WOW! It sure looks like Murtha would have gone down if not for Tip O'Neil.

[trumad]

This piece by Justin Rood of TPM Muckraker is pretty damning.

You can see for yourself why that may have been hard to do. The American Spectator got ahold of the FBI's ABSCAM tape of its meeting with Murtha, and you can view it on the magazine's Web site. It's 53 minutes long, but a representative sample can be seen if you start at around 15:23 and watch for a few minutes.

"I'm gonna be blunt," an FBI man says to Murtha after laying out what favors he was looking to buy. "Are you telling me now. . . you don't want any money on this thing?"

"There's some places I'd like you to invest some money, in the banks, in my district," Murtha responds. "I'd say some substantial deposits." He explains later how he does so many favors for people that, if they weren't all for individuals in his district, "people would say, that son of a bitch. . . is on the take."

"Once they say that, what happens?" Murtha asks the FBI men rhetorically, ignorant of the fact that he was explaining his own M.O. to agents trying to bust him for corruption. "Then they start going around looking for the goddamn money. So I want to avoid that by having some tie to the district. That's all. That's the secret to the whole thing."

With comments like that, and a zealous special prosecutor for the House ethics committee examining the evidence, how did Murtha avoid even a slap on the wrist? Easy: he was protected from even becoming the subject of investigation by Democratic leadership at the time.

In 1980, Tip O'Neill was House Speaker and the center of Democratic power in Washington, George Crile wrote in his book, "Charlie Wilson's War." Murtha was a member of O'Neill's inner circle. more....
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001993.php

[Schema Thing]

1. wow is right.

[CAcyclist]

2. I'm going to be pretty skeptical about anything like this

coming out now.

[MethuenProgressive]

3. Old news rehashed only to do harm, is called Swiftboating

[On the Road]

5. No -- Making Things Up is Swiftboating

Murtha is on tape.

[Stand and Fight]

8. Right... Watch the tape. Have you bothered?

Because if you have , I have to wonder how you think his words PROVE he is corrupt.

[On the Road]

31. Video's Been Tied Up -- Relying on the Transcript

Here's one place that IMO is pretty damning:

"I'm gonna be blunt," an FBI man says to Murtha after laying out what favors he was looking to buy. "Are you telling me now. . . you don't want any money on this thing?"

"There's some places I'd like you to invest some money, in the banks, in my district," Murtha responds. "I'd say some substantial deposits." He explains later how he does so many favors for people that, if they weren't all for individuals in his district, "people would say, that son of a bitch. . . is on the take."

"Once they say that, what happens?" Murtha asks the FBI men rhetorically, ignorant of the fact that he was explaining his own M.O. to agents trying to bust him for corruption. "Then they start going around looking for the goddamn money. So I want to avoid that by having some tie to the district. That's all. That's the secret to the whole thing."

Understand what Murtha is saying -- he in principle accepting a bribe. He is just asking for the money in a different way that is "tied to the district" and thus more difficult for an investigator to find. The phrase "people would say (he's) on the take" is a way of admitting to being on the take and trying to hide that. I've heard other politicians like Kissinger use that same manner of speaking.

This is certainly TPM Muchkraker's read, and it certainly reads that way to me. Proof? In a courtroom sense, of course not. That's the reason it's couched in this indirect language. That language in itself indicates that there's something to conceal.

Relying on "never been indicted" or "not courtroom proof" to defend one's own party leaders is not a particularly good way to go into an anticorruption campaign.

[troublemaker]

14. Thank you!

Murtha's use of the term "swiftboating" marks him as a low character... seeking to delegitimize honest discussion and essentailly saying that anyone who doesn't like him must be a republican mole and .

By accusing Hoyer of swiftboating him Murtha is swiftboating Hoyer--a baseless smear offered with no evidence. (Is there anything worse you can say about a Democrat than that he is a swiftboater?)

[lapfog_1]

Murtha is on tape doing what exactly?

I watched the tape. There isn't any illegal actions caught on tape.

