When Carville attacks Dean, he attacks us all.

[Renew Deal]

When Carville attacks Dean, he attacks all of us that have invested in the party's reformation. This is the most offensive and disturbing part of Carville's attack for me. Democratic committee members at all levels selected Dean to be our leader. He offered a plan and we bought into it. The majority of Democrats including me have committed to and invested in the DNC to execute Dean's plan until 2008. So when political mercenaries like Carville attack Dean and others in the party, they attack and distract us all. Our job now is to expand our majorities and get a Democrat elected president. Howard Dean and the DNC will lead this effort and we will execute the plan.

Each Democratic committee has a function. The DSCC works to get Senators elected. The DCCC works to get House members elected. The DLCC is a centralized organization working on local elections. Individual state committees work to get Democrats elected on the state level. The county or central committees manage local and usually all races.

The job of the DNC is to organize the party and get a Democratic president elected. Dean's plan is to invest in all state's to give us a fighting chance in most of them. His job is not to get congressmen elected. It's to build the infrastructure that gets congressmen and everyone else elected. And through the 50 State Strategy and other plans Dean has been successful thus-far.

So when mercenaries such as Carville attack and distract, focus on the job ahead and follow Dean's lead.

[FernBell]

1. Utter nonsense

[Renew Deal]

2. There is no way you could have read this that fast

So are you describing your post or something else?

[FernBell]

4. Oh, I read it alright, and here's your problem

Your post is nothing but knee-jerk ideological rigidity. You have ridiculusly decided that James Carville is somehow the enemy of the Democratic Party. He's hardly even had the chance made a post-election statement and you're already declaring the architect of Clinton's ascendance to be your ENEMY.

Take a breath and get over yourself.

[PassingFair]

8. Take a minute and watch his little love fest with

Bay Buchanan on Wolf Blitzer's show and get back to us.

[Renew Deal]

11. Carville has mad himself the enemy of the Democratic party.

And he deserves to be treated that way. Comparing Dean to Rumsfeld is about as low as you can go. Carville was no architect. He's a hanger on who picked the right horse 14 years ago. He's also a paid consultant looking for a paycheck. And if you follow the money, it's going to come from Hillary this time.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

13. ROFLMAO!!! Now this is rich.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Mary, is that you? MKJ

[Buzz Clik]

18. Thank you, thank you! This needs to be said often and loudly!!!

[cali]

24. LOL

like proof of Carville's perfidy hasn't been plastered all over DU. Yeah, sure he's hardly had the chance to make a post-election statement, that's why he's been all over the MSM smearing Dean. And if he's not carrying water for the Clintons, how come neither of them has repudiated his disgusting statements calling for Dean to be ousted and comparing him to Rumsfeld.

Sheesh, could you be any more divorced from reality?

[Buzz Clik]

30. The point is NOT that Carville's comments were unnecessarily harsh.

The point is the totally over-the-top reaction to them. Carville is not the enemy. You simply don't like his opinion. PERIOD!!!

[cali]

33. No. I simply think this is a coordinated effort

to kick Dean out of the chairmanship and marginalize the grass/netroots. Really, it's that simple.

[dogday]

38. I agree with you cali

this is a coordinated effort.......

[SmokingJacket]

66. You are right. nt

[Buzz Clik]

74. Ok. And why would they want to do this?

Carville said he doesn't want Dean out, he wants the approach to change.

[helderheid]

77. that horrid approach that got us back in the majority in both houses for the 1st time in 12 years?

THAT approach?

[wicket]

78. LOL

You're killing me here!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[helderheid]

84. I aim to please

:hi:

[Buzz Clik]

89. That's clever, but it has nothing to do with my question.

cali stated that Carville is leading a coordinated effort to kick out Dean and marginalize the grassroots and netroots. My question is, for the same reason you just stated, why would Carville lead a coordinated effort to abandon part of the strategy that recaptured the Senate and House?

We're all quick to vilify Carville, but I have not seen anyone try to rationally analyze his motivations. He's been called a traitor, insane, and many other insults. But the guy is not some isolated crackpot. He must have some logic behind his comments. Anyone care to take a deep breath and try to figure it out? We might learn something important.

[helderheid]

97. OK, why don't you explain what part of the strategy does he want to change and why?

WHY?

[Buzz Clik]

100. Wait. You're blasting Carville, but you don't know why?

That's rich.

My role in this argument is not to educate the seething, angry masses who want Carville's head for the sin of expressing an opinion.

[helderheid]

102. I'm blasting Carville for blasting Dean, who is the best DNC chair we've ever had.

I want to know why Carville would do that.

[Buzz Clik]

114. I'd like to know why Carville did it, too. But I won't invent reasons.

You've injected yourself into a discussion with a single objective (protect Dean) and no real interest in follow up on the context of the argument.

So, I'll grant you your rabid loyalty to Dean, and let it go at that.

[helderheid]

120. No real interest in follow up on the context of the argument? What the hell?

I am responding to you and trying to pick apart his motivation for slamming the best DNC chair we've had who managed to pull off an election which resulted in the Democrats taking back control of BOTH houses. What the hell are you talking about I have no interest in follow up on the context of the argument? That's all I'm doing!

[Name removed]

125. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WyLoochka]

166. Because our having some of the power

means we will use it. That threatens his way of making a living which is - siphoning off big chunks of money the corpos "donate" to campaigns he and his slimy consultant buddies work for.

He and his DC buddies do not want to get corpo lucre out of campaigns. Most of the net/grass roots do, for the obvious reason that the corpos write and muscle through - pro-corpo, anti-people legislation.

