Iraq: Your Opinion (Part 2)

[H2O Man]

I think that the answers to "Iraq: Your Opinion, Please" indicate that DUers' opinions on the options for ending the US occupation in Iraq are progressive and represent what is becoming "main stream." I think it is interesting to note that while two years ago, the general public might have found DUers' opinions extreme and possibly difficult to relate to, today these opinions are becoming widely accepted. And President Bush is recognized as the extremist, with the "stay the course" strategy that few consider realistic.

I have a couple other simple questions that I am hoping you will answer for me. Again, this is not something where there is a "wrong" answer. I think the diversity and range of opinions on DU is one of our strengths.

{1} What democratic politician in either the House of Representatives or the Senate best represents your opinions on the topic of resolving the Bush-Cheney aggression in Iraq? Please feel free to list as many as you want.

{2} What progressive national figure, who may or may not be a recognized democratic "leader," do you think might best represent your beliefs and values in the national and international discussions on the growing tensions in the Middle East, including but not limited to the Bush-Cheney war in Iraq?

{3} What people from around the globe do you think would be the most effective in helping find solutions to the violence in Iraq?

As always, I very much appreciate DUers taking the time to present their opinions.

[AlamoDemoc]

1. I am pressed for time, so I will answer your questions as brief as time would permit me...

Answer #1: Very few elected Democrats....which is highly disappointing after such overwhelming referendum vote against the Iraq war.

Answer #2: So far my only pick is Sen. elect Sanders of Vermont

Answer#3: People of Middle East, South East Asia, and Finland

[stevedeshazer]

2. I hope this thread is as good as v.1, here's my take for what it's worth

{1} What democratic politician in either the House of Representatives or the Senate best represents your opinions on the topic of resolving the Bush-Cheney aggression in Iraq? Please feel free to list as many as you want.

In the Senate, I'd have to say that Joe Biden, who has championed partitioning (Kurds, Sunnis, Shi'ites) most closely represents my view on the resolution of the Iraq disaster.

In the House, Congressman Murtha is unquestionably the one I most agree with.

That said, I wouldn't back either of these guys on nearly any other issue. My support for both is about a mile wide and an inch deep, but given that the Iraq occupation is nearly an all-consuming issue, I agree with them on this one.

{2} What progressive national figure, who may or may not be a recognized democratic "leader," do you think might best represent your beliefs and values in the national and international discussions on the growing tensions in the Middle East, including but not limited to the Bush-Cheney war in Iraq?

Since I don't view either of my choices regarding the first question as anything resembling 'progressive', answering this question forces a cleverly designed answer to your even more clever juxtaposition of questions, whether intentional or not.

I find that when faced with a question including the term 'progressive', which I consider myself to be, I give a different answer than the first:

Dennis Kucinich. The guy who wants a cabinet-level Department of Peace. Who can argue with that?

The difference in my answers to your first and second questions really cuts to the chase here: Pragmatism? Or Progressivism? That's something each of us has to decide for themselves.

Where we end up in a year or two will help determine the correct answer to that question.

{3} What people from around the globe do you think would be the most effective in helping find solutions to the violence in Iraq?

Iraq's violence simply cannot be resolved by intervention from the West. Centuries of conflict bear this out.

Iraq's neighboring countries and the Iraqis themselves are the only entities that can prevail, because self-determination is the only course that free people can make. It's up to the people now.

What a mess.

[H2O Man]

14. "Whay a mess."

It is. The Bush-Cheney administration has created a terrible mess. I am reminded of a quote from Micheal Scheuer's book "Imperial Hubris," that sums up much of that terrible mess: " 'We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemma in Iraq after Afghanistan,' Ayman al-Zawahiri said in late 2003. 'The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw they will lose everything, and if they stay they will continue to bleed to death'." (page xxi) Michael points out that, "The military is now America's only tool and will remain so while the current policies are in place. No public diplomacy, presidential praise for Islam, or politically correct debate masking the reality that many of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims hate us for actions not values, will get America out of this war." (page x)

The first part of this soon-to-be three part survey was perhaps the "easiest" one to answer. This one, in a strange way, requires a little more examination of the reality of our choices as a nation. The third one will examine the limitations of our choices, unless we address the issue of the present executive branch's inability to be other than a stumbling block that prevents any solution at this time.

