view might be correct and my opinion--sometimes it can do more good for a child to do it than not to do it--might be wrong. I am not 100% sure. I find time outs to be part of the solution, but not all of it. Glad you had success with them. I have also seen many children behave better when not with their parents.

I give more weight to opinions about this from parents, than non parents. I would also give more weight to the opinion of someone who has really studied the issue.

Have you ever known anyone to have spanked and still raised good children? Have you ever tried to learn if it can be part of good parenting?

Do you think it should be illegal?

[WindRavenX]

395. Of course I know people who were spanked

This isn't a mutually exclusive idea-- you can be a good person and be spanked, just as the opposites are true. I am convinced that most spanking probably won't do a great deal of psychological harm (if it is, you are committing child abuse and should be locked up), but it is still an unbelievably hypocritical thing to teach your children.

I will never be physical with a child out of punishment.

[philosophie_en_rose]

5. It's a choice every parent has to make.

I do not believe in it. My parents never used violence to try to teach me. It seems a little misguided to me. But I don't know that every spanker is an abuser.

[WillParkinson]

6. I said yes

My parents very rarely spanked me. But if I did get spanked I know it was for a good reason and I never repeated the offense.

But this also asks the question, "What do you consider spanking?" Are we talking a swat on the butt or are we talking repeated hits?

[Arkana]

73. EXACTLY.

"My parents very rarely spanked me. But if I did get spanked I know it was for a good reason and I never repeated the offense."

This was the same reason I used for my yes vote on the LAST poll of this type--and I got absolutely blasted out of the water.

I know there have been times when I absolutely wanted to BELT other people's bratty, snotty, whiny, misbehaved kids. If repeated verbal assurance doesn't work, then sometimes this is the only way to get your point across. I'm not talking about wailing on the kid--I'm talking about a swat on the bottom.

[Dorian Gray]

78. Sadly,

I just saw three 8-15 year old (I assume siblings) today with a parent, and I really thought that they could have used a good old fashioned whack. They were horrid, screaming at the mother because she wouldn't buy them a new computer. The oldest child was the worst, while the other two younger children seemed to be following her lead. We were in Office Depot, getting envelopes and pens, and I couldn't believe my ears! I was so shocked. The oldest of the children even resorted to screaming out, "Dad said you'd get me a fucking computer if my grades got better." F- bomb and all.

However, I assume that we mean younger children when this question is asked, and I don't feel as though it is right to spank younger children at all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. I watched a 9 year old hit his mother

I still can't believe it. And this happened 8 or 9 years ago. He was in my class and Mom came to school for a parent teacher conference. As they were coming in the room, we stopped in the hallway right outside the classroom and Mom turned to Junior and told him she had better not hear anything bad about his behavior. Junior reached up and slapped his mom on the face and then smacked her in the shoulder. There were a bunch of other parents in the hallway who were watching and they just froze. Mom said nothing, just walked in and sat down. Junior stood there and listened while I told Mom he needed to work on self-control.

Then I sent Junior out of the room and told Mom she really shouldn't let him hit her.

On edit: I guess this is one kid who either needed a spanking or maybe he had one too many.

[Dorian Gray]

113. It's rare when I think a child needs a spanking,

but then there is a situation like the one you just wrote about, and I can't help thinking it! But, you are right to think that perhaps that child had one too many spankings in the past.

[IdaBriggs]

189. I won't answer this poll, because I think the answer is both "yes" and "no."

Frankly, I have no problem with giving a two year old a swat on the diaper when teaching them things like "DON'T RUN INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD" on those occassions when they escape their handlers. (Yes, I have seen this situation, and the absolute terror on the face of the parent.) There are some situations that don't warrant a "time out" -- as a parent, you do whatever it takes to keep your child safe because they don't *need* to understand just how bad the consequences of their actions could be when they are "that little" -- Rules (like always holding mommy's hand in a parking lot) are simply Rules.

I also horrified my sister when I "taught" her daughter to quit biting by "biting her back." It was amazing -- she bit me, I told her if she did it again I was going to bite her back, she bit me again, and I bit her. She yowled like crazy, but never bit me (or anyone else, after I told her I would bite her every time she bit anyone else) ever again. It was a miracle! (snicker) Behavior = Consequences.

On the other hand, I am in the "spanking in an emergency" category only before the child has hit the "age of reason." I don't expect a toddler to understand why chasing a car is bad, but I think once they can "answer back" there are more effective punishments than "corporal."

I want to promote a loving, supportive home, but I also hope to instill the fear of My Righteous Wrath into them well before we hit their teenage years -- No Stealing, No Drugs, Etc. Please let the "big fights" be about how "mean" I am because I insist that they finish their homework before socializing with their friends! :)

Also, after a certain point, the "laying on of hands" becomes assault in my book. If you are trying to hit a teenager, you are simply an abusive asshole.

[havocmom]

357. Very sane post. A toddler cannot listen to rational explanations

in situations that require QUICK aversion therapy. An older child, who can communicate and has some life experience, should be dealt with in ways that show more thought than a swat and actually teach value lessons.

Children are born unsocialized and naive. If we don't teach them how to stay safe and behave with others, we cripple them and sentence them to a life of confusion and resentment.

Mom dogs will nip a pup's ear to correct unacceptable behavior. Young human pups will be baffled by a stern lecture and go off and repeat the offense until it is demonstrated to them that a particular action is unacceptable.

It all goes to the level of communication. And when safety issues are involved, teach quickly. Telling a very young child the oven door will burn them has absolutely no meaning to a youngster who has never been burned. A quick swat will send the message that the stove is not a plaything. Which is more damaging, a mostily-noise swat across the Pampers or a little hand trying to help you pull a hot dish from the oven?

As kids grow and communicate, you had better be on you toes for new ways to make your point. A swat won't make a dent in them and proves you are an ineffectual bully who is out of ideas. Hitting hard enough to make an impression only creates distrust and fear and could easily be abuse.

Respect. Respect the level of the child's communication skills. Respect the situation. Respect the person you are correcting. Show respect. Expect it back.

[jayctravis]

379. I agree. Not talking *beating*...but a smack on the butt.

Part of the problem with the younger generation is there never is a moment early in formation where it's established that they should be *afraid* when their parents are angry with them. Just like on the Dog Whisperer; an animal that is allowed to be dominant will assume the dominant role, and it takes forcing them to do what you want with a couple of quick corrections on a leash to make them behave, then they are pleased and happy to behave.

Once it's established, before reason and language skills are formed, that Mom and Dad mean business when they say it, that stays with a person. If it's done correctly then spankings never actually need occur again. Remember how comedians always talk about how their mom would get "the look"? No physicality needs take place after the association is made.

It's the Cosby thing; the child needs to believe "I brought you in this world, I'll take you out!" even if the parent would never do that, and it needs to be established before the child is old enough to harm the parent.

I got spanked, but it was never the pain that worked, it was the humiliation and knowing I had seriously done something wrong. If children don't early on associate misbehavior with something bad...such as a swat on the butt...then they learn their actions have no consequence.

[JuniperLea]

191. A kid who had too many spankings probably wouldn't hit their parent

A kid who lived in fear of too many spankings isn't likely to provoke one.

I'm more inclined to think this was a parent who didn't want to spank their child but didn't do anything other than spanking to keep him in line. You still need to discipline somehow.

[Bassic]

158. Same for me.

And it was more for form than anything else, so that I'd get it. They never actually hurt me, and it happened very rarely, but man did I know they meant business when they did it.

[xultar]

168. I think a swat on the butt now and then is good. Kids now are spoiled

and haven't had a swat and now they are crazy. They needed a good spankin on the behind back in the day to prevent that spoiled brat syndrome.

[HardRocker05]

399. disagree; when i was spanked it was a moment of weakness and anger

and i can't believe my parents were proud of what they did. i also was very rarely spanked, but i don't look back on those times and think, 'they did the right thing;' i know they broke down from frustration or anger or whatever, and the end result was not good for anybody.

[lisa58]

7. Depends who your kid is...

...if it's gwb then I think some discipline was warranted - not necessarily spanking - but something!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. The Bushes Used Corporal Punishment

That's why Bu$h's first impulse to resolve a problem is to use violence.

[lisa58]

14. really...

...I thought they just ignored.

[melody]

71. I'm surprised they didn't use Capital Punishment n/t

[MurrayDelph]

197. I always thought Barbara's mechanism

was to "withhold love" (So far, she has been doing so for about 60 years!)

In the Bush family, Corporal Punishment means letting some soldier be punished for your
mistakes.

[porphyrian]

330. You joke, but I think that's right.

I think kids are just small people, and all people learn best in different ways (despite the attempts of the educational institution to force everyone to teach and learn the same way for bureaucratic expediency, but that's another topic). I think some children may only respond to spanking as punishment. On the other hand, I think certain people could be horribly hurt by it. Most people probably fall somewhere in between. If we were all clones with exactly the same environmental influences, then maybe we could make a sweeping generalization about the effectiveness of spanking, but that isn't the case.

However, effectiveness is not all that's at issue here. Does spanking send the message that violence, especially adult-to-child, is OK? Is spanking a hypocritical way to respond to a child's wrongdoing (especially if, say, the child just bit another)? Does the government have any business telling people how to raise their children? All of these are related topics, and again I'm not sure that there's any one correct answer.

[hippiechick]

9. Hell yes.

n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

25. Oh really, how so?

I'm curious...

[William769]

10. I think it should be left up to the parents.

If they happen to step over the line, they should be dealt with.

IMHO whats wrong with todays society happens to do with this topic. Go ahead flame away.

[Tatiana]

16. No flames from this direction. I was spanked as a child. I'm just fine.

I can honestly say, I probably deserved 99.9% of them. I think spanking is OK as long as it's not done out of anger is used on rare occasion as a tool of correction, not punishment.

[ulysses]

36. exactly so.

I was probably spanked...8 times? maybe?...growing up. My folks were right to do it when they did - made me quit doing dangerous shit.

[goddess40]

195. You turned out ok in spite of spanking not because

lots of horribly abused kids turn out fine - I don't think it's because they were abused. Spanking is a form of abuse, while it is the same as a beating with a belt it still is on the scale.

[conservdem]

396. So your view is its never ok?

How many kids have your raised?

[mondo joe]

26. And what do you think is wrong with today's society?

Thank you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Some kids are spanked too much

and some kids aren't spanked enough.

[ulysses]

94. indeed.

:thumbsup:

[moc]

Poorly worded question.

The question shouldn't be "Is it OK to spank your child?", the question should be "Is it effective discipline to spank your child?" That answer to the latter is an unequivocal NO.

[Vorta]

19. Define effective.

I got the occasional swat to the bottom with bare hand. I also got the long fingernail grip on the shoulder when I needed a more discrete direction in church or social function.

When you are little, you have so much padding on your bottom, you can hardly feel it. It's the disapproval of your parent that makes you cry more often than not.

[mondo joe]

20. If spanking is effective why does it need to be repeated?

[moc]

29. Well, most discipline techniques have to be repeated.

Discipline is a process, not an event.

With that said, spanking isn't effective. The purpose of discipline is to teach. The only thing spanking teaches the child is that the parent is stronger/bigger than he is and can use force.

[moc]

22. Effective means it contributes to long term behavior change.

The literature on spanking shows that's effective for short term compliance but not for long term behavior change. (FWIW, I'm a parenting researcher, so I'm very familiar with this particular literature.)

[kiahzero]

27. Science isn't up for polling.

So your suggested replacement isn't really worthwhile... we know empirically that it's not effective, so what good is a poll on the topic?

[mondo joe]

32. The good would be pointing out to people who think it's effective that it's

not.

[kiahzero]

42. I suppose.

A well reasoned argument that it's not effective would seem to me to be more... well... effective.

[moc]

33. That's my point.

It's a stupid poll. The only other way to interpret "Is it OK to spank your kid" is "should parents be allowed to spank their kids". The only answer is sure; what are you going to do, put spanking parents in jail?

[kiahzero]

40. Well, no, you could just express societal condemnation.

You don't have to take away parents' ability to do it to be able to express moral condemnation of the practice.

[Vorta]

44. Americans are getting a little fed up with societal condemnation

Look at the people who have to stand outside their own establishment, a building they OWN, to smoke a cigarette because an idiotic amednment process allows majority rule to strip property rights.

[kiahzero]

66. That's a completely different issue.

I'd prefer not to turn this thread into a smoking flamewar.

[Vorta]

80. I'm new. I didn't know it had already been done. :)

[kiahzero]

84. Ah, sorry. (n/t)

[moc]

47. Well, I agree with you but I think our society is so far from

that that saying "Parents don't have the right to spank their children" will immediately turn people off and shut their mind off to the message you're trying to convey. For example, here in Texas, many school districts allow corporal punishment. It's still hard for me to believe that in this day and age, there are people who think it's okay to paddle a child.

[Vorta]

85. I got paddled in sixth grade.

I was given a choice: two (or three) swats with a ping pong paddle or six demerits. There was a little more to it. If you got paddled, you took your punishment and it was over as soon as the sting went away. If you took the demerits, they stayed with you through the end of the grading period and affected privileges. It made sense to take the paddle. The man who paddled me is perhaps my favorite teacher of all time, not because I'm kinky ( I think kink is silly) but because he was an excellent teacher and is a very good man. The style of the nuns was quite different. They were petty injustice collectors who never let you forget a single thing that you did.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Not Every Odious Behavior Is Or Should Be Made Illegal

eom

[moc]

50. Um...that's what I said.

[JuniperLea]

201. effective for short term compliance but not for long term behavior change.

That gave me a chuckle. If you tell a child 'no', chances are you will tell him/her 'no' 100 times. I have three kids. It was 100% effective long term. They were the best behaved kids in public of any kids I've ever known. They made up for it at home... where they were safe to yell, stomp, get their feelings out... but not to hit.

I have to laugh at those who try to say children must learn to hit. BS. They strike out with their hands without ever having seen it themselves. Some of them bite too. They have to be taught NOT to do those things.

I'm a mother of three (now adults) and I worked in a day care facility for five years and was a scout leader for about five. IMHO the most abused children are those who had parents that wanted to negotiate behavior.

[conservdem]

398. You an absolutist on this?

[Vorta]

13. I wonder what the results would be if you got parents to answer one poll and nonparents another.

[JuniperLea]

205. Very good point

You can't really know how you will feel about parenting until you've done it. Every idea I ever had about it changed when I had my own kids. And I mean every single one!

[HardRocker05]

402. shouldn't make any difference, should it? support your position w/ facts and logic

facts and logic or give it up. but then spanking is the opposite of facts and logic, isn't it? HA ha.

[Jcrowley]

15. No they will become vengeful

And keep them out of Catholic girls school also.

[silverweb]

17. Define "spank."

I'm okay with a swat on the butt -- with a hand only, and only if absolutely necessary -- but never anything more severe.

[Swamp Rat]

18. Only if it's W Sr. spanking W Jr.

:D

[stevedeshazer]

82. Love it.

Hee hee.

