A request for at least a minimum of respect.

[hedgehog]

It seems that whenever the subject of abortion comes up, there are those who proceed to mock any concern for the fetus. I've even seen pictures of fetuses photo-shopped to do little tricks. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, does anyone deny that the fetus consists of some form of life, even if you don't think it qualifies as human life? Can we at least address this issue without the crude jokes? I think part of respecting a woman's right to choose should include respect for the fact that she is making a serious decision. For many women, it is the least bad of many alternatives, not exactly something to celebrate.

[Hekate]

1. You have it from me -- always

There's nothing easy about this decision, which has dimensions that are personal, social, physical, psychological, and spiritual.

Hekate

[hedgehog]

3. In Japan there are shrines set up that allow women to mourn the

fetuses they have aborted. Too many think the only options are to elevate the fetus above the woman or else to treat it as unwanted trash. The truth is a lot more complicated.

[Hekate]

12. Japanese response is pragmatic on the surface and conflicted underneath; spiritual solution...

Sorry, trying to get too much into the subject line. Are you referring to the Mizuko Jizo?

Several years ago I did my dissertation on women and ritual, and although I touched on death of the unborn (miscarriage, stillbirth, abortion) as a life-event that cries out for ritual, I didn't do a chapter on it. I read some very profound papers though, and one book that really struck a chord: "Liquid Life: Abortion and Buddhism in Japan" by the scholar William R. LaFleur.

The Japanese legalized abortion in response to their population crisis at the end of WW II, and even after the advent of The Pill the medical establishment there preferred abortion because they believed that The Pill affects the entire body all the time (which is true) but an early abortion affects only the womb. And yet... there is clearly a long-term affect on women.

LaFleur goes deeply into the complex historic and cultural roots of the Mizuko Jizo, a boddhisatva who has become over centuries a guide of souls for unborn children. Over centuries because infanticide was for a long time the secret unspoken-of method of limiting family size when other means failed.

If you have not read this book, I recommend it. In fact I recommend it to anyone with an interest in what a spiritual response to abortion might be in a decidely non-Western and non-Christian context, particularly since one of the central tenets of Buddhism is non-harm to other living beings. Buddhist doctrine must balance different kinds of harm -- such as the harm to a woman with an unwanted pregnancy and the harm to a family unit in having to support additional child(ren).

Hekate

[Sapphocrat]

2. "pictures of fetuses photo-shopped to do little tricks"?!

OMFG. I am very glad I haven't seen that. That's disgusting. May as well Photoshop Terri Schiavo to "do little tricks." :puke:

100% pro-choice here, and I wouldn't stand for that for one second, either.

[hedgehog]

4. I saw it on a thread last week and I can't get it out of my mind.

I don't even think the thread addressed abortion as such. I have held baby chicks in my hand that were kicked out of the nest and died despite all I could do for them. Watching the development of a human from embryo to fetus to child is so marvelous that I can't understand someone making a joke of it when something goes wrong whether it's the mother's situation or the fetus's genetics.

[Midlodemocrat]

5. Thank you for this.

I am vehemently pro-choice...for others. I was never in a situation where abortion was a realistic option, but I recognize that for some there is no alternative.

When I was pregnant with my son, the pre-natal tests came back that he probably had Down Syndrome. No biggie. But, once you go through genetic testing prior to additional testing, you are HOPING for Down Syndrome, and hoping that the child doesn't have something that will render her or him incompatible with life.

I have never believed it is an easy choice for anyone to make and I don't think we should make light of it.

[Catherine Vincent]

6. This is a good thread to recommend.

I usually stay away from the abortion threads.

[twilight_sailing]

7. Define your terms.

"Regardless of where you stand on this issue, does anyone deny that the fetus consists of some form of life, even if you don't think it qualifies as human life?"

Define your terms. What sort of nebulous value are you giving the word "life" but not human life?

[hedgehog]

9. I guess I noted the respect so many of us give non-human life

such as food animals or pets. It seems only proper to respect that in-between life that has the potential of being human. I think none of us would speak of dead baby seals the way some speak of an aborted fetus.

