Did Michael Moore's "Letter to Disheartened Conservatives" plagiarize a DUer?

[derby378]

[neuvocat]

1. Links?

[derby378]

4. Here ya go

From Michael Moore on November 14:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2712503

From The Witch on November 8:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2633923

[RadiDem]

2. Evidence?

[RC]

3. Where's the evidence here?

Or is this like a limpba hit?

[Kelly Rupert]

5. link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2716486

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. Highly Unlikely.

There were definitely some similarities, but all the points made were ones shared by countless numbers of people. There were no points made that were uncliche or radical in any way, so it would seem to be far more likely to have been just been a case of thinking alike. I doubt highly that MM plagiarized a DU'er.

[Kelly Rupert]

8. Line for line?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Line For Line Is A Hugely Misleading Exaggeration, With All Due Respect.

[Kelly Rupert]

19. The sentiments were identical line to line.

Though the wording was changed around a bit, yes.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. This Really Is Such A Stretch. These Are Sentiments That Thousands Of People Could've Written.

Almost every single point made in both of them are things I've repeated at one point or another myself since last Tuesday. There is nothing revolutionary or overly original in either of them. The points were made in completely different ways, orders and manners. To call it plagiarism is just totally reaching and creating a controversy that isn't real.

Oh, plagiarism is a pretty serious charge, by the way. It shouldn't be thrown around so recklessly and lightly.

[boolean]

34. Yeah, but not THOSE sentiments

Not those exact sentiments, all at the same time. I really hate to say bad on MM, but come on. This IS serious, and while I think MM is one the greatest liberals out there, somebody copied something here.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. I Just Can't Really See Him Having Done That. I Guess I'm Going With The Benefit Of The Doubt Here.

[LA lady]

7. HELL YES!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2716486

[stepnw1f]

47. Try Not to Get Too Excited (nt)

[Epiphany4z]

9. it looks like it to me

he probably got it in e mail with no name attached and just went with it....it was great I passed it on to a few people and one other message board..I did however send along a link to the original posted here so credit was given.

[Greyhound]

10. Similar in structure and sentiment, but very different. OTOH I didn't

go all the way through to look at exact wording, but what I did notice was not the same. OTOH, I could see "the DUer's" post as an inspiration for the MM letter.

My vote is a definite maybe.

[silverweb]

Quien sabe?

The Witch's DU post was a wonderfully organized, succinct, inspired statement.

IF Moore's original inspiration or his outline structure came from that post -- which it may or may not have -- he did an eloquent job of fleshing it out.

We don't know if he spotted the DU post himself, or if a friend or staff member spotted it and gave him the idea -- or if great minds just think alike and sometimes have the same inspiration.

IMHO.

[Pithlet]

23. That's pretty much how I feel about it.

I don't think it's conclusive at this point at any rate.

[uppityperson]

12. Has Mike had a chance to respond or are you ready to crucify him?

Give him a chance to respond before jumping to conclusions. It could be an honest mistake, it might not. Cripes people. Eating your own is a bit much. I think Witch wrote him, as did I and others. Give it a chance to see how it plays out before mobbing with torches.:grr: :grr: :grr:

[derby378]

15. It's only a simple question

I haven't stated my opinion one way or the other on this question yet. And I happen to like Moore. Relax. :hi:

[uppityperson]

17. why start a poll until the facts come in?

seems like trying to stir things up since there is already another couple threads on it. The grr grr guys are for everyone, not just you. Remember, I am uppity.

[Paladin]

26. You LIke Moore? Yeah, Right

I'm sure his viewpoints on guns just fill you with joy. Be honest.

[uppityperson]

27. what's wrong wtih his viewpoints on guns?

and you know you can like a person, what they do, and not agree totally with everything about him. Shades of grey vs black/white.

[derby378]

36. Absolutely

It's a shame some people apparently can't grasp that concept.

[Paladin]

57. Grasp This

We all have evidence of just how much you like Michael Moore. Yesterday, you and a few other DUers decided to go public with this half-assed "plagiarism" accusation. Today, it's been picked up and splattered all over Michelle Malkin's hysterical right wing shriek sheet for the pleasure of Democrat haters everywhere. Thanks a whole bunch.

[T Town Jake]

45. For someone so disdainful of "guns" you sure seem to obsess...

...a good deal about them, and their owners. Particularly those owners who participate at this website, even if they're not posting about firearms at all.

Reminds me a bit of those Fundy Evangelical crusaders who "battle" pornography by thumbing through reams and reams of it, so their parishioners won't have to....

[patrice]

13. It's a public forum; things like that are okay. No copyrights.

We're not getting paid.

This is a voluntary activity.

I don't care if someone uses something I wrote, but it's nice to have attribution from the user, were that to be the case.

[Skinner]

16. No offense, but that isn't correct.

This may be a public forum, but that does not give anyone the right to rip-off an idea from one of our members, borrow the sentiments line-by-line, and then pass it off as his own. This site has a copyright notice on every page, and it is as good as anyone's.

I am going to withhold judgment until all the facts are in. But at this point I must admit that I find it to be extremely disturbing.