That is why he wants to spoil the success we have had with the leadership of Dr Dean and activism of the net/grass roots. He hates it that Dean tells the people, "You have the power." He likes the old days when we didn't exercise that power.

That's why.

[CarbonDate]

157. Where are you reading that?

Asked whether Dean should be dumped by the party, Carville replied, "In a word, do I think? Yes." He added, "I think he should be held accountable … I would describe his leadership as Rumsfeldian in its competence."

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061116/NEWS/611160345/1002/NEWS01

Carville has quite explicitly said he wants Dean out.

[Buzz Clik]

164. I didn't have to read it. I heard Carville say it himself. You can, too.

Blizter "You've lost confidence -- I don't know if you ever had much confidence in Howard Dean, but what do you want? Do you want him to step down? You want somebody else to be chairman of the Party?"

Carville: "I want a change in culture. If it's him, if he stays, fine."

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TSR-CarvillegoesafterDean.wmv (1:40 into the video) NOTE: you'll have to copy the URL into your browser. A direct link will not work.

[helderheid]

75. you called it.

[Renew Deal]

41. The point is Carville's comments are BOTH unnecessary AND harsh.

What good does it do to have a public fight with Dean? Carville knows how to contact the DNC. This could be handled privately if it was honest. It's not honest.

[geiger]

122. the point is that they tried privately, to no avail

[Renew Deal]

147. So what?

Dean is the boss. He makes the decision. This is just bad form.

[grizmaster]

72. Carville has been wrong the last 3 election cycles

I'll give him credit for aiding Clinton's rise, but these are very different times and I'll take the proven success of Dean or the proven failure of Carville.

[Buzz Clik]

90. You're blaming Carville for the losses in 2000, 2002, and 2004?

LOL!

[jsamuel]

92. He's sure ready and willing to blame everyone else

[grizmaster]

96. Not blaming

just pointing out that his analysis was dead wrong. Which also makes his opinion about Dean's huge success questionable

[Renew Deal]

148. And 1994

Don't want to forget that one.

[geiger]

104. he's been out of the picture, abroad, taking care of family, doing tele, making a movie

and probably got pulled in only because our Party had gotten so STUPID so fast again already. He's deliberately tried for years not to shoot his mouth off. I like Dean, but he's probably gotten more bad advice than good. It's hard to see thru it sometimes, esp., when above all, you are a person, like I believe Dean is, to stay grounded in reality. It's a frieking hard job. But, don't shoot the messenger now, esp when we have to look forward to the next cycle. It is going to be brutal. Need a reality check-up.

[Renew Deal]

149. huh?

The party was so stupid that it invested in the entire infrastructure, built a new voter database, won elections on every level and didn't lose a single seat in congress. That's the kind of stupidity we need to squash.

[Beelzebud]

79. What cave have you been sleeping in since the election happened?

[blm]

83. Clinton won in 92 because Democrats in Congress investigated Bush1 his ENTIRE TERM

and bad headlines were constant thanks to IranContra, BCCI, illegal wars in Central America and Iraqgate.

Public trust with Bush was broken by the time the conventions happened.

Clinton also had 9 hours of primetime to introduce himself. Kerry was given just 3 hrs by the networks with 1 of those hours again going to Clinton and 1hr going to Edwards.

[WyLoochka]

167. and the "advice" of the

carville status quo accomodation advocating types in DC to not "bash Bush."

The Repukes proceeded to turn whatever small gains we had from our be-nice convention around almost immediately by bashing Kerry and every thing associated with any and all Democrats.

Carville and his buddies give lousy advice. The faster their influence wanes, the better off we will be.

[madfloridian]

141. He is.

Carville is showing himself to be the enemy, perhaps more will come. He undermined Kerry, perhaps even worse than undermine.

There is no need for him to go after any of our Democrats like this.

To do it right after we won in a big way says that Carville is fearful of his future as a gravy train strategist.

[Jim Sagle]

144. Chickenshit bullshit.

[LittleClarkie]

158. Was it Carville, or the fact that Clinton was the candidtate?

I guess we'll see if and when he's brought on to Hillary's staff whether or not his methods would work now.

I wonder if he, like Bill, would have asked out last candidate to come out against gay marriage just to get votes. And if I recall correctly, both Carville and Clinton thought that the economy stupid should have been more emphasized in 2004, when the only time Kerry gained ground was when he talked foreign policy and Iraq.

I do like the idea of rapid response, however. If he had something to do with that, then kudos. That was a very good aspect of the Clinton campaign.

Nevertheless, Carville is being a divisive voice at exactly the wrong time. He's acting like a pouting child because the Dems did something right and he wasn't involved. He's the one who needs to get over himself.

[WyLoochka]

165. He was way over rated

as to his part in the very brief "Clinton ascendance." Remember how fast that "ascendance" was turned into the long painful descendance of Clinton and all other Democrats, with the Repuke pit bulls attacking him and chewing on him, and us, constantly?

Carville contributed nothing - zilch - to help stop, let alone reverse, the Repukes during that time. He even helped legitimize them by marrying one of their leading pit bulls!

And he has made plenty of "post election" statements. That is why we are having all this discussion about his vileness and stupidity as was revealed by those statements.

He is a pathetic, vapid anachronism. He wants to unwind the progress we have made to restore the way it was in the "old days" when "the party chair selection was a rigged deal figured out in a smoke-filled back room" (his words - not mine).