[tularetom]

21. I couldn't make a blanket statement but in general no

My parents spanked me occasionally but it was generally out of frustration I think - totally the wrong reason for spanking. If you are incapable of outsmarting a child, you can always beat on him. We never had to spank our oldest and we quickly discovered the younger one was immune to it - he just laughed at us. That was when we discovered psychological punishments worked better anyway - forced immobility, grounding etc.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

28. Spanking is not beating.

I don't think it's fair to seriously call it that.
Duckie

[philosophie_en_rose]

31. Spanking isn't beating, but it's not nothing.

It's a parent hurting their child, not out of illness or necessity or even impulse - but because they want to.

[sweetheart]

23. Just your monkey nt

[Mr_Spock]

24. Never did

Wanted to a few times :D

The poll is too black & white for me - just hollering at my kids as necessary was enough for me though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. It Was Intended To Be Binary

eom

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. It's not for us to determine

As with so many other issues debated here, we don't have the right to say what's right or wrong for other individuals.

[mondo joe]

35. We don't? I draw the line at "doesn't directlyt affect other people".

But spanking crosses that line.

[Oeditpus Rex]

39. I see

You apparently want a mandate on how people you don't even know discipline their kids.

If that's the case, we have nothing to talk about.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. What If They Want To Disclipline Their Kids By Hitting Them In The Face

It seems some people want to draw the line in a different place.

[Oeditpus Rex]

53. Now you're talking about physical harm

I won't play the straw man game.

[seabeyond]

74. my mom slapped me in the face when i mouthed off. didnt happen

often AT ALL. so... hurt me not. doesnt cause me to hate mom or beat my kids. she was a kick ass mom by any standards.

[ulysses]

97. :) I got slapped once.

Completely deserved it, too. 12 or 13 years old, mowing the back yard and mad at my parents for something...didn't figure anyone would hear me practicing my newly discovered cuss words over the mower. That's the day that I discovered that I have a fairly resonant voice. "Shit! Piss! Fuck!" was heard well down the street. Dad stalked out to where I was and slapped me. Just once, and the only time he ever hit my in my face.

[seabeyond]

100. you have me laughing. oh, that is bad... ya, mine was about that age

too. lol

[ulysses]

106. I **wanted** to be mad about it, too.

I probably stood stock still in the middle of the yard for a good ten minutes, trying to let myself get truly pissed off at having been slapped, but I couldn't do it. I knew as soon as I saw him coming that I deserved it. :D

[seabeyond]

117. well see, that is how i always felt about it when i got that type of discipline

my parents were creative and did not resort to that immediately or often. it had to be a certain point we got hit. we KNEW when we went to far. i have never seen it the way so many on this board expresses the "abuse" of it.

[ulysses]

120. exactly the point.

When Dad slapped me, I was shocked more than anything, simply because he so rarely resorted to physical punishment of any kind. When he did (one of the few spankings was the time I was trying to see how far my bike would coast down our street and coasted blithely across a major intersection without even looking), it got my attention. "Legal but rare", I guess. :)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

198. holy cow...you're channeling ... ME...

i did the same thing...wow...that is spooky. I never figured he could hear me over the mower. But my dad never hit me...he DID take the mower away and made me cut the rest of the yard with clippers...took a couple of days...

sP

[ulysses]

244. that was just so he could hear you better.

:D

[elehhhhna]

232. mine was Mommy Dearest -- closet toss, night raids, you name it.

Not me.

Tap on the diap it they wanted to run into traffic, maybe.
No more, and not since.

Did threaten to "flip your flapjack" once while waving a spatula, though.

[seabeyond]

247. and i think that is the hugest of difference. my parents loved me,

even when i got a whoppin. we knew this. we knew they werent getting a kick out of it. it tore them up above and beyond us, we could feel it in the parents. it wasnt abuse. it wasnt over the top. it wasnt to appease their anger. it was controlled.

now i
NEVER believed in the tap on the bottom for the street. i never believed a child two and under ever get spanked or even necessarily discipline. until above two i dont feel they are even capable, so they dont deserve and didnt with either child. i was with them always, following taking care of to insure their safety, ALWays. was my job

i.... could judge others if i so chose
i..... could be holier than thou

but, i dont. cause each of us is unique and i know what works for me is NOT going to work for all. all cannot do it my way. i cannot do it alls way.

so it is just silliness to demand it. i dont

and el... love, i am sorry you had that in your young journey. there is a higher in all. and you know what it gave you, (though the experience horrible) that you would not have otherwise, i hope. i am sorry. i had a real easy, real good childhood. and i am thankful. i can appreciate not all have that.

[elehhhhna]

277. Love you, too, seabe...

it wasn't all terrible, but a parent w/ undiagnosed depression and anxiety is a difficult parent, indeed.

My best fast-acting technique for reigning-in the gals is the embarrasmnet factor. I threaten to break into song and dance in public and they HOP TO!

Don't think I haven't done it, either. They KNOW I will. When they start sniping or bickering all I have to say is "I feel a song coming on..."

Drives them nuts & works like a charm!

[seabeyond]

281. creative parenting, and some child might want spanking over that

that is for sure.... lol lol. (i have done that to my kids too). generally those that remember a spanking as a negative in growing up also have other issue with parent.... as with all things. thank you for explaining. my youngest goes into anger with everything. if he is sad, hurt, angry.... it is expressed with anger and he cannot be comforted in the typical way. never has been able to, even from baby. with him i learned..... when he was very young that energy pent up in him needed to come out some way, could not be soothed. (many pc will have issue with this, oh well). so.... here he has miss behaved and i say, i am going to beat you.... in sing song. i pin him and tickle him and let him laugh and laugh and laugh to get that whatever out. i dont know why, it is like nothing i have seen and i dont know why this solution came to me, but has worked for 6 years. that is his discipline.

it is not cause he does not like tickling, he NEEDS it. just odd.

unique and individual

some parents could say it is more cruel than spanking. i, the parent, and my son will say, ... works for us.

all of this, one of my favorite subjects. can you tell, wink

[elehhhhna]

299. My oldest is like that, too!

Poor thing got the anxiety gene from my side. Her new focus on basketball helps a LOT in terms of blowing off pent-up energy and boosting her self-image and discipline. She just made the 7th greade A team and her coaches tell me she's a prodigy -- lemme brag a sec--and they've never seen a child her age w/ her natural ability and drive.

She's the starting foreward at their first game, on Thursday. Can't WAIT! Girl's got game!

Brag/off

[seabeyond]

303. well, excellent and isnt that just great. so much uniqueness

i could see how somethig to put the energy in will absolutely help so with this, he is just not old enough. i started piano lessons for that reason. pound out sound if need be, lol lol

ah that will be great el..... i am glad she found her "peace"

[elehhhhna]

319. Have you considered

tae-kwon-do?

We put Beanie in TKD when she was 7. She really blossomed. The focus, the exercise, the in-your-headness zen stuff from the "Master", etc. was a great outlet.

She dropped it when it was time to do the sparring. Our local TKD joint is run by Gold Medalist(!) Steven Lopez, his trainer, bro's & sister -- all champions (and a really nice family--their Mom's the cafeteria lady at our elem. school & a sweetheart), so they didn't let/make the new kids spar until they'd had months of training. Thank god.

She loved TKD but refused to kick other children in the head. GOOD! LOL

P.S. Is the above post considered bragging if one willingly admits that the kids just SHOWED UP that way and you consider your biggest accomplishment in childraising is "not having ruined them yet"?

[seabeyond]

326. i love this subject... my mother in law says, she takes credit when kid

is complimented, and doesnt when kid does wrong. i told my son..... doesnt feel right at all, caus ei dont take credit for any of it. it is all theirs. they make the decision to be good, they make the decision to be bad. that simple.

i also have a child with iq out of the roof...... saying that is it bragging... nah... just who he is. good bad and ugly. there is a higher in all, so even the child that doesnt have that iq has SOMETHING over my child. none of us better or less, and appreciate value the positive and love that negative. i say,.... perfectly imperfect

i was the athlete that could do anything. oldest is naturally inclined too. it is what your daughter does with it that is important. and that is all hers.....

i often tell kids i am proud, and i tell them i am not and i have high expectations, then i am really easy on some things. kids figure this all out....

and they love you


tae-kwon-do?

with this.... we tried a little a couple years ago. our problem..... we are lazy... lol lol. that is what i say but ot really the truth. our home is secure safe peace haven.... we love it. we just odnt like being busy in outside world.... i cannot get kids to do outside activity. there is so much here they want to do. maybe in time.... he is such a yin/yang child. i think something like that would be excellent for him. i dont like the sparring.... i want yoda.... last time we had instructor used demeaning to taunt kids to do.... i didnt ike it at all and pulled em out

[elehhhhna]

331. You may have read this, if not, I think you'll appreciate it.

My MIL , a SAINT -- has brought this passage to our attention time and time again over hte years -- it is her favorite primer on parenting, and she's one hell of an excellent parent, for sure:


Children

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of
Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit,
not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you
with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that
is stable.

-- Kahlil Gibran

[seabeyond]

335. right there. exactly. and with this will give a child the foundation

that will behoove them thru out life.

thank you

that is one of my favorites

[Puglover]

162. When I was a junior in HS I called

my mother a bitch at the dinner table, with company present. She cracked me across the face. I deserved it.

To this day I've never forgotten that incident. What? She was supposed to tell me in a caring tone just how much I had hurt her? Believe me, that would not have worked as well as that slap did. I wasn't hurt as much as humiliated and once again I totally deserved it.

[seabeyond]

170. oh oh, my hubby story. we tell it to this day. lol mouthed off to

mom disrespectfully and his father turned him, grabbed by neck and pushed up to wall and said, dont you ever talk to your mom that way. feet off the ground. he was a teenager too, and a good couple inches taller than father.

i swear, he looks at it as a loving memory.... doesnt have hard feelings. knew he deserved it. it was a huge lesson for him and appears he valued it

he has tremendous love and respect for his parents. in 40's. no breaking down of his bond with parents, if
anything instiled a greater respect

[Puglover]

171. Of course he does, as do I.

I failed to mention that my 6'8" brother told me he would personally beat the crap outta me if I pulled anything like that again. And I never did.

That slap was a wakeup and a very clear indicator that I was way WAY out of bounds. And as a smart assed teenager no talking to would have been as effective. However there are those in this thread that would equate that to abuse. To which I say...:eyes:

[seabeyond]

172. lol, yup.... and we look back and giggle. but everyone had a

role in this. and about every male i know has one of these stories. and every one of these males that end up be big football stars get camera on them and say..... hi mom.... lol lol. that is the pc silliness

and you know what is really offensive with the liberals on this board and some of the talk they spout. they are dissing my mom and my dad. they are telling me my parents didnt love me? abused me? and a big f* you to any of them. i lost my mom. she was sooooo grand. such a kick ass mom, lady, human being. beautiful. and the people on this board, promoting their agenda are really trying to make her less.

it couldnt be anymore offensive

[JuniperLea]

202. I got smacked for mouthing off

It worked just fine. I used it once on one of my three for the same reason... because it was witnessed by the other two, I never got mouthed back to again by any of them.

You really only have to do something like that one time with mouthy kids... then you have to develop "the look"... then all you need is the look:)

[mondo joe]

56. A. I did not call for a mandate; B. I do believe people - even children - have

rights. That may include the right to not be assaulted.

[Oeditpus Rex]

59. Spanking = assault?

I'm getting the hell out of this thread before reality is stretched beyond even Timothy Leary's limits.

[mondo joe]

62. If you did it to another adult what would it be considered?

[ulysses]

64. how is that germaine?

A child is not an adult.

[mondo joe]

83. But assault is assault.

Or so it can be argued.

[ulysses]

93. is any physical act assault?

If I jerk a child out of the path of an onrushing car, is it assault?

[mondo joe]

99. If you jerk an adult out of the path of the same car would it be assault?

No, it wouldn't.

Try again.

[ulysses]

105. ok, let me put it to you this way.

I'm learning from experience the degree to which it can be difficult to get a young child's attention when that child is focused on something. If that child is intent on, say, feeding Mr. Fork to Mr. Socket and isn't listening to calm, repeated warnings to the effect of "no", I hold that it is not assault to swat the child's backside as opposed to letting him electrocute himself.

In the case of an adult intent on the same activity, I don't imagine that I would spank, but would rather restrain as necessary and, if said adult was in my care, refer him for evaluation by a licensed professional.

[mondo joe]

108. I can only tell you that I survived without ever being spanked, and my two kids

have as well.

I can only conclude there must be some non violent way to get kids through childhood, since it happens.

[ulysses]

111. I'm not saying there's not.

As I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I don't think I was spanked more than eight times in my entire childhood, if that many times. I have no doubt that some kids never need it. That doesn't make its judicious use an inherent evil, though.

[mondo joe]

112. I've yet to see someone "need it". That's the sort of thing husbands sometimes

say about hitting their wives.

[ulysses]

114. nice ad hominem.

See my post above about being slapped - I needed it then.

[mondo joe]

116. You needed it because you swore?

You went from saving a life as your hypothetical to not wanting certain words to be used as your practical example.

Pretty loose definition of "need".

[ulysses]

119. I'm not here to define "need" for you.

And no, I didn't need it because I swore - I needed it because I was being a self-absorbed adolescent asshole. Nothing more was said about it, and I quit being a dick in my parents' back yard. It was justified.

[mondo joe]

125. So you went from it being a life-or-death need to a justified act because you were

"a dick".

Thanks.

It's funny how often hitting a child is necessary to save a life in the hypothetical, but how extraordinarily rare it is in practice.

[ulysses]

126. from another post of mine in the thread

"one of the few spankings was the time I was trying to see how far my bike would coast down our street and coasted blithely across a major intersection without even looking"

Hope that makes you feel better. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

127. And being hit was the only thing that would prevent you from doing such

a thing again?

Interesting.

[ulysses]

128. well, I don't know.

Neither do you. I do know that at that age (7-ish), having a discussion about it wouldn't have made nearly as great an impression.

[mondo joe]

129. I see. I wonder about parents who can't make an impression on their children -

or not enough of an impression.

Tell me, those kids and adolescents who need to be hit or deserve it, what do you think happens to them in adulthood? Do they still require being hit to learn or to get their attention, or does that quality change after age 18?

[ulysses]

130. wow - awfully superior of you.

I see. I wonder about parents who can't make an impression on their children

See, I wonder about people who make judgments about other people without any remote understanding of how things work in their lives. My parents and I discussed a great many things when I was a child (we still do, in fact), and those discussions make their impressions on me. But it's one thing to have a discussion about, say, how things are going in school, and another to get across to a fairly blissed-out seven-year-old that he must never, ever ride his bike through traffic or he could be killed.

Sorry, but it was completely justified.

Tell me, those kids and adolescents who need to be hit or deserve it, what do you think happens to them in adulthood? Do they still require being hit to learn or to get their attention, or does that quality change after age 18?

