Question: do you want impeachment, or...

[WilliamPitt]

Do you want impeachment, or do you want:

* embryonic stem-cell research

* a raised minimum wage

* serious reform of the lobbying industry

* tax cuts diverted from super-rich to the middle class

* cuts in college costs and education loan interest rates

* the ability to control appointments to the Supreme Court

* control of the federal budget

* stop the warrantless wiretapping

* repairs to the prescription drug program

* cut subsidies to big oil

* keep Social Security from becoming privatized

I ask because these are the things Pelosi and the new majority want to do. They will be hard enough to do on their own, but if we ramp up an impeachment push, I fear they will become impossible. If they are passed in congress, they will be vetoed, and an impeachment push will guarantee that no Republicans will side with us for an override.

Governing is about making choices. I fear this is the choice before us. Food for thought.

EDIT: I should add that investigations are and absolutely should be part of the laundry list of Democratic actions. If that leads to impeachment, so be it. This is more about going into January with impeachment as the hood ornament.

[Elidor]

1. Cake or death?

I'll have cake, please.

Oh, wait...I thought this was the Lounge.

[5X]

2. Justice. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

4. And that means...?

One-word answers are not answers.

Is impeachment the only course to justice? Does the passage of these items above count as justice?

[5X]

8. I want justice, however we have to get there.

If that means impeachment, so be it.
The Hague would be preferable.

[blm]

64. As Robert Parry points out, ALL good can be quickly undone by the next manifestation

of BushInc.

Just as almost every good act by Clinton was undone in a matter of a few years by Bush2 because Clinton let Bush1's crimes go unexamined when there were so many outstanding matters left to be dealt with when he took office in 1993.

That worked out well for the 9-11 families, didn't it?

Besides - investigations should go on - it won't reach impeachment. Bush will resign because he's a fraud and KNOWS he is a fraud, and won't be able to handle the revelations about his criminal acts - he's always been protected by the wall of lies they built - without it he's too vulnerable and fragile a character.

[electropop]

83. Guns AND Butter, please

Let Conyers do his job. Don't make a big advertisement out of it, but gradually the evidence will emerge and totally discredit the GOP as a filthy turd in the eyes of nearly all Americans. What happens next, I can't predict.

[blm]

84. They don't even have to go down impeachment road - Bush has WAY less spine than Nixon

and Bush will NOT be able to withstand impeachment emotionally - he's had a lifetime of being bailed out and havng his crimes covered up - he can't handle that barrage that would ensue. Clinton, for all his faults, still had enough strength of character to withstand a bullshit impeachment.

[truedelphi]

92. You've stated the case as well as anyone could

Impeach

otherwise it will ALL be undone by these monsters.

[jaxx]

3. As much as I'd like to see gw kicked to the curb,

I'd rather see this country get back on track and do things that are good for we the people.

[havocmom]

5. This ain't Burger King and we can't have it all 'our way' and in 60 seconds

Thanks Will.

It IS about making choices and sometimes you have to hold off on some items on your wish list.

The DEMS can show America they DO have a plan or two to make better what is broken or they can prove RW pundits right. That's the choice.

In two years, not everything gets fixed the way we ultimately want it. Choices are: what are the priorities?

People are dying NOW. People are not getting meds they need NOW.

The neocons took DECADES to get their ducks in line and do the psy-ops on their own and the masses to make it possible for them to do the damage they did in the past six years. We can't undo it all in a couple months or even a couple years.

Triage is necessary. The bushco junta is bleeding to death right now. Let them wait in the corner and work on saving the living.

[lazyriver]

6. I would like all the things you listed

and a whole lot more but isn't there a way we could get the investigative process working without using the the other "I" word just yet? Perhaps make a strong and swift push on the above legislation while setting up investigations that could lead to impeachment during the last year of Bush's second term? Maybe we don't need to impeach at all but instead compile enough evidence to try the whole Bush Cabal for a long list of crimes AFTER his pitiful administration is out of power.

Just wonderin'...

[WilliamPitt]

9. The investigations are going to happen

This is more about the anger over the "off the table" statement.

[Benhurst]

27. Of course impeachment is "off the table" for the timebeing.

But it will be back on it as soon as overwhelming evidence of crimes have been committed by Bush and the Junta is revealed by long-overdue congressional hearings.

Conyers' statement is nothing more nor less than a reflection of his rising to his new responsibilities as chairman.

[Nevernose]

120. exACTly

They're not syaing "never," they're saying "give us a few months."

Of course, it took years to collect enough "evidence" to impeach Clinton. Maybe we could collect enough evidence to indict him after he's president?

[lazyriver]

32. Appropriate choice of word..."anger".

It is anger that drives one part of me to want to see this whole administration wearing orange jump suits and leg irons while picking up road kill for the rest of their natural lives. Some days that anger rises to the top and all I want is punishment for these criminals. I guess you could call it a thirst for revenge. Other days I look at it differently and believe justice would be better served by trying to make them lap dogs of a progressive agenda. If they try to stop that agenda, wave the people's mandate that was the 2006 election in their faces and demonize them for standing in the way of the will of the people.

I guess if I knew for certain we could make the progress we all know we need, my desire for justice in the criminal sense would wane a bit. However, I remain very skeptical about the bipartisanship support that will be proffered by this administration and what is left of its rubber stamp congress. I bet Bush has already placed an order for a few extra cases of veto pens.

[Irreverend IX]

54. "this whole administration wearing orange jump suits"

Impeachment won't make that happen. It'll just remove them from office. If you want Bush and company brought up on criminal charges, it'll have to wait until they're out of office, and then there'll be plenty of opportunity to make that happen.