[VeggieTart]

8. You're absolutely right.

I would never do that. I am vehemently pro-choice and very grateful I have never had to make that choice.

[On the Road]

10. I For One Think That ("Some Form of Life")

is the crux of the whole debate -- at what point does am embryo or fetus become a human life.

It's difficult for me to think that that happens before brain waves begin at about the 10th week. And it certainly isn't later than the end of the second trimester, when the baby would live if born prematurely. To me, those are the reasonable limits of the debate.

And yet for some reason the pro-abortion community evades the issue entirely despite a reasonably good set of arguments.

[puebloknot]

11. Hello.

I haven't exchanged messages with you before. I'm fairly new here.

With respect, I must say that prior to the time when the religious right began its campaign to try to end choice for women, this subject was respectfully between a woman and her husband, a woman and her doctor. It has become *such* a tawdry subject since it was dragged into the political arena and respect for personal decisions has been lost. I think concern for the fetus is the province of the people who have to make the decision whether to abort or go forward with a pregnancy. I think that it is not my affair, nor is it the affair of anyone not directly involved in the decision.

The kind of mocking you seem to have come upon is in line with the truly sick kinds of things done on Halloween by religious groups. I can think of no better definition of child abuse than dragging a young child through those horror houses that show a woman "killing her baby."

The question of when life begins is one that we could argue interminably. The whole attempt to ban birth control on the part of the rabid fundamentalists is based on the idea that preventing the beginning of life is tantamount to murder. That view sees the potential for a new life with almost every sexual act. So people in thrall to that concept have 8, 10, 12 children. Education is the answer to all this! And I, personally, don't really find it necessary to do a lot of talking about "the fetus," as other concerns occupy my time.

I am very much in favor of giving respect to human life, first by putting an end to our tendency to make war, and secondly by having policies in place that care for the already-living. I look forward to the day when the high drama of opposition to abortion is taken out of the public square. I don't advocate forcing that. I just hope we'll evolve beyond it, and find ways to understand that abortion is a personal choice (sometimes a personal necessity), and not something to be legislated by any government.

I can dream!

[hedgehog]

14. Good point!

A lot of the Right to Lifers have no idea what anguish many women go through. I suppose there are some women who can shrug off an abortion; but for most it's an excruciating decision. The suggestion that women have abortions because it's convenient or easy is beyond insulting.

[puebloknot]

16. Agreed! nt

[blondeatlast]

15. That's a stand-alone thread in itself. Beautifully stated.

I don't know that I've encountered you before, but welcome to DU.

Some things don't belong in the public arena--in fact a lot of them don't. But it's high drama for people with dull lives, so we yell instead of debate. As John Stewart said about the "Crossfire" masquerading as thoughtful debate: "You're hurting America." Indeed, making difficult issues into sound bites is doing just that.

We seem to want the perfect solution to getting the US out iof Iraq and that holds us back from achieving the goal immeasurably. Nobody wants to risk offending anyone, so we get again--three minute sound bites.

Same with the abortion debate. No one wants to get into the ugly business of truly, thoughtfully, debating the issue so we instead yell at each other.

Great post--thanks.

[puebloknot]

17. Thank you.

I've been around for 18 months or more, but mostly lurking and reading.

I appreciate the compliment, but I think I'll save my energy for things that I consider more important right now than the abortion debate. It *is* important, but I agree about the matter of nobody wanting to risk offending anyone. We should have been offending the right-wingers to the max, a long time ago.

In my dreams, this election will change things. I'm not holding my breath!


Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[Spider Jerusalem]

13. Well...

I can only go so far as agreeing that an embryo/fetus constitutes POTENTIAL life. It doesn't constitute ACTUAL life until such point as it is capable of existence outside the womb--which is generally in the late second/early third trimester, which is ALSO the cutoff point where an ethical physician will no longer provide abortion services without the mitigating presence of a serious condition warranting termination of the pregnancy.