Since all either of us has is anecdotal evidence concerning this, I'll just point out that I'm a well-adjusted 37-year-old who does not have to be hit to learn. Nor am I an abusive husband or father. I suppose you'll tell me otherwise, though...

[mondo joe]

132. Ah, but the thing I wonder about is how they couldn't make an impression.

I suspect your parents could have made quite an impression even without violence.

[ulysses]

133. not by sitting me down and having a calm discussion about it.

Wouldn't have been the same urgency.

And I have to say that the use of the word "violence" is a little dramatic for a single, openhanded whack on a fully clothed behind.

[mondo joe]

137. I give your parents more credit than that.

As to the whack, are you now saying it was no big deal because it was single, openhanded and on a fully clothed behind?

You seem to be wavering between it being necessary because it was the only thing dramatic enough to get your attention, and so undramatic as to be barely there.

[ulysses]

138. I never said it was a failure on their part.

:shrug:

As to the whack, are you now saying it was no big deal because it was single, openhanded and on a fully clothed behind?

No. I said that the use of the word "violence" was a little dramatic to describe the experience.

[mondo joe]

142. Just the same, it's interesting that what you've described as such a minor

act would get your attention beyond anything your parents could say or do.

[ulysses]

143. I'm not sure why you insist on putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say it was a minor act.

Actually, I suspect that I do know why you're putting words in my mouth.

[mondo joe]

145. Sorry - please let me ask for clarification.

When your parent struck you, was it minor or was it significant?

If it was minor, how did it get your attention?

If it was not minor, why would striking someone in a significant way NOT be considered violence?

[ulysses]

147. **sigh**

It was significant, precisely because it happened so rarely.

If it was not minor, why would striking someone in a significant way NOT be considered violence?

"Violence" is a very loaded word, as you evidently know quite well, and conjures images of beatings, drunken rages and bruises at a minimum. Being at the very most lightly stung on the behind with an open hand as a rarely-applied corrective measure doesn't meet that loaded standard to my mind.

[mondo joe]

150. "At the very most lightly stung"?

How amazing that being at the very most lightly stung could be so powerful in getting your attention and compliance.

[ulysses]

151. pain isn't the point.

When punishment becomes an exercise in the infliction of pain, then I'd say that it crosses into abuse. And it wasn't so much about compliance as it was about making me think.

But yes - as rarely as it happened to me, it was a powerful experience.

[Dorian Gray]

212. I would like to suggest that

it was not the swearing that was problematic. Rather, it was the disrespectful attitude.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. You Would Be Acting Heroically

How is spanking a defenseless child akin to saving someone's life?

[stanwyck]

367. Exactly

So. Because you're bigger and stronger you're going to use your superior strength on the child. Which teaches the child, what? That bigger is better? Might makes right?
What is the message here? I'm going to hurt you because I have no other resources in order to make you understand me?
Spanking is the refuge of bad parenting.

[Spirochete]

67. Foreplay?

[nonconformist]

141. What if you "grounded" an adult? That would be false imprisonment.

But if you ground your child, it's an acceptable punishment.

You simply cannot argue that punishment handed down to a child should also be appropriate for an adult, because it's just not the same thing.

[mondo joe]

148. Nor can you argue that nothing is comparable.

Most people will concede that it is not acceptable to assault a child.

Now we're just dickering about what constitutes assault.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

155. Society "Grounds" People For Misbehavior

It's called imprisonment.

[Hosnon]

280. Yeah...society does it. You try it and see if you get sued or not. nt

[mondo joe]

322. It wouuld clearly depend on the circumstances. n/t

[Hosnon]

324. Well there are few instances when a citizen can lawfully restrict the movement

of another.

But I believe the analogy was to grounding. Next time a neighbor stays out too late, let him/her try to "ground" the neighbor by saying s/he can't leave the house.

False imprisonment.

[mondo joe]

336. We'd have to see if it were covered by those instances in which one can

lawfully restrict the movement of another.

But that aside, we have legally endowed certain people with that right over other adults.

We have not endowed people with the right to hit others, except in self defense. (Bush stance on torture notwithstanding.)

[Hosnon]

343. It's probably not. I believe it usually requires a belief that a crime was committed

or something to that extent, not simply that the other person stayed out too late in the opinion of the "jailer".

And we have legally endowed the state, and by extension, certain people (executive branch) with the right to imprison people. But it is very rare that an individual can imprison someone and those exceptions usually involve a legal fiction where state authority is assumed by the person for a limited time.

The state can't spank someone but that is not the point.

My point was to show that because society can do something doesn't mean that an individual person can do that thing as well.

Noncomformist pointed out that the same rules that are in play between two adults are not in play between an adult and a child:

What if you "grounded" an adult? That would be false imprisonment.

Parents can legally "ground" children; one individual cannot legally (for the most part) "ground" another individual. DemocratSinceBirth tried to dispell noncomformist's argument by saying that society does "ground" people. I pointed out that it is a completely different ballgame if the state/society does it.

That is my point. There is a different relationship between an adult and a child than between two adults and pointing out that society can ground an adult has no bearing on that fact.

[mondo joe]

349. The state can "ground" people for whom it has custodial status, just

as parents can. But only in the latter is the custodial unit permitted to strike.

The ball game isn't that different - the question is the same: who has responsibility.

[Hosnon]

354. Right...the state can "ground" people.

The distiction I am making is between the state doing it on the one hand and another individual on the other.

I realize that the state can't spank you...again, that is not my point.

My point is that simply because the state can do something (imprison an individual) does not mean that an individual can do the same. I was pointing out the error in DemocratSinceBirth's rebuttal to noncomformist. There is a difference between these three relationships:

1) State vs. adult individual

2) Adult individual vs. adult individual and

3) Adult individual vs. minor individual

Pointing out what is legal in one relationship does not mean that it is legal in another. In 3, the latter can be "grounded". Also, in 1, the latter can be "grounded". However, in 2, the latter cannot be "grounded" (again, in most circumstances - most likely including a hypothetical "grounding").

Noncomformist pointed out the distinction between 2 and 3. DemocratSinceBirth brought in 3 in an attempt to show that adults can be grounded. My point in responding to DemocratSinceBirth was to show that 1 and 2 are not the same thing.

[mondo joe]

360. In both cases, however, some entity is granted custodial rights

over individuals. In one case it is the state that has custodial rights over prisoners, and parents have the same over minors.

And in both cases there are legal protections in place to ensure the rights of the custodial person.

Are theythe SAME thing? No. But there are similarities.

And one of them is that in both cases the custodian has the authority to limit movement. Only in one is the custodian permitted to hit at will.

[Hosnon]

362. I completely agree that there are similarities between

state vs. adult individual and adult individual vs. minor individual.

But DemocratSinceBirth attempted to compare state vs. adult individual and adult individual vs. adult invididual with regard to imprisonment.

Saying that the state can "ground" an adult individual lends little to the proposition that one adult individual can "ground" another adult individual.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

378. I Think My Point Was That Grounding Folks Is A Legitimate Form Of Punishment

I don't think hitting people who can't hit you back (children for instance) is a legitimate form of punishment.

[mondo joe]

391. Or, IMO, a legitimate form of conduct.

The question might as well be "Do you think it's acceptable to hit people who are smaller and weaker than you" or "who can't fight back".

That's what I think it amounts to.

I have in the past said I think the only time you should be able to hit someone is if they are big enough to kick the shit out of you.

[bicentennial_baby]

146. Hell yes it is assault...

Are you hitting another human being without the threat of due harm to yourself? Then yes, it's assault...sorry :shrug:

[slackmaster]

230. No, assault requires intent to cause harm

If the intent of physically striking a child is to PREVENT harm, how could that be assault?

Are you hitting another human being without the threat of due harm to yourself?

How about use of force to prevent harm to someone other than yourself, e.g. the child?

[mondo joe]

239. You'd have to prove hitting someone prevents harm.

And you can't.

[slackmaster]

260. The guard rail that one light smack to the butt stopped my stepson from climbing

Presenting the Waimea Canyon overlook in Hawaii:



The year was 1989. My stepson was five years old. The sheer cliff on the other side is about 500 feet high. On the other side of that guard rail there is nothing to stand on, just empty space with shifting gusty winds and jagged rocks below. It's the kind of exposed height that makes my hands and feet sweat just thinking about it. The view is incredible. When I was there with my family, there was no fog and visibility was good.

I can't prove that striking the boy stopped him from falling off the cliff, but it did get him to listen to his mother's orders not to climb the railing. He stopped climbing and listened. He did not cry.

You'd have to prove hitting someone prevents harm.

And you can't

No, I can't. But you can't prove that it didn't.

I excercised my judgement as a 31-year-old man. Since he wasn't listening, we had to do something to force him to stop his obviously dangerous behavior. The boy wasn't harmed, and thankfully I never had to make such a decision again. You are free to second-guess my action, and frankly I think that at 48 I might handle the situation differently. But no harm was done, and I have never regretted it.

[Susang]

241. No, they're hitting to punish

Or haven't you been reading the "anecdotal" evidence? Unless you can demonstrate how stopping someone from swearing is preventing them from harm. Or being disrespectful. So far, there have been very few stories of impending physical harm and quite a lot of stories containing punishment for talking back to parents or other such non-life-threatening behavior.

Sorry, slapping a child across the face is violent, whether the slapee wants to admit it or not. I was slapped across the face once or twice as a child, and while I can't say it scarred me for life, it sure as hell didn't do me any good. I'm still loud, opinionated, and I swear. Lot of good those slaps for "sassing back" did me. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

256. Who said anything about slapping a child across the face?

Thanks for introducing a Straw Man into the discussion.

Now take it away.

[Susang]

364. Several posters above mentioned it several times

Did you actually read the thread before posting in it? You might want to try that tactic before accusing people of introducing straw men into the discussion. Your response was rude, uncalled for and added absolutely nothing to this discussion. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

381. I Second That...

More than one poster opined that slapping a child is a legitimate form of punishment. It demonstrates that "spanking" is the gateway activity to more malevolent forms of discipline...

When Sean Connery opined that it's "o k to slap a hysterical woman to calm her down" he was rightfully pilloried by feminist groups and all right thinking people. I would argue that a grown woman is better able to withstand a slap to the face than a little boy or girl...

[slackmaster]

389. You were responding to MY POST Susang

I am not responsible for anyone else's posts, and I have NEVER advocated slapping a child in the face.

Your response was rude, uncalled for and added absolutely nothing to this discussion.

Maybe if you kept better track of who you are responding to you wouldn't feel so persecuted.

[Puglover]

163. No shit, hold the door for me. n/t

[MUSTANG_2004]

175. Sure we do

We don't have the right to ENFORCE it, but we certainly have the right to say it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. You should only beat your child until YOU feel better.

As a psych teacher once answered a mother in one of my psych classes who asked the same question.

Which is the truth of why most parents abuse their kids.

[Horse with no Name]

38. Only if you think it is okay to smack adults around

when they misbehave.
Seriously, my daughter and I go round and round on this subject.
She thinks it is discipline. I think it is abuse.
It is a way for an adult to vent their frustrations at someone who can't hit back. Most of the times, it is pent up anger from other things that the adult had no control over.

[moc]

41. It's not discipline. It may or may not be abusive.

Discipline teaches. Spanking doesn't teach. Ergo, spanking is not discipline.

However, in order to be abusive it must cross a certain line in terms of intensity. A swat on the bottom isn't abuse.

[Horse with no Name]

45. It's an abuse of trust

Children should know that adults aren't going to hurt them.

[moc]

51. I agree wholeheartedly with you there.

I just think you have to be careful throwing around the "abuse" word. It brings images of CPS knocking at your door, etc.

[Horse with no Name]

54. Not all abuse leaves bruises...

at least on the outside.

[moc]

68. I know that.

I'm a parenting researcher and my husband is a social worker. I'm well aware of the dimensions of abuse. However, a swat on the butt doesn't qualify.

[seabeyond]

77. i dont know that it is MOST of the time. i know it is TOO often

my parents used spanking as discipline and i dont ever remember a time when i thought it was out of anger and not a punishment from behavior. maybe that is why i am not opposed to it being used by parents, because of how my parents used it, as a punishment tool. i hated spankings so i did everything in my power to behave and not get them. oldest brother did care about them, and got them, wasn't a deterrent. my middle brother just wanted attention, good bad or ugly he didn't care, needless to say, not effective for him either.

i personally have not found a use for them in my parenting. my mom would watch me with my kids and felt my parenting was more effective, hence why i have chosen my way, but she guilted herself for it, and that is just wrong. i never felt the need for her to feel guilty and all she gave as a parent, thought it just sad that she chose that route at the end of her life. she gave her life to us kids. big deal.... spanking were insignificant to all she gave me as a mom.

[William Bloode]

346. I'll buy that for a buck.

I think it's ok to smack an adult around. Sometimes people can be assholes, and abusive, and a good ass kickin' may be allright.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Would it have been OK for poppy to spank dubya?

I vote yes!

[mondo joe]

57. He probably did. Might explain part of who he is today. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. Obviously he should have used a bigger paddle. n/t

[ThomWV]

48. Very very rarely

[dchill]

52. Yes. Children are damaged MORE...

by not being spanked when they need it than by being spanked.

[moc]

72. How is that?

Are you saying it's not possible to discipline effectively without spanking?

[dchill]

235. I'm saying that it's not...

always possible to discipline effectively without spanking.

[moc]

325. Sure it is. It is ALWAYS possible to discipline without spanking.

[gollygee]

76. Huh?

Where does that come from?

Are you assuming that there are only two options - 1. spank, 2. do nothing at all?

[dchill]

234. "2. do nothing at all?"

Of course not. Other methods are just less effective for altering bad behavior. That is my studied opinion. I am a grandfather who has observed and tried all the "alternatives" - and, in some cases, they prove somewhat effective. But I have also seen a spanking work after several "time-outs" have failed.

I must also add that spanking is never the first option.

[gollygee]

273. Your opinion is based only on your experiences

almost every expert in child rearing and child psychology disagrees with you.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[moc]

328. You are correct. Spanking is not considered effective discipline.

I'm speaking as both a parent and as a parenting researcher.

[dchill]

374. "opinion is based only on your experiences"

Gee, who'd ever base an opinion on their experiences?
:sarcasm:

[gollygee]

387. Some people include scientific evidence when they

form opinions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

405. Yeah- I thought the other guys relied on faith...

eom

[Alfalfa Wolf]

55. It's the parents who need to be spanked....

....whenever they refuse to spank their children....

[seabeyond]

58. cant answer. it is not ok for me, but i wont speak for another... n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. Sounds like the Bu$h Doctrine

Corporal punishment validates fear, pain, intimidation, and violence as acceptable means of resolving conflicts.