Seems like he made the first move to "enemy" territory. He did it long ago. Democrats mostly ignored it. His recent statements clearly setting himself apart as a destrutive "enemy" of what we have accomplished are the final straw.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. LOL, I was planning on a K & R for your succint summation. FernBell's post

and your response just added the special "Carville apologist lurker" cache! MKJ

edited to add..

Hey FernBell...:kick: ! MKJ

[FernBell]

10. Rove & Shrub will absolutely love how willing you are to attack your own

[Renew Deal]

14. Talk about hypocrisy

Do you think before you type?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

20. And you the same.

:shrug:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. .

LOLOL, I'll bet you weren't expecting to be called georgie's best buddy!

FB's next rational debating point will be:

"Bleachers7 and bushie, sitting in a tree...."

This is the funniest thread I've read this morning, :rofl: MKJ

[Renew Deal]

29. I've been called worse here

and other places. This is more irrational than I am used to be whatever.

[PassingFair]

21. Carville is the one attacking democrats

Murtha and Dean are the democrats under attack

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

22. Calm down, Mary. At least he's only unfaithful to his party.

:eyes: :rofl: MKJ

[bigtree]

25. this is inspiring

name-calling. how very inspiring.

like a clique in a junior high school cafeteria

[Buzz Clik]

31. no shit.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

34. LOL, it's irresistable for me, when dealing with a Carville apologist.

All right, time to elevate the discussion....

One's consideration of those statements, which have been recently uttered by Mr. James Carville, would indicate a diametrical opposition to the reality which is represented by the Democratic wins last week.

Those statements, in fact, appear to reflect Mr. Carville's desire for recognition over principles. MKJ

[bigtree]

48. so, he was wrong on his assessment. big deal. happens after every election.

The rest of Carville's inflammatory statements were delivered to us by the freeper Adam Nagourney in a effort to divide our party after the election. We ALL did our part in the win. Some factions, competing with others for resources were frustrated. They lashed out. It happens. What has occurred this time, however, is a hyperventilated, public exchange which doesn't reflect the attitudes of party as a whole who is thrilled to have regained power. How about we wait until the NEXT election to argue this all out? Hopefully next time these folks can keep their traps shut in public and settle these tiffs in private, away from those exploiters who are intent on dividing us.

[BootinUp]

67. Can I borrow your crystal ball sometime?

I mean since you know that no other races could have been won, I could make some money with that ability.

[Jackpine Radical]

40. Doesn't Carville have a street to walk somewhere?

Maybe a lamp post to lean against while he's refreshing his lipstick?

[me b zola]

64. You have a booger on your nose

[Generic Other]

70. Then he must adore the hell out of Carville

Good grief. He's had to climb pretty far up Mary Matlin's ass to get the intestinal fortitude to attack Dean and by extension the entire left wing of the Democratic party. The shit's still clinging to his ugly bald head.

[cali]

35. More like drinks before she types. n/t

[Marnieworld]

68. you realize of course that this is the very thing that carville did

and the op was criticizing. Sorry. Conyers agrees.

[Cha]

71. rove and fuckhead love carville

..but then you knew that.

[Norquist Nemesis]

86. Oh, the pure irony!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[PassingFair]

5. ?

Poppycock!

Such an erudite response!

I work hard at a county level.

I am on committees.

I lobbied and worked hard to get committee chairs to vote for Dean.

Carville's attack IS an attack on the rank and file.

[Buzz Clik]

15. I agree.

This frenzy has been generated over a comment -- without context -- made in a very short article covered in one newspaper.

The insanity generated here at DU over this incident is juvenile.

I support Dean, and Carville's comment (if he actually said it) was unfortunate. But the reaction generated is ridiculous and reminiscent of the furor created by John Kerry's comment about education/Iraq.

[PassingFair]

Look at the crooks & liars take, buzz

Gollum SPEAKS!

Bay Buchanan NODS!

[Buzz Clik]

28. Good. Thank you. His comments were not misrepresented here.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TSR-CarvillegoesafterDean.wmv

His opinion is harsh and I don't agree with it. However, it's just an opinion about Howard Dean, the DNC, and their approach to supporting individual candidates.

This doesn't rise to the point of calling him a traitor, the enemy, etc.

(By the way, have you noticed the ceaseless attacks on Rahm Emanuel here at DU? I don't get that either.)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

39. Just because someone has a "D" after their name does not mean they

have carte blanche to promote themselves over the interests of the Democratic party or the country.

The R's have demonstrated that walking in strict lockstep can work for a while, but it allows for unbelievable power grubbing and greed, with accountability completely lacking.

MKJ

[Buzz Clik]

76. Granted. And open dissent doesn't make you an enemy of the state.

[Renew Deal]

150. No, but personal attacks on the chairman does.

Rumsfeldian? That's an insult.

[robbedvoter]

73. Carville of all people should know the effect of words - makes a nice living of it

Just like Donna Brazille who was blackberrying with Rove and blaming Gore for the 2000 steal, of Clark's PR guy who post campaign called him (coincidentally,also to Adam Nagourney) "an empty vessel" - then apologized to the base for "misuse of words".
And therein lies the rub: these people are paid the big bucks to find the right words. They sell words. They cannot plead "I misspoke"

[acmavm]

3. Carville is an opportunist. What else do you expect?

[geiger]

6. What is all this

I am hearing about Carville "attacking Dean?" I like both of them, for their own strengths and accomplishments. I have read stuff on DU lately that some think Carville is a spy for Rs. Anyone who thinks that knows nothing about his background, the way he group as a youngster or in politics. I agree with the comment "utter nonsense," but Im not sure which nonsense is being referred to.

