Is Caning Appropriate?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

In Singapore you can be "caned" for petty offenses.

And if you think caning is appropriate do you think it should become a feature of the American judicial system.

[hlthe2b]

1. I don't know... are politicians eligible?

MAYBE if we start there...:evilgrin:

[sam sarrha]

2. that is a slippery slope, having been fired numerous times in the South for being a Buddhist

[Crunchy Frog]

3. Only for high crimes and misdemeaners

committed by public officials.

[TheMadMonk]

4. Yes.

If the crime is such that there was a palpable chance that another could have been harmed or killed by the criminal's actions. Drunk driving would definitely be on my list of eligible crimes.

And it should come on top of any other penalty. Basically to get the message across:
"Actions such as yours invariably lead to pain and suffering."

[Ravenseye]

14. So you're for the use of torture as well?

caning, waterboarding, attaching electrodes to genitals...hey whatever works right?

[TheMadMonk]

16. Not at all, and I'm not sure how you read that into what I said.

Perhaps I should have reserved it for repeat offenders, but I don't have much of a soft spot for anyone who puts personal convenience ahead of the lives of others.

[madmusic]

47. palpable chance?

palpable.

Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin palpabilis, from Latin palpare to stroke, caress -- more at FEEL
1 : capable of being touched or felt : TANGIBLE
2 : easily perceptible : NOTICEABLE <a palpable difference>
3 : easily perceptible by the mind

Ironic that the Etymology is from stroke, caress when we're talking about canning, but, be that as it may, I missed "palpable" in the Bill of Rights. Which one is that? No, I don't think a "palpable chance" is a high enough standard, and even if it was, canning would be ruled unconstitutional. I know a lot of people hate the Bill of Rights, but, well, tough.

Maybe anyone who would sacrifice the Bill of Rights to inflict a punishment should suffer the punishment. That sounds a lot better.

[Bluerthanblue]

60. "actions such as yours invariably lead to...

pain and suffering" you said- If that is the message you want to get across, then how can you expect to inflict intentional, pre-meditated pain and suffering on another human being and not be guilty of keeping the sick, tormented concept that "it's only wrong if others do it" alive and kicking in our violent, vengeful, tit for tat world?

Instead of 'RE=ACTING" to what people do that we as a society cannot tolerate, how about some PRO ACTIVE measures???

Ponder that parable about Mayor LaGuardia being a night court Judge who heard the case of the man who was arrested for stealing bread- and ends up judging the spectators in the courtroom and himself for allowing a society where people are forced to have to steal to eat-
If we spent a FRACTION of the money we spend on preventing the causes of crime as we do on re-acting to committed crimes, we'd have a much different world, I believe.

The only message getting across these days is if you are one of the privlidged, you can pretty much screw anyone and anything you like, and walk away- If you are among the 'pawns' of society, you'd best not be caught wiping your nose on your sleeve, cause you'll get locked up for at least 20yrs for that-

Fie on our 'criminal justice' system- it is one of the most telling examples of what a failure this society called "The Republic of America" really is.

Progress should include more than acumulation of wealth and things- it should mean less suffering, want and injustice.

[we can do it]

5. For Dummy, Scummy & Rummy? - I'd Say Yes

[yurbud]

6. white collar criminals? since their lawyer will get them club fed otherwise...

[DemoTex]

7. Caning is cruel, unusual, and hideously brutal. (GRAPHIC WARNING)

I did research on judicial caning for a short story based on the Michael Fay case (Singapore 1994). Caning as punishment is barbaric. However, caning as an interrogation method would probably be acceptable by the likes of Cheney or Rummy.



Edited to substitute link for graphic.

Link to graphics:
http://images.google.com/images?q=singapore+caning&hl=en&lr=&sa=G&sourceid=tipimg

[readmoreoften]

39. Anyone who is PRO caning should be forced to click on those links.

And, by the way, for those of you who are so afraid of ass-rape, in that position, who's to say you're not going to get ass-raped to boot when the warden isn't looking?

[Ksec]

62. Ouch. Those injuries are really bad.

I dont think I could condone this stuff.

[wuushew]

8. I have only known one person from Singapore

and from what he told me it sounded pretty fucked up.

Death sentences for possession of marijuana, caning for splitting on the sidewalk and mandatory military conscription with training under mostly live fire exercises?!


It seems to be that because the country is so rich they are either not interested in or are too arrogant to inquire into the possibility of increasing individual or collective happiness in their society.


Is a society that is not introspective healthy?

[AJ9000]

33. Singapore is a police-state whose population has been subjugated.

US citizens who think we ought to do things the Singapore way need to move there.

Here we have the Bill of Rights protecting us (as long as it lasts,) and I don't think that's the reason we have so much crime in the US.

[Ravenseye]

9. i'm shocked nearly 20% would find it appropriate

It's barbaric and is literally torture. Hell, lets just waterboard people who were caught drunk driving but do it with booze instead. Sure it'll feel like they're drowning in bourbon, but they'll live and it'll teach them a lesson. On top of that other punishements are more effective than corporal punishment, which often creates resentment of the authority figure and increased negative behavior.

