UCLA police using a Taser on a student who allegedly refused to leave the library Tuesday night.

[Sequoia]

The latest in a recent spate of cellphone videos documenting questionable arrest tactics surfaced Wednesday, this one showing a UCLA police officer using a Taser to stun a student who allegedly refused to leave the campus library.

Grainy video of the Tuesday night incident at UCLA's Powell Library was broadcast Wednesday on TV news and the Internet, prompting a review of the officers' actions and outrage among students at the Westwood campus.

The footage showed the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, falling to the ground and crying out in pain as officers stunned him.

According to a campus police report, the incident began when community service officers, who serve as guards at the library, began their nightly routine of checking to make sure everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cellcamera16nov16,0,4794591.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[SoCalDem]

1. and if the student had been named "Brad Wellington"

and was blond and 6ft tall, he would have been cordially asked to leave.

[babylonsister]

2. Sadly, I think you're right. nt

[Sequoia]

3. Hey, I just found you in another topic (CC) and came to this and there you are!

You certainly get around!

[SoCalDem]

5. Heh-heh.. cue the BeachBoys

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxNYCWMQ204

[Sequoia]

7. Sadly my Big Brother at work does not allow for fun stuff.

[Greyhound]

65. Not one doubt about it. n/t

[mom cat]

357. The dude was already on his way out, but

that did not change his skin color!

[Marnieworld]

4. Tasers should be outlawed

How many people have to die first? This is such excessive force and these people weren't even police officers. Sick and yes I agree his ethnicity probably played a role. Thank god for cell phone videos.

[blogslut]

9. I agree

These taser happy bastards have no idea if a person has a heart condition. Plus the way they.kept.doing.it....

I am sick

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

12. I used to think so

(that they should be outlawed). But the numbers seem to verify that the number of accidental deaths by police go down when tasers are implemented. The big problem when they first came out was that there was no protocol for their use and they were being misused a lot. The manufacturer was to blame, claiming that taser is a "non-lethal" weapon, when in fact it can be lethal. Furthermore, taser is very abuse-able as an implement of torture.

A growing history and awareness has improved things and many police depts have come up with rules for use of tasers, but a universally accepted protocol would be beneficial.


With regard to this particular incident, this student sounds like a damned fool to me and he's lucky he didn't get worse.

[Kerrytravelers]

16. What could be worse? Maybe getting shot?

Arrest him with handcuffs. Tasering in a situation where no harm to others was immanent seems quite excessive.

I live in the Los Angeles area. This is all over our news. At this point in time, no eyewitnesses or anything released to the public indicates that anyone was in grave danger.



Edited for typo, not altering content.

[Marnieworld]

22. Numbers? What numbers?

I can't imagine accidental deaths from excessive force from Police ever being as quick and easy as a simple taser shock. What other kinds of accidental deaths could there be? Gun Cleaning? They would have to beat for a while before they could do the damage a single shock could do. I think that having a taser as a personal defense (especially for women) is better than a gun but in the hands of an Authoritative figure it is way too dangerous.

Protocols aren't followed all of the time. Shame on you you broke the rules does little to bring a dead person back. Even if someone doesn't die they are being punished without any legal due process. I win my case but only after I am tortured by the arresting officer? I don't think we should live like that.

Traffic incidents and other minor crimes people are getting executed or tortured for. That rarely happened before now. I am so tired of reading these stories.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

27. Since you asked

Accidental death by shooting is down where tasers are used.
In this case, it's very unlikely that guns would have been drawn so accidental shooting isn't likely.

Still, the student is fortunate to have been tasered, because the alternative would be to subdue him with physical force.
If they had chosen to use physical force, bruises, cuts, broken bones, etc. might result. As you can see from the video, he was able to walk and talk after the taser treatment, and there was no bleeding.

You're wrong about beating vs. taser. In a normal, healthy, young person (like this UCLA student) there is almost never damage from the shock. There is almost always damage from physical force.

[blogslut]

30. How clinical of you

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. He's right

if all you have is a hammer you will use a hammer

In this case if all officers have in the threat matrix is no force or lethal force, guess what happens? More people die

[blogslut]

34. Medical personel take down mental patients

...without injury. Why can't cops?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I was one of them medical personnel at one time

and you are wrong... many a times both patients and personnel are hurt... I could even show you scars

That said... you are comparing apples and oranges.

Nice try thouhg

[blogslut]

49. I realize that

I had friends that worked in such facilities.

However, you must agree that this was an example of excessive force. The young man was outnumbered and not wielding a weapon. He did not get up nor did he struggle. After a point, this incident turned into some sort of sick power play. There's a sort of bloodlust going on here that is chilling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I agree that the case has to be reviewed

we don't all the facts, not even from the video, and yes I watchted the six+ minutes

And since it has surfaced, it will be reviewed. as it should.

[Tom Joad]

170. People die when library cards are not present? A problem i never

thought about.

[elehhhhna]

193. "Dont' leave home without it!"

[Imagevision]

216. 1999 to 2004, only 71 people in the United States and Canada died

[readmoreoften]

228. And what proof do you have that this person wouldn't be #72?

How large of a sample have to die before it's inappropriate to use a particular weapon against a kid in a library who forgot his student ID (when by law you don't even need a student ID to be there...)?

[pnwmom]

302. And how many limp offenders died being carried out of a

building? Zero. There was no reason to use a type of force that in rare cases can cause death, when all they had to do was what they finally did in the end -- grasp him under the arms and carry him out.

[Occulus]

314. And, considering if police taser you, you're likely to stand in front of a judge at some point,

all 71 of those people were executed without trial.

That's 71 too Goddamn many. Realize that you're trivializing the lives of people upon whom police, that's PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS, acted as judge, jury, and executioner.

71. Too. Many. Say it until you believe it.

[pnwmom]

238. All they needed in the "threat matrix" was enough

muscle power to carry him out of the room. He was limp, at one point he was even hand-cuffed, and yet they kept shocking him. Why? Not because he was fighting them or violent, but because he wasn't standing. All they had to do was what they finally did at the end -- a couple of officers held him under the arms and dragged him out.

Why on earth, if the goal was to MOVE the subject, would you deliver a shock designed to lock-up the muscles and immobilize him? The study in the Lancet Journal said that the immobilization from a taser shock could last for 15 minutes. According to an eye witness, the victim was shocked in the buttocks. Why would you shoot someone in the buttocks, then order him to stand?

[Marnieworld]

33. I asked for numbers not a reassertion of your opinion

Obviously if people choose to tase rather than shoot first that would decrease shooting. But I think people tase before the attempt to physically subdue which is where I have the problem. And exactly how do college security guard assess a person's health before tasing? I'd take a bruise or a cut over a tazing any day. And you can't exactly see the pain associated with a tasing on video so how do you compare it to a bruise? Consciousness as a barometer for acceptable force? What have we come to?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I have a recomendation for you

go to your local police department, and ASK to witness the training officers get in the academy on less than lethal methods.

1.- You will be in for asurprise, pleasant in fact, if your department has good policies and procedures in the books. They will also mention real cases and stats. My favorite, when our local PD adopted less than lethal shells for shotguns (beanie bags) their first response involved a mnetally deranged woman wiht a chef knife. The previous week, BEFORE the beanie, she would have been shot, and rightly so, the knife IS a deadly weapon. Once the beanie bag was deployed, she was shot, her art was broken but everybody survived the incident. Oh and yes, the local press started screaming police brutality until it was pointed to them she'd be dead, not at the local psych ward getting evaluated.

2.- Go out on a ride along with your local cops.

many people do have this amazingly wrong picture of what police work actually is.

[Marnieworld]

51. How does that refute what I said?

It kind of proves that there are other less dangerous options to tasering or shooting. Even in your example the woman had a weapon a threat more than just an attitude which is frequently confronted by tasers. I'm not suggesting that police do nothing when confronted or that they aren't faced with enormous dangers and challenges. I think this "tool" was added way before the ramifications were considered. It's too easy a temptation to use frivolously. Even without permanent damage I don't think they should have the power to inflict that type of pain. Law enforcement existed before tasers and could do without them as well.

Considering that this "tool" was in the hands of people with less authority and training than actual police shows how it is being abused. A library? A rule being broken? Is this worthy of torture? And the guy was handcuffed during it? You don't see this as over the top?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Tasers are part of the threat matrix

their real threat when in used of actually killing somebody are VERY LOW, and trust me lower, much lower than a bullet... in fact it is up there with anaphilaxis from a bee sting... which is BLOODY LOW, and why they are called less than lethal and no longer non lethal.

As to this tool being in the hands of people with less training, depends, who trains them. Some of these security people are trained by the Sherifs... some of them are not... that should also be part of a review of Policies and Procedures.

I don't who trains them, and neither do you.

What I do know is that conversations do not start in screams. There is more to this story than the tape shows, and that usually is the case in any of these cases unless yuo have a vehicle mounted police camera on a squad car.

What I know is the case has to be reviewed

What I kow is that if they did something wrong, unlike cops, there is a lawsuit in there and trust me, it will be used as an option. There may even be criminal charges too.

What I know is that the tape I saw does not tell me the whole story

I WANT THE CASE REVIEWED and if the security officers did something wrong, I want them fined, fired et al. But I also know that I will not jump to conclusions and that you truly SHOULD use your right to go to your local police department, and ASK to witness the training of officers and to go on a couple ride alongs

Perhaps after you do that, you will realize that they are not the big bad boogey man you seem to think they are

[piedmont]

71. You asserted something, Marnieworld asked for a source.

You changed the subject instead of giving a source. Would you now please answer Marnieworld's question?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Go to ANY police Academy or the FBI

if you want any sources.

When it comes to police procedure I have learend it does not matter to you folks how many times you are shown the actual statistics of actual lethality of things such as tasers and tear gas. Are they non lethal? No, are they less than lethal yes... are they part of a vaild matric absolutely

Or perhaps we should go back to the good ol' days when if you lounge in an agressive manner at a cop you get shot, justifiably so by the way. Maybe then you will realize how wromg many a times you guys are.

So you can go and search for them. I have in the past, but it is not soething you want to look at

Your other opption is to exerice YOUR RIGHT as a citizen to go on ride alongs (most police departments actually like that) and to attend training sessions at your local police academy... it would be good if every citizen did that... to get rid of many of your preceonceptions.

[piedmont]

76. look, I'm not in total disagreement with you....

but if you assert something here, its your obligation to back it up with a link or verifiable source. Otherwise it contributes nothing to the discussion.


For the record, I'm NOT in favor of banning Tasers, but I am certainly not in favor of abuses like the one in the OP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

317. No it is not

especially when many a times I have bothered to look for them

That is number one

Number two, the incident, as it should, is under review

There were problems procedurally, and the cops should at the very least face disciplinary action. At wost they should be fired for showing extremely poor judgment

The tape that was shown on the news ENHANCED the video, which was of poor quality, and the KO interview with the local gumshoe reporter did show some major breaks in procedure.

By the way, this kid should contact the ACLU come morning. He has a case, and reality is, he should not pay for the rest of his education at UCLA or any other UC campus... at the very least.

That said, in general if you want the stats you can go look for them. I have shown them in the past. And knowing what I know I'd rather, even if wrongly, be tasered any day of the way and twice on Sunday, than shot. My chances of walking away from a tosser, even if extremely painful, are far better than a nine millimeter or 45 ACP. After all, given police officers are trained to shoot to center of mass, my chances of ending in the morgue from a gun shot are pretty good. A taser, on the other hand, it will hurt like a mother... but my chances of analyphaxis from a bee sting are actually about the same. I'll take my chances if you get my drift.

That by the way, does not mean I condone excesive force. Just that many of these cases you come in right in the middle of the action and you truly do not have a full picture. The good news, more and more of these tapes are forcing police officers to review P&Ps, and that is why I also encourage people to do ride alongs. It keeps everybody honest, I also would love to have ALL deparetments equipemed with cruiser cameras.

[piedmont]

360. yes, it is

You've made a claim and said to the rest of us "go prove me wrong-- otherwise I'm right"

I have no idea if the claim is reasonable or not, but I'm not going to take the trouble to look it up because you've already looked it up, and it should be no problem at all for you to give a source. Since you're not giving a source, I have to conclude you're lying about that source.

There. I've made a claim (that you're lying). Now go prove me wrong. Otherwise I'm right.

[pnwmom]

382. Of course it's better than being shot with a bullet. Duh.

But it is ONLY supposed to be used when the alternative is the use of deadly force. In this case, before the invention of the Taser, the police would never have SHOT a student with a gun for refusing to leave a library -- they would simply have carried the limp protester out. So to say that this device is preferable to a gun is true but also completely irrelevant to the situation we have here.

[pnwmom]

175. The tapes MIGHT justify the first shock with the taser.

We don't know all the details of what happened before the beginning of the tape that was made public. But we have all the evidence we need to know the repeated tasings were NOT justified -- after the victim was prone, cringing, and crying on the floor.