[tavalon]

95. People are getting a bit wiggy about that, aren't they ?

Even I was pissed off the first day. I got over it. As long as they are willing to hear what we have to say I think we can let them play this out politically. Impeachment is, after all, a political gig. I'm actually much more interested in having the whole damn mess examined in hearings and having daily doses of what these bastards have done in America's name plastered in every hometown newspaper in America. I want Ma and Pa Midwestern to know exactly how awful these people are. I want America's messiah complex around the chimp to be burned to a crisp. Then, when we are done, I want the lot of them shipped off to the Hague. I probably won't get the last part but I am relishing the first part.

[omega minimo]

98. "Impeachment is, after all, a political gig."

This kind of flippant disregard and/or ignorance of the process is part of the perception problem in this debate.


And after all you said, what is your answer to Will's question?

[tavalon]

103. Read my other post on this topic for my answer to Will

I don't like to repeat myself on these threads. I didn't mean to diminish the importance of impeachment. I am, in fact, in the impeach them all now gang (though I am getting better about letting the investigations come before the impeachment). What I meant is that I believe it is even more important that they be criminally tried and that each and every misdeed be placed out in front of the American people which is what the investigations will begin to do.

[omega minimo]

105. You've made the point that we're all actually in agreement

We call for investigations
Investigations reveal impeachable (or not) offenses
Impeachment (or not) follows



Since a lot of independent investigation has already been done, it is easy to call for (inevitable) impeachment rather than investigations...... two ends of the same animal.

[ClassWarrior]

7. What about investigations to hold the misadministration** accountable?

Investigations that could lead to IMPEACHMENT? Do we want to hold Bush/Cheney** accountable or let them get away with all they've done?

NGU.

[WilliamPitt]

12. See edit to OP

[ClassWarrior]

19. I agree that it shouldn't be elected Dems' "hood ornament"...

...but at the same time, we need to keep it on the table as their surrogates.

I just spotted this:

"...it’s a necessity of the course set by the voters to end one-party rule and find out what the government is actually up to."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/13/opinion/13mon2.html?_r=3&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

NGU.

[robinlynne]

62. That's exactly what we "non-impeachment this week" people are suggesting.

Impeachment will happen once the american people are aware of the facts. Let's get the facts out. And fix what is so broken!

[4morewars]

10. So we give them a pass ?

again ? Most of these fuckers were involved in Iran-Contra, (baker, negroponte, poppy, etc) and now they are not only free men, but they are running the country ! AGAIN

They need to be dangling from the end of a rope, not running a country, not starting wars, not looting OUR treasury.

[WilliamPitt]

13. See edit to OP

[4morewars]

28. OK, that makes sense.

I will do ALL that I can to see that we don't have to fight these facsist assholes again in my lifetime.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
-------------------------------Margaret Mead

[Lone_Star_Dem]

11. Can I get all of those things with a side of subpoenas?

And supersize it, please. :)

If investigations can take place that expose the levels of this administrations corruption, I feel the rest will follow and I'll be happy.

Otherwise, we really are just reliving the 80's and letting them go to be corrupt again another day.

[WilliamPitt]

16. See edit to OP

[Lone_Star_Dem]

30. I think we're on the same page then.

It's not in the better interest of the Democrats to be screaming impeachment right out of the starting gates. It would only give them a reason to beat us up in the press and turn some of our new voters away in 2008. Not to mention the fact that there is so much other important work to be done.

If we do this correctly we can win even more voters to us by 2008, and punish the criminals that have been running America into the ground for the past 6 years. Win-Win.

[Generic Other]

14. We need to do both: roll back GOP legislation and prosecute them for crimes

I fear we'll do neither.

[marions ghost]

88. that's my fear too

that neither will be done--neither rolling back of GOP legislation nor prosecution for crimes...

I don't see this as an either/or situation necessarily. These times are not so predictable. We have to go full steam ahead in every direction.

I worry that if the Dems don't seek to prosecute these criminals we will be seen as not only short-sighted, but complicit. Impeachment would be only a part of the process of holding them accountable. I don't think we should be acting like it's a dirty word. That's what they want us to do--to take it out of consideration.

[Q]

15. We can have both...

...it's just a matter of timing.

Start with investigations and go from there...

Remember this: it's part of the JOB of our representatives to provide oversight and 'protect and defend' the Constitution.

[madokie]

17. Thats all fine and good but I think we need to let investigations go forth

and let them lead wherever they go. We have lived without all these so I think we can wait another two years. We need to regain our moral high ground and we do that by holding the perpetrators of this travesty accountable. In the eyes of the world we need to investigate and let it determine where we go, period. Remember we didn't ask for this corrupt administration and we must do what we must do.

[YOY]

18. Excellent Point Mr. Pitt. I agree.

As much as the act of impeachment sounds like the sexier option, we must remember that we are truly pushing for the advancement of progressive ideas and not some form of partisan retribution for the idiocy that was the Clinton impeachment. That progressive agenda would be weighed down by partisan politics and could damage us and even make us worse than our counterparts, who have truly fallen to the wayside in standing for what they CLAIM that they really believe.

Although it would send a strong message to RW America and the world in general to let them know that America does not stand for this kind of outright imperialistic and downright authoritarian behavior that the WH has committed, it might be seen as the obscenely partisan level of our counterparts and not as the party aiming for the greatest good for the greatest number.

I consider myself in this to make the country a better place for us and the world in general and every last one of your points is a stepping stone for that. (Although I would also add the transition of the Military industrial complex toward more societally positive developments in a Swords to Plowshares move to benefit infrastructure and create new industries and energy sources...I really would like to see this on someone else's agenda other than mine.)

Reminds me of something my Dem. mother said to me when I was little (I'm afraid that I don't know her source): "Little people talk about other people, good people talk about places and times, Great people talk about ideas."