[AndyTiedye]

63. Some Kids Learn to Enjoy Being Spanked

and then their parents wonder why they misbehave so much :think:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. If you spank a child regularly he/she will grow up to be sneaky

and will attempt to solve problems with violence. However, if your child can get away with ANYTHING, like telling you to shut up, hitting you, etc., and never, ever gets a quick swat (I'm talking a few in a lifetime here) they will have an equally skewed vision of the worlld...one where the worst that can happen to them is timeout and a discussion of consequences and choices. The world just doesn't work that way.

I believe a child should understand that there is a limit and if that limit is breached, then a parent might do something unusual or out of character. I'm not talking the belt here, or a "I'll put you across my knees" but a response that might include something they would rather not experience.

I don't think I hit my kids more than once a piece. Once when my toddler attempted to put a fork in an outlet, and another time when my 10-year old told me to shut up. However, after that, when I was angry with them, a sudden movement in their direction had immediate results.

But it is a slippery slope and balance is the key. In my 35 years teaching I've seen a lot of kids who are products of various parenting styles, and the extremes on either end don't produce a well-adjusted kid.

[seabeyond]

69. ornery 9 and almost 12 yr olds

what i am surprised with. i dont spank, haven't found it necessary. but the mouth, talking to me disrespectfully. i rarely have it with my boys. but every time there is a tone i dont address what we are talking, but stop immediately and say, please dont speak to me like that.

and it works. and it is RARE. now i dont have teenagers so dont know how bad it will get but i think the big one is.... i have never allowed strangers, friends, family, hubby anyone to talk ugly to me. i will walk if anyone does. i just do not allow it. and that is the lesson for my boys that keeps them from speaking out. i listen to them. they to me. two way respect. dont give it to me, i wont give it to you. consistent as a parent with that attitude has worked wonders for me as a parent.

the consistency takes time though. i think that is where a lot of parents fail. it is each and every time. oh.... and the boys watching my teenage niece rolling her eyes at me and me whipping around on her and verbally taking her down,.... to be heard clear down the block.... bah hahahahah.

you are right on in your post, it is just that one sentence made me want to tell my story. lol.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. That last sentence is so true

The types of parents who act as if their house is West Point and the kids are plebes who have to stand at attention, etc. produce screwed-up adults.

So do the types of parents who believe that it will stifle their children's creativity if they ever have to do anything they don't want to.

My mom the kindergarten teacher said that the absolute worst parenting style is the type where the parents let the kids run wild until THEY can't take it anymore, at which point they start screaming and hitting.

I've seen cases in which kids were allowed to run wild in restaurants or other public places, doing really annoying and even dangerous things, when all of a sudden Mom or Dad will lay into them for not sitting up straight or for drumming on the table.

In such cases, you have to wonder what kind of moral development is possible for such children, when drumming on the table draws a more extreme parental reaction than pushing one's sibling out of the restaurant booth and onto the floor.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

161. You know, I've come to the conclusion

that parenting just isn't for everybody, and happily, folks seem to be realizing that. I would rather see a set of parents who are good at it have four kids, while maybe their siblings (the parents) don't have any, because they just don't have the gift. Or the energy.

This is what has happened in my family. I don't think my son and his wife will have any, and frankly, I think they would have problems as parents. I think it would really destroy their lives. But my daughter and her husband are naturals. She has two and is thinking about a third. My son and his wife are AWESOME uncle and aunt, however. Very close to the kids and very important in their lives.

[Arkana]

70. Oh, here we go again....

Voting yes.

*dons flameproof suit*

[tinfoilinfor2005]

75. No, the only exception being if the child doesn't understand

certain dangers and continuously repeats putting himself in a dangerous situation, ex., running in the road, playing with electric outlets, teasing pets. And then only a quick smack on the bottom with an explanation emphasizing your concern for their safety.

I experienced frequent and brutal physical punishment and it alienated me from my parents. I think kids are very sensitive and don't require a belt, black and blue welts, and long lasting scars to understand their parent's wishes.

[nemo137]

95. My parents had the same exception.

I was only spanked when I did something that put me in real, physical danger.

[Pastiche423]

79. Hell No

The world is violent enough. Why teach your children violence?

[Jed Dilligan]

81. I don't know. How common is spanking among

middle class families today?

My answer is, whatever most of them are doing is wrong because their kids mostly suck.

[seabeyond]

92. well that s certainly sad. i guess your generation, whichever it may

be was oh so much more special.

i am sure your post is just a flippant remark to not only jab at a bunch of defensiveless kids... but to the parents themselves. good to soo you hold fellowman so dear

[Jed Dilligan]

96. Wherever I go, there are kids totally out of control

Just bashing into things and making as much noise as they can.

Whether they are or aren't being spanked, I think the opposite should be tried.

[seabeyond]

98. and i am sure as a child you nicely

and quietly sat with hands on lap and didnt speak until spoken too.

what i have found consistent is the non parent insisting that all kids are out of control, IF they act like kids. not going to argue with you on this. i simply dont agree. i am not confronted with out of control kids often at all. i guess it is the different areas we live in, who is to know

[Jed Dilligan]

136. Kids and adults should act appropriately to the situation,

supermarket aisle behavior and playground behavior should not be the same.

[rexcat]

86. Only a bully would hit a defenseless child.

Having said that I have two children and there are times when I would love to smack them to get their attention but that would not be the right thing to do. Our kids actually respond to other forms of punishment. Taking away privileges is devastating to them and more effective than violence.

[JerseygirlCT]

88. Absolutely. Besides the concern about what

violence to make a point teaches them.

[mondo joe]

102. Spanking is an adult having a tantrum, IMO.

[JerseygirlCT]

107. Yup. And while I've wanted to have one a few times,

(who hasn't?), it wouldn't help anything, and would hurt. Where's the sense in that?

It's certainly more difficult to take the time and the energy to explain things to kids. And to discipline them properly (privileges, time-out). I suppose I see the attraction of a fast and easy swat. But like many things that seem so easy, it's not a good idea.

[mondo joe]

110. Me too. I chalk it up to being one of the many ill-advised things I

sometimes want to do - which almost always amounts to losing control.

[Orsino]

90. Sometimes.

Violence should always be a last resort, and as such, it is an admission of failure. It may occasionally be the only way to get a child's attention, however, so I don't rule it out completely.

[AZBlue]

101. Of course it is. And we'd all be better off if more parents did.

An occasional spank (not hard, not constant) is not a bad thing when a misbehaving child is beyond that point of reason and logic (and anyone who has a child knows that point).

[wtmusic]

182. question

do you have kids?

[moobu2]

103. should never hit anyone, defenseless child or not, it’s always an assault

[moobu2]

104. self delete

[earth mom]

109. NO! And has DU turned into the Twilight Zone or what?!

Either that or the freepers have infested the place because that poll is seriously skewed! :wtf:

IMO, Spanking changes WHO a child is plus it teaches him that violence is acceptable and that it's okay to hit others.

Better to implement a reward system (points for younger kids or money for older kids) to use to get good behavior. If the child acts out start taking privileges away such as t.v. or video games and make them earn them back. Works for our family!

[gollygee]

115. A voice of reason

:loveya:

thank you :D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

157. You're Not The Only One Who Is Puzzled.

eom

[MUSTANG_2004]

177. You left one off the list

It's demeaning. I don't think people should be treated that way, whether their children or not.

We have two elementary age kids who are growing up just fine (studious, polite, reasonably obedient) who have never been physically disciplined. Spanking is completely unnecessary.

[wtmusic]

184. no freaking kidding

The timeout, and time spent with your kids, are the only tools a parent needs.

[slackmaster]

211. Sometimes children do very dumb things, and spanking gets their attention

Better to implement a reward system (points for younger kids or money for older kids) to use to get good behavior.

I'll agree that rewarding a child for, say, not playing with matches is a good idea. But what kind of consequences would you prescribe for a child who has been warned about playing with matches and burns the house down?

[mondo joe]

218. There are many, and better, ways to get attention. n/t

[wtmusic]

222. The consequences should be stern

The parent should go to jail for leaving matches around a child who hasn't yet learned how to use matches safely.

[Telly Savalas]

251. Smack 'em.

If a parent leaves a child in a dangerous situation, then the parent should be hit to get his/her attention and teach the importance of properly looking after their child.

[gollygee]

306. A child of that age shouldn't have matches within reach

and it's the adult's fault for leaving matches where a child of that age could reach them and play with them.

If children aren't well supervised and therefore have access to something dangerous, it isn't the fault of the child.

[mondo joe]

380. People keep giving hypotheticals about life-or-death situations.

But as you read about the actual spankings, you find more often than not there was no emergent situation.

[gollygee]

397. Even in supposed "life or death" situations

the answer is to supervise the child properly. I mean, if you had spanked a toddler in an attempt to teach the toddler to not touch matches, would you then feel safe leaving the toddler unsupervised around matches? I sincerely doubt that.

My dad said I should have spanked my daughter to keep her from going into the street. And I said, "Do you figure it would be safe to let her play in the front yard unsupervised at this age (I think she was like 18 months) once she'd been spanked?" He said no, and I said, "Then why spank? I'll still have to watch her and grab her if she goes toward the street."

[Hosnon]

285. I was spanked and don't have an ounce of violence in me. I could be the exception

to your rule but I don't think so.

So long as it is not the normal punishment and remains the punishment for the worst 1% of possible child behavior, I think it can be a good thing.

Most religions have figured out that a mix of positive and negative rewards works best:)

[gollygee]

316. It's statistical

Statistically, the more violence used, the more violent the kids.

That doesn't mean every single child who is spanked will become violent. Also, the more often and severe the spankings, the more violent kids would be - again statistically.

Kids who are never spanked are statistically very unlikely to become violent.

[Hosnon]

320. Well I admitted that I could be the exception to the rule.

But I don't know if it can be boiled down to that simple of a causal relationship. There is a big difference betweens spanking as punishment and spanking as abuse.

I would think the statistics are pretty even between children who were not spanked and children who were spanked as punishment for only the most severe behavior.

It's the children that get spanked for less than a good reason that probably are more statistically inclined to violence.

[gollygee]

323. "less than a good reason" is very subjective

Who is to say what a good reason is? Even parents who spank look back and say that perhaps they spanked sometimes for reasons they shouldn't have.

Also, children learn primarily from modeling their parents. So if they're being spanked to not do X, not doing X is not what is primarily learned. The primary thing learned is that the way to get someone to not do something is to hit them.

[Hosnon]

329. I agree. I posted earlier that it should be reserved for the top 1% of bad

behavior.

I was spanked and I knew what I did was horribly wrong. My Dad had "good reason".

So if they're being spanked to not do X, not doing X is not what is primarily learned. The primary thing learned is that the way to get someone to not do something is to hit them.

That is a bit of a leap from a specific instance to a general rule. Perhaps the primary thing learned is that the way to get someone to not do X is to hit them but I can't accept generalizing X all the way to something.

So long as X is in the top 1% of bad behavior I think it teaches a child not to do X.

[Synnical]

118. Never - Welcome to the No Spank Zone

http://www.nospank.net/main.htm



Granted, an extreme example:

The spanking, torture and murder of 4-year-old Aiyana Gauvin

http://www.nospank.net/gauvin.htm

Stepsister tells jury of Aiyana's ordeal
By SOPHIA VORAVONG
[e-mail]

Journal & Courier, November 2, 2006
When Michelle Gauvin's daughter invited friends to her house south of Lafayette, they avoided the kitchen area -- where her younger stepsister, Aiyana Gauvin, was likely being restrained nearby.

She testified Wednesday afternoon in the terminal child neglect trial of her stepfather, Christian Gauvin, saying both parents in the home had beaten and tied up Aiyana on multiple occasions.

"I didn't want anybody to know she was there," she said in a soft voice. "I didn't know what they would say ... having an abused sister there."

The Journal & Courier is not naming the girl to protect her identity.

Michelle's daughter offered what could be the most compelling testimony this week -- being one of only a few people to see firsthand Aiyana being paddled with a broken cutting board, struck with a belt and strapped to plastic gates.

I was spanked as a child, and later in life had two abusive relationships. All that abuse didn't take the "spunk" out of me, but it was definitely humilating - I couldn't stand up for myself - typical of "Battered Spouse Syndrome." I'm not suggesting there is a correlation between spanking and later abuseive relationships, because I don't know if there is, but I know that when I was spanked all I felt was humiliated, not "corrected".

What crap.

[LeftyMom]

121. "Spank" is a bullshit euphemism. Spanking is hitting, and hitting a child is never appropriate.

This argument that hitting children is integral to discipline is stupid. There are whole countries where hitting of children is banned and they all seem to be raising less violent, better educated children than the child thumping cro magnons here in the USofA are.

[Catherine Vincent]

122. What?!?! You don't believe in Spanking?!

Go outside and break me a switch right now!

:sarcasm:

[rucky]

123. I vote, "OK," but not effective. n/t

[Geek_Girl]

124. Other

I don't spank my child because I feel it's unnecessary. But I think parents should be able to discipline their children how they see fit.

[krispos42]

131. I just spank other people's kids instead :-) n/t

[ulysses]

134. LOL!

[Mr_Spock]

135. ding ding ding!!!

...we have a winner folks!

People seem to take this issue WAY to seriously. ;)

[Generic Brad]

139. Only if it's okay for your child to kick your crotch with everything they've got

And if you don't want that to happen, then don't hit your kid.

[laundry_queen]

140. I voted no.

I often receive compliments on how well behaved my children are (not compliments - gushing actually, it's quite embarrassing sometimes). We don't spank. My parents did. I remember feeling humiliated and thinking about how I'd love to hurt them as they hurt me and being filled with hate and helplessness at the same time. Not something I want my children to feel.
That and the fact that many far right Christian fundamentalists advocate it as discipline make me run far, far away from it.
I believe that spanking is the lazy way out. There are SO many other ways to discipline or grab your child's attention. The parent has to actually care enough to want to find other ways however, and that is rare ("I was spanked and I'm fine"). Not spanking has also been given a bad rap because so many parents who know they don't want to spank, don't take the time to research other ways of child rearing and end up with no guidance or discipline in their households - which is also harmful.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

144. My mom the former kindergarten teacher

believes that spanking is occasionally necessary to stop a kid who is insisting on doing something dangerous or destructive, such as a toddler who is attracted to the pretty campfire and wants to touch it. You can say "no," but the kid keeps on trying to go towards the fire. (You know how toddlers can take off like a flash when they get an idea in their heads?) The situation is such that you can't just hang onto the kid, because you have other things to do. Even if you can hang on, the minute you let go, the kid treats it as a game--"Let's see if the adult can catch me before I reach the pretty campfire." (I once had people visiting, and their three-year-old daughter was intent on tearing my house plants apart. Her mother would hold the child back for a bit, then let her go. The kid would run toward the house plants, laughing gleefully, and the mother would run and scoop her up. Repeat for the whole evening. I was amazed that the fabled short attention span of toddlers didn't kick in.)

That's the situation where you say "no" and give the kid one slap across the butt. Since they're usually wearing diapers at that semi-verbal stage, it doesn't really hurt them. However, it gives a physical reinforcement for the "no" that may not be penetrating their brain.