The purpose of the taser is to IMMOBILIZE, not to make someone move. It works by shocking and locking up the muscles of the victim, and the effects of a few seconds of shock can result in immobilization for up to 15 minutes.

Once he was immobilized, it made no sense for the police to demand that he stand up. What they did amounted to torture. All they ever had to do was simply carry him out, which they ended up doing anyway.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

180. Pain only

My impression is that phasers do exactly as you describe. Taser, on the other hand, is tuned in such a way as to cause more pain but the recovery is much more rapid: a matter of seconds.

ex:
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_051704_Army,00.html "Immediately after the hit, however, Palmer was able to stand on his own."
http://www.pti.uiuc.edu/pdf/taser.pdf "recovery ... is almost instantaneous"

[pnwmom]

186. I don't think data from the taser-vendors is an unbiased source,

whether or not it comes wrapped in a police "position paper."

I'll trust a referreed study in the Lancet Medical Journal over the taser-vendors any day.

From the Daily Bruin article:


"But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.

"It is a real mistake to treat a Taser as some benign thing that painlessly brings people under control," said Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney at the ACLU of Southern California.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

204. Stun gun

I agree with the second quote. Clearly, taser is designed to cause pain, as described in post 204.

The first quote, which is more to your point, is too old for me; the current pulse technology was introduced in 2003. Also, it is almost word for word the description of my stun gun found in the users manual. I think it must be about stun guns.

[pnwmom]

223. The latest models of Taser are even better at immobilizing

their victims, or at least that's what they say when they're trying to sell their stock:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2004/nf20041118_7014_db014.htm

"There's no denying that Taser has a solid foundation, however. For the three months ended Sept. 30, the Scottsdale, Ariz., company reported earnings of $6.1 million, or 19 cents per share, up from $1.1 million, or 4 cents per share, in the year-ago quarter. It expects full-year revenue to increase 175% over the prior year.

With the X26 and the M26 models, the only stun guns on the market that pack enough power to completely immobilize their victims, Taser has next to no competition. It operates at 50% profit margins, and it has only begun to penetrate its potential markets. "


Did you get that? They "pack enough power to completely immobilize their victims." Now they probably weren't using that version on this particular victim, since -- as you so astutely pointed out -- he was still able to use his tongue muscle. But the other versions of the Taser also work to immobilize the victim, just not as completely.

[Crim_n al]

365. Going by the report in the local paper, not even touching

the young man in question was justified, as he had picked up his backpack and was quietly walking out before the officers arrived.

The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

The student began to yell "get off me," repeating himself several times.

It was at this point that the officers shot the student with a Taser for the first time, causing him to fall to the floor and cry out in pain. The student also told the officers he had a medical condition.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

Bush can now declare this young man to be an alien terrorist sympathiser, and make sure he is secretly picked up, transported to Gitmo, and never given a chance to speak to a reporter, lawyer or to sue for habeus corpus rights.

That's not to say he will, but it's all legal now.

[pnwmom]

383. What a country we're living in now.

[EFerrari]

344. Actually, I know that force and yes, they are bad boogey men

to brown people. The whole community is, as a matter of fact.

Isn't there another thread floating around here somewhere of a Chicano kid being beaten by the LAPD? The guys in Westwood use better equipment but they have the same mentality.

Please.

[madmusic]

214. Well, hell, thank God for Bush! He could have nuked Iraq, but didn't!

What a great guy.

[tblue37]

93. I have a cardiac arhythmia. You can't tell by looking,

but I bet that a tasing would kill me--or anyone with a similar arhythmia.

Considering that the cops are tasing little old ladies--one blind, deaf 71-year-old woman in Oregon and her 94-year-old mother, for example--and 5-year-old children, I don't have any reason to assume the fact that I am a 56-year-old woman would protect me if I annoyed a cop.

Suppose I want to exercise my right to assemble or to protest against the war or some other government policy. And suppose the cops want me and my fellow protesters to move. They have shown a willingness to beat and tase people in such situations. There is good reason to believe I might end up tased--and dead--if I dared to annoy the police by attending a protest.

Don't you think that sort of thing could have a chilling effect on contitutionally protected citizen action?

[Marnieworld]

102. yep my point exactly

The only videos I need to see are the ones like the incidents you described. It's used as a punishment for defiance or even just asserting our rights. They shouldn't have the power to punish.

[Irreverend IX]

184. Guns have a much higher chance of killing than tasers.

In the past, a gun was the only effective way to quickly and reliably put down a violent suspect. With tasers, police have another option for use against people who attack them. That said, there's no way tasers should ever be used against people who are not posing a physical threat to the police. Police who use them to gain compliance in situations where they are not under attack should be sent up the river. But proper use of tasers could save lives, as with the beanbag shotgun in post 44.

[tblue37]

189. They don't just use them to gain compliance in such non-threatening

situations, but also to punish noncompliance, even after the person has been completely subdued.

[smoogatz]

190. How likely is some campus cop to pull out a gun and shoot a guy

in the school library for not having his ID? The point is that these idiots torture people every day with these dangerous weapons for no good reason, and apparently without consequence. I hope the kid sues UCLA for about $100 million--it being LA, he probably will. And he'll probably win.

[Irreverend IX]

231. He should.

The cop in the story was totally careless in his use of the weapon. But that doesn't mean tasers can't be used to stop people in situations where cops would have had to fire their guns before.

[pnwmom]

246. No, it doesn't. But the point is what happened to this student, yesterday.

And the sickening part is listening to some people here trying to justify it.

[cui bono]

268. Yeah, it is sickening. Even if the kid wasn't getting up on purpose, that

would be civil disobedience. What's wrong with carrying him out and arresting him? That's what they do to peaceful protesters. I got no impression that he was being violent in any way. Those cops were way out of line. There was no need for any weapon be it taser, gun or billy club.

[majorjohn]

315. exactly my thought

There's absolutely no justification for this unnecessary act of violence committed by those who supposedly were there to "protect" the students.

[Alexander]

41. And what about heart conditions?

Seniors, people with heart problems, people with other medical conditions, or even drug users, current or former, can be susceptible to serious injury or death from taser use.

I guess you went to the Dr. Frist school of remote diagnosis, eh?

:eyes:

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

47. The "hidden condition" argument is bogus.

This would be a bad for him if physical force was chosen, as well. If he has a hidden medical condition, he shouldn't get in fights with teams of big, strong men.

Being in a fighting mood may be taken as evidence of good health.

[pnwmom]

116. How do you excuse multiple tasings? After the first, he was cringing

on the floor, not fighting. They tased him because he wasn't standing up, not to subdue him.

Before they invented tasers, police weren't allowed to beat suspects who didn't stand up. They just picked them up. Why didn't they just do that? That's what they ended up doing anyway.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

129. I haven't

I haven't "excused" behavior. My main point is that tasing is not as bad as beating for both the police and the arrestee.

My opinion of the incident in the library is that the police didn't handle it very well but the student was very foolish and brought it all on himself. He'll live.

[pnwmom]

142. I hope he lives to sue the crap out of the University.

[Turbineguy]

166. I have to wonder

how many students would be able to attend UCLA for what that lawsuit could cost them.

[pnwmom]

172. I don't. The way police are using non-lethal weapons now

is a threat to all of us. I don't care how much damage this does to UCLA. The threat to our civil liberties is greater if this sort of thing is allowed to continue.

Before this weapon was invented, all the police would do with a prone subject was pick him up and drag him out. That's all they had to do today. Instead, they used a weapon that was specifically designed to shock and immobilize a violent offender -- on a prone and cringing and crying victim. And when they had him down, and immobilized, they threated him with further shocking if he didn't move!

Is this what they'll be doing in sit-ins from now on, and other peaceful protests? Whip out their tasers? No, because they'll have even better non-lethal weapons to try out on us. They're already designing microwave weapons and sonar weapons for "crowd control."

If we don't protest tasers on immobilized victims now, we'll have ourselves to blame for what happens down the road.

[1monster]

144. Didn't handle it very well? They acted criminally. That is from

someone whose father was a lieutenant in a police force among other things before he retired... and the next-door neighbor of a county sheriff for sixteen years.

That tape made me angry enough that had I been there, I would have been leading those students to over power the so-called cops and making a citizens arrest for aggravated battery and perhaps even unlawful imprisonment, as well as torture.

I hope they are not only fired, but have criminal charges pressed against them.

And take the tazers away from the incompetent bullies who don't know that tazers are only to be used in the greatest need instead of a fire arm.

Tazers should only be used if it is necessary to save people from great bodily harm or death.

[AX10]

267. Hundreds of students could have with ease tackled and held these....

SOB's down. It would have been quite easy to do so.

[tbyg52]

348. Yes, if

they had *gotten* *together*. That's the hard part.

[cui bono]

272. You frame your argument is like the MSM's talk show panels.

It's either a beating or a taser??? Why??? There was NO NEED for EITHER!!!

All the had to do was arrest him and carry him out, just like they did at the end of all the torture. He was cuffed ffs.

[pnwmom]

304. Why are you comparing the risk to a beating?

The police would NOT have been justified in beating him, either. They would have been disciplined for beating a non-violent, hand-cuffed, subject.

[cui bono]

269. He didn't get in a fight. Sheesh. Get a grip already.

[smoogatz]

312. Actually, no.

I had paroxysmal atrial fibrillation for fifteen years--it would come and go pretty much on its own schedule. One minute I'd feel fine--able to go out and run, lift weights, whatever--next minute I'd feel like total crap, the upper chamber of my heart going totally crazy. Millions of people in the U.S. have the same condition (Bill Bradley and Bush 41 among them), and they look and act no different from anyone else you'd run into on the street. This is a condition that is actually treated (sometimes) with strong, precisely timed electrical shocks to the chest/back. I have no doubt that the voltage from a taser could do serious damage to, or even kill, someone with a similar heart condition. And here's the thing--cops don't just tasert strong, healthy-looking young men who are putting up a hell of a fight. They use these things indiscriminately--even on old people and children who are no threat to them. What's bogus is the argument that tasers actually save lives--I don't buy it.

[kiahzero]

318. Actually, it's a well established component of both criminal and tort law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

That means it applies to police officers blatantly abusing their power, such as in this case.

[Crim_n al]

366. You do seem to prefer fiction to facts.

This guy was not "getting into a fight" ... he was walking out the door, quietly, when they grabbed him. Some people don't like being touched, and he asked them not to. Instead they grabbed him and pushed him around, which was an assault.

They had no excuse whatsoever for tasering him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. What about them?

Look that is a minority of the people we are talking about

Once again, what would you rather have, a police officer with only bullets as an option or other options?

Your choice is... we shoot to kill in all threatening situations or we use less than lethal and yes, perhaps some people will not react well.

Well by that same logic, given the statistics are similar, don't take your kids to the park, a sting from a bee may kill them too.

[cui bono]

276. You act as if there was no option but to use force. They could have

carried him out as they should have.

[pnwmom]

308. The argument is about whether tasering this student

was justified, NOT whether tasers can EVER be justified.

A taser is supposed to replace the use of DEADLY force. Officers are not supposed to be using deadly force -- or tasers -- on subjects who are posing no risk or threat to anyone in the vicinity. This student, hanging limp and hand-cuffed, was clearly no risk to anyone and yet they repeatedly shocked him. Even more egregious, they shocked him with a device meant to immobilize him, while shouting demands that he stand up.

What we were watching on this video was plain, ordinary, every day, garden-variety evil. It's scary to me that so many people here cannot see that.

[Crim_n al]

368. Only a minority are going to die?

Well, that makes it all ok then, doesn't it.

After all, who cares about minorities, especially ones with heart conditions ...

Tasers, in case you have not noticed, are more and more often being used where other means of force would never be used.

This is torture, and is bound to kill some people who would not have been hurt at all if the police were not feeling free to attack with tasers for no good reason.

[nashville_brook]

89. paraphrasing -- "lucky he wasn't shot..."

wow.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

99. Please don't be dishonest.

I didn't say that at all, even allowing for paraphrasing.
I said that shooting was very unlikely, and I said that he would have been harmed more by a beating than by tasing.

[nashville_brook]

107. time for you to be honest "numbers verify accidental deaths go down w/tasers"

With regard to this particular incident, this student sounds like a damned fool to me and he's lucky he didn't get worse.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

110. And I said specifically beating, not shooting........

I'll see if I can find the numbers; I don't have them handy.
And he is lucky he wasn't beaten.

[pnwmom]

299. He is lucky he wasn't beaten?????

You mean, he is lucky he wasn't the victim of police brutality?

I guess you must have a very low opinion of the police. I expect the police to hold to a much higher standard of behavior and I bet most police would agree with me.

We shall see as this is investigated.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

303. Investigation is good. We'll learn more, I'm sure. nt

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

147. Amnesty Int'l

I chose the Amnesty International document because nobody is more critical of Taser than AI.
Please see the chart on page 40, which is for Orange County.
It's clear that, as Taser was introduced, other forms of force was reduced, although the total
uses of force remained about the same. Use of firearms, physical force, chemical force, impact
weapons, all of which can kill, decreased dramatically and in some cases to zero.