[marions ghost]

89. so you think

we should let THEIR abuse of power (Clinton impeachment) control OUR use of the procedure for legitimate reasons? Isn't it more important to draw a clear line in the sand, instead of worrying about what the bullies might do to us for exercising our constitutional rights?

:thumbsdown:

[YOY]

91. It's more of a moral highground thing and being the better people

I wouldn't turndown an impeachment, but leading with positive actions and not negative attacks. Bush II is the definition of what impeachment merits: A COMPLETE AND TOTAL ABUSE OF POWER. None-the-less, we need not to be like the slimy pubs with a finger constantly on the finger. A real question is: Would there really be 2/3rds majority in Congress for this? Would the pubs really betray their great white dope?

Then again...the dipshits would try and take credit for anything a democratic Congress does under their brilliant leader's gracious rule. I'll grant you that.

They'll hate us no matter what we do.

[omega minimo]

99. Thank you for your (usual) clarity

The people blase about the process don't seem to understand the process or value its integrity and the need to protect it. Seems to be more a matter of "convenience" or strategery...............

[H2O Man]

Nope.

First, in response to your edit, I don't think there are any pro-impeachment DUers who are not fully aware that the process begins with investigations.

Second, it is not true that there are only two choices in life.

[omega minimo]

101. We are also aware that independent investigations have occurred

including Mr. Conyers' as well as public forums on impeachment, and the offenses are, by definition, impeachable.


Second, false choices serve no one.

[puebloknot]

128. Cutting to the chase!

You said in two short paragraphs what I've been trying to get out with a multitude of paragraphs.

Where'd you learn how to do that? :)

[GeorgeGist]

20. Political expediency...

is such a bitch. The dry cleaning bill for soiling one's tutu must be enormous not to mention all the false choices required.

Don't be surprised if the Republicans seize the Impeachment issue.

[Marr]

21. I want all that, and I want investigations as well.

If impeachment is a popular option after all the dirty laundry has been placed on the table, then I'll be for it.

Ah- I just saw your edit. I understand your meaning a little more clearly now. I'm definitely against going into January with impeachment on the agenda.

[stop the bleeding]

22. keep the eye on the prize

we need to push the much needed legislation listed in the the OP, all the while conducting investigations on certain matters.

If said investigations show that crimes we committed then we should follow the next logical step(s) as laid out in our Constitution and law(s).

I feel it is possible to achieve both the legislation that we want and the "I" word even if it means getting the "I" down the road through a longer process.


one last caveat to consider:

If the DEMS do not pass good legislation/something makes a positive change then they will be out in 2008, but the flip side of that is - if they do a good job like passing the items listed in the OP then there is a good chance that they will keep seats in Congress and perhaps pick up more. Then they will have more authority/support to proceed with a criminal process/"I" based on the information they will uncover from 2 years worth of investigations.

as I stated above I believe it is possible to both - chess players realize this sometimes you have to play several moves before getting to your goal(s).

[tk2kewl]

23. I certainly want all of the above...

I believe that impeachment, or some other form of justice for the criminals in bushCo cabal, is required to prevent another near-term attempt at an executive power grab. We let raygun and his goons off the hook and it didn't take long for the wingers to try to run a secret government.

I don't know how we ensure that this doesn't happen again without some serious consequences for the president. Impeachment is the main tool that the Constitution provides for checking this kind of executive power grab. Hell, I think his statement that the Constitution is "just a goddamn piece of paper" should be enough to have him thrown out of office.

I liked you post of a couple of days ago. Given that about 16 Republican Senators will need to vote for impeachment, we need to lay the groundwork through investigations. And we need to simultaneously pass meaningful legislation, such as outlined in the OP. That is how we build the public outcry for impeachment without it seeming like a vendetta.

[lapfog_1]

24. Without one you will not get the others...

Shrubya has nothin left... so you'd think he would roll over and go away... the adults are back in charge. But that's NOT my little bush. He feels he is so right about something, that's it. He is the decider.

Out of your list, the only one that he might go for is the minimum wage, but I bet there will be a price to pay, some tax for his pals.


BTW, you left off the list outright repeals of

Patriot Act I
Patriot Act II
Military Commissions Act.
No Child Left Behind.
Clear Skies.

I'm sure I'm missing some important ones.

and I want us to pass a new Voting mechanism act. Paper ballots, hand counted. Repeal HAVA.


Let's undo the damage first.

[Ganja Ninja]

25. I want it all and I want it now!

Seriously though we should take our time on impeachment. Dubya is the official face of the GOP until such time as he's impeached or his term runs out. That works in our favor. Why rush things? Take our time, investigate, gage public opinion and when the time's right in 2008 do what's best in the long run for the party and the country whatever that may be.

[AntiFascist]

117. One of the MORE intelligent discussions over in GD:Politics suggested...

using investigations as a form of torture forcing the president to act responsibly. I suggest slowly dripping the investigatory revelations, making him squirm and sign every piece of legislation at every turn, then ultimately forcing him out of office as the call for impeachment reaches a climax.

[Independent_Liberal]

26. I want a lot of things...

...but first things first, we need to hold this administration accountable. I recently posted an entry in my journal about the things that need investigated. You can check it out here: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Independent_Liberal/8

I'd say investigate, hold hearings, subpoena, question people under oath and then impeach.

[seemslikeadream]

29. HOOD ORNAMENT!!!!!

Hood ornament, it's not about a hood ornament it is about


Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

Langston Hughes

[earth mom]

38. Perfectly stated! Thank you!

Why some DUers don't get it simply amazes me.

[robertpaulsen]

87. If only I could nominate an individual post on this thread, it would be yours.

Thanks for putting things in perspective, seemslikeadream!