But under ordinary circumstances, such as the child defying a parental order or, worst of all, a parent spanking a child to make it stop crying, I'd say no.

[bleedingheart]

165. I can never understand the dipshits that spank to stop a crying child

I just never can understand that.

I spanked my toddlers if they were in harms way...running toward the road. Trying to mess with the stove etc.

Never for anything else and now because they are older...I never spank.

[ulysses]

245. I'll second that.

"I'll give you something to cry about."

*That's* dumb.

[raccoon]

297. "I'll give you something to cry about."

I think anybody who says that should be shot. :evilgrin:

[raccoon]

301. Now, I can see that. While I'm against spanking, what you say makes sense.

I was spanked as a child and it didn't teach me a DAMN thing.

It wasn't about anything I or my siblings did or didn't do; it was about my mother being pissed off.

I think most of the time that's the way it is.

[gollygee]

318. Toddlers shouldn't be left to wander around campfires

the problem isn't that toddlers are attracted to campfires. Of course they are and spanking isn't going to change that.

Parents have to have their child literally in their reach every single second if their toddler is near a campfire. If a toddler is hurt near a campfire, it is not the fault of the toddler, it's the fault of the parent for not adequately supervising them.

Punish a toddler for being a toddler? OR punish a toddler because the parents want to put a toddler in a dangerous situation? That's awful.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

347. I'm not talking about punishment, here

Just a swift tap on the butt to bring home the message that is not getting through verbally. It's a physical reinforcement saying, "When I use that tone of voice, you'd better think of it as the 'emergency broadcasting system'."

It makes for the difference between a child who can be taken into otherwise off-limits environments and one who has to be physically restrained every second.

My parents collected china, and because they had the "emergency broadcasting system" voice down, they could take us into china shops in Canada from a very early age, and we knew we weren't supposed to touch anything or run in the aisles. We knew because they went over the rules in their schoolteacher voices before we went into each shop.

There's a difference between routinely spanking for punishment (which I don't believe in) and using a last-resort measure to keep a child from doing something dangerous or destructive.

I think I was spanked maybe three times in my entire childhood.

[SoCalDem]

149. Our kids are bigger than we are..so I say NO

:)

[undergroundpanther]

153. No.

The imbalance of power between a child and parent makes spanking abuse. A child has to,DEPEND on their parents for everything, So spanking is a kind of betrayal,of trust, it shows the parent is not safe...If parents were in a situation where they were being 'taken care of' by other adults and hit by those adults for the sorts of egotistical authoritarian type bullshit kids get hit by their parents for most often they'd sue. Kids are one of the most powerless populations and most child abuse happens at the hands of their own parents..not a coincidence.
http://www.nospank.net/

[Eurobabe]

156. Only, only, ONLY as a last resort...

(props to Wes Clark) and ONLY a quick swat, NEVER repeated hitting, spanking or whipping, that is wrong. I saved my swats for the following purposes:

a) when child X was repeatedly reminded or given time out and continued to act out of control.

b) when child X ignored mom's best warnings about doing something life threatening.

A little swat on the arse every now and then never damaged anybody's psyche, come on. My kids are 22 & 24 and have always been well behaved. You lose control of the child when they are little and you have BIG problems when they hit teen years. I had very few if any issues with my kids, no drugs, no crazy moods, etc. We are extremely close and a very loving family.

ACTIVELY LISTENING to them always, is the key to good parenting.

[Bettie]

160. We don't spank our boys

For many reasons, but there are a few that are really important to us.

Spanking a child teaches them that the way to deal with problems is to hit. How is it logical to spank a child for hitting his brother?

Spanking teaches kids that if you are bigger and stronger, it is OK to use that to solve your problems.

We're working on teaching our children to think about what they have done and find their own answer as to why it was wrong. It is a lot more work than simply swatting them, but it seems to be working so far.

We're also teaching them that violence is never an answer to problems, it just creates more problems.

I had parents who spanked (beat) at every infraction, no matter how minor. It taught me that you can't trust the people who are supposed to protect you, because they only love you as long as you are 'good'.

[youthere]

166. It always reminds me of an old cartoon I saw...

a woman smacking the crap out of her kid, and screaming *WAP!* "DON'T HIT YOUR SISTER!"

That being said, I know a lady in our town who keeps a wooden spoon in every room of her house to "spank" her kids with-because Dobson said it's okay. Problem is, now her boys pick them up and beat the snot out of each other with them. I asked her what she planned to do when the wooden spoons didn't work anymore-replace them with a 2X4?
Now personally, I have swatted my kids in the past on rare occasions. The one I remember the most was my son about age six, climbed into my husbands truck, started it, put it into gear and backed it out the driveway and into the ditch across the road. I grabbed him out of the cab and hugged the stufing out of him and then paddled his bottom but good-although there was no need, I don't know who was more scared, him or me.
I spanked my youngest daughter for sneaking out of the house and playing in the swimming pool a couple summers ago-she couldn't swim at the time, and the rule at our house is that no one is allowed in the pool without an adult watching. She's never done it again.
The times I have spanked, I could probably reason it was needed, or justified-but there was probably another way to handle it. I just did what I thought was best at the time.
I got hit, A LOT when I was a kid. There were times I probably deserved it, and I don't fault my parents. There were times I didn't deserve it, and I still resent my parents for that, that's probably what keeps my from spanking on a regular basis.
I do know that when I have spanked, it made me feel terrible-like I failed somehow.

[Bettie]

167. And that cartoon is the exact reason I don't spank!

My kids are wild men at home, but in public they behave very well, so I figure I've done my job in civilizing my two small barbarians. They are also the first kids there to give comfort when another kid gets hurt.

I admit to giving a single swat to the behind for safety issues (taking of seatbelt and opening the car door while the car was in motion is the example that pops into my mind), but it is the exception, not the rule.

We have also done the 'count to three' thing.....but I've never gotten to three yet....not sure what I'll do if I ever need to go that far!

But overall, for me, spanking isn't a good option.

I must admit also to one other reason and that is my own temper. I fear that if I spank my kids, it will escalate. I was beaten as a child and I fear becoming that parent myself. I know that it can escalate so easily and that it is probably there, lurking inside me.

Bettie.

[youthere]

192. FWIW Bettie,

I'm there with you. My three are wild at home, but they are well behaved in public-and that doesn't bother me at all. They need a place to be a little crazy and have some wild fun.
I have the same thing with the temper thing. I'm afraid if I strike my kids in anger I would go too far, and that scares the hell out of me-so you're not alone there.
I think sometimes my kids wish I did spank. Then they could just take a swat and get it "done with" instead of listening to repeated lecturing, extra chores, restriction etc. LOL!

[Bettie]

272. Hey, if they behave in public, our job is done and done well...

I'm also really glad that I'm not the only one who fears hitting in anger.

Mine would probably prefer a swat too, since we always have long talks about what they did, why it was wrong, how the other person felt...but they are pretty good about generalizing the situations and making them not happen again.

Except, of course, for picking on each other! My two boys are 17 months apart and are best friends and worst enemies depending on the day, so they will always fight with one another, I guess.

[youthere]

304. LOL...

always an adventure...this parenting thing!

[aikoaiko]

164. YES. Pos & neg reinforcement and neg punishment is preferable, but

positive punishment (e.g., spanking) is a strategy of last resort. Positive punishment is effective in the shortterm , but will backfire if not replaced coupled with the other three types of response-contingencies.

In truth, not all children are the same and not all parents are the same (temperments, parenting skills, stess level, aggression, etc.). Its the parents job to control their kids behavior. Some parents will never have to spank their kids, but then again, they might if they had different kids. Most of the time its better to use alternatives to spanking when generally teaching your kids desired behavior, but sometimes corporal punishment may be necessary.


Terms:

Positive Reinforcement: Consequating a behavior by adding a stimulus or activity that leads to increases in that behavior in the future.

Negative Reinforcement: Consequating a behavior by taking away a stimulus or activity that leads to increases in that behavior in the future.

Negative Punishment: Consequating a behavior by taking away a stimulus or activity that leads to decreases in that behavior in the future.

Positive Punishment: Consequating a behavior with a stimulus or activity that leads to decreases in that behavior in the future.

[Stuckinthebush]

169. We preferred not to teach our children that violence is OK

Especially when that violence is directed at the most vulnerable.

Amazingly, we have three wonderful daughters who don't act out and do what they are asked to do.

I have heard people say, "Well that child needs a spanking!" when observing an unruly child. Many times, it is just these children who get spanked often.

[Pithlet]

243. That is so true.

It is the kids of parents who spank who are often the unruly brats. I could usually tell who the spankers were in mommyandme Gymboree type groups. One little girl even grabbed another kid and put him across her knee to spank him. Spanking is at best an ineffective tool that usually serves only to make the parent feel better. While I wouldn't call all spanking abuse, I think parents who spank almost always have some discipline issues they need worked out. They need to be taught more effective discipline skills. But, too many won't because they've got it drummed into their heads that spanking is necessary. Luckily, that notion is dying, but there are still a few adherents. And, sometimes it's just easier to give in to the urge to spank rather than taking the effort to be more consistent.

[InvisibleTouch]

173. I'll give a very qualified "Yes"

I think there are circumstances where it's not only okay, but almost indispensible. If the kid is absolutely going nuts or doing something that endangers themselves or someone else, and nothing else works, it may be necessary to get their attention with a solid smack on the bottom. Guaranteed, they'll remember it for next time. Better to have one brief encounter that brings good behavior afterward, than to have an ongoing battle of cajoling, screaming, and tantrums.

I have to add, though, that I think the key to this is to do it very young, because after a certain age, physical punishment becomes not a means of discipline, but a violation of personal space - something that generates resentment rather than learning. I was hit well into my teens and even on occasion into adulthood, and on none of those occasions did I feel that I "deserved it" - it only served to generate rage and defiance.

[wtmusic]

186. IMO the reverse is true

Striking kids at a very young age plants an idea--that violence is an appropriate method for enforcement--that is virtually impossible to remove later.

Spanking is the lazy solution. The appropriate solution requires timeouts, and extra effort on the part of the parent, but is effective 100% of the time.

[Xenotime]

174. Children need to be taught reason not violence.

[redqueen]

176. No.

Even animal trainers know negative physical reinforcement is counterproductive.

*sigh*

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

178. spank my kid?

If somebody spanked my kid, I'd knock out his teeth.

Now- is it OK if somebody else spanked their kid? Well, I won't like it but I'm not going to tell them how to raise their kid.

[LibertyLover]

179. I don't like to spank my kid

and resort to it as rarely as possible. Unfortunately, my daughter is a very wilful 4 year old whose first reaction to being told to do something is "NO". We have spanked her a couple of times and now can usually get her to cooperate with just the threat of a spanking, thank goodness.

[johnnyrocket]

180. That's a loaded question, what kind of spanking? for what reason?

How often? Does it preclude talking and other discipline?

A little pop isn't necessarily going to traumatize someone, if you trying to get a kids attention. It should be extremely rare, so I just don't think it's as simple as yes or no.

[wtmusic]

181. Absolutely not. Ever.

Kids are little adults. Is it OK to smack adults around when they break the law? Does a cop get to deck you when you get pulled over for speeding?

I have two kids, ages 10 and 12, who have never been spanked. Once. Both are straight-A students and are thoughtful, polite, and respectful. They get timeouts when they are bad--sent to their room--which is exactly analogous to "doing time". Message: you don't play by society's rules, you get removed from society.

This idea that physical violence is OK in a role of enforcement is a bastard cousin to the reasoning that got us into Iraq.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

183. Just Stop...

You're making too much sense...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

199. while I tend to agree that spanking is a bad idea

a three or four year old is NOT a little adult. Not even close.

sP

[slackmaster]

213. Kids are NOT "little adults"!!!

They're little savages.

[MUSTANG_2004]

220. Not savages

Just untrained. And, like most people, they don't need to be hit to learn how to behave.

[slackmaster]

229. The purpose of a swat in an emergency is not to teach them how to behave

Nor is it to punish.

It's to stop them from doing something that might be fatal. The teaching can come later.

See my previous reply, #210 for details.

[mondo joe]

240. LOL! Swatting someone in an emergency stops them from doing something

fatal?

Nice theory. Doesn't describe the practice.

[slackmaster]

257. Speak for yourself

I am not impressed by your lame attempt to lump all uses of physical discipline into one "practice".

[mondo joe]

288. Your own example was not an emergency.

For all the talk of life saving and emergencies in this thread, no one has produced them yet, or shown a cause-effect relationship.

[slackmaster]

345. You were not in my shoes, and have no business making that call

So there.

[mondo joe]

350. I have no business having an opinion? I have no business expressing an idea?

You've been in GW Bush's America too long.

You described your situation. It was patently not an "emergency".

[slackmaster]

That's not what I wrote, but suit yourself

You described your situation. It was patently not an "emergency".

You are patently wrong, in my opinion. I was there and you were not.

[mondo joe]

358. Fortunately in the United States we are free to have opinions.

At least for now.

[wtmusic]

221. Yes, they are

and if you treat them like little savages, they become big savages. If you treat them like little adults, guess what?

BTW, do you have any kids of your own?

[slackmaster]

228. Stepson, now age 23

The only time I ever swatted him was to get him to stop trying to climb up on top of the guard rail at the edge of a 500-foot cliff at Waimea Canyon on the island of Kauai, in Hawaii. He was 5 years old at the time.

He lived, and grew up just fine!

[Ex Lion Tamer]

185. 3 kids and no spanking.

Ever.

And they are great, well mannered kids.

End of story.

[JuniperLea]

187. Depends on how you define “spanking”

One swift smack, with an open palm, on the fatty sitting cheek is how I’d define it. Applied when a kid does something dangerous or rude, it gets their attention and lets them know they are bad territory. Never with anything other than a flat, bare palm of the hand. If reserved for the most defiant times, it will carry more weight. If a child, from about the age of three or four, is taught to behave, is taught that their home or their room is their “free space” and they can do all the rough-housing and yelling (even stomping and complaining) they want (within reason) in that space, but are expected to behave as little gentle-folk outside the home, they will learn they are loved and are worthy and valuable citizens of pleasant society, and you won't have to spank them beyond kindergarten or the first grade.

If you don’t want to spank your kid, don’t. But if you use negotiations as a means to deter improper behavior, you are doing more harm than a swift smack on the patootie will ever do.

The best thing you can do for your child is to refuse to negotiate with them. I see so many unruly children throwing tantrums in stores! It’s disgusting! And what you will see 9 times out of 10, is a parent negotiating for good behavior! “If you behave now, I’ll get you an ice cream cone on the way home.” Or some such similar garbage. Once you give a child something just to shut them up, the smart little guys will use that tactic on you every time. They are just that smart and it will take them no time at all to “train” you.