"Taser announced that use of its stun gun had saved an estimated 9,000 lives because police did
not have to reach for a gun". 12/5/05. Ok, that's the company.

"We concede that the development of nonlethal weapons saves lives and reduces injuries".
-- Ed Jackson of Amnesty International, referring specifically to Taser.

[madmusic]

249. Amnesty International

Tasers - Part II

This year Amnesty International released a report on Tasers. (download PDF here) The report also looks at the systematic misuse of tasers by police and in prisons. It points out that there is a widespread policy of using tasers as a routine compliance tool on subjects who are passively resisting or “perceived” to not be complying with orders. Taser misuse is increasingly linked with unnecessary punishment, degradation and torture. In part I of the Taser series, Law and Disorder hosts spoke with Ed Jackson. (listen here) This week we go to Portland, Oregon where during Amnesty International’s General Annual Meeting, co-host Dalia Hashad caught up with Amnesty International spokeswoman and Taser expert Mona Cadena in Pioneer Square.

Guest - Mona Cadena - Amnesty International spokeswoman and Taser expert.

Download/Listen <8 MB>

http://lawanddisorder.org/?cat=3

[Crim_n al]

367. Also fron Amnesty International

There is also evidence to suggest that, far from being used to avoid lethal force, many US police agencies are deploying tasers as a routine force option to subdue non-compliant or disturbed individuals who do not pose a serious danger to themselves or others. In some departments, tasers have become the most prevalent force tool. They have been used against unruly schoolchildren; unarmed mentally disturbed or intoxicated individuals; suspects fleeing minor crime scenes and people who argue with police or fail to comply immediately with a command. Cases described in this report include the stunning of a 15-year-old schoolgirl in Florida, following a dispute on a bus, and a 13- year-old girl in Arizona, who threw a book in a public library.

International standards encourage the development of non-lethal incapacitating weapons for law enforcement "for use in appropriate situations, with a view to increasingly restraining the application of means capable of causing death or injury to persons" but state that such weapons must be "carefully evaluated" and their use "carefully controlled".(3) Amnesty International believes that this standard has not been met with regard to tasers, despite their increasing use across the country.

Amnesty International is further concerned by the growing number of fatalities involving police tasers. Since 2001, more than 70 people are reported to have died in the USA and Canada after being struck by M26 or X26 tasers, with the numbers rising each year. While coroners have tended to attribute such deaths to other factors (such as drug intoxication), some medical experts question whether the taser shocks may exacerbate a risk of heart failure in cases where persons are agitated, under the influence of drugs, or have underlying health problems such as heart disease. In at least five recent cases, coroners have found the taser directly contributed to the death, along with other factors such as drug abuse and heart disease. As discussed below, the death toll heightens Amnesty International’s concern about the safety of stun weapons and the lack of rigorous, independent testing as to their medical effects.

Many police agencies claim that tasers have the potential to save lives or avoid serious injury in cases where police officers might otherwise resort to firearms or other forms of deadly force. It is self-evident that tasers are less-lethal or injurious than firearms. Amnesty acknowledges that there may be situations where tasers can effectively be used as "stand-off", defensive weapons as an alternative to firearms in order to save lives. This appears to be the aim of the limited introduction of tasers to UK police who operate under strict rules. However, it appears that in practice tasers are rarely used as an alternative to firearms in the USA and most departments place them at a relatively low level on the "force scale". Amnesty International further notes that measures such as stricter controls and training on the use of force and firearms are likely to be more effective overall in reducing unnecessary deaths or injuries.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511392004

Somehow this rather changes the picture given above of Amnesty International's attitude to tasering.

[pnwmom]

229. They didn't need to beat him either. Why didn't they just carry him out?

That's what they had to do in the end anyway.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

235. In retrospect, that would have been better.... nt

[madmusic]

250. So why debate it?

That is what the debate is all about.

[pnwmom]

115. They weren't trying to SUBDUE him. They were trying to make him

stand up. All they had to do was carry him off -- as they ended up doing anyway.

Do you think that if protestors were having a sit-down strike, that police should be allowed to taser them to force them to stand up?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

134. Why didn't he stand up, then?

Was this a sit-down strike? It seems more like a spoiled brat having a tantrum to me.
The comparison is too weak.
I think both the student and the police (but more so the student) behaved poorly.

[pnwmom]

143. He was immobilized by the shock to his lower extremities

that prevented him from standing up. From the Bruin article:

A Taser delivers volts of low-amperage energy to the body, causing a disruption of the body's electrical energy pulses and locking the muscles, according to a report by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"It's an electrical shock. ... It causes pain," Young said, adding that the drive stun would not likely demobilize a person or cause residual pain after the shock was administered. Young also said a Taser is less forceful than a baton, for example.

But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.

"It is a real mistake to treat a Taser as some benign thing that painlessly brings people under control," said Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney at the ACLU of Southern California.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

149. Possible, but he could have said so.

He certainly had a lot of other things to say at that moment.

[pnwmom]

154. He said that he wasn't fighting. He was in extreme pain.

To my ears, it was clear that he wanted to cooperate but that he couldn't.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

156. Agree to disagree

Sorry, I see the same tape and come to a different conclusion on this point. I'm going by the words that he uttered (that I could hear) but eyewitnesses would have heard and seen much more.

[pnwmom]

171. Don't you think that if you had known that a taser is designed

to lock the affected muscles, you might have had a different reaction to what you heard?

Don't you think that it is wrong to use a weapon DESIGNED to IMMOBILIZE to try to force a subject to MOVE?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

174. By "wrong" do you mean "stupid?"

If by that you mean applying the taser and expecting the subject to jump up as a result, yes, that would be stupid, "wrong" thinking.
But on the "tape," we can hear the flow of the conversation between the police and the student. They tell him to get up, repeat it
several times, threaten to zap him again if he doesn't comply, repeat that, then follow through on the threat. All the while our
student is raising hell about how bad the police are. Words that would have worked; "I can't." "Help me." "I can't move." If he
had said anything like that and was ignored, I would react with more sympathy toward the student.

[pnwmom]

181. If you listen to the words of the students around him

whose brains were probably functioning better than his were at that moment, they were clearly worried about him. I don't think they thought he could move. If they did, why weren't they begging him to stand up? They could probably see that he couldn't.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

183. Good question.

Some were concerned, it looks like. A few injected themselves into the confrontation. The vast majority either got the heck out of there or were observing from a distance. I thought I heard one girl encouraging the subject to stay down, but that might be wrong. It appears to me that all of the police thought he could have stood up.

[pnwmom]

225. Maybe all of the police need more training.

[dysfunctional press]

286. he "went limp" before he was tasered.

part of his stupid resisting arrest routine.

from the original article:

""He continued to refuse," the statement said. "As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building."

[pnwmom]

293. So? He was presenting ZERO risk to the officers or

anyone in the vicinity, which is the only excuse for using a Taser. Tasers have a rare but real chance of causing a fatality. They are only SUPPOSED to be used in a case where a more dangerous weapon, such as a gun, would otherwise be used. In this case, before the invention of Tasers, all the officers would have done is what they finally did anyway -- grasp him under the arms and drag him out.

The student was asked to show ID because of concerns about terrorism. He knew that, and that's why he was shouting about the Patriot Act. So he decided to perform an act of civil disobedience, by going limp after they grabbed him. That doesn't mean they should have tased him. He wasn't a threat to anyone. He was protesting the steady erosion of our freedom. You can argue about whether ID's in a library are justified, and about whether he should be arrested or not. But we're all looking like a grim future if we condone the actions of those police officers who repeatedly used a taser on a young man whose actions weren't a threat to anyone.

[dysfunctional press]

295. the student was asaked to show i.d. because those are the RULES.

it sounds to me like this idiot was way off base, and deserved at least what he got.

[pnwmom]

296. The police have RULES, too. And one rule is

that the Taser is only supposed to be used to subdue subjects in cases where more severe force, such as a gun, would otherwise be used.

The police officers broke the rules. And, if we condone that, it puts all of us at more of a risk than a student without an ID.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

301. I can agree with that. mostly.

Baton, chemicals, fists, and clubs, also. Taser before any of those, please.

Having rules and adhering to them is essential, you are correct.

[pnwmom]

309. Well, I'm glad we agree on something.

[dysfunctional press]

316. if the police broke the rules, they should be disciplined...

according to policy- including termination if found to be warranted.

but it still doesn't mean that the stupid kid was 100% innocent in the matter.

[pnwmom]

323. He was a brave and foolish and angry and idealistic kid.

And I think we need a lot more like him.

If I were his mother, I would have been proud of him for trying to make a stand against the Patriot Act, and I would have been terrified for him. I would have been torn between kissing him and strangling him.

[dysfunctional press]

329. he was NOT "making a stand against the Patriot Act"

it's a university RULE, not a homeland security issue at stake here.

[pnwmom]

330. Didn't you hear him shouting about the Patriot Act?

And from what I read, it is a newer rule and it IS related to concerns about terrorism. But even if it isn't, the student obviously thought it was.

How can you know claim to know better than the student himself whether he was making a stand about the Patriot Act?

[EFerrari]

346. There is no rule at UCLA against being brown in a library

and that's why this student was singled out.

I can't believe the lengths you're going to in justifying this act of racist brutality.

[athena]

322. The next paragraph says "Witnesses disputed that account".

Nothing the student did presented a physical threat to the cops or to anyone else. The student was already leaving when the cop grabbed him. And he certainly didn't need to be tased 6-7 times.

The cop didn't need to grab the student when he was already leaving. He did so because he wanted to humiliate him. That's also why he used the taser.

[elehhhhna]

197. Off tocpic Q: should we be alert to blatant or willful ignorance, DU?

How many times shall we explain the same things over and over on the same thread?
Any ideas? I say One time.

[madmusic]

226. There it is: The real charge is contempt of cop.

Which should earn some cops some contempt.

[cui bono]

278. It matters not why he didn't stand up. They didn't need to use any force.

He was not a threat to their or anyone else's safety. What if he wanted to just sit in civil disobedience? Still doesn't justify being tasered.

[tbyg52]

349. I don't care if he *was* a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum!

If this is an accurate description of the video (haven't seen it, dial-up user), a "tantrum" does not warrant a taser *nor* a beating. Was he posing a physical danger to anyone else? If not, there is no excuse for what happened.

[Crim_n al]

361. It does not take a great deal of subduing

to get someone to leave a building when they are already
walking out before you arrive, as this young man was.

Being tasered in that situation is not "fortunate" by any stretch of the imagination.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

364. The context was

Taser vs. other forms of force that the cops might have chosen.
I wasn't comparing getting shocked to no force at all.

[Crim_n al]

376. And what other form of force do police use on someone

quietly leaving a building?

NONE, when, as in this case, there is no reason to believe that person is a criminal.

So comparisons with other forms of force are irrelevant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. somebody who gets it

no tasers or other LESS THAN LETHAL options (that can in some situations still be lethal) leave officers with only two choices, no force, or lethal force.

I'd rather give officers the less than lethal option

And yes you are right, numbers of lethal shootings go down when you give officers those tools

[Marnieworld]

36. Physically overpowering someone is the less than lethal option

You don't know if a taser is a lethal option until it's too late. I'm sure if you were ever tased at a traffic stop or a protest you'd agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Having worked sde by side with cops

I gotten my fair share of tear gas, so stop assuming... I never got tasered... but if I were you I'd stop assuming right about now.

As a medic I saw far more about police work than you ever will, personally

That said, when I saw inapropriate behaviour I brought it up the chain

And this case shold be reviewed like all others that have surfaced over the years

[Marnieworld]

55. Gee

You tell me not to assume things about you and then go on to assume things about me. One doesn't always need first-hand experience to have an informed opinion. You are starting to sound like a bully, insulting me personally so I choose to end our little chat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. You are the one assuming

and the first hand experience helps in that informed opinion

that is why I sugeest, hightly that you attend a training session at your local Police Academy.

[pnwmom]

324. The training session wouldn't tell you how

SOME officers actually behave when out in the field. But that video does.

[nadinbrzezinski]

354. That is why you need to insist on civil review commission

and on going on ride alongs

But have it your way.

We will scream every time the cops act wrongly, or seem to act wrongly. Well if you want a profesional force it goes well beyond screaming, you have to take some responsibitly for your own police force.

This incident, AS IT SHOULD, is under review. I can also bet some discilplinary action at the very least, comming down the pike... and that kid should not pay for the rest of his education at any UC school in the state of California

[Kerrytravelers]

60. It's somebody who agrees with you. Disagreement doesn't necessarily imply

that someone doesn't "get it." They simply have a differing point of view.

[pnwmom]

131. You don't get it. The taser locks up your muscles, which immobilizes

you. Using it to make someone stand up is nonsensical at best, torture at worst.

All they ever had to do was carry him out. That's all the force that was needed.