Skinner
DU Admin

[patrice]

24. Thanks for the info.

I wonder if M. Moore wrote the letter himself.

[berni_mccoy]

56. Thank you for that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. Copyright Is Assumed Immediately After Creation, Without Need For Declaration, Submission Or

application.

Many people think that you need to apply for a copyright or be under a certain set of narrow rules for a copyright, but in reality any original intellectual property is technically covered by copyright the second it is physically created.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Sorry, but this doesn't get to the level of plagiarism.

Moore has always been sloppy around the edges -- misses a few details, jumbles facts, borrows ideas without always knowing where he got them. At the very worst, witch's idea (assuming it was hers originally) was an inspiration but not the template. The two compositions are structured significanlty differntly and share very few exact passages. We might be able to argue that Moore used witch's post as the original spark or even a zero draft, but not much is left of the original content.

[MrSlayer]

25. I agree.

This is not plagiarism. Well said.

[tuvor]

18. What's the point of a poll? Only Michael Moore can answer the question.

I presume he's been contacted. Let's wait for a reply.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Are you kidding? Seems like a joke of a question.

[Beelzebud]

22. Get real....

Score another win for the right-wing.

They fooled even liberal Democrats into hating Michael Moore.

[Sapphocrat]

28. What did the right wing have to do with this?

:shrug:

[Beelzebud]

29. It has to do with Michael Moore in general. They made him a target,

and it seems like a lot of liberals bought into it for some reason.

I see a lot of Moore bashing here, and in other liberal blogs.

[0rganism]

30. Not really, no

After reading the two side by side, I'd have to say no.

I don't think their similarities rise to the level of plagiarism, even if Moore did happen to use the Witch's article as inspiration -- and even then, who knows how he read it or whether he knew where it was from? Only Mike himself could really speak to this.

Witch's is succinct and concise, Mike's runs along the same lines but isn't nearly as quick to read. The substance and organization are different, even if the overall sentiments are similar.

Making a stink about this is probably *not* the best way to make either person's statement stick. In fact, it turns the whole thing into a laughing stock to pillory Moore -- and Kitchen Witch by association.

Witch, if you're reading this, please remember that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Pithlet]

37. I think if he took inspiration from it

than he should have credited it. But, otherwise I agree. I don't think there's any conclusive evidence that even that occurred. They just aren't enough similarities to make me think it's even likely. I think it's possible. But, at this point people are jumping to conclusions.

[treestar]

31. No, that idea could have occurred to more than one person

He just put the same thoughts his way.

[boolean]

33. Do you have any idea what the chances of that are?

Every single bullet point, put down in the same way?

[boolean]

32. Take your heads out of the mud. He copied it.

Sure, everyone can have these sentiments. But not those particular sentiments in a group at the same time. Not those particular sentiments in a different order at the same time. Not those particular sentiments with certain words changed or rearranged at the same time.

The probability of Michael Moore having these exact same sentiments, in a rearranged order, in the same presentation style, within the week is astronomically small.

I love Michael Moore. But he copied this, or someone else copied it for him, or the DUer copied him....Whatever the case, there is NO WAY two people could write two things as similar as these without plagiarism.

[Mr_Spock]

40. I think it may have inspired him

I'd say more than likely it inspired him. Perhaps someone should send him an email - I'd like to hear his explanation before I fillet him...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. Though I'm In Belief It Was Coincidence, In Respect To The DU'er She Had Him Beat By A Week.

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. Yes, I think it's pretty obvious

Those kind of similarities are far more than incidental. I think it's disappointing that so many here are defending Moore simply because it's Michael Moore. This election should have been a lesson - rightwingers who were blind to corruption and dishonesty on their side were hypocrites, and American recognized them as such. We CANNOT afford to turn a blind eye to uncomfortable information against "our guys" or else we are effectively sending a message to the American people that we intend to be just like the rightwing and ignore corruption in our own house - which, ironicallly, is the opposite of the sentiment The Witch/Michael Moore expressed.

Michael Moore isn't even a Dem, people; why are people so sure he's capable of no wrongdoing?

[Pithlet]

42. I don't think that's fair.

If it hadn't been pointed out to me, I'm not even sure I would have thought that one piece ripped off the other. I think the ideas are similar. If Michael Moore indeed was inspired by Witch's post, then he was wrong not to credit it. But, I haven't been shy about giving him criticism where it was due. I just honestly don't see it as obvious plagiarism. I might be missing something. I could be wrong. But, I think people who don't see the glaring similarities are genuine. And I think people who aren't ready to jump to conclusions yet are being entirely reasonable.

[BrightKnight]

43. I hope people are getting ideas from DU.

Many people get ideas from DU. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. I'm thrilled if we can help one of our talking heads.

I don't know if she helped him or not. The stink about it smells like something from Freeperland.

[Buzz Clik]

46. Good opening point.

Last week, a DUer posted the famous picture of Rummy shaking hands with Saddam. The pic had been photoshopped to have Rumsfeld saying, "Is it me, or has this been a shitty week." Saddam: "Don't get me started..."