[Me.]

3. Honestly Don't Know

I agree with Murtha and Cindy Sheehan that we have to get out and I think the country will probably end up being partitioned. But the how is the big blank in the sky. Can it be done without many more lives be lost, without women losing their right entirely, without the county being subsumed into a theocracy?

But there are so many people we haven't heard from regarding a so;solut ion. Does Gore have something to say about this, Clinton, what do the vets have to say? What about the King of Jordan, he knows the people and the middle east?

Who does work solely for peace these days, do we have a Gandhi?

[H2O Man]

15. "... do we have a Gandhi?"

The correct answer is "yes, we do." It's inside each of us, and we need to have enough people around the globe have that part of themselves awaken, that we can resolve some of these issues that we are facing as the human family. Because someone in our house (George) has started so much of the violence, we need to focus on the US response. We need to reach a level of maturity and responsibility that we have not approached in 40 years. The good news is that we can do just that. The elections last week were a start.

[truedelphi]

20. And the King of Jordan's wife - isn't she also a

Spokeswoman for the region, one who has been well received in this country (Appeared on Larry King if memory serves)

[stevedeshazer]

4. I want to read what other DUers think

:kick:

[Jcrowley]

5. K & R

1) Kucinich

2) Chomsky, the deceased Edward Said, the deceased Paul Wellstone, Harry Belafonte

3) Vandana Shiva, Arundhati Roy, Fredy Perlman, Desmond Tutu

[hwmnbn]

6. The two people I always seem to agree with.....

are Russ Feingold and Dennis Kucinich.


on edit another person, although not an elected official, but someone who makes much sense regarding our predicament in the ME is commentator/analyst Fareed Zakaria.

[Swamp Rat]

7. Here you go:

1) Dennis Kucinich. See "The Kucinich Plan to Bring Our Troops Home:" http://www.kucinich.us/issues/bringourtroopshome.php

2) Al Gore

3) The united Nations/UNESCO/WHO, Red Cross, Institute of Nuclear Materials Management, International Association of Constitutional Law, Greenpeace, International Association for Business and Society, Association of Reproductive Health Professionals, International Commission of Agricultural Engineering, Association of Traumatic Stress Specialists, NGOs, International Federation of Consulting Engineers, religious organisations dedicated to peace, International Radiation Protection Association, Nobel prize winners who are dedicated to working for peace, Humane Society, anti-pollution organisations, Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology, International Association for Cross-Cultural Psychology, Arab Union of Scientists & Researchers, Institute of Industrial Engineers, International Federation of Environmental Health, InterAcademy Panel on International Issues, International Peace Research Association... and so much more.

[Lilith Velkor]

8. My opinion

I feel laconic tonight, but here goes: 1) Dennis Kucinich, 2) Aaron McGruder, 3) people who live in Iraq.

Now to go check the other thread.

[bleever]

9. My thoughts for the third question would be people

like Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, and Jimmy Carter, who have experience finding solutions to situations where there is long-standing animosity between ethnic and political groups.

George Mitchell might be a good suggestion for question 2.

[bobbolink]

10. The Congressional Black Caucus, plus Waxman and Slaughter

Actually, maybe it's just that he lives down the road, but I think Gary Hart has some important input on this matter.

NOt to mention, as always, John Dean, and of course, Sibel Edmonds!

For # 3, how 'bout doing something totally off the wall, and bring in Desmond Tutu, and the Dalai Lama?!

[rosesaylavee]

11. I too am interested to read who others choose...

1. John Kerry. He was the first to suggest that we redeploy or the first person I heard say it publicly.

2. Al Gore and Jimmy Carter.

3. The United Nations.

[ms liberty]

12. Good questions...

1) Bernie Sanders, Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, and Dennis Kucinich (sp?) are the ones who come to mind most as representative of my views on most subjects, to varying degrees.

2) Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn. Bill Clinton might be able to do some good, he's pretty well liked by the rest of the world, he's got charm up the yazoo - but he's NOT a progressive, at least not IMHO. A combination of the people listed might be the best solution.