From the posted article in the Bruin:

A Taser delivers volts of low-amperage energy to the body, causing a disruption of the body's electrical energy pulses and locking the muscles, according to a report by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"It's an electrical shock. ... It causes pain," Young said, adding that the drive stun would not likely demobilize a person or cause residual pain after the shock was administered. Young also said a Taser is less forceful than a baton, for example.

But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.

"It is a real mistake to treat a Taser as some benign thing that painlessly brings people under control," said Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney at the ACLU of Southern California.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

136. No locked up muscles here

The kid was able to speak, and he certainly yakked it up, but he didn't say "I can't get up" or words to that effect.
If he had, my opinion would be different.

[pnwmom]

141. They didn't aim the damn thing at his mouth.

It locks up the muscles in the area that is targeted, not the whole body. And they targeted his legs.

[madmusic]

230. Now it's sounding like DemoDemoCratCrat doesn't know what he is talking about.

More like blind faith in the police.

[pnwmom]

239. I think that's what it is. And that's scary.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

242. Please don't make it about me.

I'm used to having a minority opinion. I don't expect to turn many heads around on this subject (which seems to have run its course), but remember that opposition to the war was once a minority opinion, too. The minority opinion must be heard.

[pnwmom]

245. Remember sit-ins during Vietnam? What if the police

had had tasers then? Don't you see what a slippery slope this is? If we allow police to use the taser on non-violent subjects like this student, then we can fully expect them to use tasers on us in an anti-war protest.

Or worse. They're developing new "non-lethal" weapons all the time. If we care about civil liberties, we should all be afraid.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

256. Forgive me for chuckling,

but the thought of a thousand cops trying to handle 500 thousand people with tasers would be quite a scene! I think they'll want to fall back to teargas. I was in college then, but not especially political.

I don't see this as a threat to civil rights at all. This was a case not of civil disobedience, but plain old disobedience. Someday, even this petulant child will grow out of it.

There are real threats to our rights. Corporate possession of our personal data, spy cameras everywhere, threatening new telecommunication laws; those are real threats. This is just trying to maintain order in the library.

[pnwmom]

260. For smaller or indoor protests they would use tasers.

Chuckle all you want. For larger protests they would probably use the new microwave or sonar weapons.

Why don't you check out the Taser site if you don't believe me about the muscle effects? It's all available in a handout for "citizens."

For example:

"Muscle Contraction-Related Risks. The TASER device can cause strong muscle contractions that may result in physical exertion or athletic-type injuries. In certain instances this may be serious for some people, such as those with pre-existing conditions and/or special susceptibilities. This may also occur in instances where a person has an unusual and/or unanticipated response to the TASER device deployment and/or discharge.

Secondary Injury Risks. TASER-induced strong muscle contractions usually render a subject temporarily unable to control his or her psychomotor movements. This may result in secondary injuries such as those due to falls. This loss of control, or inability to catch oneself, can in special circumstances increase the risk(s) of serious injury or death."

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

266. These are instantaneous effects

and pre-exidting conditions, not 15-minute paralysis. Not relevant.

[pnwmom]

273. They are not "instantaneous." Show me the data that proves that.

Go the the Taser website. Learn about the Taser so you can stop displaying your ignorance around here.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

284. It says that in the quotes you posted. Shessh. nt

[pnwmom]

285. It doesn't say "instantaneous." It says "temporary"

which fits in well with the study in the Lancet that reported 5- 15 minutes of immobilization due to muscle contracture.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

297. The fact that he stood up

gives the lie to that theory. It can't be true.
That's a figure of speech, I don't mean to imply that you are a liar.

[pnwmom]

310. It could easily have meant that the effect had worn off

or that the most recent shock had hit him in an less debilitating place. We don't know.

But we do know that when he finally started to rise, the officer shot at him anyway. So what does that tell us?

[Bonobo]

264. You really don't get it.

It actually seemed to me that the "taseree" WAS making it a political statement.

He probably refused to show an id on principle, feeling that it was borderline fascistic. Now you can agree or disagree with that. You can call it petulant, snotty nosed, misguided, brave, foolish or all of the above.

But what you can not do, or rather SHOULD not do, is pretend that this is okay or business as usual. That level of force was not justified by any means - a fact that you have already agreed to I believe.

So what does this boil down to. My opinion is that you and the police have a similar point of view in that you saw the kid's behavior as petulant, spoiled, foolish, etc. I'm familiar with feeling that way towards younger men. You want to smach 'em, teach 'em, wipe the stupid smile off their face, etc. It's a very particularly male kind of feeling and I've flet it plenty of times as have you -let's be honest.

The difference is that the police are professionals who should not give in to that. They are armed with tools that can restrain or punish. Clearly, they are imparting a lesson on said snotty youth. To whit, "do not DARE stand up to our authority, BOY!" ZAP!

Agree or disagree with all or part of what I have said. I KNOW I am right about your attitude and that of the police. It is as clear as day from reading your posts.

This is no minor matter here either. By condoning this kind fascistic, authoritarian use of excessive force where none was warranted will bite you, me, your kids, and everyone else in the ass in the future.

You are a true participant in the decline of "moral values" if you can watch that boy scream like that and then just dismiss is with "he'll be okay" or "he's lucky he didn't get it worse" or "one day he'll learn his lesson".

[pnwmom]

277. A great post, Bonobo. Thank you for saying it so well.

I especially appreciated the last sentence:

You are a true participant in the decline of "moral values" if you can watch that boy scream like that and then just dismiss is with "he'll be okay" or "he's lucky he didn't get it worse" or "one day he'll learn his lesson".

[Bonobo]

281. Well thank you. You have been doing well and making me proud too.

We CAN NOT sit by and watch this behavior happen. This is how a society is lost too. Not just elections, but in actions.

We must expect more from our civil servants. They are us, they reflect us, we reflect them. We must do better or our own children will be forced to become monsters.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

[pnwmom]

287. The big shock for me

is that we're arguing about this stuff here on DU. What could be more elemental? They were torturing the kid -- coldly, deliberately subjecting him to pain, and for no good reason.

I could hardly bring myself to watch that thing a second time -- it was so painful to see the first time -- but I forced myself so that I could be more accurate here. And it was even more appalling the second time around.

Can you imagine what they're doing to suspected terrorists if this is what they're doing to college kids who forget their I.D.'s?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

298. "The big shock" LOL .nt

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

294. Yep, it's definitely personal, now.

I didn't say a lot of what you attribute to me and I don't believe most of what you said.

Was it political speech? It didn't seem like it to me; if it was, I didn't see that part on the tape. The first words are "Don't touch me!" He was already in trouble and the speech was over. It could be that your speculation about the ID is true.

Business as usual: If I don't scream that it's the Crime of the Century, that doesn't mean that I approve. I don't approve of all that the police did. But the first offense is clearly that of the student and I stand by my notion that he had sufficient control of his faculties to put an end to the treatment to which you and others object.

I wouldn't have thought "petulant kid" if I hadn't seen it myself. I've tried to base my opinion of that only on the tape. Frankly, to me the cops looked awfully young, too, and not very bright (but not of ill intent).

imparting a lesson: IF that is what they were doing, we are in agreement. From the tape, I couldn't tell.

Your attitude about my attitude would be insulting if it weren't so wrong. OK, it's insulting, anyway. Have I once said that the cops did the right thing with the repeated shocking or even the first shock? NO!. I've said they were right to arrest him, that the student was mostly responsible for some of his own misfortune, and a lot of stuff about the nature of the taser tool. You aren't the only one, though.

So, is that what it comes down to? Agree with me or you're a fascist? Doesn't that make you the fascist?

[Bonobo]

305. Damn right it's personal.

You said:
The intent of the design is to cause pain without damage in order to gain compliance. Deaths and injury are rare; in the aggregate many lives are saved; it's a good thing.

You advocated the use of a taser as a compliance device. Now read this. It is from the Seattle PD's procedures on use of less lethal devices (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:e7PkAxnwgd4J:www.seattle.gov/Police/Publications/Directives/Less_Lethal_Directive_05-016.pdf+taser+guideline+compliance&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3)

"At the same time, less lethal devices may not be used where statutory requirements
for use of force cannot be satisfied. Examples include use of less lethal devices
against non-combative/non-resistant subjects, or for the purpose of recovering
evidence or compelling compliance, absent suspect resistance justifying the legal
application of necessary force. In no situation are officers required to use less force
than is being threatened by a subject. Less lethal devices provide officers with
alternative resolutions short of the use of deadly force. Factors that may be taken
into account when considering use of these alternatives include, but are not limited
to..."

[pnwmom]

311. In a Seattle suburb, the police tasered a woman for not leaving her car

when they told her to. Turns out that she was in diabetic shock and unable to follow their orders.

Another big lawsuit coming down the pike . . .

[tbyg52]

350. What Bonobo said! nt

[madmusic]

270. This is just trying to maintain order in the library. (They sure fucked that up.)

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

271. LOL, I don't disagree with that.........nt

[cui bono]

282. There was no disorder. n/t

[cui bono]

280. You just no picked up on that?

S/he makes the argument about the cops having a choice between doing B and C, forgetting that the correct option, A, was ever available.

[madmusic]

289. No, it just took me a while to say it.

I was trying to figure out what the agenda could be.

[LifeDuringWartime]

75. "Furthermore, taser is very abuse-able as an implement of torture."

Which is exactly what happened. I think death would almost be preferable to suffering through that.

youtube link (VERY painful to watch)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE&eurl=

[pnwmom]

133. Are you aware that a taser immobilizes the victim?

After the first tase, he was probably unable to stand up -- and yet they kept threatening him with another shock if he didn't. Did you know that a single shock of 3 - 5 seconds can immobilize a victim for up to 15 minutes?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

151. Victim?

I don't know the facts before the video starts. I don't know if he's a victim or a perpetrator. I can hear that he was belligerent, but I don't know what happened before that. Maybe he's a saint.

[defiant1]

161. Jeez....

She is referring to any victim of a taser shock.

Context, my friend. Context. You'll notice that she said "a victim".

Edited for spelling....

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

169. I understand that, thank you.

I was trying to point out the bias in the choice of the word "victim." I don't think it was out of context, but I guess I could have been more clear.

[pnwmom]

178. You are right, I was using that word in a general way.

But I also think he was a victim in this case, in particular. I can't know whether the first tase was justified, but I know the repeated shocks were not.

[pnwmom]

177. He's a victim of police brutality, no matter what happened earlier.

Once he had been subdued -- handcuffed and immobilized by the taser -- they had no justification for the repeated tasings. No reasonable person would immobilize a suspect with a taser, then threaten to shock him again unless he stood up.

The whole point of a taser is to stop a violent offender from attacking; it's supposed to shock them into NOT moving.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

185. refuted in 204

So he should have complied.

[pnwmom]

187. You haven't refuted anything. Show me where it says

that police are supposed to use a taser on a subject who is already subdued and lying on the floor. Show me where it says it's okay to use on a handcuffed subject who isn't kicking or otherwise striking out?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

200. The immobility part.

You keep saying it but it isn't true, as shown in post 204.

[pnwmom]

219. The medical research disagrees with you.

So do the manufacturers. And now they have a couple models that COMPLETELY immobilize the victim.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2004/nf20041118_7014_db014.htm

From Business Week:

With the X26 and the M26 models, the only stun guns on the market that pack enough power to completely immobilize their victims, Taser has next to no competition. It operates at 50% profit margins, and it has only begun to penetrate its potential markets.

Just 10% of U.S. law-enforcement officers and only 2% of all law-enforcement officers worldwide use the stun guns. Expect these numbers to change fast, however, both the company and analysts say. In the U.S., this has grown by between 1 to 2 percentage points a year. And overseas, police in Sweden and Finland as well as U.K. special-police units have received approval to use Tasers. In the coming months, Taser anticipates that police in France, Spain, and Australia will get permission to use the guns.

BIG TARGETS. Taser is also looking beyond traditional law enforcement, and sees the Defense Dept., airlines, and consumers as potential customers. All this would make the stock extremely appealing -- if it weren't already so highly priced.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

224. No medical research there.

They must not have used one of those models in the library, 'cause he was making quite a fuss.

[pnwmom]

237. I was referring to the article in the Lancet that you had

already dismissed as being based on older models of the Taser. This Business Week article is about newer models. Both the older and the newer models produce some degree of immobilization. That is the purpose -- to immobilize the subject so that the police can quickly move in and handcuff him.

You can clearly see on the video that the victim has handcuffs, is hanging limply, and yet the police continue to shock him. I just watched it again. If I were the victim, even if I COULD move, I would have been afraid to stand up. I would have expected those officers to just tase me again. And there is a point in the video where it appears that's just what happened -- it appears that just as the victim is rising, the police tase him again. This is totally disgusting. I can't believe a reasonable person can watch that video and not be horrified.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

240. OK, I'll concede this:

With respect, I think you're wrong about the immobilization thing and I wish you'd stop reposting it until you can really verify it.

I CAN AGREE WITH YOU that at some point it appears that he was rising and was stung again. I do see that and that does look wrong to me. OTOH, it does show, I think, that he could have stood up before but was being stubborn.