My kids are all adults now and they realize and appreciate that they were the best-behaved children they ever knew. Now when I go shopping with them, or out to dinner, and they see unruly children, I get thanked for never letting them get away with that behavior.

[noonwitch]

188. No, but if there is no injury I don't think it's for us (Children's Services) to deal with

My parents spanked, mostly hand on butt spanking, but my dad whipped my sister with a belt once (he felt really bad afterwards and never did it again) and my mom beat my sister with a wooden spoon on a regular basis (she was one of those kids that could drive some adults absolutely crazy).

I think a parent hitting a child with his or her hand on the butt is not harmful, and there are times I totally understand a parent losing it (kid runs in the street and almost gets hit by a car). I also can understand parents of teens smacking their kids upside the head for being stupid. A good CPS worker knows that neither of these situations alone are cause to remove kids from their parents. The first is none of our business and the second should result in a family counseling referral. Too many teens get away with too much because they tell their parents they are going to call CPS on them.

[okieinpain]

190. yes, when they act up a spanking is appropriate. when my kids

were small we always received complements on how well behaved they were.

[ermoore]

193. Criminey

There sure are a lot of really self-righteous posts here.
I got whipped as a child. So did my brother and sister. If we were really bad we got whipped good with a belt and with britches pulled down (jeans really aren't bad armor). Think I heard once that if it doesn't leave a mark the next day it's ok (legally).
We didn't get spanked very often and there was always the warning "keep it up and you're gonna get a spanking," and I doubt we ever didn't deserve it, but all three of us have turned out pretty good. None of us have ever been in a fight or are the least bit violent. Neither of my parents have ever been in a fight and aren't violent and both were spanked by my grandparents (and to hear them tell it they were spanked harder and more frequently than my siblings and I).
All this "spanking only teaches violence" "science" is garbage. The simple fact is that how kids turn out has little to do with whether or not they were spanked, and a lot more to do with other factors (including genetics, whether they were disciplined or not, their friends, etc). Just as many brats and assholes come from homes that never spanked as were spanked as a child. And if you can't tell the difference between hitting a child and spanking a child then you're a dumbass.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it kinda seems like some people here are pretty close to wanting to outlaw spanking? I hope not. Cause it ain't any of the states business how I raise my (as yet non-existant) kids. Way I figure it, children are pretty much their parents' property and the state needs to butt out (obviously, I don't mean to condone child-abuse or exploitation).

On edit: fixed typo.

[goddess40]

194. It's abuse

Dr. Spock, author of the best selling child rearing book for years, said spanking was wrong.

If a kid can't understand the words he can't understand why someone he loves is hitting him - it takes higher level thinking skills to make that leap of understanding.

It also teaches the horrible lesson that might makes right - I bet there is a higher incidents of spanking among the right wingers then the lefty's.

[ermoore]

200. Well, if Mister Spock says it, it must be true . . .

"If a kid can't understand the words he can't understand why someone he loves is hitting him - it takes higher level thinking skills to make that leap of understanding."

C'mon, I don't think most of us are talking about disciplining toddlers in this way. Toddlers may get a smack on the butt (or their bottom as us toddlers used to say back in the day), but the diaper pretty much absorbs the blows. It's not the pain.
Most kids that are spanked are old enough to understand why they're getting spanked. There's no point in spanking (or any sort of punishment) if they don't know why it's happening.

I think the last time I got spanked I was in 5th grade, after that they realized that I was just acting the yelling/crying and it didn't really hurt me at all. But in between say pre-K and 5th grade there were quite a lot of spankings and I got the message on all of them.

But I like how you figure that a kid that can't understand why he (or she) is being spanked can somehow pick up something like might makes right.

[seabeyond]

209. btw dear spock confessed to being wrong in much of what he gave parents

all those years ago. and adjusted his learned opinion

i am not a spock basher. no one knows all. there was stuff of value, for sure

[goddess40]

217. Early editions said to spank if it made you fell better

but to understand you weren't helping you child - he later changed to no spanking.

[seabeyond]

223. nu uh....... buti dont have the time to get the info.... may get back

[Susang]

238. Well, I did have the time to get the info

As always, Google is your friend.

From the 1998 Newshour with Jim Lehrer entitled "Remembering Dr. Spock". Dr. Steven Parker is the co-author of "Dr. Spock's Baby & Child Care".

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june98/spock_3-16.html

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What were the main changes through the years? There were so many editions, and then your new edition has just come out. What were the main changes?

DR. STEVEN PARKER: Well, there were a lot of changes. Some things endured since 1946. It's amazing how topical and current much of what he wrote 50 years ago was. But his attitudes changed. In 1946, he felt that parents should stay--mothers should stay in the home to care for their children, and he was roundly chastized for that in the late 60's and early 70's and really came to change his ideas in that regard. I think he was a little more tolerant of spanking towards children when the book first came out but came to believe that corporal punishment and harsh discipline wasn't good for kids and perhaps was playing a role in violence that we see in our society these days. So he certainly changed in that way. And then, of course, in the new edition there are a lot of new issues facing parents, which they never had to deal with before, and so it was my pleasure and privilege to work with him in thinking about how we could help guide parents through some of the vicissitudes of the late 20th century for families.

[seabeyond]

248. i knew there was something, didnt know what... thanks

i was on the way to a pta meeting, cooking dinner and getting kids clothes for a boyscout meeting. i just cut ones hair, worked on two kids homework, talked to my father, showered one, got the other going, and listened to both kids tell me about the book they are reading before i put them to bed.... just now. and here i sit. so thnaks for "google is our friend" for me.

i had about a minute to google and there were more than one article. i found a piece that explores it a little bit differently than the ne you chose. but i totally embrace what you share. i just remember a handful of years ago hearing ont he news spock revises... so i will trust, that is what the news was talking about, though that didnt feel like what he was saying and i thought that he always encourage no spanking

[Susang]

366. I'm guessing he always was against spanking

He probably just didn't speak strongly against it until later versions of the book. :hi:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

224. Link Please

I'd like to know where Dr. Benjamin Spock retracted the advice he gave parents.

[goddess40]

216. Sorry but spanking doesn't work -

Dr. Spock isn't the only one that felt that way, most people that have studied children say that spanking isn't effective and can be counterproductive.

Our neighbors used to spank their kid, almost to the point that most people would see it as abuse, and he as a little shit when he's parents weren't around. Spanking doesn't teach kids to discipline themselves it teaches them to try not to get caught.

[seabeyond]

237. it taught me. it worked for me ad one brother, not another brother.

ergo it was an effective punishment for me , and parents rarely used it, because i was really really good. i didnt want a spanking. i think there are better ways to parent. and i use them myself. i think they take a lot more patience, time and consistancy. i am more than willing to use my choice of parenting, but i am NOT going to tell a parent they are doing wrong when i see all other signs of parenting full of love and kindness and responsibility and respect.

why? do you feel the need to dictate to a parent how they should parent?

there are things all of us parents do that another would shudder at the thought of. this was the first clue to me as a parent to keep my mouth shut and not judge. there have been people that judge me without enough information or knowing what they are talking about. how foolish they are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

204. There Also An Inverse Relationship Between Education And Corporal Punishment..

That's straight forward Sociology 101.

As education goes up the frequency of corporal punishments goes down:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=education+level+and+corporal+punishment&spell=1

[devilgrrl]

196. There are ways of disciplining a child without hitting them!

:mad:

[survivor999]

203. Some spanking may be necessary.

Especially when the kid is abusive to others.

[MrSlayer]

206. Sure. Sometimes a good whack is what's needed.

I don't think you should beat the piss out of your kids but sometimes a good whack sends a clear message that a line has been crossed, particularly after your verbal commands have been ignored. A little fear of the parent is not a bad thing.

[MissMarple]

207. No....but I think many of us understand the impulse to place a firm pat

on the well padded bottom of a two year old. Spanking doesn't teach any thing that can't be managed or taught by a firm and thoughtful adult.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

208. Ward Cleaver Never Spanked The Beave...

The fact that Beave knew he let his dad down by getting into trouble was punishment enough...

[slackmaster]

210. OK only if three conditions are met

1. The child is doing something dangerous,

2. The child has repeatedly failed to respond to verbal messages to stop the dangerous behavior, and

3. You are doing the spanking only to protect the child and/or others from harm, not in anger.

[Book Lover]

214. Unqualified never

Either a quick, soft swat on the behind or a loud smack on someone's ass, it's all the same - a blow delivered from parent to child to impose punishment and relieve the parent's frustration. And it's not right.

And before folks start in on the "Just wait until you have one of your own" song, let me say that yes I do have a child; a high-strung 4 year old. And I have never been tempted to hit my child, as bad as things can get. I let out my frustrations in a different way.

[Tyo]

215. To all pro-spankers out there

Just remember who's going to be making decisions about your assisted care and your nursing home in 50 or 60 years' time.:evilgrin:

[ulysses]

246. that's why you've got to beat compliance into them now.

;-)

[seabeyond]

250. u funny

[seabeyond]

249. my parents spanked me and they would get the best

unfortunately my mom wont be around to allow me the privilige,..... but with hubbies parents and my dad, we will be there.

and... i am not pro spanking, i am pro choice. i chose not to spank. i chose not to tell others how to parent

[slackmaster]

258. My mom spanked me on several occasions

That fact will have no effect whatsoever on my commitment to taking care of her.

[Tyo]

261. Uhmm

It really wasn't meant to be taken seriously guys. Ergo the little smiley devil.


But for the record, I think hitting your kids, which is what spanking is, is crap. Now lets move on.

[dogday]

219. Conditions at my home growing up where professional....

We talked to our father when he came home, and he decided what the punishment will be including spankings... We would line up outside the room, and wait for our turn... That scared me more than anything... Punishment was delivered by my father, who was not angry and did not punish us in anger... It was punishment and it was delivered swiftly, and that was that.

It does not bother me that I was spanked, I can only remember a few times that I did get in that much trouble. I don't think it scarred me for life.

I don't spank, only because I don't need to.. I tend to talk and ground, and remove privileges, when my child gets in trouble. I have one child, not a handful and don't have the problems other families might, so I could not speak for them, and what they need to do to discipline their kids.

[seabeyond]

252. what i find boggling, all us that got spank and we say, not scarred, love parents

wasnt in abuse, ...... and then to be ignored. told we are wrong. like i dont get to know my own expereince, i must trust someone that doesnt have a clue. also, it is a condescending jab at my parents who were great... great. i would want no toehr parent. they were perfect i their non perfection.... people telling me my parents werent great?

[mondo joe]

294. Please let me clarify - I never said or thought that a spanked child would not

love his or her parents, or think they were the best ever.

[seabeyond]

300. but they are wrong..... the parent really isnt the best ever

and the child was abused......

why is that hard for yout o understand how totally disrespectful that is to another person. as disrespectful as itting another person. one in the physical, one in the emotional. and if you think physical is so much worse, you are wrong. both do damage..... equally

[mondo joe]

302. "Best" is a matter of opinion.

I'm sorry it seems disrespectful to you.

[seabeyond]

305. you DIDNT experience it. i DID. you dont have ANY call in it

wow...mondo joe. it isnt seem disrespectful. it IS disrespectful

now.... lets walk thru this. this is so obvious and so easy. just as you see spanking so obvius and so easy. regardless something within you refuses to allow you to see how totally offensive you are being. (this is my experience, i get to be the one that tells my experience.... the same goes wih you) you deny me the right to tell my story. and you want to tell ME my story.

you dont get it. you are not able or capable to get it.

i could judge you the same as you judge others with the spanking, the very people that dont get why it is not effective as other styles of parenting. they dont get it.

it is equal in wrong.

but i know..... this is your inperfection and regardless...... you are unable for whatever reason. just as i knwo those that use spanking as a tool for punishment are unable to see other ways....... for whatever reason

none of us parent perfectly. ALL of us has a place to be criticized

[mondo joe]

310. Seabeyond, I'll simply ask you this: have you or would you ever disagree

with anyone's opinion about their own life?

I'm not denying you the right to tell your story. I don't have to agree with your opinions our conclusions for us to both have them.

I don't care if you disagree with me, and I don't know why I would -- I'd rather us both be able to disagree.

[seabeyond]

321. if i tell you at 45, really balanced in lfie, everything about me projects

that i am kicking ass in life. that my parents didnt abuse me. the spanking was no more abusive then a parent yelling, or anything else. that i was loved. that i would want no other parent. i was not scarred by spanking. i do not feel any pain, or anger toward the spanking, and you tell me i am wrong? then youa re denying me my story.

the best you can do in respecting disagreeing is saying, ..... i think spanking is wrong and wont use on my children. and respectfully i can say..... i hear ya

to the other part of your question.

you ever disagree
anyone's opinion about their own life?

not disagree. i may question. that being said, i ask a question of a person. ALWAYS i allow them to tell me their experience. never do i tell them what their experience is. that sets me up for being wrong, ..... and even if i may beleive there is really something their, i respect they do what they do for their reasons.... that just has to be allowed. i demand it for myself. if i demand it.... i have to allow it for others.

[NashVegas]

385. Do You Spank Your Own Children?

I'm curious about that.


I used to be one of the DUers who would say that I was spanked, it wasn't often, it wasn't drastic, it wasn't done for no good reason, too.

In the last year, I've done a total 180 in my attitude towards spanking, even though I would still say that spanking didn't hurt me in the long term.

[seabeyond]

388. no

[gollygee]

311. I think all he means

is that you can't be objective about your own parents. It isn't possible because most people love their parents and are by definition subjective due to that love, and because most people have only ever had one set of parents and therefore have no basis for comparison.

That doesn't mean your parents were bad, just that it's impossible for you to be objective. It's impossible for any of us to be objective about our parents.

[mondo joe]

315. What I mean is simply that people can disagree. My best friends and I are

quite willing to disagree with one another, even about our own opinions about our own experience.

It's not disrespectful provided it is presented as opinion, and not stated as matter of fact.

[seabeyond]

334. it is what do with it. i think this is so important in growth.

to understand, know, respect, embrace my mothers imperfection.... is the very healing of those imperfection. i tell my boys, i am not perfect. and that is a very good thing. you see how to embrace your own non perfection. you see how to love self even though you arent perfect. you know you do not have to obtain perfection to be loved.

this is one of the hugest gift we can give to people we love. not only accept our own imperfection, but love the other person, including their imperfection.