It's like a drug sting op... let me explain: You are walking down the street, somebody stops you and says "Hey buddy, you want to buy some drugs?" What do you do? Let's say that you tell the guy "No, I'm not interested in drugs, but I could use some aspirin. About those illegal drugs, let me get back to you later about that". Are you guilty? Can the FBI even charge you? No and No.

So he didn't take the bribe money, no charges were ever filed, so what.

More troubling to me is having his brother as a lobbyist and Murtha maybe directing contracts to companies which hired his brothers firm.

One of the new ethics rules should be "No members of a congressperson's immediate family can, in any way, be associated with lobbyists working on the behalf of companies doing business with the federal government."

Personally, I think it's crap that all of this is being revisited by the networks. Over and over. If it was THAT damming, why didn't it come out when the rabid right in this country were so pissed at "cut and run" Murtha? It's not like Abscam was some big dark secret that was "just now remembered". Please.

I really wish Pelosi had picked a compromise choice.

The DLC is heavily backing Steny, and that bothers me more than Murtha and Abscam. I think the DLC is PNAC lite.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Shouldn't The Standard Be Higher Then It's Ok If No Charges Were Filed...

eom

[lapfog_1]

27. Not in a STING!

That's like saying "Jeez, the police targeted you, but you didn't do anything illegal, but they TARGETED you, so you have to pay!"

I don't like what he said on tape... but then even *I* have been in situations where I've "excused myself gracefully"...

For example: I was staying with friends, one of whom did recreational drugs... one night there was a party and my friend invited me to "partake". Now, I've done some recreational drugs a long time ago, so it's not a moral objection, but I don't choose to do drugs now, for any reason. But, instead of telling my friend "No, I don't believe in drugs and I don't do them... and you shouldn't either!", I just said something to the effect "No not right now, maybe later". Was that a little weak? yes... but I don't think those who believe that drugs are not only illegal but immoral should pass some sort of judgment on me.

the Abscam stuff is a non-issue and should not disqualify him for higher positions (or, apparently, for re-election in his district). The lobbying thing is worse because he has his family members lobbying him on the behalf of contractors. And he didn't disqualify himself from the appropriations committee when those contracts can up for review. That's also not illegal, but it's not like a sting operation, he knew his brother was lobbying for them.

Anyway, I'll repeat myself... I wish Pelosi had found a compromise candidate. Steny is waaaay to close to the DLC and the DLC is PNAC (our party's version of PNAC). I don't think we should let the DLC anywhere close to the reigns of power and I resent the DLC (and Rahm) taking credit for the election results. Plus, the DLC wants to keep us in Iraq and possibly wants to get involved in a conflict with Iran. I'd rather spend money on making us energy independent and disengage from the ME. From the days of the Shah of Iran, we have made mistake after mistake, we have backed dictator after dictator, and always because we wanted the oil. It's no wonder the Arabs hate us. It's time we quit acting all imperial.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. It Would Be Wise For Hoyer And Murtha To Withdraw Their Nomination

eom

[rinsd]

7. No old LIES rehashed is swiftboating

We have here a Congressman with a questionable ethical past.

Who has howled when there has been talk of earmark elimination.

Who is now up for a major leadership position in the party after an election that swung partly on corruption in the other party.

Who basically is calling in his chits with the Speaker.

That's not swiftboating. That's called vigilance.

[patrice]

4. There are many people to whom this will seem SOP for Congress.

[Stand and Fight]

9. Right... Politics.

That is the way it has been done in this country for years, and it is not only this country, it is the world over. There is an old saying in Latin, "Quid pro quo." This for that...

[Stand and Fight]

6. Rather this is true or not.... There is a statute of limitations for a reason.

If there was any real proof of criminal conduct by Murtha, why is it that in all this time nothing has come out about this until now? How is it that in the richly portrayed news stories of Republican cooperation before the last election and up to the present that this story never made headlines? I'll tell you why... Because there is nothing to it.

I really think that the Democratic Party could stand to learn a bit from Ronald Reagan. As much as it pains me to say it, there is some wisdom in not speaking ill of any party member publicly.