3) The people of Iraq. Iran. Syria. Hugo Chavez. Nelson Mandela. Desmond Tutu. Mikail Gorbachev (sp?).

I'll probably think of other, better choices later, when I'm not on the computer. If I do, I'll just have to post again!

[ms liberty]

13. Good questions...

1) Bernie Sanders, Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, and Dennis Kucinich (sp?) are the ones who come to mind most as representative of my views on most subjects, to varying degrees.

2) Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn. Bill Clinton might be able to do some good, he's pretty well liked by the rest of the world, he's got charm up the yazoo - but he's NOT a progressive, at least not IMHO. A combination of the people listed might be the best solution.

3) The people of Iraq. Iran. Syria. Hugo Chavez. Nelson Mandela. Desmond Tutu. Mikail Gorbachev (sp?).

I'll probably think of other, better choices later, when I'm not on the computer. If I do, I'll just have to post again!

[sandnsea]

16. John Kerry

From the beginning and all the way through. He's always had the exact right approach for the moment, including the IWR vote to get inspectors into Iraq. Too bad nobody ever listened to him. And still aren't.

[H2O Man]

17. John Kerry.

A couple weeks ago, one of my DU friends and I discussed Kerry's future. I said that I thought Kerry might be of most value in the Senate. My friend took offense at my saying that. I meant it in all sincerity, and not i any sense as an insult.

First, the Senate is not doing that which it is intended. I don't think it is a stretch to say that we are in a situation not unlike the infamous "Gilded Age." It's worth looking at what had changed from the "Golden Age" of the Senate, which most historians consider to be, approximately, the three decades before the Civil War.

There were weasals in both eras. One of the huge differences is that we think of the great statesmen of that Golden Age being able to motivate the nation with ideas. I say over and over that Americans today tend to underestimate the Power of Ideas. But when we examine Senators like Henry Clay, John Calhoun, and Daniel Webster, we see the ability of talented individuals to open people's minds with the Power of Ideas, and to motivate them to work towards reaching a higher ground as a nation.

I admire Ted Kennedy. But I think he is of more value as a Senator, than were he to run for the presidency. I think Ted is one of the great Senators of our nation's history. I think that John Kerry is also that type of leader. I still love his talk to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April of '72. But I think his most important work was his attempts to show the American public the full extent of the Iran-Contra scandals. I would love to have him focus his considerable talents on the issues of Iraq.

[H2O Man]

18. Two thoughts:

{1} I am not comfortable with James Baker III running the show for the national study of options in Iraq.

{2} While I think we should leave Iraq yesterday, I would be interested in a democratic commission led by Rep. Murtha, Senator Biden, and General Wesley Clark.

[Me.]

19. !

Good inclusion with Clark

[robertpaulsen]

21. I wish this would get more responses.

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. Here's my two cents:

{1} In the House, it's Dennis Kucinich. In the Senate, it's Paul Wellstone, may he rest in peace. I want to say regarding Murtha that I like him. He's not my choice for Majority Leader, but I do support his nomination because of the importance of the Iraq issue. I think that sometime in late 2007, when whatever stalling advocated by the Baker Commission implemented by Bush have proven to be ineffective, Murtha's plan will come to fruition, perhaps in combination with some of Wes Clark's ideas, as you suggest.

My fear is that as we withdraw, and the violence continues, the Rethug battle cry as we head into the 2008 election will be: "See? We're gradually withdrawing like the Democrats wanted, but the situation isn't getting better!" Not that my belief that we must withdraw ASAP would not result in continued violence, just that I think it would more directly address the truth that Iraq is a NO-WIN situation. The Pandora's box has already been opened, the belief that we can "stabilize" Iraq as we leave is as mistaken as thinking that we can put everything back in Pandora's box after it has been opened.

{2} Kucinich again. He's got the vision thing, unfortunately I think the big money powers that be consider him a threat to business as usual, regardless of their political affiliation.

{3} I would recommend having Jimmy Carter, Jesse Jackson or Nelson Mandela organize some kind of summit to iron out a solution where we (gulp) talk to insurgents to negotiate a ceasefire so we can come up with some kind of peaceful resolution to this mess.