:hi: :yourock:

[LaraMN]

31. We can be alot more effective if we do what's necessary to take the Presidency in '08.

I want to see investigations, and impeachment if those investigations yield information warranting such, but I don't want our larger agenda to be waylaid by the vindictiveness that is a natural result of what we've all endured, the last six years. I want REAL change, with LONG-TERM implications. If all that the Dems have on their plate to offer the American public in the run-up to '08 is the perception of priorities rooted in partisan vengeance, we can't expect their support. I want to see Bush rot in jail, don't doubt that for a minute, but not at the cost of the power we've finally gained. I definitely won't rule out impeachment, and I think we MUST investigate things- but I won't set the whole of my focus on it, either. We have to be smart about how we proceed.

[porphyrian]

33. Sorry, that's a false binary.

NO ONE is suggesting we try to impeach before we meet the requirements for impeachment. However, as the government is notoriously slow in getting around to enacting the will of the people, the time to call for impeachment IS NOW. Of course they'll focus on getting the things on your list done, and of course they'll do as much investigation as necessary. Really, why are you trying to further confuse the issue?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Silence and inaction is aquiescence to the crimes committed.

Besides, if pushed, even politicians can do more than one thing at a time.

[kentuck]

35. I think Bush will veto most of the above anyway...

Democrats should exercise oversight and let the chips fall where they may.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

36. Hmmm

maybe in a back room somewhere somebody says, "Hey, George! We won't push to impeach if you don't VETO our legislation?!" Personally I'd choose Will's list over impeachment.

[kentuck]

43. I doubt there will be an impeachment but...

that is a nice threat to hold over his head. :)

[yellowdogmi]

78. If not veto then ignore with one of his signing statements.

Investigate then impeach.

[Jackpine Radical]

37. What I really want to see is a sea-change in America.

Yes, all the specific issues you list. But even more, I want a profound change in the American soul. A change that goes deeper than politics, a change that reaches into the bedrock assumptions upon which we anchor our debates. I want there to be a re-ordering of values that puts things like compassion and love, reflected in a respect for human life, a respect for the dignity of others, and an understanding that there are values higher than self-aggrandizement and greed. I want a return to the principles of the commons, a sense of community, a commitment to loving one's neighbor and carrying their interests alongside your own in your heart.

Impeachment? Not if I could get a society that commits to forgiveness and rehabilitation as a general approach to those who offend against it.

[The Count]

39. REAL ELECTIONS. And also Justice. And the rest of the stuff.

How comes everyone is forgetting about stolen elections.

[fhqwhgads]

40. [applause]

i think you're spot-on, will. sure i want justice (and not just a little measure of revenge). but i'd much prefer to actually get our agenda pushed through, and i also want the public to think of us in a positive light come 2008 and in the future. we should investigate, and i'm confident we will. but if we start talking impeachment right now, we may as well start preparing ourselves now for president two-face mccain.

[LSK]

41. GD is still arguing over impeachment?

I guess I didnt miss much this weekend.

[elocs]

42. There are too many here who obsess about Impeachment Now 24/7.

"Impeachment if off the table" and "impeachment" are not mutually exclusive notions. Just because the Dems do not start impeachment hearings in the first 5 minutes does not mean they will not happen. Do you want this done fast, or do you want it done right? Because if this is done right out of the box many Americans will look at it as payback and revenge and will never believe that it is a noble call for justice. Plus, the Republicans will be laughing at what a pathetic and weak Speaker that Pelosi is if Democrats such as Conyers and Waxman start impeachment hearings on their own after she has said it is off the table. I would rather have impeachment done right and in the right time, putting intense pressure on Republican senators so there is even a chance of convictions. Or will those who scream for impeachment now be happy with impeachment only? I won't be, but I also know that even with impeachment that Bush will probably walk. That's reality and reality is a harsh mistress.

[magellan]

44. My stance on this has shifted

I think investigations along with the rest of the laundry list is fine. There's no need to call for impeachment as long as thorough investigations are being done; it's virtually the same thing. And as Americans learn more of what's actually gone on, it's likely public support for impeachment will grow.

Actually I think impeachment is the least of Bush** and Cheney's worries.

[in_cog_ni_to]

45. Multi-Tasking....we can do all of it. Hearings can be held on Monday,

Friday and Saturday instead of Congress taking those days off. If they work more than 98 days a year, we can get ALL the legislation passed PLUS hold investigative hearings. Democrats are much smarter than repukes and can do several things at the same time. They can even walk and chew gum at the same time! If they hold hearings, impeachment will follow.

The Democrats shouldn't be SAYING they will impeach. That's just fodder for the MSM talking heads. Hold hearings and let THAT lead them to where we all know it will.....

[Kip Humphrey]

46. If the Dems do nothing else, repair our election systems! Then, impeach Bush - we can't let

these people get away with stealing our country. Otherwise, they will try again.

[mmonk]

47. I was unaware they were mutually exclusive.

[dkofos]

48. I want it ALL!! But I can wait until 2008 for IMPEACHMENT.

[mmonk]

73. Why 2008?

It will definitely be seen as politically inspired then.

[Fovea]

49. I'd like a Democratic Party

that can walk and chew gum, please.
And fewer false dichotomies woudn't hurt, either.

[Canuckistanian]

65. Because apparently, Democrats can't multi-task

I'm not suggesting a hell-bent effort to impeach, but let the invesigations and subpoenas take their course and impeachment will unfold naturally. That's the role for Conyers, Rangel and Feingold.

In the meantime, Pelosi can tackle the big issues, the ones that actually matter to real life.