Why do we fall into this trap of attacking one of our own. The ink from the election isnt even dry right now.

[PassingFair]

12. See for yourself:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/15/carville-goes-after-dean/

He's NUTS.

[bigtree]

43. he took the view that more money should have been spent on the candidates

he felt that money was withheld by the DNC.

That may or may not prove true, but, it was a legitimate criticism, not just a slam on Dean. Carville was arguing for less central control of the DNC funds. I don't have any way of knowing how the money gets spent, or if Carville has a case, but he says that if Dean makes the changes he wants, Dean is fine by him.

That's what I got out of that exchange. I think folks read way too much into it.

Exactly what is 'nuts' about what he said? Not what is wrong - I can accept that he's wrong on the facts in this one exchange, I dn't know - but, what's so nuts about disagreeing on where funds need to be spent? Don't these conflicts occur in every campaign?

Is there some other exchange with Carville that I'm missing? I just don't see the broadside attack on Dean that folks are complaining about. He seems to be just talking about allocations of funds.

I agree with this statement by Carville:

CARVILLE: I want a change of culture. I — of culture.

I want the change — and, if it's him, if he stays, fine. I want him

to say, we are not going to be talking about parties and state chairmen.

We're going to talk about candidates. We're going to let these good

people know, when they come out and run under the Democratic line, that

we are going to do everything we can to fund them, to stand by them, to

honor them . . ."


The rest is hyperventilated politics from a political operative. If Carville ever becomes an actual member of our party leadership, that's when I'll start taking his comments personally. But he's throwing stones from the outside. He's entitled to his opinion, even if it's eventually proven wrong.

[Morgana LaFey]

123. Myopic

The problem is his "outside" is pretty damn "inside" since he, as bigwig high mucky-muck DLC consultant, has a LOT of persuasive say in the party and esp. among those very Dem leaders.

[WyLoochka]

169. we are not going to be talking about parties and state chairmen

I disagree vehemently. That is the way we lost so much ground. In the Clinton years the Dem Party in many states shriveled up and disappeared. State Legislatures and Governorships were taken over by Repukes.

I lived through that in Arizona. For two frigging years leading up to the 2000 campaign, I faxed a picture of Jon Kyl to both my state Dem Party Hdqtrs, as well as the DSCC, once a month, every month. Over his face I wrote "What are you doing to find someone to run against this extremist?"

No one ever responded and Kyl ran unopposed.

So much for changing the "culture." They didn't even recruit candidates in many places in the first place! They threw in the towel without even contesting! In many places there was no support out there from anyone. A party with an operating infrastructure in the states and with effective state chairpersons and local committees is a big factor is encouraging candidates to step-up and run.

What a clueless ass Carville is. Now he says he supports a "cult" of candidates and from his own words seems to be against state parties, chairpersons and infrastructure. Hey, James, there can be no "cult" for candidates when there aren't any candidates!

[geiger]

52. What is nuts about insisting we spend all of our money?

I can't stand it when I find out, after people have contributed and worked so hard, that a candidate hasn't spent all his money. That happened with the opportunist Tim Hagan when he ran for Governor of Ohio the last time around. It made it look like the left over money was the only reason he ran to begin with. He had gotten his sorry two-faced butt kicked out of the cuyahoga County Commissioners Office and had no other job to go to.

I think Dean should address why all the money wasn't spent. Maybe he goofed up simply by letting someone else worry about the money. I'll do anything in a political campaign except manage the money. It's a thankless job.

[Morgana LaFey]

124. Nobody complained the money wasn't spent

It was HOW the money was spent that Carville and Emmanuel are complaining about. In short: THEY wanted it; Dean used it for what it was raised for and what he intended and promised to use it for all along, the 50-state strategy that made us competitive in places we haven't been competitive for decades when the shit hit the fan and people were fed up to here with Republicans of every stripe.

Carville and Emmanuel don't want Dean to have ANY credit; they want it all. They also don't want Dean's reputation any further enhanced among the people since a real and genuine grassroots party built and operating from the ground up (you know, aka: DEMOCRACY) is anatehma to The Powers That Be in Washington.

[geiger]

126. that just isnt true I am not a fan at all of Emmanuel, he screwed over

one of my candidates, but that just isn't what is going on here

[Morgana LaFey]

133. then find a link -- 'cause I've been following this and yours is

the first I've heard of "not spending ALL of the money." It's about WHERE it was spent, not how much.

In fact, the DNC went into a bit of debt toward the end of the election cycle.

[geiger]

162. actually, I think it was a line of available credit, so you probably havent

missed anything. I like Dean, but I think jumping on Carville, as if he is an enemy combatant, as some are doing, is wrong.

[WyLoochka]

170. About the money

Listen to what even your boy admits. The DNC had a $10 mill line of credit - not donated money in hand. They borrowed $4 mill for candidate support and spent it on candidate support.

Had we borrowed $10 mill and not won, Carville and his cronies would be howling about Dean driving the party into debt and hog tying it's potential to win in '08!

But that's not the case - we won without going into massive debt thus making it possible to continue our roll and build toward even more success in '08.

It's painfully obvious that Carville thinks the building of state parties is a threat to him and the other DC power addicts who participate in his so-called profession. A new class of effective movers and shakers coming from the states is not what he wants to see happen. But it is exactly the way to build our party.

It is not just elected politicians who need to be dumped in great numbers every now and then - it's their sycophant, power addicted consultants who need to be turned out too.

Carville is lashing out like a cornered animal because if Dean continues to build the party his days of influence over it are finished. Then he'll have to live on his restaurant income alone. Oh the horror!