There's a reason why the majority of modern industrialized countries have banned corporal punishments.

I'm just shocked so many here would be supportive of it.

[DemoTex]

11. It is, indeed, torture.

And it is, indeed, barbaric. And I, too, am shocked that even one DUer would find caning appropriate.

[Pithlet]

24. There is nothing too shocking

that someone wouldn't support it, especially on the internet, and DU is no exception. I think there was a time that would have shocked me, but no more. I think people are more hesitant to admit to supporting something so fscked up as caning in person, so you don't hear it so much in every day life. But it's easier to say things like "I support caning!" on the internet, because you don't have to face the justifiably shocked expression on the face of the person you're admitting it to. I know. Caning. It's ludicrous. But, I knew there would be people supporting it. :scared:

[Totally Committed]

10. Who are those that find this appropriate?

It's barbaric, and I feel, a form of torture.

Are the ones who find this appropriate also okay with torture?

TC

[Mountainman]

12. I'm wondering why we even have a thread like this?

Sometimes I get really worried about this site. I find that I don't even want to read a certain percentage of posts lately. Maybe it is an influx of new members because of the elections. I guess when the dust settles we will be back to our more reasoned posts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. The Responses To My "Spanking" Thread Prompted Me

IMHO, Caning is spanking's bastard cousin. I wouldn't shy away from a physical confrontation to defend myself , friends, family, or nation but it's fucked up to hit someone who can't hit you back or beat a defenseless person.

[Iris]

21. and doubly f-ck'd up for the gov't. to do it.

[laylah]

19. So locking people up

like animals is NOT a form of torture? I am a pretty peaceful, gentle person...I don't kill spiders and I am anti-death penalty; however, if a caning, appropriately done as a punishment to fit the crime, yes, I support it.

Flame away :hide:

Jenn

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. We Lock People Up To Protect Ourselves And Helpfully Rehabilitate Some Of Them

.

[Nye Bevan]

13. No. And I wish someone would have told that to Sister Mary John in the early 1970s.

"Sisters of Mercy" my ass.

[zanne]

15. I can't believe you're asking the question.

This IS 2006 and this is DU, right?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. See Post Seventeen...

eom

[Iris]

27. or post 18

[Beaverhausen]

32. See the "child spanking" thread

and you will REALLY wonder where you are. Sheesh!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I'm Flummoxed...

eom

[JacksonWest]

22. Yes, if both parties consent.

However, outside of a consensual sexual relationship, no.

[kiahzero]

23. You win the thread

I thought about posting that.

[aikoaiko]

25. Its appropriate in a representative style gov and applied fairly.

If the people will it and its not applied in a discriminatory fashion, I can live with it.

[Iris]

26. God help me if I ever live in a country where people "will" something like this

Human beings are better than that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. How About Stocks,Pillories, Whipping Posts, And Ducking Stools?

eom

[aikoaiko]

43. Sure, if its the people's will and its applied fairly.

I wouldnt like to live in a society where any of those things happen, but a democracy has its ugly parts and choosing its punishments is one of those ugly parts.

I'm sure this won't surprise you, but I'm for the death penalty if it is the will of the people and its applied fairly.

[AJ9000]

44. It's unconstitutional (8th) and it wouldn't be fairly applied. nm

[aikoaiko]

49. The questions is about the approriateness of caning.

Yes, caning is considered cruel and unusual by US standards, but others have different opinions on corporal punishment. In Singapore its generally considered neither cruel or unusual.

But even in the US, whether or not it violates the 8th is a matter of opinion -- not one of fact.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. We're A Democratic Republic Or A Constitutional Democracy.

Nazi Germany was a plebiscitary democracy where a bare majority could vote to take away the rights of others. The Constitution guarantees us certain rights that can't be denied by plebiscite.

[aikoaiko]

50. Sure, but I was answering the question of when caning might be ok.

If the people (all people) have a say in their government (can vote) and it is their will that caning happen, and it is generally applied fairly, then yes, I think you can say it is appropriate.

[Pithlet]

57. So, you don't see it as a human rights issue?

Because that is why I would never support it, anywhere or anytime. This isn't even an issue of what degree it does or doesn't have public support. Some things are simply wrong, because all human beings have basic rights, no matter where they're born or where they live. One of those rights is to not be tortured.

[aikoaiko]

67. Yes, I think it a human rights issue, but it is the humans who need to

...determine that right. Perhaps the people of singapore thinks its more cruel to keep someone in prison for years than 1 - 24 whacks on the ass. In prison they can't take care of their families. In prison, lots of bad things far worse than 1 - 24 whacks on the ass happen.

Tortue... thats a matter of opinion. Watching your family loose their home while you get three hots and cot in prison, only being able to see your daughters face through a plexi-glass window, or learning that your son won't visit you in prison can be torture too.

I'm not a proponent of caning, but I don't think its the greatest punitive evil either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. What If A Majority Thinks Gays Should Be Stoned

Do you see the slippery slope you are on...