Anyway, one of two things was the case. Either he was unable to comply or he was able to refuse to comply even after being shocked. The police should have recognized that and carried him out at that point.

[pnwmom]

251. Just because he finally started to stand up does NOT mean

that he could have stood up earlier. It might mean that the effects of the most recent shock had just worn off. It might mean that the most recent shock had been directed at an area that involved different muscles. But it does not prove that he was capable of standing BEFORE he finally did.

You acknowledge seeing them shoot him again as he began to rise. You say that you think he didn't stand before then because he was being stubborn. I think he was afraid that they would do exactly what they did -- shoot him again.

And I'm not going to stop posting that the Taser immobilizes people. Just google "Taser" and "immobilize" and see what is there. There is a mountain of information available on that subject.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

263. So?

I don't think I have anything to add. It would just be referring to old posts.

[pnwmom]

279. The old posts contained no substantive information.

It's fine not to add to them.

[readmoreoften]

201. You scare me. Lucky he didn't get worse for WHAT? Being in a library without a student ID card?

Talking back to the cops now justifies electrocution. How about the students at the end of the tape that they were threatening with tazing for asking for badge numbers?

So what if he was "stupid", he still didn't do anything wrong. See that's the thing. In a free country you can do things like tell a cop that they are infringing on your rights without getting shock treatments in retaliation.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

207. such hyperbole!

Electrocution is death by electric shock. Nobody is advocating on-the-spot electrocutions!

From the tape, I conclude that he did do something wrong. Specifically, he intentionally disobeyed the orders of the police. You can tell the cops that you think they are wrong and in violation of your rights, but you still must comply. Gwerlain explained it beautifully in #203.

[readmoreoften]

227. The police are hired to uphold the law. The police were not upholding any law.

There is no law supporting their behavior. Any resident of the state of California can use the library per the library's policy. If a police officer demands that I kiss his shoes, hop on one foot, or make him lunch, I do not have to comply. Furthermore, if I refuse a police request that doesn't give the police free license to assault me. When you are involved in civil disobedience, the cops handcuff you and drag you away if you refuse to comply with their orders. They do not risk your life by giving you a series of electric shocks. A series of electric shocks can kill you-- hence electrocution.

But your entire argument is disingenuous and you know it. You have no idea what that kid did or didn't do if he did or didn't attempt to comply. It's not on the tape. You're fabricating your argument out of whole cloth.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

234. It's getting personal, as I suppose it had to eventually.

I don't think I've said anything I don't believe. I've said all along I didn't see what the person did to attract the attention of the police. But the first 20 seconds or so of the tape is much more than enough to justify his arrest, imho, regardless of what happened before. I've also said the police used poor judgement but that the subject of the arrest could have made his troubles stop at any moment, had he not been so stubborn.

The taser is not capable of electrocution.

[pnwmom]

241. Are you disputing that taser shocks have killed people?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

247. Nope.

That is why I was against tasers for a couple of years after they came out. Since then, procedures and training have improved tremendously, and the technology itself has also improved quite a lot. They are are much less dangerous when used as intended (!) than they used to be. Also, at the risk of repeating myself, their use has saved many lives.

[pnwmom]

261. And the new ones, that "pack enough power to

completely immobilize" -- you think they are safer, too?

Here's another bit from Taser's own warning materials. They warn about breathing risks related to repeated use of the Taser:

Breathing Impairment. Extended or repeated TASER device exposures should be avoided where practical. Although existing studies on conscious human volunteers indicate subjects continue to breathe during extended TASER device applications, it is conceivable that the muscle contractions may impair a subject's ability to breathe. In tests conducted on anesthetized pigs repeated TASER device applications did cause cessation of breathing during TASER device discharges, although it is unclear what impact the anesthesia or other factors may have had on the test results. Accordingly, where appropriate and practical, it is advisable to use expedient physical restraint in conjunction with the TASER device to minimize the overall duration of stress, exertion, and potential breathing impairment particularly on individuals exhibiting symptoms of excited delirium and/or exhaustion.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

274. Yes, I think they're getting safer......nt

[pnwmom]

313. They can't be getting safer as long as idiots are using them

and not following the rules that restrict their use to subduing violent offenders.

Here's a great case from my area. Note that it involved shooting a diabetic woman, (a Microsoft employee involved in a rear end collision), near her transplanted kidney. Nice touch.

Also, note that she was able to scream -- just like the student -- but otherwise unable to respond.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/269285_taser06.html?source=rss

Leila Fuchs contends in her lawsuit, filed in King County Superior Court, that officers used excessive force and were negligent in the application of the Taser, a device that delivers a painful, 50,000-volt jolt via two probes attached to wires.

SNIP

In the court documents, Fuchs said she suffered a diabetic episode because of a low blood sugar level and rear-ended the car in front of her.

Police arrived and found a non-responsive Fuchs inside her locked vehicle. The officers assumed Fuchs was drunk because she would not obey their commands to open the door.

Officers responded by shattering her passenger side window and shooting her with a Taser when she did not exit the vehicle on her own.

The Taser probes lodged in Fuchs' arm and stomach, not far from her transplanted kidney, according to the court documents.

Fuchs screamed but was otherwise unable to respond."

SNIP

And there were more damning details. Apparently the local fire dept. immediately recognized the symptoms of diabetic shock, and a blood test showed no alcohol in her system.

http://www.copwatch.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14057

"Another officer dragged Fuchs from the car, put her on the ground and handcuffed her. The lawsuit contends that the officers then had to drag Fuchs to a patrol car, where they placed her in the back seat.

When Redmond firefighters arrived, they immediately recognized that Fuchs was diabetic and that she was suffering from a low blood sugar level. A portable breath test administered by police confirmed that Fuchs had not been drinking."

[madmusic]

252. Stubborn = contempt of cop, VERY serious

Tasers - Part II

This year Amnesty International released a report on Tasers. (download PDF here) The report also looks at the systematic misuse of tasers by police and in prisons. It points out that there is a widespread policy of using tasers as a routine compliance tool on subjects who are passively resisting or “perceived” to not be complying with orders. Taser misuse is increasingly linked with unnecessary punishment, degradation and torture. In part I of the Taser series, Law and Disorder hosts spoke with Ed Jackson. (listen here) This week we go to Portland, Oregon where during Amnesty International’s General Annual Meeting, co-host Dalia Hashad caught up with Amnesty International spokeswoman and Taser expert Mona Cadena in Pioneer Square.

Guest - Mona Cadena - Amnesty International spokeswoman and Taser expert.

Download/Listen <8 MB>


http://lawanddisorder.org/?cat=3

[Crim_n al]

370. If you want to pedantically refer to dictionaries it does.

But many people speak of being electrocuted when they have received electrical shocks.

And when I was hospitalised after a severe shock which caused burning, the doctors wrote that I had been electrocuted.

The final judge of meaning of a word is not a dictionary, it's the people who use the word. The dictionaries just try to keep up.

[pnwmom]

253. You're not making any sense.

You acknowledge that the taser can in fact be lethal.

But in other posts you claim that it only causes pain. And you also say here that the student, who was subject to repeated shocks, even though he was limp and not fighting, was "lucky he didn't get worse."

What kind of country do you want to be living in? How can you justify the repeated use of potentially lethal force on a non-violent, hand-cuffed subject?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

283. By design, it's non-lethal

Yet there are obviously cases where deaths result. The intent of the design is to cause pain without damage in order to gain compliance. Deaths and injury are rare; in the aggregate many lives are saved; it's a good thing. Death did not occur in this case, so I don't see the point of going on about that.

"lucky he didn't get worse." By that I do not mean that he deserved worse. I mean that, from what I've seen, if the police didn't have tasers and he acted as he did, he almost certainly would have been beaten senseless.

I want to live in a country where people can exercise all of their rights without restriction, and where people are arrested when they scream obscenities at police in the library. Call me crazy.

[pnwmom]

325. Why would the police have "almost certainly" beaten him senseless?

Because the young man deserved it? Or because most police are criminals? Because it is still against the law for police to beat up hand-cuffed and prone suspects.

I don't have any problem with the student being arrested -- just with him being tortured after he was hand-cuffed and prone on the floor. And with him being taunted by the police to "stand up" as they repeatedly directed immobilizing shocks to his legs and buttocks.

[burythehatchet]

275. may your testicles be jammed with 10,000 volts some day

[EFerrari]

341. I agree. You have to be a fool to be brown in Westwood.

I've been brown in Westwood and it was one of the stupidest things I've ever done.

[Zodiak]

369. Tasers have killed

And for those with bad hearts, a taser can kill if it strikes you anywhere on the body and delivers its jolt. It is a deadly weapon.

A LOT of Americans, young and old, have bad hearts. In fact, a third of us will die from it.

A lot of people forget their IDs and foreign national students aren't necessarily familiar with the American system of compliance. This is senstitivity training that campus cops SHOULD get.

The use of a taser in this case was excessive and crossed over into cruelty with the second shot. They put this guy's life at risk just to get him out of the library and would probably be laughing about it in the office if the other students didn't record it.

I've seen cops taser a guy over a dozen times after he was handcuffed. The guy didn't struggle anymore than to try to get away from the unbearable pain they were putting him through. The cops were laughing at him as they did it, and the hotel made all of the employees who witnessed it sign a form precluding them from telling ANYONE what they had seen.

The last paragraph is anecdotal, of course, but it has solidified my opinion about these weapons. They are not toys, and they are not legal torture devices. They are potentially deadly weapons and should not be used cavalierly as I have seen in many, many news reports and my own personal experience.

If the police cannot use these weapons properly, then they should have the taser taken away from them. Too bad, because tasers COULD be useful.

[blogslut]

6. Americablog

Has a YouTube of the incident

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/oh-my-god-ucla-student-tased-in.html

This is terrifying.

[readmoreoften]

8. Here check out the 6 MINUTE LONG VIDEO of them stunning this guy.

Is this what happens when brown people don't turn in their library books on time? Beyond fucked up. Well beyond.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5800064335645555787&q=UCLA+police&hl=en

[Zomby Woof]

10. The tasering was unnecessary

But it must be said that the student was an idiot for not complying with the request. He was asked more than once for I.D. or to leave, and he was hostile with his refusals.

Should he have been tasered? No. That is where the UCLA police abdicated their responsibility and went for the quick fix.

Was he profiled? Possibly, but plenty of white people have been tasered wrongly for similarly weak reasons. His ethnicity is not unusual in L.A.

The police were wrong, but the student is not completely blameless. He was given AMPLE opportunity to produce I.D. or leave.

More patience and persistence on the part of the police would have been the best solution, but then again, so would actually getting off your ass and leaving when the library is CLOSED.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Alright.

So tell the student to bring his ID card next time.

And as for the cops, charge them with assault and sentence them to several years in prison.

[readmoreoften]

20. Thanks for making excuses for police brutality. THE LIBRARY WASN'T CLOSED

Why don't you watch the video? Notice all the students sitting peacefully at their computers? Notice that the student is in HANDCUFFS as they taser him. What? If you quote the Patriot Act to the cops you "deserve it"? How do you know that this student isn't afraid he'll get MUCH WORSE treatment once he's out of the public view. They're obviously tasing him for their own pleasure after a certain point. Is he still partially to blame after he's crying NO PLEASE NO PLEASE? Is it possible that after he's been tased in handcuffs 4 or 5 times that HE CAN'T MOVE. Notice a cop telling another student who is asking for badge numbers that if he doesn't move back (he's about 3 feet away from the officer) they'll tase him too. Is he wrong to ask for a badge number?

Your response is exactly the reason why I'm afraid of Americans.

[nini]

28. You must have missed this part of his post

"Should he have been tasered? No"

[Marnieworld]

43. I didn't know about the handcuffs

Even sicker than I thought.

[Greyhound]

67. You and the rest of the world, the sane parts anyway. n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nini]

59. "singled him out".

Why? the video doesn't show what happened before. That's part of the problem with these videos.


The tasering was over the top - the police most likely over did things, but I'd like to know what started this whole thing.

[pnwmom]

326. Accounts differ. Student eyewitnesses quoted in the Bruin

said that the student was working at a computer when someone asked him for ID. (Supposedly it was a "random check." The student happened to be an American of Middle Eastern descent.) When he couldn't produce it, he was asked to leave, and when he didn't leave quickly enough, the officer went for reinforcements. The student had already picked up his backpack and was in the process of leaving when the police arrived and began to grab him. He yelled at them to let go and they tased him. Then he was on the floor, screaming and crying, and the video shows the rest.

[MadHound]

35. According to eyewitness testimony

The student was leaving when the police came back. Instead of letting him go, they decided to taser him, multiple times.

[nashville_brook]

91. pro-police brutality folks don't care about "The Facts"

inconvenient... gets in the way of their *Ultra-violence* fantasies.

back away slowly and try not to intimidate them. they're dangerous and unpredictable when confused with so-called "facts."