[Fovea]

74. And shhh, here's a secret...

As Waxman,Conyers,Feingold do their work and start to close in, I envision an increasingly tractable GOP. Having had a gun pointed at my head before, I can say with certainty that while my cooperation lacked whole heartedness, it lacked nothing in responsiveness.

[Canuckistanian]

122. I'm sorry, your cooperation?

And what "gun was pointed at your head"? Are you a member of Congress?

[texpatriot2004]

50. I don't think it's an "either /or" thing. If investigations lead to

impeachment then so be it and I want investigations.

[novalib]

51. BOTH /AND

I want ALL of the things you listed.

AND I ALSO WANT JUSTICE!!!!!

Why does this has to be portrayed as an "either/or" thing??!!!!

WHY CAN IT NOT BE PORTRAYED AS A "BOTH/AND" DEAL??

Surely, bringing JUSTICE to the people who LIED and who MURDERED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN IRAQ is JUST AS IMPORTANT AS ANYTHING YOU LISTED!!!!

WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF GAINING POWER IF YOU FORGET TO BRING ABOUT JUSTICE???!!!

[crispini]

61. It's politics.

What part of "If we start impeachment procedings in January, the Republicans will NOT play ball with us for the next two years" do you not understand?

I see no problem with proceeding with our agenda AND also starting investigations, which is exactly what Waxman will do. They just won't be called "impeachment hearings."

[novalib]

63. Play Ball??!! WTF??!!!

So, I am supposed to SACRIFICE JUSTICE simply because the Rethugs won't play ball with us if we start impeachment procedings in January??

WTF???!!!!

Here's a news flash for you.

No, here's TWO news flashes for you:

1. The RETHUGS have REFUSED to play ball with us for the past 12 YEARS!!! (Remember???)

2. WE ARE NOW THE MAJORITY!!!!

[crispini]

70. We don't have enough of a majority in the Senate ...

to get things done without them. Anything that will get passed has to get through the Senate. Anything else that gets passed has to be signed by President Bush. I would like to see Pelosi's agenda proceed, and let the investigations continue in the background.

We have to have hearings and investigations first, no matter what happens. Waxman will take care of that. Why is what the hearings and investigations are CALLED so important? We can clearly label the hearings "Impeachment Investigations" and paint a big ol' target on our Democratic backs, or we can start investigations quietly and see what comes out.

You give me the distinct impression you're about to bust a vein over this. NEWSFLASH: The Democratic process just doesn't work all that fast. Are you new to politics, that you haven't noticed that?

[Cleita]

52. I want it down the line.

All those things you listed should, of course, have a priority, but there should be impeachment to preserve our Constitution. After all impeachment is about a president violating his oath of office by committing acts against the Constitution. If he isn't brought up on charges for this, it sends the message to all future Presidents that they don't have to honor the basis of our democracy. Then our Republic will cease to exist.

[texpatriot2004]

53. If investigations warrent impeachment then so be it, see below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2666396#2666528

[bbgrunt]

55. obviously we should keep our powder dry..........

even though it is so dry now it will probably self-combust.

[radfringe]

56. impeach or not to impeach

We have the congress - but do we have enough Congress to make an impeachement and conviction stick?

I know we have a list of bush offenses that has been pointed to as being impeachable offenses. However, as far as the general public is concerned, bush's crime is just plain incompetence and is this enough to warrant going through an impeachment process?

If impeachment is an option (on or under the table) - the first thing that needs to be done is INVESTIGATIONS, HEARINGS, and more INVESTIGATIONS.

The second thing is getting that information out to the public, to create enough of an outrage that reps in the house running for re-election in '08 won't dare to vote against impeachment, and senators (like-wise up for re-election) will not dare to vote against conviction.

[Beam Me Up]

57. I think it is time to either push or kill you, Will.

The Bush Administration is a threat to our national security. Those aren't my words, they're Al Gore's words but I take them very seriously and have for years. Leaving them in office is a threat to our national security. What is it about this you do not understand? There need to be investigations and if these investigations warrant, as we believe they will, the people will cry out for impeachment. This is not an either/or matter.

[Bandit]

58. What do you want jobs or the environment?

:shrug: false choices are usually offered from the other side... Why is it so hard to understand Democrats can chew gum and walk at the same time...

[smoogatz]

59. Obvious false choice.

In fact, without a veto-proof majority, Dems won't get any of that stuff UNLESS impeachment is on the table. Not your best, Mr. Pitt.

[WilliamPitt]

68. Perhaps

but that's the really fuckin awesome part about the time I spend here. A random thought here or there, posted in GD, will sometimes get a "Not your best" or "I'm disappointed" or "You can do better" kind of comment.

Just out of curiosity, how many other people have gotten a "Not your best" from you lately? ;)

[smoogatz]

75. Fair question.

Nobody, lately. Of course, what's implied in "not your best" is that your best is pretty fucking good. In the main I enjoy your thoughtful work here on DU.

[WilliamPitt]

76. Thanks

Nice of you to say. I hope I didn't come off snarky in that reply. It is pretty funny to me.

[smoogatz]

77. I've got no problem with snark.

It's the great thing about DU--almost nothing is a stone cold given. It's how we learn from each other, I guess.

[toymachines]

60. There is a major lack of responsibility

and justice being done at high levels of government. It is the congress' job to hold accountable, through impeachment, those that deserve it. It is their JOB. Getting re-elected is not their job. They are the only ones who can do this. That to do list is something that we all want. But as far as I am concerned, oversight and accountabilty need to be taken seriously once again. So, maybe lets not focus on impeachment, but for godsake, the people deserve justice to be served.

[Senator]

66. Soul or Riches ?!?

Yeah, that's about where we are.

--

[redqueen]

67. I don't see why impeachment is separated from investigations, really.

Doesn't one follow from the other, if necessary? I think so, yes.