[Renew Deal]

23. Here you go

"I would describe his leadership as Rumsfeldian in its incompetence," one strategist, James Carville, said.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/15/news/dems.php

[bigtree]

45. Why would ANYONE take a column by freeper Adam Nagourney as truth?

The left bit down hard on this winger's scheme to divide our party before and after our victory.

[Renew Deal]

47. Pick any article you want.

I was just sourcing the quote. Don't act like Carville didn't say it.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=rumsfeldian

[bigtree]

51. He thinks we should have kicked MORE republican ass. Sue him.

I'm satisfied with the job Dean did, giddy over it even. He's a real hero for our party, and our country.

Carville is a political operative with little or no influence on the decisions within the party leadership. If he wants the job he should apply for it. But. it's just nonsense to let folks divide us over the strategizing nonsense that occurs after elections. The bloodletting isn't new, it's just been amplified, I think, beyond any reasonable measure of relevance. Exactly what is the motive for elevating Carville to some role akin to our own leadership. He's just another political fool running his mouth who probably should be ignored.

[Renew Deal]

151. Saying that more money should be spent is a fair criticism.

Most of the argument here hasn't been that. The argument is over the viciousness of the comments. The most outstanding is the "Rumsfeldian in his incompetence" comment. Carville is still unfortunately influential, so when a hit man like him speaks, people listen.

[WyLoochka]

171. The teevee pundits

elevate Carville. We didn't put this pathetic, clueless has-been on CNN - Blitzer did.

If we don't protest loudly that he doesn't speak for us and that we disagee with him profoundly on some of the most important fundamentals of party building for '08 and beyond, the "conventional wisdom" will be that he does speak for us.

[geiger]

53. Dean needs to address the criticism

[bigtree]

54. he has

by asserting his own strategy. He doesn't need to answer to fringe political operatives like Carville.

[geiger]

57. If you think Carville is "fringe," you have no idea what you are talking about

Are you over 21?

[bigtree]

60. wow, character attack

What is Carville anyway? Has he ever been accountable to anyone for anything?

[oc2002]

112. what criticism, that Carvelle is insane?

the only reason we are even talking about that has been is because the corporate media loves him.

[geiger]

119. and that is a reason to distrust him?!!!!!

we need more media-savvy and more people with balls who are willing to take on the right-wing media establishment. Al Franken is the only one that seems to be making headway on the day-to-day, practical level. What the fuck are you talking about.

[Lars39]

94. Here's some of his background:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2710072

[H2O Man]

9. I agree.

While I have watched and agreed with some of what Carville has said in the past, I've always felt that he belonged to a very different part of the democratic party than I do. Part of it is his wife; I'm not sure how a person married to one of Dick Cheney's closest associates can really relate to the grass roots. I am far more impressed with Dean. I think that he is sincere in his attempts to help the middle class and poor. I think Dean is actually interested in our opinions.

[joefree1]

17. I'm so disappointed in James

The Raging Cajun has become the Whining Inside the Beltway DINO. His HBO series was so telling.

Say good night James.



on edit: James, we little people are better then just potential buyers of your books.

[bigtree]

19. who the fuck is Carville?

just a poltical operative getting much too much ink

[HereSince1628]

27. Carville is the mouthpiece of the Clinton machine.

For good or ill I think that's just about undeniable.

And the media give him a microphone because they believe that is true.

[Buzz Clik]

32. Carville is a media darling because of his entertainment value and connections.

And he drives people everywhere totally insane. He's Howard Cosell without the rug and a Southern drawl.

[PassingFair]

37. "Darling" is hardly the word I'D use....n/t

[Buzz Clik]

91. You didn't use it, I did. And you offer nothing as an alternative.

So, what's your point?

[earth mom]

36. Kick Carvilles A$$ to the curb!

:grr:

[OHdem10]

42. Carville and DLCers always tout

Bill Clinton as their winning strategy.

Bill Clinton was such a darned good candidate,
the absolutley worst consultant could have
won that election.

For Carville to say he does not want any money
to state parties, should give all Dems pause.

[Renew Deal]

46. I agree

The DNC is building the party to win a presidential election. That's their job. And Carville should know better than to publicly attack someone over something like this. That's why this is a hit job and not honest criticism.

[geiger]

69. After struggling behind the scenes, it sounds like, to get him to spend the money

we cant afford that next time around. it's bunker mentality, as much as I respect Dean and want him to remain Chair. His genius is in other areas. He needs to take this input seriously, and now there's a chance to be circumspect and do that.

[Morgana LaFey]

127. Bullshit

Utter bullshit.

"it sounds like" is the smartest thing you said -- all the rest was rubbish. It DOESN'T sound like that to me, or to anyone else I've seen either.

The real bunker mentality was on the part of the DLC consultants and Establishment Dems -- Emmanuel, Schumer, Carville. ThEY're the ones who wanted to hide in their bunkers and spend money ONLY on those races they identified. They're the ones who were afraid to expand their horizons into all 50 states. THEY're the ones who don't quite get it that you have to show up to be counted.

Pffffft.

Dean did everything just right. And there are races we won because of him and his 50-state strategy, no thanks to Schumer and Emmanuel. In fact, here's an interesting discussion: Poll results in! Dean waxed Rahm 36-4.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2957988

[geiger]

130. I wont hide my disdain for Rahm, but, still, spend the money

[Renew Deal]

154. The money is being spent

On the DNC's game plan. So far so good.