[seabeyond]

332. if it is what i feel, it is what it is. this is my point with this whole issues

and other issues the nanny perspective rings up. yesss.... i agree with your post. hence my point. trust... that is a given. my mom though spanked and so get a bad mark ..... also always allowed me to be an individual, taught me respect through example, was honest beyond anyone i knew. she was the one person that i could trust to ALways HAVE MY BEST INTEREST. her spirituality and essense as a person was lite, literally. why would i even make her less, and who dare. she helped to mold this me...and she taught e how to give to my boys. spanking is simply irrelevent to who she was, who i was and what our relationship was.

this is my point.

without knowing all of who she is... to judge her on such a very small thing, isnt smart...

i chose not to do that. i dont want to willingly be foolish

because foolish it is, to make my mom less.... and wrong and disrespectful

[Kazak]

225. I'll defer to Carl Sagan on this one...

From Cosmos:

The neuropsychologist James W. Prescott has per formed a startling cross-cultural statistical analysis of 400 preindustrial societies and found that cultures that lavish physical affection on infants tend to be disinclined to violence. Even societies without notable fondling of infants develop nonviolent adults, provided sexual activity in adolescents is not repressed. Prescott believes that cultures with a predisposition for violence are composed of individuals who have been deprived - during at least one of two critical stages in life, infancy and adolescence- of the pleasures of the body. Where physical affection is encouraged, theft, organized religion and invidious displays of wealth are inconspicuous; where infants are physically punished, there tends to be slavery, frequent killing, torturing and mutilation of enemies, a devotion to the inferiority of women, and a belief in one or more supernatural beings who intervene in daily life.

[MUSTANG_2004]

236. Wait a second

While I loved the show Cosmos, this sounds weird. Is he saying that adolescents should be having sex? It sounds like it when he says
"provided sexual activity in adolescents is not repressed."

[Kazak]

312. Well, shouldn't they?

I teach O.W.L. (Our Whole Lives, a human sexuality curriculum developed jointly by the Unitarian Universalist Association and the United Church of Christ) to young teens. We're encouraged to advise youth that it is healthier to delay high risk sexual behaviors (sexual intercourse, etc...) beyond their early adolescents, but that there is a host of low risk sexual behaviors that they may use to safely express their undeniable and completely normal sexuality.

[mondo joe]

342. He says it should not be REPRESSED.

And having sex isn't the only sexual activity.

[Xithras]

226. Spanking is so 1800's...

Modern parents use stun guns :evilgrin:

FWIW, I've spanked my kids a few times. It's something that I've only done to discourage extremely poor or dangerous behavior...like when my 5 year old son decided that it was ENTERTAINING to ride his bike in front of cars to make the drivers lock up their brakes, or when my then 6 year old daughter slammed her four year old brothers head into the brick fireplace because he "annoyed" her (causing damage that required 12 stitches to repair). The object of spanking, simply put, is to instill fear into a child. Fear of pain, fear of parents, fear of punishment. There are very few situations where instilling fear into your children is justified, but some do exist. A child hurting others, or a child who is placing their own life at risk, happens to be one of them.

The problem, of course, is that some parents overdo it. There's a world of difference between a spanking and a beating. "Swats" are rarely justifiable because punishment minor enough to only justify a swat to the tushie can often be handled other ways. OTOH, parents tend to get emotionally caught up in events serious enough to justify a spanking, and emotionally charged people aren't always the most level headed. My wife and I personally enforce a 30 minute rule...spankings cannot be administered within 30 minutes of whatever it was that justified the spanking in the first place. We enforce it on each other, and it gives us a chance to calm down before punishing our children.

[focusfan]

227. i think there's a wrong and right way to do things

i know I was abused growing up I took a many a whipping from
my parents with switches and belts.i think if you talk to your
children and tell them there doing wrong.then if they keep on
then maybe swat them on there butts or if there older then
maybe they should be grounded or something.

[bigwillq]

231. To a certain degree

I was hit on the hands or on the butt when I was younger and I grew up just fine.

I think for disciplinary reasons, sometimes you have to give a little spank to show who's in charge.

But it's entirely up to the parent and since I have no kids, I will leave it at that.

If I had kids, I think I would do little spankings but nothing major.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

266. The Challenge Is What Do You Do When They Don't Respond To "Little Spankings"

Do you spank them harder?

It's akin to the problem of trying to use measured military force.

It's a path best not taken...

[Raine]

233. NO

My parents NEVER EVER spanked me or my brother and we turned out perfectly fine, never in any kind of trouble at all plus having much love and respect for my parents.:hug: My mother had an abusive mother and a father who let it go on so she was determined to take the opposite approach, thank God.:thumbsup:

[survivor999]

242. Chimpy was never spanked.

See what we got.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

268. Au Contraire

http://www.williamstewart.org/2006/politics/liberal-jim-lewis-says-bushs-problems-stem-from-his-childhood/


I hope that makes you feel better...

[paganlib]

253. No!!!!!

[951-Riverside]

254. If its "O K" to spank children its "O K" for men to smack women

I bet you lowlife female child abusers are choking on that one.

Assholes.

[seabeyond]

255. with that thinking, it is ok if you ground a child, take away his toys

lecture a child, have him write sentences, do extra chores, sit in the corner, then it is ok for a man to do it to a woman too. is that what you really want to tell us?

[951-Riverside]

259. That has nothing to do with child abuse or domestic violence seaboyond.

[seabeyond]

270. spanking a child has nothing to do with domestic violence

[mondo joe]

276. I think it's the same mechanism.

[seabeyond]

278. i know you do. regardless of the many adults that come on here and

tell you their story of love and respect of parent that used it as a tool. and none of us saw, felt, think it is abuse. and you refuse to acknowledge that.... insisting that it is abuse, in essense telling me my parents abused me. and you are wrong. i know you feel it is the same mechanism, and you dont use spanking as a tool for punishment with your children. i respect that. i dont either. that is my choice. and i wont have anyone tell me i must use it. i refuse. as i would expect and stand up for the person that uses it and says it is not an abuse. or not the same mechanism. i do not know why it is so hard for a person on a specific agenda to see there might be other facts, that is seen differently from others eyes, that possibly we may not be able to understand because we see differently.

[mondo joe]

279. Indeed. There are many stories of love, as there are from men

who hit their wives as well.

We do indeed see it differently.

[seabeyond]

282. right here, stay on agenda and tell me my parents behavior to me

is equal to the abused wife. this is truly the sick of who the liberal party is and so very offensive. i cannot express clear enough mondo, that now, .... this is no longer about spanking but your own deficit.

like you tons. i know this is your issue. i will step away cause you truly offend.... without knowing shit about me my parents al of who we are.... out of ignorance

[mondo joe]

284. I don't think it's acceptable to hit another person except in self defense.

I'm sorry that upsets you, because I like you very much.

[seabeyond]

289. i dont think it is acceptable for people to judge others and expect

them to accept my way of thinking, especially while uninformed. i really dont. but..... i understand you are not me. this is the unique of who we all are. there is a higher in all things, even this. and you live as you do from your own uniqueness. i will have the grace to trust you to do your own journey. i will also demand the right to do mine

[mondo joe]

292. Seabeyond, I don't expect you to accept anything I have to say.

I don't.

[seabeyond]

293. when i tell you my parents did not abuse me

and you in essense tell me i am wrong in my very own, personal experience..... that is nothing short of arrogant. and in and of itself disrespectful.

as you lecture me on respect of another human being

and i say this ...... bah hahahahah.... respectfully

[mondo joe]

296. We have a difference of opinion.

Don't we?

Is that shocking or disrespectful?

[seabeyond]

308. it is beyond difference of opinion. it is you being disrespectful

telling me my expereince is not what i say. because do not want to allow that a child can have a parent spank them and it not be abuse.

that is not a difference of opinion. and to ignore all the people n the board that say they are not abused, and you refuse that information, is disrespectful..... in my opinion. and since i am experiencing it, i get to say. i am not telling you your experience is not valid. you are telling me my experience is not valid. that is wrong.

[mondo joe]

313. To the contrary - you can say your experience is whatever you like.

I can disagree.

We can all do that.

I don't have the power to make your opinion invalid. But I do have the right to disagree, as do you.

I'm not at all troubled by any disagreement you might have about my opinions of my experience.

[laundry_queen]

263. Who says if you don't spank then you must punish in another fashion?

We try to avoid punishment as much as possible. Just like punishment would humiliate a spouse, it does that also to children. We prefer them to learn the consequences of their actions, with guidance of course. We also discuss about feelings and ask for THEIR input to help them improve their behavior. We make sure to teach them to see the other side of every issue ie: empathy. I understand the difference between an adult relationship and a parent/child relationship and therefore, sometimes, children need strong boundaries, and that can include punishment. However it is rarely needed. And as I said up thread - my children are exceptionally well behaved. I can also attest that they are normal kids who definitely did not come into the world with that temperament.
And as a kid who was spanked, and yet had great parents, I can honestly say the spanking had a huge influence on how I view my parents and my childhood - it definitely was not benign. I treat my children how I wish my parents would have treated me.

[gollygee]

307. I try to avoid punishment whenever possible too

If my daughter hurts someone by throwing a toy at them, then I have to take away the toy to protect the other person. I'm sure she interprets that as punishment, but even in that case punishment isn't my intention.

[mondo joe]

275. You're stuck in a punishment mentality.

It's not hit OR take away toys OR sit in a corner.

Instead consider "I won't talk with you until you're ready to be civil" which I find works with adults or children.

Or consider just talking.

[seabeyond]

286. i am not "stuck" anywhere. and i am not here for you to teach me how to

be a parent. you dont have a clue what i do as a parent. and in ignorance (lack of info) a person often comes off foolish

[mondo joe]

291. I'm offering an opinion, which as you know you are welcome to disagree with.

And it's only based on what you put forth here, which was how to punish.

[seabeyond]

295. you are wrong. i put forth, i was not abused. you say..... yes you were

now that is not taking what i offer you. that is ignoring. and it is not merely an opinion,...... it is an insistanence that i accept you version of my life.

you do understand, and i have made it clear.... i do not spank my kids. so it is not like i am trying to validate my own behavior.

[mondo joe]

298. Actually, I didn't say you were abused, though I do think it's

the same mechanism.

Are you now saying we can't disagree?

Are you telling me you don't disagree with anyone about their own life?

[seabeyond]

314. i am telling you i do not have the audacity to tell a person

what their experience is in life. who am i to know. that is not my place. the religious would like to do that to us i tell them know, ... god is i heart, he knows..... i cannot, and how dare i decide i can. i cannot. the same with the liberal that would like to ride over the indiivdual and tell them who they are, instead of allowing the indiivdual to decide for themself

now, you happen to be talking to a person that is very clear in experience in life, and i am insightful in my own experience, and pretty enlightened wth my development over my long journey.

it is silliness for you to in anyway think.... you know my experience better than i. i assure you..... you decide who i am, you will be wrong at every turn

i know this

so i know i cannot tell you who you are

or anyone else for that matter.

and i live that way. you wont ever see me telling another person who they are, i can only say who i am

[mondo joe]

317. Really? I would sincerely feel my life was lesser if people couldn't

challenge me or disagree with my own opinions about it.

The people I love and respect most have disagreed with me and I with them about our experiences.

Sometimes it's turned my thinking around, sometimes it's confirmed it.

It never upset me that they might disagree.

[seabeyond]

339. you refuse to get it. as much as a person that feels spanking is right

and refuse to get it. you refuse.

that is why you will alwyas have people that chose spanking. they wll refuse to get it. it is not characteristically or thru experience a possiblity to get it

[mondo joe]

340. No, I refuse to change this opinion. As do others who disagree.

That's fine. Two mutually exclusive opinions can be held by different people.

[seabeyond]

344. what opinion do you refuse to change?

[mondo joe]

348. That hitting another person, except in self defense or defense of another,

is not acceptable. Also, that hitting others outside those limits in general has the same mechanism at it's core.

But also, I refuse to change my opinion that we can both have contradictory opinions without disrespecting one another.

[seabeyond]

351. i am not asking you to change your opnion on spanking. further

i agree with you on the issue. my whole conversation thru out the thread was not about you changing opinion on spanking. it was for understanding.... and that is what you refuse. i personally work hard towards understanding because that leads to healing. healing can be done no other way. and is always my goal

[mondo joe]

359. Again, Seabeyond, I mean no disrespect to you, and I'm sorry

that it has appeared so.

I don't know what more understanding can be provided. I understand we have different opinions, and I understand you've felt disrespected by me - for which I apologize.

[seabeyond]

363. i dont take things personally. what you give, i do not have to receive

so though you may have been disrespectful, i do not have to accept it. i dont. ergo, nothing to apologize for. when i
speak of understanding it has to do with the spanking issue. not me. but then.... lol lol i understand
you do not understand. lol

so

pals to you

no hard feelings, no feelers hurt. just two gals talking.... about my favorite subject, children...

[mondo joe]

365. Uh, just one thing...

...I'm not a gal.

:-)

[seabeyond]

371. well f*

lol lol lol
bah hahahahahahaou

why... did i think you were a mom all this time. i think because of your passion in child rearing maybe, i have heard in other posts, a passion normally not exihibited by male? something along the way surprised me in a post of yours and i had always thought you a guy and i said surprise, woman. well that is cool. didnt talk to you as a guy through out the posts, talked to you like a gal.

a lot of people think i am a guy

thanks for the heads up.... bah hahahahah

that is funny. i am in giggle. i am outta here. was fun

[Hosnon]

290. Good luck proving that causal relationship. Why does the former

necessitate the latter?

[flying_monkeys]

262. Spanking a child is when the Grown Up should have taken a Time Out.

No, one doesn't ever need to spank their kids UNLESS the grown ups are beyond realizing a TO (for themselves) is in order....


Hitting is not a calm, measured response to stimuli....

[Limelight]

264. The bottom line on corporal punishment is...

There are always consequences in this world for not following the rules and some times those consequence can have real and physically painful consequences. That's not to say that there aren't ever good reasons for breaking the rules if they are unjust (Note Dr. Martin Luther King who's memorial in D.C. had it's official ground breaking today), but before they make the decision to disobey they should know the risks.

I look at it like this. My kids (that I don't have just yet) can learn they shouldn't steal or take things that don't belong to them from me, the guy that loves and cares about them the most, when I wear them out for doing so when they're young and impressionable... or they can learn it a few years down the road when they get arrested and possibly get they heads cracked open with a night stick by a cop that doesn't' give 2 shits about them. They can learn from me to speak respectfully to others and to say please and thank you from me as children... or they can learn it when they're older out in the streets and pop off to the wrong cat who cares nothing about their well being and stomps them out or perhaps even puts a bullet in them.

I do not believe in corporal punishment as the first option. I believe it's the last alternative, but when they decide to keep pushing to find out how far they can go (and they will, that's what kids do) I believe it's important not to just write it off the possibility of wearing that ass out until they begin to understand they will respect your word. That's important to establish early on so, even as they get older and you have to move away from spanking, it's in their heads that your word is the end of the story under your roof which will help you guide them with words and advice as they grow into adults.

Frankly I believe that the reason we have the level of violence and crime in this society is that we have a generation of parents more concerned about their child's buddy than their parent. I don't give a crap if my kid likes me, I'm there to be a support and a confidant, but if need be I'm there to have them hate my guts. Just as long as they learn how to be good people who are DRIVEN to do the right thing in life. I truly believe if you teach your children to do the right thing that eventually they'll come around and when they grow up and mature they'll begin to understand why you were hard on them and unyielding in some cases about not tolerating bad behavior.