[nini]

122. Who is pro-police brutality?

:shrug:



Your whole post is insulting.

I don't think ANYONE here agrees those officers weren't over the top and dont' need to be disciplined.

To comment that people sometimes do things that get them in trouble is not out of line - it is reality. Saying that doesn't mean the force wasn't excessive. It means just that - perhaps people should do what they are told in a situation like that and add to the escalation of the situation.

But I guess you see things in black and white only. Anything out of your focus is supporting police brutality and supported by the ultra violent :eyes:

[readmoreoften]

202. Um. There are people here who say the student should've been tazed more.

Read the thread.

[nini]

209. um.. I did ..

perhaps the police brutality comment should have been made where someone actually supports force.


the post was out of place in this subthread.

[pnwmom]

243. You haven't read enough posts then.

At least one frequent poster does NOT agree that the officers were over the top. He says that he doesn't know what happened BEFORE the video, and that might justify what happened to the victim. He also said he doesn't think the victim cooperated well enough, or said the right words, to get the police to stop. And he refuses to believe the medical research or the company's own claims that the Taser can immobilize the victim (making him incapable of following the officer's orders to stand up).

[nini]

291. most were made after my original post

and I still feel the post I questioned was in the wrong place and targeting the wrong people IMHO.

[pnwmom]

127. The taser probably immobilized him. How could he comply?

According to the Bruin article, immobilization can last up to 15 minutes from a single shock:

A Taser delivers volts of low-amperage energy to the body, causing a disruption of the body's electrical energy pulses and locking the muscles, according to a report by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"It's an electrical shock. ... It causes pain," Young said, adding that the drive stun would not likely demobilize a person or cause residual pain after the shock was administered. Young also said a Taser is less forceful than a baton, for example.

But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.

"It is a real mistake to treat a Taser as some benign thing that painlessly brings people under control," said Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney at the ACLU of Southern California.

[1monster]

150. According to the article, he was on his way out (heading toward the

door) when the officer grabbed him.

And the library was not closed. It was open to student, faculty, and staff. He apparently didn't have his I.D. with him. Perhaps he took too long to discover that and head for the door. In the video, he repeatedly yelled, "I said I would leave!"

This was nothing more than torturing bullies with badges.

[readmoreoften]

199. I mean we're talking about a kid who couldn't produce a STUDENT ID

I'm faculty at a university, you know how many times I've misplaced my ID or took a long time to find it at the bottom of my bag. This is a perfect case of Papers Please.

[pnwmom]

327. I'm glad that you've been posting here, readmoreoften.

I read a post from another faculty member with a very different take on the matter. It's been discouraging to see how many DU'ers don't seem to understand the seriousness of the issues involved.

[pnwmom]

319. The library wasn't closed. The Middle Eastern-American student

was "randomly" picked for an ID check and asked to leave when he didn't have it on him.

[readmoreoften]

11. Phone number to the chancellor's office: 310-825-2151

call and let them know how you feel. I just did.

[shance]

106. Kudos to you RMO*** Just called and they are getting a lot of phone calls

of outrage.

Please everyone reading this, call the Chancellor's office. Taser's need to be outlawed with this kind of abuse. Its actually more of a delayed murder. It's clear many people have died related of course to they're being tasered.

This is beyond horrific and outrageous.

[tishaLA]

13. The Daily Bruin--our UCLA newspaper--

has good coverage of this today

Tabatabainejad was also stunned with the Taser when he was already handcuffed, said Carlos Zaragoza, a third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident.

"(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed." <snip>

The incident, which Zaragoza described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed.

"I realize when looking at these kind of arrest tapes that they don't always show the full picture. ... But that six minutes that we can watch just seems like it's a ridiculous amount of force for someone being escorted because they forgot their BruinCard," said Ali Ghandour, a fourth-year anthropology student.

"It certainly makes you wonder if something as small as forgetting your BruinCard can eventually lead to getting Tased several times in front of the library," he added.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

[pnwmom]

123. The taser can IMMOBILIZE the victim, according to Bruin article.

This was torture, plain and simple.

"A Taser delivers volts of low-amperage energy to the body, causing a disruption of the body's electrical energy pulses and locking the muscles, according to a report by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"It's an electrical shock. ... It causes pain," Young said, adding that the drive stun would not likely demobilize a person or cause residual pain after the shock was administered. Young also said a Taser is less forceful than a baton, for example.

But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.

"It is a real mistake to treat a Taser as some benign thing that painlessly brings people under control," said Peter Eliasberg, managing attorney at the ACLU of Southern California.

[PVnRT]

14. Fuck the L.A. police

They give the cops out there who actually follow the rules and do their jobs right a bad name.

[tishaLA]

17. It's not the "LA Police"

It's the UCLA poiice. DIfferent entity entirely.

[Kerrytravelers]

21. Doesn't the LAPD provide the trained police for UCLA? They do for USC.

At least, they did when I attended USC 94-98 and 01-04.

[tishaLA]

37. No. We have our own police here

UCPD.

[oasis]

54. Since USC cops are authorized to use deadly force they are required to

be trained by LAPD. The USC campus is enveloped in a high crime area and UCLA is in an affluent neighborhood....faaaar across town.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. If they are trained by LAPD

that MIGHT BE part of the problem, as LAPD has a slight problem wiht playing well with others and actually following civil rights

[pnwmom]

331. More than a slight problem, I'd say.

[Kerrytravelers]

66. Yes, I know since I earned both my BA and MA from USC.

And really, the area has earned a reputation that isn't exactly fair. Yes, there are certainly crime statistics, but the overwhelming majority of the people living in the USC area actually work at USC, as it is one of the largest employers in Los Angeles and certainly the largest employer of the area. Over the years, there have been several opportunities for the college to move it's campus to Malibu, since USC owns quite a large parcel of land in Malibu. However, the commitment to the area has kept it in LA. As an employee of the university, your children have an opportunity to attend USC tuition-free (for most employees) or on a sliding scale that is very low on the paying end of the scale. Keeping the campus safe actually benefits the local residents, and they certainly understand that. In addition, USC provides magnet schools and academic support to local schools, volunteers to local programs and area beautification.

Trojans and those connected to the campus get a bit touchy when told we're in a high crime area. I, as a woman who is very small in stature, always felt completely safe on campus, day or night. I have been a student and an employee of the university and always lived in the area as a undergrad. I didn't live there as a grad as I was now married living nearby at a commutable distance for both my day job and my husband's. There would be no reason to move. Otherwise, I would have moved back to campus in a heartbeat.

[oasis]

84. SC was the principle site of the '84 Olympics. That's when overall security

in the area took a quantum leap. The D.A. started a major crackdown on drug dealing, vagrancy, bookmaking and gang activity. Law abiding citizens in the community were able to regain control.

I'm never fearful when visiting old friends in the area.(daytime):-)

[RagingInMiami]

125. Fuck the LA Police anyway

Earlier this month, they were videotaped spraying pepper spray on a suspect who was already handcuffed.

[tishaLA]

165. yes, I'm well aware of that since I live in LA

but I believe in putting the responsibility where it belongs for each incident instead of tossing it carelessly about.

[Kerrytravelers]

It's a shame that the honest police get a bad rep because of some others behaviors.

Maybe I'm biased because we have sear friends (who are bothers) who are cops, although not in the LA area. Whenever they hear of events like this, they cringe because they know what it's like to have the choices of others reflect badly upon the department as a whole.

[Kerrytravelers]

18. dupe

Sorry. I hit the post message button a bit too fast.

[Kerrytravelers]

19. dupe

.

[slaveplanet]

23. perhaps the bigger question here

is why a library, at a publicly funded major university, should close at all, and if not, why the 11pm non student curfew? Have they had a big problem with homeless trying to keep a library roof over their heads? Why is it even a problem for non students to be there if they are not sleeping, or trying to take a nap. Couldn't the librarian call if they encounter a problem such as that? Why the need for mandatory security details other than to roust the citizenry? It's an ominous trend.

[Buzz Clik]

29. Note that the library was still packed.

[Kerrytravelers]

52. When I was a student at USC (across town from UCLA) they use to ask to see ID

after 9 pm when entering the library. If you didn't have it, you signed in. It was a way a monitoring who was in the library.

However, I always felt that seemed a bit silly. The unsupervised bookstacks were always locked at a certain time at night, but the open library area always had security guards walking around and student DPS walking around. We were completely safe. Our libraries were packed 24-7. I know UCLA can't be any different. I do know that USC invests a bit more in security to appease parents who are concerned about "the area," and therefore we do have lower crime statistics. However, most of USC is staffed by people who live the this dreaded "area" :eyes: and I always felt quite safe on campus.

Even though USC is private, I see no problem with non-USC students/faculty/staff using the libraries.



Edited for typos.

[jpwhite]

24. my gut feeling is that

these guys had been involved in a different incident before and something bad happened. Either way, that's just a theory. I don't believe that anyone should get tasered unless they have a weapon and are indicating that they are going to use it (a knife, bat, club, etc.). This response is too extreme for removing someone from a library. I used to work with people who are mentally retarded and we were taught non-harmful methods of restraining people. This is riduculous.

James
[e-mail]

[pnwmom]

135. That's right, jpwhite. There are non-harmful methods of

restraining people. And this guy simply needed to be carried from the library. Instead, they shocked him -- which has the effect of immobilizing the victim for up to 15 minutes -- and then demanded that he stand up -- which he probably couldn't do.

[Swamp Rat]

25. The 'police' are lucky the crowd of students didn't rip them to shreads for

TORTURING that poor guy. I hope those 'police' go to prison.

[Bonobo]

58. Swamp Rat, those pigs should have been swarmed and their tasers

shoved up their fascistic assholes!

[crikkett]

121. while the students were chanting at them!

People don't understand the power that a chanting group of people have. And kids nowadays aren't taught to stand up for each other. They're taught complacency.

Unfortunately that's when a taser really does become a cattle prod, which is what the cops were using it for.

[Swamp Rat]

164. I would have screamed "NO TORTURE!!! NO TORTURE!!! NO TORTURE!!!"

NO TORTURE!!! NO TORTURE!!! NO TORTURE!!! ... ad infinitum.

[crikkett]

118. here, here! That was my reaction too -

I'd have been making a lot more noise than those students were. But then I'm older and a lot more pissed off than scared.

[MamaBear]

126. Amen, Swamp Rat.

That was a disgusting display and the "officers" involved should go find a job in the sanitation industry. They do not deserve the title "officer" and they certainly need to be disarmed immediately.

That was horrifying.

[AX10]

258. Hundreds of students could have with ease tackled and held these....

America haters down!

[Xithras]

39. A LITTLE (very small) defense of the officers.

Libraries in general, and college libraries in particular, can be a security nightmare for colleges and universities. They tend to be a magnet for homeless and people with mental issues looking for shelter, and in many instances they have proven to be fertile hunting grounds for rapists and other violent criminals. When universities and colleges implement policies that limit library access to students with identification cards, it isn't some fascistic idea they're pulling out of their asses, they are legitimate policies being implemented to combat very real threats to their students.

In this particular case, I disagree with the officers tasering him, but I do agree that the person needed to be arrested. He was in a restricted access library without proper identification, became verbally combative when confronted by the schools legitimate security officers, refused to leave when ordered to, and then began resisting their efforts to remove him when attempts were made to do so against his will. It's unfortunate that the video doesn't actually show him for most of its length, but if you listen to the officers, they clearly say MANY TIMES, both before and after the taserings, that he needs to LEAVE the library. He kept responding that he would leave, but when the officers gave him the chance to do so (and they did repeatedly), he wouldn't move.

Tasers should be reserved for physically hostile and potentially violent suspects. This guy should have just been handcuffed, dragged to the nearest police cruiser, and locked up. If he actually was a student (something the articles don't actually establish solidly), he should have had his library privledges revoked for the semester and been placed on behavioral probation (or whatever UCLA's equivalent is). While these officers went WAY over the line in subduing him, the students behavior was equally unacceptable.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. The person should not have been arrested.

It was OK for him to be there. He wasn't doing anything wrong.

The cops, however, should be arrested.

"If he actually was a student (something the articles don't actually establish solidly)"

Did you not read the numerous parts of the article that says he was a student?

[Xithras]

73. You are wrong.

It was NOT ok for him to be there. UCLA has a clearly stated policy that only current students with ID cards are permitted in the libraries at night. Whether or not he was a current student, he did not have an ID card and therefore did not have authorization to use the library. Without that ID card, the police had no way to identify him as a student. When an officer of the school, a legally appointed representative of the campus, asked him to leave and he refused, it became a trespassing situation. He had no legal right to be in that building at that point, and by refusing to leave he was committing a criminal act.

Whether or not he was harming anybody, or whether or not he was doing something necessary for his education, are questions ultimately irrelevant to this discussion. I've been to UCLA, and the requirements for using the library are posted and well known, as are the punishments for violating them (talk too loudly in the study rooms and you can be ejected, for example). The student created the problem by not properly fulfilling his responsibilities as a student (carrying the ID and presenting it within school buildings). When asked to leave, the student compounded that problem by failing to act appropriately. If he needed to study there, he should have left to get his ID and returned later. There was no excuse for him to get combative and argue with the campus police when they were simply trying to enforce a posted and reasonable campus safety rule.