The Constituntion is there to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority...

[aikoaiko]

69. Youre switching the topic from a punishment to the crime.

Part of my criterion is that it be fairly applied. Discriminating based on sexuality is not really a fair application. Caning is happening in Singapore for crimes and not because of who a person is. Gay, straight, jew christian, muslim, etc. you break the law and caning might be the punishment.

[SidDithers]

28. The only caning allowed should be..

for parents to discipline their children.

:sarcasm:

Sid

[Evoman]

29. Not me...but what if it was a choice?

You could do 6 months in jail or get one Cane across the ass?

I would probably pick the caning...less chance of being raped in jail.

(Disclaimer: I find caning barbaric and in no way support it, but neither do I support jailing people in dangerous institutions, where they can be physically or sexually assaulted).

[StraightDope]

34. We seem to think alike...

See my post below.

:toast:

[Evoman]

37. Anal rape sucks.

:toast:

[StraightDope]

38. Yes. Yes it does.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. How Did We Do Go From Caning To Anal Rape...

We incarcerate violent criminals to protect ourselves and it the responsibility of the jailer to provide for the safety of those he's in charge of...

[StraightDope]

54. In the real world, many pisoners are anally raped.

Hypothetically, the president is suppose to obey the law too, but in the real world, he does whatever the fuck he wants.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. If That's The Benchmark Even Violent Criminals Shouldn't Be Imprisoned

eom

[StraightDope]

30. I'd rather be caned than do prison time.

At least caning doesn't expose you to the constant threat of anal rape...

[readmoreoften]

42. This is better? I'll take 6 months in the hooch, thanks.

[StraightDope]

51. I can see that you've never been incarcerated before.

Yes, I'd take that over an extended stay in a jail or prison. 100% sure.

[porphyrian]

31. What consenting adults do on their own time is no business of mine. - n/t

[meisje]

41. Sex offenders should be publicly flogged!

[StraightDope]

56. Adulterers too...

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[EdwardM]

46. Hell No.

Singapore is one of the worst countries in the world. I would never step one foot in that backwards country. Do we really want to become Singapore? I do not want to give government officials the ability to assault it citizens. It's enough that we still got the death penalty.

[treestar]

61. That is a good and separate point

What of the government officials who would carry it out? Even if caning could be shown to cut down on crime, wouldn't it be erased by having people amongst us in our society with that job? Sheesh. What kind of person would you be to take that job.

Even an executioneer only flips a switch.

This is fourteenth century stuff.

[TheBaldyMan]

48. Is the death penalty appropriate?

I don't think so, I don't think corporal punishment works either. Sounds more like some sexually-repressed FReeper S&M fantasy come true.

Do you mean to bring public flogging in the Town Square ?

A nonsense post on a nonsense subject.

[slackmaster]

52. In our cultural context, caning is cruel and unusual

Singapore's society is just a little different.

[MamaBear]

53. No. Singapore's society is just a little barbaric.

I'll deal with the graffiti, thanks. Calling a mob -- even an elite smug mob -- that tortures for minor offenses is an offense to the word society.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Aren't There Universal Norms Of Behavior?

eom

[Bluerthanblue]

58. Violence is not the answer- why not whip people with the lash-? or

torture them to exact revenge?
The only 'caning' I endorse or respect is done on chairs-
I bear the scars of "capitol punishment" during childhood (which was abuse, not just a 'little whoopin')- as well as domestic abuse in adulthood- they are ugly, public reminders of the past- they have never gone away, and while make-up can cover the glaring ones, it doesn't make them go away.
Worse than the visible ones, are those no one can see.

Violence in the name of 'reform'- or 'rehabilitation' or 'discipline'- is absolutely in-excusable, and un-acceptable in the society I hope to live within.

We tell our children to "use your words"- and pontificate upon 'responsibilities'- and 'concequences' but the base, animalistic rage that only physical violence satisfies, is far too acceptable in this world- and so it continues.

No, caning is not an acceptable form of discourgaging 'petty' offenses.

"This hurts me more than it hurts you"- "I TOLD YOU NOT TO HIT"- while beating the shit out of someone is as stupid in action as it sounds in words- and counterproductive as well.

Would you stand by as someone caned an animal for barking or pooping in the house?-

[Ksec]

63. I got "caned" once

I got whipped by an english teacher in my sophomore year of high school.
He made us bend over and grab a chair while he proceeded to wail this inch thick board on my ass , four times. Ive never felt such pain. I mean he really wailed on me and this other guy.

I got spanked by my Dad and Mom but never anything this severe. I could never condone that kinda punishment on anyone. I think that teacher was some kinda freak .

[I_Make_Mistakes]

64. I remember when that American was caned and they said that

the cane rips the skin to the bone. If anyone would think that was acceptable, I guess torture would be acceptable also.

[Gwerlain]

66. No.

Cruel and unusual punishment.

[GoneOffShore]

68. Well, only if the caner is

wearing black leather and seamed stockings.