Bottom line, I'd rather my child receive physical repudiation from me, the one who helped give him life thus would never do anything to truly hurt or injure them, than let them grow up thinking the worst that could happen to them is a tongue lashing or a time out. There are people out there that would happily injure take your child's life under the right circumstance, even a circumstance as simple as running off at the mouth. The fact that there can be physically painful consequences to breaking rules and being rude and disrespectful is just a fact of life. The question is who'd you rather your child learn it from?

You or the rest of the world?

[donheld]

265. I have to ask, Was * spanked as a child?

If he was then I'm against it. If he was not, then I'm for it. :evilgrin:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

267. He Was

http://www.williamstewart.org/2006/politics/liberal-jim-lewis-says-bushs-problems-stem-from-his-childhood/


I don't accept the analogy but it should give the devotees of spankings pause and I don't understand your point.

Spanking teaches children that violence is a useful method for conflict resolution.

[donheld]

271. I was being silly

:silly:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

377. Thank You

.

[pinstikfartherin]

269. Sometimes

I am in the crowd that agrees that it should only be done when either nothing else works or the child runs out in the street, etc.

I was spanked as a child, but very few times. When I did receive a spank, it was because I was being stubborn as hell and nothing else worked. My parents always tried talking with me first, then came time out, then came a spankin'. It was corner time one day and I was being a little brat. Wouldn't apologize for what I'd done, wouldn't do anything I was told, wouldn't do anything. I stayed in that corner for so long I fell asleep. Luckily I was tired when I woke up so I did not put up anymore fight. One time I got a big ole' pop on my butt though. My mother was trying to get me to eat my cabbage. I kept spitting it out and spitting it out and smarting off and such. Finally I got mad and spit it at her. She took popped me one time right then and there and I ate my cabbage. I'll never forget it, but I do not blame her for it either. None of the spankings I got effected me. I respected my mother more and behaved. A mix of time outs and a few spankings turned me into a really good kid once I learned my mother's angry face. I was well behaved from about the age 8 on (until I hit my teenage years of course, but then it was on to pure grounding). I do not relate punishment to violence. I do not need to be smacked to learn anything. They never really hurt me. It was just the fact that they resorted to that punishment that got into my head and made me finally calm down. I think a few small ones are OK from about age 2 to 7, give or take a few depending on how the child matures.

[NashVegas]

274. I Used to Think It Was Just Fine - After All, It Never Hurt Me ..

Now, finally, with much better hindsight than ever before, I realize the reasons why I was spanked was less because of my own misbehavior and more because my behavior forced my mother - who was the adminstrator - to feel emotions she didn't know how to deal with and express properly. One was fear.

I think I was spanked a small handful of times as a kid, maybe 5, max. The one I remember most of all came from a time when I wandered halfway across town (it was a small town, but still ...) at the age of 6. Freaked her out. When I finally came home two hours later, instead of showing me how terrified she'd been, she showed me her anger.

[Hosnon]

283. Yes. I was spanked once growing. It was definintely appropriate.

I ran away (was hiding in our outside trash can) while my poor grandmother was babysitting. My parents had to be called back from their night out and half the neighborhood was called to search for me. Both my grandmother and mom were sobbing uncontrollably.

I NEVER contemplated something like that again. It was not a "loose cannon" thing from my Dad. It was very calm: simply a severe punishment.

Spanking can be appropriate and I will use it if needed.

[mainegreen]

287. Spank, occasionally yes (though I wont do it). Beat? Hell no.

Unfortunately people tend to mix the two up.

[savemefromdumbya]

309. If you have a good discipline system then there is no need to spank

many parents should take courses on how to rear children. I think 60% would fail.

use of words and various time out systems are more beneficial to a child than a spanking. spanking is only a release for the angry parent.

[Zero Division]

327. I've seen no evidence to suggest that spanking is beneficial...

Just because a spanked child turns out to be a generally law-abiding, regularly employed adult, there's no reason to believe this constitutes evidence that no long-term harm was done and that there was no other effective way to discipline the child. I've seen spanking fail completely in my own family. And beware of the "rare spanking" with older children. Sometimes it simply creates a long-lasting resentment and an irrational fear of humiliation. It's literally a traumatic experience for some children.

I understand, though, why so many become incredibly defensive when it comes to this topic. It's extremely common parental behavior in our society, and people are especially defensive when being judged for common behavior. Combine that with the fact that people who spank often do genuinely love their children and strive to do the best they can for them--not to mention their feelings for their own parents who probably spanked them, as well--and you have a recipe for an extremely defensive reaction to the suggestion that spanking is harmful to children. The commonality of the behavior also leads to the perception that those who criticize it are "elitist snobs", which, of course, is not a germane response to the question of the effectiveness of spanking as a form of punishment for children.

And I'd also say that the "spanking a very young child in an emergency" situation should probably be a related sub-topic when discussing the general behavior of spanking as punishment for children.

[Tyo]

333. If physical punishment is okay at 6, why not at 16?

Seems like as a general rule the spankings decrease as the kid gets older, although not necessarily because the kid in question has become better behaved. But if physical punishment is so effective why stop? Could it be because it's safe to hit a child who is too small to put up any effective resistance while a 16-year-old could conceivably fight back?

I'm in the no spanking camp. Most people don't train puppies by hitting them, why do we think it's an acceptable approach for children?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

382. For The Same Reason Schools Stop Paddling In Jr. Or Sr. High School.

The principal or the person administering the paddling doesn't want to get his ass beat...

[Tyo]

386. Yup, don't want to hit anyone who might hit back n/t

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

337. Not only YES, but it should be MANDATORY.

One of the great failures of our society occurred when parents decided en masse to wimp out on the punishment of their children. It was a GO sign for the little monsters to do whatever they desired without fear of being called on it in any real way.

IMO it's one of the main reasons the latest generation is so freaking whacked out.

[stanwyck]

369. Talk about wimping out

spanking is the refuge of lazy parents. You just hit the kid. And teach the child "might makes right". I'm bigger and stronger; I make the rules. Not, I've had more time on the planet and I know more. But, I can hurt you.
That's your message.
Spanking is bad parenting. But, hey, it takes less time than actual acting like a parent. And you're back on the sofa watching TV in no time.

[mondo joe]

370. I also have to wonder what exactly is so wrong with the current

generation relative to those that preceded it.

[stanwyck]

375. Good question

I have to fight every day becoming the cranky old man (women in my case) on the porch yelling "you kids get off of my lawn!"
It happens as we get older. And we forget this generation is no better -- or worse -- than we were.
Usually the cranky old men on the porch are posting on the rightwing sites. But we get a few of our own -- especially when we get the inevitable spanking thread. Brings out all the old "back in my day...." cranks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

384. Elaborate...Please....

"IMO it's one of the main reasons the latest generation is so freaking whacked out"

[slestak]

338. I spank my kid

I don't like it. I kinda use it like a "reset button". More of an attention getter than physical punishment.

I understand why people are against it, but I'm not going to come down on anyone for doing it.

[bugbones]

341. Is it OK? No. Do even the best child therapists do it? Yes.

It's never "OK" to resort to "violence," but I've seen the mildest, gentlest, kindest, most patient parents—some of them are even child therapists—swat their kids when nothing else will get their attention.

That said, it never should be a Dobson-esque beating (hard enough to draw "sincere tears").

[DemocratSinceBirth]

403. Do You Mean "Child Therapists" Like Dr. Dobson?

eom

[bugbones]

404. I didn't know that was on his impressive vita

No, I was referring to people I know who are child therapists and fallible humans. They don't recommend it and feel badly when they've done it.

In contrast, Dobson is a child abuser and a child abuse advocate. He made such an outstanding impression on his son that young Ryan D. published such eminent treatises as "Go Ahead and Hate Because Some Things Are Just Stupid."

[meldroc]

352. People have different interpretations of spanking.

When I was a kid, a "spank" consisted of a light slap on the butt, absolutely below injury threshold, about as hard as a hearty back slap among friends. It wasn't physical pain that conveyed the message, because there wasn't much of that, but the body language of it is a serious rebuke. I'm not sure I'd be willing to do that to my kids (though I don't have kids yet, so I can't say for sure.)

Some others think a spanking consists of literally bringing the kid behind the woodshed, pulling down his pants, taking your belt, and delivering 20 lashes. That IS abuse. I will NEVER do that to a child.

As for me, just from my experiences with my niece and nephews, I've never spanked them, though on one occasion, when my nephew was throwing snowballs after repeatedly being asked to stop, and he finally hit me in the eye with one, I grabbed him, looked him straight in the eye, and yelled at him "YOU DO NOT THROW SNOWBALLS AT PEOPLE LIKE THAT!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!!!" Amazingly, even though my eye was stinging like hell, I was able to keep myself from cussing. I'm don't have my own kids, and I'm not used to raising my voice like that, but that stopped his misbehavior right there. Probably even more effectively than spanking him.

My sister's a very good parent, and she's also taken college classes on early childhood development and works in child care. She does not resort to spanking. It's just a matter of setting down the rules in a fair, but firm manner, and enforcing them consistently. Even with difficult children, when done right, good discipline means kids will know where the boundaries are, and will never need anything remotely harsh.

[Burma Jones]

353. Well, we don't spank, and our children do not speak disrespectfully to us

Mostly because my Wife and I, and I mean always, speak with kindness, courtesy and respect to each other and the Children. We always ask nicely the first two or three times, then we get stern with them. When the kids have tested us with some disrespectful language, we have punished them quickly by taking things away from them. They also take Karate three times a week and the class is highly structured and emphasizes treating others as you would wish to be treated. So, how did we control their behavior when they were toddlers? We used time outs. As they got older, we used a combination of time outs and taking toys away. We made a list of rules that the entire family had to follow and do not provide examples of behaviors that we would find offensive in our children. My wife is a Yoga Instructor and has had a couple years of voice training for actors. I am a singer and trumpet player, we both know how to use our voices extremely effectively. When I yell, it can stop someone in their tracks, it is very loud yet still controlled.......When my wife gets angry, it is truly frightening since it is so uncharacteristic of her. So, instead of spanking, we use our voices to get their attention physically.

Are my kids perfect? No.

We have actually used the phrase, "You're acting like President Bush" when they're snarky, grumpy or selfish. That changes their behavior quickly. I don't think they've ever heard anyone in either of our families speak kindly of the Chimp and they know he's very disrespected by everyone whose opinions matter to them.

We also have a rule that if you see something advertised on TV, you won't get it. That helps. The times they watch Nick, which is basically for Sponge Bob only, they mute the TV when the commercials come on. Television Commercials are a rich source of awful examples for behavior.

[seabeyond]

356. "You're acting like President Bush"... ah ha ha. take out president

and i have done the same. you are acting like a republican, you are acting like bush. disciplining with humor and effective. yes. lol

but something you say i would like to point out. a yell at the kids is as destructive and painful as a spank. per both my children. before us non spankers, yet yellers..... get too holier than thou

now i have talked this out with my children and tell them, i ask 1, 2, 3, 4, times and then yell. you do it. you condition me to skip the ask 2, 3, 4, times and go directly to yell after asking one time.

this makes sense to them. we each get to own our part, wink.

another btw: some would say this is poor parenting dissing pres this way and a group of people to a negative teaching our children a poor example

[Burma Jones]

361. I don't know......

If you yell insults, hurtful things, maybe that's bad, I don't. I usually just speak their name very loudly (yell) their name and a quick statement of what they're doing that's wrong. It's an attention getter and it's in control.

For those that think our dissing the Pres is bad parenting.....I would stack my kids against theirs any day.

I don't want to be holier than thou, it's just using the tools we have.

[seabeyond]

368. that is the thing with this bad parenting

issue. why i dont play it. what you and i may do with dissing pres works for us. i say that too, stack my kids against yours... lol lol. lets hope to god we never resort to that. but it is funny that you and i actually use the exact phrasing on things. that is funny

well.... i have never and do not believe in being mean, hurting another, making one less so when i talk yelling it is not.... using words of insult. not who i am. but still.... my children have shared with me how painful yell is. i can see it on their faces. we talk about it. i was never a yeller until i had kids. surprised me. but.... i am a passionate person, and i do get angry. i know those that dont. i am not one. it isnt grand or great, and i work on it at times.... but it is me.

they forgive me

and as i say, they get to own their part. it is not all me.

but ask your kids what yelling feels like to them. i dont know how old yours are. mine have been expressive.

and with that... i do not yell all the time. i tell them i am patient patient patient a zillion times. that isnt seen. only the yell that comes is identified. so i started making the kids aware of all the patient moments until they cry uncle. lol

[Tyo]

355. A slight clarification of my views

Spanking is acceptable if it involves consenting adults.

[blwpyrtv]

373. problem with spanking

Six years ago, a Canadian school principal was busted for possessing child pornography. Specifically, he collected pictures of children being spanked. Turns out he'd also spanked a number of students during his career.

In 2002, the FBI broke up a nationwide child-spanking pornography ring. A few of its members even made films using their own kids, who could be heard tearfully pleading their innocence.

Now, it's not really news that spanking can take on sexual overtones, as anyone who's seen "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" can tell you. If you doubt it, just type "spanking" into a search engine and see what kind of results you get. And since there are people out there who are sexually drawn to children, it figures that some would enjoy spanking them.

Tragically for many victims, though, society has mostly failed to recognize the potential for sexual abuse in the practice of spanking children or even young adults. Perpetrators often deflect suspicion simply by playing the discipline card.

It's high time we woke up to this problem. You can learn more at www.nospank.net/101.htm and www.nopaddle.com.

[LaraMN]

376. In my own parental life- it feels like a cop-out.

I've found other tactics to be effective with my kids, and because spanking them *feels* inherently wrong to me, I try to trust my gut.

When I sent my first child off to school, my foremost concern was not how well he could read, or how much math he knew (though those things were significant,) but that he consistently practiced respectful, appropriate behavior, and followed the rules. He's still only eight, but I've never had a problem with his behavior in school (and this was a kid who initially threw MASSIVE, hysterical, lengthy tantrums, as a toddler).

For me, spanking my kids is not a good option for discipline.

[slackmaster]

390. Many people lack parental skills

Spanking is usually an act of desperation or frustation by inexperienced or immature parents. It often works, i.e. achieves the short-term goal of stopping some inappropriate behavior. I believe there are almost always better ways to discipline and teach your children.

[JacksonWest]

383. no

[bamacrat]

392. I dont have kids but I got spanked as one.

I have friend who didnt and they are douche bags. Ok their not really my friends I guess.

[Evoman]

400. Yes, but only if we can use a cane!

Kidding...but I understand your trying to make a point with this thread and your caning thread.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

401. I Just Have A Problem With Hitting People Who Can't Hit You Back

Why do parents abandon spanking as the child ages even when the offending behavior continues?

And even after other methods of discipline (verbal, grounding, withholding of privileges) fail?


Could it be that parents are loathe to hit a child who just might him or her back?

Violence begets violence...