By the way, that article has been edited. The updated version refers to him as a student more than the original did. There's an acknowledgement that the article has been updated on the page itself.

[LifeDuringWartime]

81. He didn't refuse to leave

At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

[Xithras]

85. You're not getting it

Once the CSO's ask you to leave and you refuse, you have committed a criminal act. The CSO's have the authority to eject anyone from any campus owned building if they're violating the universities policy. By refusing to leave immediately when he was originally ordered to, he became a criminal and was therefore subject to arrest.

Campus Police officers in California are full-fledged state police, and they had every legal right to detain him once they arrived. He had committed a criminal act, and their job was to figure out who he was and why he did it. That's why we HAVE campus police.

They tried to detain him, and he became combative. They tried to escort him out, and he became combative. No matter how you look at it, this was a situation that HE created and fueled. I've already said that I disagree with the decision to use the stun guns on him, but he is in no way an innocent party to this.

[Bonobo]

87. When I was in college, I was arrested at a protest. Should I have been tasered?

We occupied the Chancellor's office to protest that the University was invested in South Africa and got them to divest.

It was a peaceful action. We refused to leave the Chancellor's office and forced the police to carry us out. Nearly 100 of us were arrested and later the University did divest (oh, and by the way, Apartheid stopped eventually as well).

If this tasering action was okay, then that is exactly what you are advocating that they can do against peaceful protesters who refuse to leave an office building. Is this okay with all of you? What about you, Xithar? You're a prof, you said? You advocate tasering protesters too?

[malaise]

92. We not only occupied a building

We flew a flag at half staff. On the other hand we did face some tear gas for protests at the campus gate in the 70s. This is wrong.

[readmoreoften]

208. And people wonder why today's students don't rise up in protest.

Schools are a fucking police state.

[Xithras]

94. I NEVER said that I agreed with the Tasering. Quite the opposite.

I said very clearly that the tasering was wrong, and stated my belief that tasers should be reserved for people who are being violent. I simply believe that the students behavior was itself wrong, and that the officers were correct in arresting him. He should have left when the CSO's initially told him to. When he refused to do so, and then insisted on making a scene and refused to identify himself when the police showed up, he created the situation himself. The arrest was legitimate, the excessive force to bring him under control wasn't.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. How do you feel about the cops...

singling the victim out for his ethnicity, hmm?

[Xithras]

98. Can you show me some evidence that it happened?

As I said, I've been in UCLA libraries. The CSO's sweep the libraries at 11PM and check the ID's of everyone.

[RagingInMiami]

176. And you don't find that unconstitutional?

Considering that you don't even have to provide an ID when voting?

[Xithras]

192. Not at all.

Voting is a public activity that everyone has a constitutional right to do. While this university is publicly funded, it's not public property the same way a park or a voting booth would be. The use of their facilities is restricted to their students, and because of that restriction the University can request that people on their property identify themselves as such. Most universities even write these restrictions into their admissions agreements, and the students agree to abide by them as a term of admission. If they don't want to identify themselves, they forfeit the right to use the restricted access libraries, and should instead use the public library for their research.

Ownership by the state does not give the public free reign to access a piece of property. If you don't believe me, try walking across an elementary school playground during school hours, or hopping the fence at a military base, or taking a stroll through the judges chambers at the local courthouse, or even camping in a national forest without paying your fees. In each of these cases, you can expect to be stopped, and you will be asked to produce documentation proving that you have a right to be wherever you happen to be. At UCLA, the CLEARLY POSTED form of identification required to access the library is the Bruincard.

As I said in another post, women have been raped, and both students & employees have been attacked and mugged in school libraries. These facilities limit access for good reason.

[RagingInMiami]

205. Bullshit

"At UCLA, the CLEARLY POSTED form of identification required to access the library is the Bruincard."

Nowhere does it say that in the UCLA Library User Rights and Responsibilities, which are listed below in their entirety:

UCLA is a public institution, which means its Library facilities and collections are accessible to residents of the state of California as well as people from across the country and around the world. However, the Library's primary mission is to support the instructional, reference, research, and administrative needs of the university's students, faculty, and staff; these users have first priority to use library facilities, resources, and services. Persons not affiliated with the university such as guests, visitors, and members of the general public may enter library facilities to use collections and services; any other use of the facilities by non-affiliated users is not permitted and may be considered trespassing.

The UCLA Library has adopted the following regulations to protect the rights of both users and staff; to create an appropriate academic atmosphere; and to provide a safe, comfortable, and convenient environment. All library users are expected to contribute to an atmosphere that is conducive to study and to respect the rights and needs of others. In addition, all individuals on university property are required to abide by both university policies and campus regulations (UCLA Regulations on Activities, Registered Organizations, and Use of Properties) and UC policies applying to campus activities, organizations, and students.

The Library will refuse access to its facilities, resources, or services to anyone who disrupts the use of the facilities by others or is disrespectful to other library users or employees. People who are unwilling to abide by these regulations will be asked to leave, and those refusing to do so will be subject to removal by security personnel and may not be allowed further access to the libraries.

Specific Policies

Animals
No animals are allowed in libraries other than those assisting persons with disabilities.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Cell Phones and Pagers
Cell phones and pagers without earphones or loud enough to disturb others are prohibited. Library users must set cell phones and pagers on nonaudible signals and may use cell phones only in designated public telephone areas.
UCLA Policy

Children and Minors
Library collections and services are not designed to meet the needs of children or minors. Individuals under the age of eighteen who are not registered UCLA students must be accompanied by an adult. Adults who bring children or minors into libraries are responsible for monitoring their activities and regulating their behavior.
UCLA Policy

Clothing
Appropriate dress is required. Shirts and shoes must be worn in the libraries.
UCLA Policy

Computing, Networking, and Information Resources
All those who use computers in the libraries are expected to take proper care of the equipment. When accessing library computers and networks, users are expected to comply with the university's Communications Technology Services' Acceptable Use Policy, which governs the use of computing, networking, and information resources by UCLA students, faculty, and staff.
UCLA Policy

Copyright and Intellectual Property
Library users are expected to observe copyright and intellectual property laws.
UCLA Policy

Destroying or Damaging Materials, Equipment, Software, or Facilities
Theft, mutilation, and/or vandalism of library materials, equipment, and furniture are offenses subject to fines, replacement costs, and/or legal action. Following are examples of actions that are prohibited (not a comprehensive list).

* Destroying, mutilating, or defacing materials.
* Damaging hardware or equipment.
* Misusing furniture or facilities.
* Intentionally introducing viruses into any computer system.
* Tampering with software or changing equipment settings.

UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Displays and Exhibits
The use of library facilities for displays without advance authorization from the appropriate Library personnel is prohibited.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Disruptive Behavior
Disruptive behavior that interferes with the study and research of others, both library users and staff, in any public area of the libraries is prohibited. Examples include:

* Creating excessive noise.
* Harassing others, including verbal or physical attack.
* Odor constituting a nuisance or health and safety concern.
* Bringing in personal belongings not essential to the research undertaking, such as bedrolls, carts, frame backpacks, or large duffel bags.
* Engaging in behavior that disturbs others or interferes with the appropriate use of the facility, including inappropriate sexual behavior.

UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Drugs and Alcohol
The use of unauthorized drugs is prohibited in or around the libraries. The use of alcohol is prohibited except during special authorized events sponsored by the Library or the university.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Electronic Devices
Radios, compact disc players, games, and other electronic devices without earphones or loud enough to disturb others are prohibited.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Emergencies
In the event of fire, severe weather, power outages, or other emergency situations, library and security staff will alert building occupants to the procedures for evacuation or taking shelter. All fire alarms require immediate exit by all building occupants.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Entertainment
Users may not use library facilities or services for entertainment purposes.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Filming and Photography
Use of Library facilities for filming and photography without advance authorization from the appropriate Library personnel is prohibited.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Food and Drink
Bringing food into the libraries and consuming it on the premises is prohibited. Food delivery is prohibited, except for catered events scheduled through the Library's administrative offices.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Non-alcoholic beverages in spill-proof containers are permitted in most areas of the libraries. Exceptions include special collections and archives in all libraries.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Library Staff Equipment and Offices
Library staff equipment, telephones, and offices are available for use only by staff.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Loitering
Loitering is prohibited in accordance with California Penal Code Section 647c-e.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Meetings and Events
Use of library facilities for formal extracurricular meetings and events without advance authorization from appropriate Library personnel is prohibited.
UCLA Policy

Personal Property
Users are responsible for their personal property at all times and should never leave personal belongings unattended. The UCLA Library is not liable for loss of or damage to personal property.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Privacy
The release of personal information about any library user, including patron activities such as books checked out, fines, etc., to other individuals or organizations whether in person or online, unless authorized by the cardholder, is prohibited. The Library never reveals this information to any third party except by a warrant, court order, or subpoena authorized by federal, state, or local law. All access to and use of personal information is restricted to performing library business.

In the case of digital information resources that are licensed from external vendors by UCLA and/or the California Digital Library, every attempt is made to include user information protection in the license agreement. When users follow a link to another site, they are subject to the privacy policy of the new site and should review the privacy statements and policies at these external sites.

To guard against unauthorized access, maintain data accuracy, and promote the correct use of information, the UCLA Library has implemented physical, electronic, and managerial procedures to safeguard and secure the information it collects online. However, no guarantee can be given that these procedures will always protect against invalid access or improper activity. For this reason, information is not kept beyond the term of its primary use, and where possible, data elements that might cause activities to be linked to individual users are encrypted or deleted.

A "cookie" is information stored on a computer by a Web server and used to customize a Web service in some way. UCLA Library Web servers do not use cookie technology and do not place cookies on users' computers. Some databases use temporary cookies; the UCLA Library, however, does not retain these cookies.

The information collected via the Ask a UC Librarian online chat reference services is kept in the strictest confidence and helps provide and improve these services. All access to and use of personal information is restricted to performing library business. While answering a user's question, librarians may refer him or her to Web sites that are not maintained by the UCLA Library. When linked to another site, users are subject to the privacy policy of the new site, which may differ from the UCLA Library policy.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Radios, Compact Disc Players, and Games
Radios and other electronic devices without earphones or loud enough to disturb others are prohibited.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Skateboards, Roller or Inline Skates, and Bicycles
Skateboarding, roller or inline skating, and bicycling are prohibited within the building. Bicycles must be parked in designated outside areas.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Smoking
In accordance with university regulations, library facilities are non-smoking environments. Smoking is also prohibited at the entrances to library buildings.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Soliciting and Posting
Display of posters and distribution of literature are prohibited except in designated areas or with the permission of the head of the relevant library or department. Soliciting, peddling, vending, or advertising are prohibited in or around library facilities.
UCLA Policy | CA Policy

Sanctions
Violation of university policies or campus regulations may subject a person to legal penalties; if the person is a UCLA student, faculty member, or staff member, he or she may also be subject to university discipline (UCLA Regulations on Activities, Registered Organizations and Use of Properties).
UCLA Policy

Questions regarding these rules can be directed to Library Administration (310.825.XXXX).

http://lis12a.library.ucla.edu/about/6115.cfm

[pnwmom]

335. Isn't that curious? Nothing about ID's, is there. Thanks, Raging.

Now I'm raging, too.

[Xithras]

362. Look...

I've never been in Powell, but I've been in Young. The hours and access restrictions are posted right on the fricking door.

[pnwmom]

334. But don't you think that a "random check" that just happens

to involve repeatedly tasering a Muslim American student ought to be investigated? Both for the appropriateness of the tasering and to answer the question of whether it really was a random check?

[pnwmom]

332. The article in the Bruin said it was a "random check."

That usually doesn't mean everyone, does it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. Fuck the CSOs.

They're a bunch of thugs. Obviously.

They're the criminals.

[Xithras]

97. Real mature.

The guys with the stun guns weren't CSO's, they were campus police. CSO's typically don't carry any type of weaponry (except maybe pepper spray for self-defense).

If you refuse to act in accordance with school safety policies, it is perfectly legitimate for them to ask you to leave. If you refuse to vacate a campus building when asked you, you are inviting arrest. In my book, there's nothing wrong with that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. Well then fuck the campus police.

"If you refuse to act in accordance with school safety policies"

Tell it to the thugs that did this.

[pnwmom]

337. No one's complaining about the arrest. It's the torture that

people are objecting to, the police brutality.

No one here knows for sure what happened in the minutes before the video. But what we all know is that the police repeatedly tased a non-violent, limp and/or prone, hand-cuffed subject, who did nothing more violent than yell at them.

I don't know about the student, but the police who did this deserve to be thrown into jail.