Get the work done that we were elected to do... and if impeachment hearings become necessary after investigations are underway - after we start draining the swamp, and all those ugly facts come to light - so be it.

[Fovea]

69. 'an impeachment push will guarantee that no Republicans'

A complete investigation of the Repub admin and congress would be a lot more successful than the search for WMD. Public opinion is ready to turn Dubya over to the Hague. Investigation is not radical. Impeachment, given the scope of the malfeasance, would logically follow.

Consider, would the Republicans, post investigation and successful impeachment have a lot of starch left in them?

And even if they did, would president Pelosi veto these bills?

I think this is another, equally valid strategy. Decapitate and reform. I think it should also include at the very least, the congressional sponsors of the military commissions act, though that might be unsupportable for dems like Dennis Moore. It would be a lot easier to re-introduce bi partisanism with 2 branches of government under our control.

To solve the problems of the Bush administration, we can't be constantly watching our backs from Bush/Cheney/Rove. We need to remove them from the situation. Once that is done, everything you mention above becomes instantly more doable.

[mtnester]

71. Easy....I want my Grandpa to NOT have to decide between medicine and food

or anyone else for that matter

simple really

[Tatiana]

72. I happen to think we have very smart, very dedicated Democrats capable of multitasking.

I want all of the above, plus investigations leading to impeachment. Make no mistake, these thugs have too much pride to allow themselves to be removed from office. They'll resign.

But I want that sour taste to be left in their mouths that we don't F around with the Constitution or the principles this nation was founded on. Now if, by some chance, impeachment would grind the development and passage of legislation beneficial to this country, then yeah... I'd be willing to let it go. But I don't think it will. We're not the stupid party. We're a party comprised of representatives who are highly intelligent, experienced, and savvy.

[marions ghost]

100. agreed

they would resign if impeachment proceedings began. Because they know they're guilty as hell.

[seafan]

79. I don't consider this an "either/or" concept. All investigations will proceed at once.

From Elizabeth Holtzman: There are also those who say that this will disrupt congress. There are some people who say that congress can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Congress, during the impeachment of Richard Nixon, did all the other business of the country and the house judiciary committee did its job. Nothing was disrupted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2694132&mesg_id=2694785


My opinion from that thread:

George W. Bush has committed grievous crimes against our Constitution. He must be removed from power.

Once again, the American people must force our elected representatives to act.


To add even more critical urgency to the move for impeachment, George W. Bush was never elected in 2000. As a result, he has engorged himself on the tremendous power, the international respect and potential of the United States of America to improve the living standards of the world's people.

But, with his teeth bared, he invaded, he murdered, he robbed, he tortured, he eavesdropped, he threatened, he neglected.

And he joked about it.



This is our duty, people. We MUST ACT NOW, to rid ourselves of this horror.

It will take tremendous pressure on all of our elected officials. Every day that passes is one more day that George W. Bush will hurt our nation, our people and our way of life.

Let's get after it.

Now, back to this thread:


We The People have a duty to hold this man accountable. We have, to underestimate it wildly, more than enough evidence for Bush's crimes against our Constitution, willful violations of international prisoner treaties, illegal wiretapping and racketeering.

The sheer magnitude of it is frightening for many people. But being afraid is no reason to be paralyzed by it!


We must proceed now with articles of impeachment. That's the key point. We must proceed. It may be all that's necessary to *convince* him to resign on his own, early in the process.

If he doesn't, and the Senate is unable to gain a conviction, we still will have performed our duty as citizens. It will also illuminate for us, those members of the Senate who need to be voted out of office.


Don't let *the new minority* try to weaken our Constitutionally provided tool of Impeachment of harmful leaders, and frighten us away from it, as they did with the *nuclear option* against our tool of the Filibuster, when they crammed right wing zealots at us for the Supreme Court. This is unacceptable.



It's high time to grab these ba$tard$ by the monogrammed shirts (figuratively) and shove them back against the wall.

[RiverStone]

80. Impeach BushCo AFTER we pull out of Iraq and....

raise minimum wage, reduce health care costs.

We must put the continued loss of life in Iraq above the immediate desire to nail BushCo. After we accomplish this, then begin with impeachment. We can always start the ball rolling on investigations in the mean time. As much as he deserves to be impeached ASAP, anything that distracts from ending this tragic war could result in more needless loss of life.

[Greyhound]

81. Predictions for the given agenda;

Will happen.

Something will get through, but it will be too little and take too long to make any difference.

Never in a million years.

Smoke and mirrors, a bill will be passed and what is taken away will be given back away from the spotlight.

Like the minimum wage it will be a re-election prop, nothing to really address the issue.

This may slow the march toward fascism.

They will have control, what they do with it is what matters, we'll see.

We'll never know...

If AARP stays on their asses and doesn't sell out it's members for a 'deal', this could happen.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

If AARP stays on their asses...


But again, this is not an either or proposition. Investigations go on at the same time as everything else.

[Laurab]

82. I want all of the things you listed

and hopefully more, to get the country back on track, and out of the nightmare we've been living in. I don't think focusing on impeachment will do that. That being said, I also want Investigations, and I want them to lead wherever they lead (and I think we all know where they SHOULD lead).

Having just taken the majority, I do think the dems should concentrate on taking the country back, and not revenge - they'll be out almost as quickly as they got in, if they don't start undoing the damage the rethugs have done.

The choice to me is obvious - get the country on the right track. Keep them from doing any more damage, and pass the legislation that will help those of us who have been ignored for the past 6 years. As much as I want to see those criminals hauled off, I can wait for that.