[Renew Deal]

153. That is the way I see it as well.

:thumbsup:

[Renew Deal]

152. That's incorrect

Like I said originally, it is not the job of the DNC to hold up the DCCC or DSCC. The job of the DNC is to organize the party and get a president elected. He's got a plan and he is working it. It's not his job to please DC consultants.

[geiger]

163. I like Dean. You have a point, but you insist on missing mine. Good luck.

[WyLoochka]

172. There WAS NO MONEY

Carville is talking about the BORROWING of money. He is an advocate of starting off toward '08 from a position of being in the hole saddled with massive debt!

If he felt so strongly another $6 mill was needed and that these 10 or so candidates would have won with it, why didn't he and a few of his cohorts borrow the money for them? Why didn't he tap Hill for a few mill? She's sitting on a massive pile of dough.

Carville does not want strong state parties, that is what this is about. They are a threat to him, because from them will arise people far more adept and astute then he has been for 14 long long long agonizing years.

[Boo Boo]

44. He certainly is attacking those of us that support the 50 State Strategy. /nt

[txindy]

49. Yes, we're part of a "cult," dontchaknow? How dare we include all 50 states?!

Oh, the humanity! We have the nerve to believe ALL Americans should be part of the election process, not just the DLC's special targets. **GASP!**

:rofl: Nice try, JimmyBoy.

[survivor999]

50. Carvillian idiocy.

[dogman]

55. Carville needed money to go to his candidates.

That way they could pay him. He isn't the first or only campaign manager to take this route. They do this at all levels. They demand the Party orgs. contribute more so their campaign can do the necessary campaigning. On the top of the list is pay the manager his fee. On the other hand, while a support the 50 state strategy in principle, a lot of that money does not reach the lower levels. We need campaign financing reform above all.

[BootinUp]

58. .

good points.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

140. Jim4Wes, hello and I agree that those are good points.

We were bound to agree at some point...:toast: MKJ

[geiger]

62. oh, please, Dems want a minimum wage but now we're not supposed to pay people

goofiness

[bigtree]

63. what did Dean's manager Trippi need all of that cash for? Millions

of dollars in campaign contributions to Dean went into his pocket. I think these operatives are overpaid and overrated.

[dogman]

87. Where did I say that?

Because a person spends more than they can afford, is it another person's responsibility to pay their bill? Now that's goofy.

[Hippo_Tron]

160. Carville doesn't consult domestically anymore

So I don't know who would be paying him.

[BootinUp]

56. Carville was just trying to motivate you lazy activists, lol.

Sorry, just a little humor for Thursday morning, I'm sure some will not think its funny.

[geiger]

59. Carville worked side by side with the activists

he told us that we make the difference on the ground. To suggest he doesn't appreciate the activists can only stem from ignorance or a deliberate attempt to mislead.

[BootinUp]

61. It was a joke. heard of those?

Geebus, I have been trying to defend Carville's right to speak his mind.

[geiger]

65. I get the joke; it's just not funny to me right now becoz people actually believe it

to be true. apologies, just entered the discussion.

[robbedvoter]

81. Dunno where "you" were huddled during those encouragements

I used to love Carville in the 90s. Then he made the torture statement on Crossfire. Then he dissed most of Dem candidates in the primaries (who were not Edwards). Haven't heard anything positive from him - and I am pretty tuned in - got messages from everyone from Steven King to even Joementum (for himself). None from Carville,

[geiger]

103. Carville got pulled into other nations' elections for awhile

and then I did actually witness him get pulled into Ohio Hackett's bid for Senate. That's when he told the netrooters and the people on the ground how important they were, in a very emotional plea. Then when Hackett pulled out, he supported Sherrod Brown with all his energy.

[robbedvoter]

80. On the bright side, Carville is a uniter (Jr style)

Whatever doubts I might have on DNC (election fraud related) are washed away now, and I am ready to defend Dean. And to the apologists: carville is acting as the enemy - he produced the first negative headlines for the dema after the victory. That's no mean feat. Had THAT been accidental as you try to sell it, he'd have stopped.
But he upped the rhetoric, with more effective words - such as "Rumsfeldian"
So, there's no doubt in my mind he is willing to inflict damage to the democrats. Like what some sort of..."enemy" would do.

[bigtree]

82. the difference?

Carville was arguing that Dean's approach let republicans gain more ground than they should have. I don't agree with him or think he should be running his mouth in public about it, but that's a far stretch to Carville being an 'enemy' of Democrats, unless you go for that secret republican shit because of his marriage to Matlin. Look at what he was saying. He thinks Dean was weak because, in Carville's view, he should have given over more money to those candidates Carville identified (probably centrists, judging from the left's reaction) to boost the margin of the win. He wanted to kick more republican ass and he was frustrated. He lashed out, stupidly. He has a big mouth. He isn't accountable to anyone except himself so he shoots off like this whenever he wants.

He may be injurious to Democrats because of his ignorant, blundering rhetoric, but, he's no 'enemy' of Democrats, no more than the candidates he represented were.

[The Count]

85. "Ignorant, blundering rhetoric"? His stock and trade! His money maker!

Destro and the Baroness

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=5841681&mesg_id=5841681
One more thing: Carville is right about more races having been winnable. But it was theft that changed that, not dean's mistakes. If anything, dean putting Mehlman on notice the day before the elections staved the flood

[diane in sf]

159. dean putting mehlman on notice

sorry if I'm off topic--can you give me a link to this? I've been tracking info on Repug election fraud since 2000, and I want to know more about this.
thanks!

[Straight Shooter]

132. You just nailed it. "He produced the first negative headlines after the victory."

I can't express how p.o.'d I am that the Dems barely took a breath of victory joy before Carville came stomping into the room to tell everyone his opinion of Dean. It's like one big long whine that can be heard all across grassroots America.