[rinsd]

12. How about KLA last year?

http://bootmurtha.com/LATimesLobbyist.htm

I apologize for the url source but this was the only place I saw the LA Times article for free.

[Stand and Fight]

17. And there is a reason you couldn't cite more sources...

I am sure you have grown familiar with the term -- especially on DU -- that a story "has legs." The fact that this article is from 2005, did not influence Murtha's reelection, and has not been followed up on, should give you an idea as to its strength and validity.

[rinsd]

19. LOL.

I am in disbelief that DUers hold such a hatred for the DLC that they are willing to rationalize away very real concerns of ethical problems for Democrat (that is very much out of sync with DU's general issue positions except for the Iraq War) in line for a leadership position.

On edit: Here is Murtha's "we don't need no stinkin ethics" pledge

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2616200&mesg_id=2616200

[Stand and Fight]

33. When did I say anything about the DLC?

For that matter, when have I ever even come close to espousing a hatred or dislike of the DLC? It would be prudent if you were to at least try to ascertain why someone may be saying something rather than assuming that all DUers can be placed into a nice little subgroup.

For your information, I support Stney Hoyer for the position Murtha is seeking. If you bothered to NOT jump to conclusions, you would have asked me that rather than assuming anything.

ON EDIT: I simply do not believe that there is anything to these allegations regarding Murtha based on my research. Period. And MSNBC seems to have debunked them as well. I am not going to jump to judgment. I will only pass judgment once there is SOLID proof -- be the accused Democrat or Republican. There is no solid proof against Murtha.

[w4rma]

44. The thing is that the DLC have no problem with smearing Democrats. This is a DLC power play, imho.nt

[David Zephyr]

10. Trumad, Tip O'Neill did not control the FBI. He wasn't even indicted.

As Gertrude Stein said, "there's no there there".

I will be happy with either of the two fellows seeking the majority leader's position.

Murtha is a decorated war hero. He is a great guy and I hope that you are not doing this here because of his stand against Bush's Civil War in Iraq.

[troublemaker]

16. He was an unindicted co-conspirator. That isn't "no there there"

If Scooter Libby is aquitted I'll be interested to see how many at DU take that as proof that he did nothing wrong.

The standard for being free to walk the streets is not the same as the standard to be House majority leader. (Or Vice Presidental chief of staff.)

[David Zephyr]

20. Libby was indicted and charged with a crime.

Why are you trying to smear a good man by insinuating that Libby's current legal situation is parity with that of Murtha's.

The OP here suggests that Tip O'Neil somehow prevented even the FBI from charging Murtha with anything.

Shame on you.

[WI_DEM]

11. If this is true and I say "if" it's amazing he survived 26 years

and 13 elections.

[Robbien]

13. Now days that is what is called K Street lobbying n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I Thought We Were The Good Guys Who Were Supposed To Change The Culture

or at least pretend we are...

[Goblinmonger]

21. Holy Crap

You mean to tell me that almost 30 years ago there was a scandle and that Murtha didn't do anything wrong and wasn't even charged for a crime but now that he is possibly going to be the majority leader in the house we should look at this 54 minute tape that never led to his :boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring:

Sorry, I put myself to sleep telling a really boring and useless story.

[trumad]

22. I can't believe how blind some are....

He was clearly trying to move the money to his friends and if the investigation would not have been halted, they would have busted his ass for doing it.

[Goblinmonger]

23. THIRTY YEARS AGO

Can we please let go of it now? Please? Disco is dead, too. Do you still put on your white polyester shirt with the ridiculously wide collar and go out strutting down the street?

[rinsd]

24. 1 year ago it was his brother's lobbying firm

And Murtha just issued a statement blasting the new ethics rules drafted by the Democrat leadership.

Fuck him.

[Goblinmonger]

26. Then at least that is something

that wasn't over 30 years ago. Was Murtha implicated in that? Were charges filed?