I know it's not a popular thing to say on here, but I don't think impeachment should be "the hood ornament". I don't think that's why most people voted for dems. First, we need sanity.....a return to the country as we knew it. I'm content right now with the thought of the criminals being essentially neutered. Impeachment would make me happy, but it wouldn't fix the country...so lets multi-task, with the "hood ornament" being fixing our democracy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. That's why I do want impeachment.

[cassiepriam]

86. I want it all. nt

[katty]

90. We need to try to get the 'list' done first-want a Revolution

not just a Revolt.

[tavalon]

93. Yes, I want all of that and appropriate voting reform to boot

but I'm not one sweating the impeachment thing. There will be investigations and they will be publicized and when the shit awareness level hits a certain level in the populace, impeachment will follow rapidly. I'm going to enjoy every last hearing and can wait for the impeachment part. I was always good at waiting for my dessert.

In other words, I don't think we have to make such a choice just yet. We just need this stinking pile of shit to age a bit, get a little air and light and then when it bursts into flames as large piles of shit tend to, well, impeachment will be the result.

How do you see that one negates the other? Sure, we shouldn't carry the impeachment banner just yet. I really think the leadership is handling this part well but I just don't see it as an either/or in the long run.

[Hubert Flottz]

94. I think saving the Constiturion from any further damage or decay

should be #1. The other things will not help much, if we become the kingdom of Bush, an official banana republic. The PNAC's Unitary Executive Coup has gone far enough!

[liberalnurse]

96. I would "like" impeachment but I want to mend the wounds

inflicted upon our nation by this abusive administration much more than I want impeachment. I sincerely believe that karma will work thing out regarding justice......

Being an active Chapter Co-Chair of the Dayton- PDA; Progressive Democrats of America, the issue came up at our post election meeting. We all concur that we need to fix the the nation more. We have all been very vocal pre-election regarding impeachment but now with such an amazing Congressional win, we immediately began looking at the repair needs verses justice.

[omega minimo]

97. Let's have the Constitution be the Hood Ornament

and INVESTIGATIONS not be an afterthought on that laundry list.




And let's give the troops and vets from Iraq and Afghanistan a Front Seat.

[Disturbed]

102. Can Dems gets anything done?

If Busholini vetos can his veto be over ridden? What about his signing statements? What can Dems do about those?

[maryallen]

104. WAR CRIMES cannot be excused!

Impeach now!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

106. I Want Productive Legislation For The American People; Checks And Balances; The Restoration Of Honor

and integrity to Congress; the conversion of political spirit from one of an ignorant sports-like rah rah no matter what mentality to one of simply what's best for our society; the return of an open and transparent governmental process; the eradication of serious corruption; the thwarting of gross incompetence; the rubber stamp to be thrown away and serious congressional oversight and investigations into the many criminal and anti-constitutional actions of this current administration.

Those are the things I want and expect from our new Democratic leadership. Impeachment? That shouldn't even be a topic of discussion for quite some time yet as it would take considerable findings in the committee investigations before such a thing could even be considered up for debate. Talking about it ahead of time as if it should be already decided as our end game, and all other actions of ours will simply be done as filler to show we went through due diligence though our intentions were already decided, is the same damn violation of trust and integrity that the DSM shows.

Furthermore, setting a firm goal of impeachment prior to any real investigatory process is foolish and futile. We all know we need a two thirds majority to be successful, and we all know that ain't gonna happen going about it in such ways. It also would almost certainly cause 'Holy Joe' to become so disgusted with our actions that he'd start to caucus with the repubs and lose us the majority immediately.

If impeachment is to come it should only come after so many other things have been corrected for the American people and such thorough investigations have been done, and so many facts uncovered, that the public and Congress as a whole would have no choice but to support it as a means of justice for their crimes. But we are quite a long ways away from such outrage and I'm uncertain if that level of outrage could even be achieved in two short years. Nonetheless, if it is to be, it would be so far down the road that talking about it now is just a monumental waste of energy in my opinion. Right now our number one focus and priorities for the American people should be doing those things you mentioned in your OP.

[AntiFascist]

107. I have a question: why is this either / or? n/t

[robertpaulsen]

108. Will, if DU has that level of influence, the Chimp should just resign now.

I am ecstatic that we finally have control of Congress, but I have to ask, do we really have such an influence here that we help set the priorities for the agenda of the incoming majority? If we do, that's fantastic, I don't see how we'll have any problem getting everything on the wish list you just posted. But it doesn't seem to me as if that's what is happening, or Conyers and Pelosi wouldn't be making such statements about impeachment being "off the table".

I'm not saying DU doesn't have an influence, just that we aren't powerful enough to rush the process of investigations, so it kind of makes the debate over impeachment a moot point, which I addressed in this thread:

To impeach or not? I believe Waxman just made the debate a moot point.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2680730

Beyond that, I can say personally that I want to see justice prevail. If anyone in this sorry excuse of an administration committed a crime, they should do the time. I think Waxman, Conyers and Pelosi are aware this may take time for the American public to fully grasp the enormity of criminal activity that has occurred, though they may have differences in how they publicly acknowledge this prior to investigations. Once investigations are under way, I have faith that the rest of this country will react to what is already common knowledge on DU in the same way we have: outrage.

[AntiFascist]

111. Impeachment is already off the table...

that means the point of this OP is only an intellectual exercise to consider a "what if" scenario. Impeachment will NOT be used as a "hood ornament" in January.

[TahitiNut]

109. "So, Sophie, which child do you want to live?"

I find it appalling that 'liberals' would emulate the Nazi officer. As a liberal, I'm about supporting the expansion of choices, not the either-or restriction.

[David Zephyr]

110. I agree. Governing is about making choices.

Also, having a lame duck and a very discredited George Bush and Dick Cheney in the White House helps us elect even more Democrats in 2008, especially if investigations continue to reveal crimes.