My money goes to the DNC, because of Dean. Carville is a dunce. AFAIC, kick him to the curb.

[jpwhite]

88. two guys, two different point of views

I don't take what James Carville said as an attack on me or the democratic party. He is a firey guy who wanted the dems to win every single seat in the House and Senate. He will work his brain like a supercomputer in order to think of ways to get dems elected. He is a good consultant who has had some success helping out with campaigns. That's why it seems like he doesn't have anyone holding him accountable. He still is a dem who wants other dems to win.

That said, I think this election showed that Dean's plan worked. No one initially thought that Virginia was a state that we could win. Dean thought (like I did) that we should contest every state. Why should we allow the republicans slide by with 10-15 states that they don't have to worry about. Then, Sen. Allen says the stupid "macaca" comment and that became a race. Our guy in VA had the resources in place because Dean helped him to get that. Now we have a new senator-elect from virginia.

I understand Carville's thinking. You try to focus on the races you think you can win. But, if we are going to make any significant change over the long run we have to invest in all 50 states. I'm originally from NY, but after I got out of the army the first time I made oklahoma my home. I claim oklahoma as my home state. I am not going to sit back and let the republicans dominate. By the way, our Democractic govenor just won re-election.

This isn't just about one election. It's about making a difference in how our country is run. James Carville means well but his strategy isn't going to help us in the long run. Give him time, and he will come around.

James
[e-mail]

[Buzz Clik]

93. Finally. Someone willing to think.

Thank you.

[jpwhite]

108. thank you for the kind words

Thank you buzz for the kind words. It is easier just to focus on 30 states. But like I said I don't think we would have gotten Virginia if we had done it Carville's way.

James Carville is a good guy and he means well. I wish people wouldn't attack him just because he married a conservative. I don't see eye to eye with my wife about everything, but I love her and that's all that matters.

He is a consultant and what he needs is a candidate to help. Let's get him hooked up with a guy who is going to run for a senate race in 08 and get him to work. He's a workaholic, and the best way to keep him happy is to keep him busy.

As for Dean, he needs to keep doing what he is doing; that is work hard to grow the grass roots movement growing. This will ensure that we keep a majority in congress for a long time and will help us to get the white house in 08.

James
[e-mail]

[Buzz Clik]

115. I agree with you right down the line. n/t

[Cha]

95. carville is a loose ugly

cannon and he's always had it out for Dean. He can take his comparing Dean to rummy and shove up his repuke lovin' ass.

[geiger]

107. I dont understand why u r so quick to write off Carville

Anyone who's a Democrat needs to read every book he's ever written. And take pause.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

98. I'm sure lots of Beltway Insiders are scared of the Net Roots

This may be part of it.

Carville may have slipped off the talk show radar and needed to create a stink to get back on the circuit.

In any case, I'm very disappointed in Carville attacking Dean publicly, but why get all worked up about it? Carville is old news.

OTOH, I'm very happy that Dean brushed it off as inside the beltway nonsense. In this day and age, I trust Dean's judgment much more than Carville. Carville doesn't get the "internets" and politics.

[hughee99]

99. Where have I heard this argument before...

"when someone attacks our leader, they're attacking all of us"? Oh yeah, the repuke say this ALL THE TIME!

In my opinion, Dean and Carville have the same goals for the DNC, they just disagree on how to go about achieving them. Personally, I think Dean is right and Carville is wrong, but Carville has every right to speak his mind and try to convince me that he is right and Dean is wrong. I used to hear a lot about how important dissent is, but I guess that's only when the people we agree with are doing the dissent.

[Morgana LaFey]

131. No, they DEMONSTRABLY have different goals for the DNC

Dean wants to grow it from the bottom -- the grassroots -- up. That would make it vibrant and glowing and full of life. Also unpredictable. Also uncontrollable (from the Washingtonian perspective).

Carville wants things just as they are only more so. More power for the Washington Establishemnt Dems. He wants the Washington Establishment Dems to be able to pull the shots -- decide who runs and where, who wins and where, where the money goes (and where it comes from, like corporations), etc. And more power to themselves and corporations, less to none with the people.

Carville is a dying breed, unless they are able to retain power over the DNC, and he knows it.

[hughee99]

135. There's a difference between goals and methods...

They BOTH want to see as many democrats as possible get elected, they both want a Democrat to win the presidency in '08 and for the Dems to increase their majorities in both the House and the Senate. That, IMHO, is their common GOAL.

Dean thinks the way to do this is from the bottom up, because building the party nationally will make us stronger in the long run (and I agree with him). Carville thinks that it is better to spend the money targeting specific races, which means that it's the party insiders and power brokers who decide where and when to spend the money. These are the METHODS that each believe will help them achieve these goals.

[Morgana LaFey]

137. I reject your framing, tho I do see your point

I know that Dean's GOAL is to return power to the people. That is specifically antithetical to Carville's GOAL in accruing power for Democrats.

[hughee99]

138. I see what you mean as well...

I agree that Dean's way of doing things is a better way to go about it, and will return more power to the people than Carville's way. I think Carville's been listening to his own spin so long he believes that empowering the Democratic leadership is necessarily the same thing as empowering the people.