Jon Stewart on The Daily Show flashed the original, unaltered picture and said (roughly), "Little did we know that Saddam and Rumsfeld would have equally shitty weeks." As far as I was concerned, that was great. I'd love to be ripped off by The Daily Show writers.

[Buzz Clik]

44. Okay, let's take the time to examine this.

In the absence of Michael Moore logging onto DU and posting a confession, all we can do is speculate.

Here's the original posting from The Witch here at DU (I've added numbers to assist in the discussion):

Dear dismayed conservatives:

I hereby make these promises to you.

1. We will protect your lives and livelihoods.

2. We will listen to and respect your beliefs.

3. We will never try to force you to change your religion, sexual orientation, or first language.

4. We will do our best to reduce the number of abortions in our country.

5. We will have no tolerance for corruption and cronyism, even in our own party.
ESPECIALLY in our own party.

6. We will never tell you that you are unpatriotic.

7. We will never tell you that your opinion doesn't count.

8. We will never waste your lives for power.

9. We will hold our leaders to a high ethical standard and when they succumb to lust for power, WE WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

10. If we forget this, please, please, please, remind us.

11. We need you to do this. You are America as much as we are.
Let's go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2633923

This post was only 150 words, so I copied this one rather than Moore's very extensive letter (about 900 words). http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2712503

In looking for plagiarism, one looks for reproduction of unique ideas, unusual structure, exact quotes, and/or close paraphrasing without proper referencing. If enough evidence is found, then steps are taken. Certainly, The Witch posted before Moore, so we're assuming that The Witch is the offended party.

In her posting, I have labeled 11 points. Of these, the specific concepts in five points were not addressed at all in Moore's letter: 1, 3, 4, 7, and 8. Some of the vague notions are mentioned, but the intent is completely different.

Witch's point 2 is similar in language and intent to a portion of Moore's Point 1. She says, "respect your beliefs", Moore says "respect you for your conservative beliefs." Though the language is similar, this is standard grist for this kind of letter.

Also in Moore's point 1, he says, "We will never, ever, call you 'unpatriotic' simply because you disagree with us. In fact, we encourage you to dissent and disagree with us." The Witch: "We will never tell you that you are unpatriotic." The language and intent is similar, but hardly a unique complaint among those on the left.

In The Witch's points 5 and 9,, she promises that the Democrats will not tolerate corruption and lack of ethics; and in point 10 she asks the conservatives to "remind us". Moore approaches the same concepts in his point 12 but uses different language and develops the notion more thoroughly. Considering the nonstop press coverage of GOP ethical violations for the past 12 months, one can't assume that The Witch invented this notion.

In point 11, The Witch says, "You are America as much as we are." Moore makes a similar observation: "... this is your country, too. You are every bit as American as we are." This one actually caused me to raise an eyebrow.

Having been involved in evaluations of this kind many, many times, my opinion would be that I understand the concern over the similarities. However, The Witch's letter was quite brief and undeveloped compared to Moore's, and 75% of Moore's letter has no similarity at all to The Witch's. The official response would be that Moore be very careful to avoid all appearances of this kind of problem, but that no evidence exists of true plagiarism.

I will also tell you that other people have different views about plagiarism. For some, the similarities between the two letters might trigger an official investigation, including documentation from Moore indicating the development of his letter.

[stepnw1f]

48. Sorry, But I See a Big Difference

There are similiarities but plagiarized? Bring him to court... if you don't, I'll chalk this up as a smear hit on the man.

[newworld]

49. Voted no..

Great minds think alike.

[Ganja Ninja]

50. I don't know why either of them wrote the letter in the first place.

The last thing we should be doing right now is trying to console distraught right wingers.

[AZBlue]

51. I don't know if it's plagerism but it sure seems he got the idea from The Witch.

I think plagerism would have to be a more word-for-word copy. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Michael Moore didn't peruse DU and it does seem that he may have gotten the idea from that post. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do about copying an idea - but I may be wrong, I'm no attorney.

[Horse with no Name]

52. I just watched a speech that MM gave in 2004

Plagiarism *might* be an issue if it wants to be conceded that these people didn't have the same thought processes (as most of us have had since the election).
However, it seems the plagiarism shoe might not be on the foot you at first thought.
I hope MM doesn't take offense to the post that claimed he stole her work, when by the using the same criteria she used, he could claim she stole his.

[flowomo]

54. I agree with you... the video is telling

[RevolutionStartsNow]

55. Anyone have the transcript of that speech?

I'd like to see it.

My first thought when I got MM's email was the Witch's post, but if MM said something very similar in 2004, there are a lot of people getting pissed off for nothing.

[tishaLA]

58. You're absolutely correct

The question might be the antithesis of the one posed here.

[Naturyl]

53. Maybe.

It's hard to tell, but I have to admit, it does look a little suspicious.

[Red Right and BLUE]

59. I'm saying Maybe. See this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2712503&mesg_id=2715793

[AnnInLa]

60. I don't know, but I admire them both......and,

Michelle Malkin had the DU thread front-and-center on her website yesterday, talking about MM being a plagairist (sp). But, she made a good point, that "everyone" publishes "manifestos" these days and everyone borrows from all other manifestos....it's just a list, not a work of literature.