Investigate, yes. Impeach, maybe not.

All of the progressive agenda that you mentioned is more important than impeaching the baboon.

[Time for change]

112. I'm not convinced that those are our choices

It seems to me that what you are saying is that if we go after impeachment then both Republican Congresspersons and Bush will hold back cooperating with us, thereby making our other goals more difficult to reach.

I'm not at all sure that that is the case. It seems to me the only kind of language that Bush and his Republican cohorts in Congress understand and react to is force. Their decision on whether or not to cooperate with Congressional Democrats, it seems to me, will be determined by whether or not they believe cooperating will be to their political advantage, not whether or not Democrats are following their Constitutional duty to impeach.

In fact, it may be that uncovering evidence of impeachable offenses will make our other goals easier to obtain, by virtue of putting Republicans on the defensive. The further impeachment proceeds the less popular Bush becomes and the more other Republicans are forced to side with us.

I think the key is to make it evident that this is not being done out of revenge, but rather because it is the only option our Constitution gives us to remove from office a president and vice president who have egregiously and continuously abused their office. I believe that not to do it would set a terrible precedent that would leave our government open to further abuses in the future.

But one thing I don't understand about what you are saying. You agree that investigations should be done, and that IF that leads to impeachment, then so be it. That seems to imply that you think that there is a possibility that investigations won't reveal impeachable offenses. Is that what you believe?

[nemo137]

113. I'd rather have my country back on its feet than be tilting at windmills.

So, yes, legislation now, then investigation, and if that brings enough evidence to light, impeachment. But first and foremost, let's have get things done that will actually, you know, benefit the American people.

[baltlib]

114. i agree...

there are other things we need to work on now

[Zhade]

115. False dichotomy.

False premise.

False choice.

[mom cat]

116. Agreed!

[Blue_Roses]

118. kick

well said!

[Clarkie1]

119. I am in 100% agreement with your OP, Will. nt

[Mme. Defarge]

121. I want a government of laws,

not of men(persons). That, for me, is primary. Anything that happens without/in spite of that is meaningless. As a social conservative, if my preferred "agenda" was primary, I would be able to justify a theocracy at the expense of our democracy. Our pre-election circumstances have forced me to decide on where my true loyalties lie.

WE MUST SAY NO TO TYRANNY!!! This is non-negotiable.

[puebloknot]

123. Big, mean dog!

With *no* intention to be flippant or dismissive, this image came to me when reading this list:


My German Shepherd was barking loudly out in my yard, and when I went to check out the situation, I observed that a woman had pulled up in front of my front gate, and was pointing at my dog. "Is this your big, mean dog?" she asked. (Some big, mean dog, not mine, had taken a bite out of her son.)

Sorry, but your either/or list forces a false choice.

I think there is a great deal of unnecessary rancor over the impeachment question here because people who are in favor of impeachment, for reasons backed up by existing law and some years of experience, are accused of having no attention span, of being childish brats who want what they want NOW, of trying to divide the Democratic party, of not having the intelligence that the "experts" have about the question.

Speaking for myself and most of the people I've been communicating with, it's quite obvious to us that impeachment cannot go forward without investigations (to include some material already gathered, however, by Conyers, and others), and impeachment cannot proceed NOW (as in starting in 2006) because the new Congress will not take power until January. Elementary, my Dear Dems.


Of course, we *all* want the items on that list to come into being sooner than later! However, another couple of items need to go on my personal wish list: A citizenry and their elected leaders that honor the rule of law, and refuse to consort willingly with criminals. A speaker of the house who does not pre-empt the rule of law and the will of the people for political reasons. From Watergate (which Nixon managed to squeak out of by resigning), we moved to Iran/Contra, and we sullied our national reputation by not holding the criminals accountable then. Now, we face another moment of accountability, and if we do not take responsibility, I think the above laundry list may simply become a moot point.

Do we really believe that by promising we won't impeach (they way we've promised we won't filibuster over some *really* serious issues), the Republicans are just going to become our lapdogs? Feels a bit like blackmail to me.

And are Republicans going to love us more if we just *conduct investigations* instead of impeaching? Semantics, that's all. If Republicans are so corrupt that they won't join with Democrats in removing the Bush administration from power, how likely is it that they'll be willing to pacify us by granting the above wishes? Are we going to be, metaphorically, the woman who keeps accepting candy and flowers from the abusive man who beats her?

When you're dealing with a big, mean dog, the dog can smell weakness.


Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[AntiFascist]

124. Another excellent post!

We're going to have to collect all these excellent posts regarding impeachment into one place.

Also, who's to say that impeachment proceedings won't lead to ending the war in Iraq? Personally, I have a hunch this will begin to happen once we begin uncovering all the corruption propping up our foreign policies. Then, imagine the peace dividends that can be used toward other Democratic legislation!

It's really too bad that the pro-war crowd has to be so defensive of such a corrupt Commander in Chief.

[puebloknot]

127. "...collect all these excellent posts regarding impeachment....

... into one place."

Yes!!! We can have our own DU cookbook: "How DemocraticUnderground.com Cooked George Bush's Goose!"


A little comic relief for my addled brain! Thanks for your comments. :)

Judy

[tomp]

125. the logical extension of pittism

do not make holding traitors accountable a top priority. forget about summing up the vitally important lessons of not just the last 6 years but of the lat 40. get behind the democratic party. not just lameass but dangerously lameass. not just arrogant but wrong.

[donheld]

126. Will

:yourock:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

129. Most everything you've listed is subject to Shrub's veto power. So although

we can get legislation started for our new Democrat President, whomever that might be, your laundry list is moot.