[Jennicut]

101. Carville is Hillary's Hack

Its do obvious, and Hillary is trying to gain power and control. This is succeeding in dividing the party and perhaps all of us who support the Democratic Party. Enough with the Bush Clinton Bush Clinton presidencies. I liked Bill Clinton and I voted for him in 1996 when I was only 20 years old. But things have changed since then and Carville does not understand that he is attacking the person who helped us back to the majority...Dean. I think we should allow for open discussion on this board and we can't shut out moderates and conservative Dems from the Dem party or DU. However, Carville is not attacking Dean because he has a different idealogical take on the Dem party. He is doing it because Hillary most likely asked him to do it. Dean refuses to play games and allow Carville, Hillary, Schumer, Emanuel to take over the party message and contain all the power in their one little area. Dean did not attack other Dems, Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry did not attack other Dems. At this point, as a liberal in the Dem party I respect and like conservative Dems better as at least you know where they stand and they are for the most part true to their word. But this power consolidation and keep other voices out way of doing things by Hillary and her lackeys is turning me off. I was once a DLC supporter and more moderate but they really turned me off as they are only after power and control...just like Bushie and his father were. Thats why I dislike the DLC part of our party. And we should be allowed to have disagreements in this party, unlike Rove and the rest of the Repubs who shut others out and blackballed them. Look up info on Joel Hefley. He just retired from Congress, was a Repub who took it to Delay over ethics and he got shutout for not "being loyal" and turned off by the system. We cannot allow the DLC'rs to do that in the Dem party.

[farmbo]

121. Good post...welcome to DU!

:hi:

The "loan" issue is frivolous. Had Dean borrowed $6 million, Carville would still be out there whining over why he didn't borrow $12 million.

This is all about retaining power for the Beltway Elites... and steamrolling any pesky roadblocks for Hillary in '08...like... maybe Howard Dean and the Netroots.

[JamesJoyce]

105. Carville speaks for ME!

Do the math. Dean cost us seats.

[geiger]

106. I agree, we need to do more math. I hate math, but we need to do more math

Dean is a great guy and a great chair, but he needs to remember his math lessons from Med School.

[buddysmellgood]

110. Show your math.

[geiger]

129. the point is Dean needs to show his math

[buddysmellgood]

143. The election showed his math. I can't believe you would bitch about taking

the house AND the senate. No one thought we would do both. Are you going to argue that we would have taken more seats if we had ignored some states?

[ProSense]

136. Math lesson:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2972690&mesg_id=2972690

[oc2002]

109. Carvelle = Republican Victory.

Carvelle is scum, he is a profesional liar.

[geiger]

113. you know nothing if you truly believe that ; he gets in "trouble" becoz he duz speak the truth

[oc2002]

116. the only time he speaks truth is when he can make $$$ out of it.

your a fool to think otherwise.

[geiger]

117. and how do you know you are speaking truth now

Read his books, and then get back to me, or if you just cant bring yourself to do that, read Ray Strother's book (also from LA) Falling Up: How a Redneck Helped Invent Political Consulting, and get back to me.

[Buzz Clik]

134. Carville = GOP victory? Hells bells, I thought we won.

Or is it your impression that Carville stayed at home for the entire election cycle? Surely you wouldn't be suggesting that Dean did all the work and no one else contributed! Right?

[cadmium]

111. Amen n/t

[Swamp Rat]

118. Here ya go:

[Individualist]

128. Perfect!

You've depicted his DLC essence perfectly! :thumbsup:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

139. LOL, Swamp Rat, "Cannibal Carville".

I just got home and clicked on DU, after being gone all day, and was expecting this thread to be locked or contain one or more deleted sub threads.

To my pleasant surprise, the impassioned debate about Carville's statement is still standing, sub threads and all.

And, how apropos that it earned the Swamp Rat "seal of approval"!

:hi: MKJ

[threadkillaz]

142. Scarville is soooo 90's.

nt

[Cha]

145. So last

century, dude.

[Jim Sagle]

146. Carville ain't nuthin' but Republican FILTH and neither is anyone who defends him.

[Buzz Clik]

155. Gee, I defended him, but I'm a registered Democrat.

I guess I have to give up my card, get back my donations to Howard Dean and the DNC (and DU), and find away to wash a way my filth.

:cry:

[Jim Sagle]

156. Hey, you're OK. Just you. And anyone else who asks as nicely.

;-)

[Hippo_Tron]

161. I don't defend his statements, BUT I do point out factual inaccuracies in attacks against him

IMO Howard Dean can take care of himself and frankly I think we're spending too much time trying to defend him from someone that isn't even a threat. Granted there's no election going on so I guess there's not much else for us to do.

Carville isn't a Republican and he isn't even that much of a DLCer (he had serious qualms about Welfare Reform) although he is no doubt a loyalist to the Clintons. Carville is an asshole. He always has been and he always will be. There's a reason that he and Begala wound up not working on the Kerry campaign. Nobody could stand working with them and their huge egos.

[RSchewe]

168. Let's cut through all the crap. Carville is bitchin' about $ MONEY $, so...

is he bitchin' the same to the "Deadbeat Dems" like those who did not pay their dues to the DCCC? How about all that money Hillary was sitting and basically wasting on in a blowout election?

Let's get real here. People seem to overlook some things and selectively attack others. I remember Kerry getting hammered for this and eventually giving in when he finally started shelling out from his warchest.

You can tell who the tightwads are when they respond to this question by saying: "but, but, but, I campaigned for (candidate-x)". It's not the same.

A lot of people were holding out on money. The DNC had a mere bag of shells compared to what was being held back by many sources in the party (deadbeats and people like Hillary Clinton with vast warchests in uncontested races).


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/12/23535/898

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/031406/news1.html


Make no mistake, this is an attack by the Establishment on the grassroots.