And he IS voting for the new ethics rules, right? He said he'll support it if it is what the leadership/Nancy wants, right? So what's the BFD? He doesn't like it but he'll make sure it becomes law. What a fucking bastard he is.

[rinsd]

28. That's not the majority leader I want

Give him a chairmanship somewhere else.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I Thought We Were Above Politics As Usual

Guess not...

[Orsino]

48. Murtha dates from the Ford Administration.

How much more usual can we get?

[Qutzupalotl]

29. Maybe not.

Check this out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2969395

[rinsd]

30. I will have to await further clarification

I have seen 3 versions now.

One has him 100% in support

Another has him saying there weren't necessary but that he would support Pelosi.

[w4rma]

45. The quote he originally said (which was sourced by 3 Blue Dogs) was that he would do it

to if "Nancy" wanted it done. His clarification was that he doesn't like the bill but if it will help the ethics of the house then he'll help push it.

[rinsd]

46. Thanks

[Dhalgren]

25. So Nancy Pelosi is either corrupt, stupid or politically naive, in

which case she should not be Speaker. So who would you support for Speaker? Hoyer? I support Pelosi. If she wants Murtha, then she should have Murtha. Right now the Party needs unity. We have bitched for years that we need a strong, liberal leader; well, Pelosi is that. But her judgment is not respected? This is the problem with this Party, we can't act in unison, even when our country and our freedoms depend upon it. Give it all to the DLC, and then let the Republicans win it all back. Shit...

[SoCalDem]

32. Look.. "Most" politicians are "on the take" to some degree

It's HOW they get where they are.. It's inherent ..

Until real campaign finance happens, it will ALWAYS be the case.

Imagine yourself a congressperson/senator.. You HAVE to have LOTS of money to keep your office.. Where to you get the money??

Anywhere you can..

The likelihood of being "found out" is slim, since the people who would investigate you are probably doing the same thing..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Evil Doesn't Appear With Precedent...

That's the Nixon defense...Everybody else did it...

[SoCalDem]

39. Don't get me wrong.. It's NOT right..but

Until we get real campaign finance, it's the way the system works..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. The Problem With Pork Barrel Politics Is You Are Robbing Peter To Pay Paul

Someone's bridge to nowhere means an inner city park doesn't get new restrooms...

[SoCalDem]

41. Precisely why real campaign reform has to happen

and why I have always been in favor of term limits..

If this country were run like a family runs its budget, we would be rolling in dough :)

First things first...and ONLY after those are handled, do we even consider the "other stuff"..

With a country of 300 million people, you cannot tell me that the 435+100+2 are the only ones capable of handling things..

Stale ideas and rank ideology are driving us over a cliff..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. My "Stupid" GOPU Congressman Constantly Sends Me Letters About What He's Doing For (My) (Our)

District.


My vote is not for sale.

[LSK]

35. and if you skip over the 1st 15 min

You miss the part about how he CLEARLY wants to help his DISTRICT.

[The Gunslinger]

47. WOW he was a hero a couple of months ago......

Whats the matter with the Democrats. I can now say that the Democrats are firmly planted in the right. There is no left anynmore. After going out on a limb for the troops in Iraq, he is being dragged throught the mud for something that happened 26 years ago, and it never amounted to anything. And the thing that makes me want to puke is that those Dragging him throught the mud now are the DEMOCRATS. WTF!!!!!! Hannity tried to throw this on him a couple of months ago and it didn't stick. Between this, the pledge to let the Bush Administration slide for war crimes, the attempt to run Dean out and the sudden Leiberman love, I have no idea where the Democratic party is going, and Im not liking it.

[sandnsea]

37. Trumad - anti-war OR Steny Hoyer

Murtha or DLC Lobbyists. That's the choice here.

How can we keep buying into these media attacks, time after time after time. This is orchestrated and it's not just Rove that knows how to orchestrate them.

Gads. I just want to rip my hair out. We can worry about cleaning up the appropriations process AFTER we keep the DLC slime from getting a leadership position.

[lies and propaganda]

43. i thouht that video was pretty damning myself

and very unexpected.