[pnwmom]

145. The issue isn't whether he was an innocent party.

The issue is that our public employees were improperly using a device on him that is ONLY meant to immobilize violent offenders. After one tase, he was cringing on the floor. Then, when he was effectively immobilized, and even hand-cuffed, they demanded that he stand up! Or else be further immobilized!

The taser is used on violent offenders because it effectively locks up their muscles and keeps them from moving. There is NO EXCUSE for using it because a person "won't" move. That is nothing but torture.

His offense is miniscule compared to what the police did to him, in our name.

[pnwmom]

328. Non-innocent parties have the same civil rights that you have.

It is completely irrelevant whether he was innocent or not, or whether he deserved to be arrested or not.

Because all of us are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Remember? That little thing called a Constitution?

This student wasn't combative. He was yelling. Period. Then he went limp. At no time in the video were the police or anyone else in danger. As a non-violent, hand-cuffed subject, he had a RIGHT not to be tortured by the police -- regardless of whether or not he initially did something to justify his arrest.

[Xithras]

363. I never disagreed with that.

Show me where, in any of my posts, that even HINTED that he deserved to be tasered. Anywhere. Now count the number of times that I have clearly stated that the officers went TOO FAR, and that the use of the taser was improper.

[pnwmom]

379. You said that he created "and fueled" the situation.

To me, that sounded as if you were condoning more than just his initial arrest. What did he do to fuel the situation? Shout? Go limp? Writhe on the ground?

[nini]

63. well said

.

[Quantess]

70. I agree with you.

Although I'm sure it makes me look heartless, I agree with every word of your very reasonable post.

[pnwmom]

380. What the heck is reasonable about shocking someone

and immobilizing their muscles -- and then immediately demanding that the victim use those muscles to stand up?

[MountainLaurel]

77. Thanks Xithras

As a librarian who's seen colleagues physically threatened by our users, I'm real interested in what transpired before this event.

[Xithras]

80. I want to see the OTHER video of this event.

If you look carefully above the door between the 2 and the 3 minute marks, you'll notice that there's what looks to be a security camera in a housing there. It probably had a better view of the events (in this video, you can't really see what the officers or the suspect are doing, you just have to infer it from the audio).

I'm a college professor, and I too have been threatened on campus before. I take an extremely dim view of those who get verbally or physically abusive against campus staff or faculty, when we are simply trying to maintain a safe and educational environment for ALL of our students. I have no problem with the fact that I've had several people arrested, and one expelled, for behaving aggressively on campus toward myself or other students. If you can't behave like a sane, reasonable adult, you have no place on a campus of higher learning.

[Quantess]

82. If you can't behave like a sane, reasonable adult, you have no place on a campus of higher learning.

:applause:

[tblue37]

100. The video also shows someone else using a cell phone,

perhaps to videotape the incident as well.

[pnwmom]

152. It isn't sane or reasonable to immobilize someone with a taser and

then demand that the person stand up or be shocked again. The taser works by locking up the muscles of the area of the body that is targeted -- often the lower extremities. The effects of a 3 - 5 second shock can immobilize for up to 15 minutes; it is meant to subdue violent offenders.

This guy wasn't being violent -- he was cringing on the floor. Whatever the excuse was for the first tase, there can be no excuse for repeatedly tasing an immobilized victim because he "won't" stand up.

A sane, reasonable police officer wouldn't have used a taser in this situation. And any sane, reasonable, adult University employee in the area should have been trying to intervene.

[madmusic]

244. Heil Zero tolerance!

You call vocal protest "combative"?

It is easy to imagine what your classes must be like...

"Yes, Ms Xitras."

"What ever you say, Ms. Xitras."

"Tell me what to say, Ms. Xitras, and I'll say it."

"Will you poke me with the cattle prod, Ms. Xithras. It feels so good!"

It's enough to wonder what "behaving aggressively" means?

[sniffa]

351. *snort*

:applause:

[pnwmom]

381. Very little, according to numerous eye witnesses.

The student was sitting at a computer when he was asked to produce ID. He couldn't, but he remained at the computer. He had put on his backpack and was on his way out when the campus cop came back with reinforcements. When he loudly objected to their grabbing his arm, they tased him.

What Xithras fails to mention is that at the most one tasing MIGHT have been justified. Once the victim was handcuffed and lying on the floor, there was no excuse for repeated tasings -- no matter what happened before the video camera went on. We're all still innocent until proven guilty, and police are not supposed to be engaged in punishing suspects.

As it was, they continued to tase him while simultaneously demanding that he stand up. This was either incredibly ignorant or sadistic, take your pick, since the tasing itself -- delivered to the lower extremities and to the buttocks -- would lock up the victim's muscles and prevent him from carrying out their demands .

[RagingInMiami]

130. So if this guy was a rapist or violent criminal, would it say that on his driver license?

[Xithras]

198. They didn't ask for his license.

They asked for his Bruincard. They simply wanted to establish his identity as a student. The facility is restricted to students & staff after 11pm, and they were simply trying to ensure that everyone in the building was a tuition paying student. As I said in my other post to you, these facilities are clearly marked as only being available to students with identification after 11PM.

[pnwmom]

392. It was supposedly a "random check." How would a student

appearing Middle Eastern know that he wasn't being picked on for this so-called "random check"?

[pnwmom]

140. The repeated tasers are INEXCUSABLE. He was NOT refusing,

he was IMMOBILIZED by the tasing. A single tasering of 3-5 seconds can immobilize the victim for up to 15 minutes. It is meant to subdue a violent offender. It could PREVENT a victim from standing up, and yet that is what the police were demanding that he do -- or else be tased again.

By the way, eyewitnesses also say that he was tased even while handcuffed, and that he was leaving the library when the police confronted him.

[MadHound]

40. And here's that classic line

"UCLA Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams said in a statement that university police are investigating the incident and the officers' actions."

Lovely, another self-investigation that will lead to a slap on the wrist for this officer, at worst.

[shance]

108. No, I don't think this fire can be put out too easily. HUGE CIVIL LIBERTIES violation.

I don't think its any coincidence this poor boy also just "happened" to be Muslim.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. K&R

[warrens]

53. Look, he was probably reading or up to some other Unamerican bidness

What were they supposed to do, just let him go on READING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM? Next thing you know, you have an educated voter and the Republicans lose every election for the next 30 years. What are you, in favor of a ONE PARTY STATE?

[dogday]

56. Thank you Homeland Security for the State Police nt

[sniffa]

57. fucking pigs. they deserve to be fried Like bacon

:mad: :mad:

i wish the kids bumrushed their asses.

[Bonobo]

68. THERE! THAT'S 5! LET'S TALK!

For all the apologists, I have one simple question: Is this the sort of culture you really, really want to encourage?

Muster all the excuses you want about how this kid would be hurt more by a baton or how he was foolish for not complying, but can you really tell me that this was right? Are you that far gone?

This was a human being screamed as he was repeatedly tortured. Yes, tortured.He offered no threat other than to make the lazy police officers have to work a little harder. And so they tortured him to get his compliance. That's what I saw and that's what was happening.

For those of you who said it should be "reviewed", just who do you think is going to be doing the "reviewing"!? The police and other interested parties who want to keep a wrap on this. In the end, nothing will change vis a vis the UCLAPD's tactics and the next time this happens somewhere, it will be incrementally easier to forgive because of this.

I ask again, is this the culture you really want to promote?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

79. No apology

An apology would be appropriate if the police did something wrong. From the video, one can't tell if they did or not.

The student would have been hurt more by beating: that is a fact, not an excuse. From the video, one can't tell what was justified, however.

If the police chose taser for enjoyment or for an illegal purpose or because of laziness, then they were wrong. On the other hand, if they used the taser to avoid having to beat the person, then they were right. One can't tell from the video. Your use of the term "torture" is pure hyperbole.

Of course it should be reviewed! How could it not be? But that shouldn't be a problem. There were dozens of witnesses, police and civilian. There were many video phones at work. There should be a ton of evidence despite the lack of it in this video.

Culture: I would prefer a culture of general civility and respect toward the police, and correct action by the police. One incident doesn't make or even represent a connection that broad, however, so "you can't tell that from the video."

[Bonobo]

83. I just don't get it. What would you need to see to further demonstrate

that they were wrong?

Is a taser a device for self-defense or is it a compliance device?

1. After they zapped him the first time, he was on the ground and refused to get up, right? We all saw that, right? So then, is it okay, in your book, at that point to taser him again because he won't (or can't?) get up?

2. When he was cuffed and unable to hurt anyone even theoretically, was it still okay to keep tasering him? What more do you need to see?

3. When he said he was willing to go and he wasn't fighting -which he continued to scream for several minutes in between taserings- should he still have been tasered?

Again, what more do you need to see? What would help YOU arrive at a proper decision as to whether or not this was appropriate?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

96. I'm sure it will come out in the inquisition

I have to apologize for writing this without the right background. The version of the video I saw didn't have the sound:
Now that I've heard the version with sound, I have changed some of my opinion.
(end of edit)


IMHO, taser is more for controlling a situation than self-defense per se. I don't mind calling that a "compliance device." I do agree that it was used for compliance in this case.

1. We saw some stuff but heard nothing. We don't know if he was lucid between shocks or not. If he was not lucid, it wouldn't make sense to continue to shock him; if he was lucid he still had a choice.

2. That's from the text, right? I couldn't see that in the video. Regardless, I don't think being handcuffed equates to helplessness. There are still kicking, biting and spitting to deal with. It just depends.

3. That's not what I read and it doesn't make sense. Why would he scream for minutes between shocks? Maybe he wanted to get shocked again, who knows?

I'd like to see what actually happened! The video doesn't show enough, especially the apparently lengthy series of events that lead to the arrest. The description is clearly that of an opinionated witness so I'd rather hear from several witnesses before I decide.

BTW, not all taser shocks are equal. They aren't very accurate (in terms of aim) in the first place, and the failure of one or both barbs to stick is common. When only one barb contacts, the effectiveness of the shock is greatly diminished. I read this in the paper; please don't ask for a citation. It so happens that Taser International is a local company and we get a blurb from time to time.

[pnwmom]

342. How could you tell me he wasn't saying the right words

if you couldn't even hear what he was saying? If you didn't even know he was screaming out that he wasn't fighting? That he was willing to leave? That he was saying "no, please!"

So what changed in your opinion after you finally listened to the thing? Are you just that much more adament that this was his fault?

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

389. Some things changed

This was fairly early in the discussion. I don't think I let anything linger that was based on the wrong video.

The change in my opinion was that most of what the cops did was wrong or wrong-headed, where before I thought they could have been acting correctly.
My opinion of Mr. Tabatabainejad did harden somewhat.

I expect to change my opinion in the future as more information comes in, and I admit that it was sloppy of me to opine on the basis of the wrong video. For that, I apologize again.

[readmoreoften]

213. Fascinating, you want a culture that is more civil to the police. And I want a culture

where the police don't use electric shock torture against students who forget their ID cards. I guess it's all what you value.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

222. and

In the same sentence, I said that I want the police to act correctly. I have not said, in any of my many posts in this thread, that the police are without fault. If I said anything that implies that I endorse police torture, that was a typo; I don't.

[madmusic]

254. Do you own stock in a Taser company or something?

We want an investigation, you want one. What's the debate about?

[pnwmom]

343. You have to wonder. The poster lives in the same

town as the Taser co.

Maybe he works there.

[Crim_n al]

372. Good catch. ;-) n/t

[pnwmom]

320. You can tell all you need to know from that video.

Whatever happened before the video, you can clearly see that the police in the video repeatedly tasered a hand-cuffed, limp and/or prone suspect who was no threat to anyone in the vicinity.

A taser is only supposed to be used to prevent greater force -- eg., a gun. No great force was ever needed. All the police EVER had to do, at least during the part of the incident on the video, was carry him out.

It doesn't matter what the student did before the first tase. Once they had tased him and he was prone, they had no excuse to tase him again. By the way, an article in the Bruin said that the police used the setting called: "Drive stun." This wasn't some little "sting," as you put it.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansDem]

74. *ZAP* Now stand up! *ZAP* Now stand up! *ZAP* Now stand up!

I've never been Tasered but I wonder about the wisdom of commanding someone to stand up after you've zapped him. I would imagine I'd be in the fetal position, writhing with pain, and the last thing I'd want to do is "stand up."

Reminds me of a "police dog bites suspect" video I saw a couple of years ago: The video showed a police officer with dog chasing a suspect. They corner him in a back alley and the dog goes after the suspect, biting him repeatedly. The suspect is on the ground trying to defend himself when the police officer yells out to him, "Stop resisting! Stop resisting!" I thought, "What a stupid request!" Stop doing what comes biologically: defending yourself against a dog attack. I mean, how far back in evolution did we develop the instinct to defend ourselves against attacks from other mammals? And this cop wants us to lay still while a snarling, growling dog bites at us?

[Kerrytravelers]

78. That is why I'm questioning the multiple tasering.

I question one taser, but I'm open to changing my mind as the facts present themselves. However, multiple tasering doesn't sit well with me.

And if I had a kid at UCLA, I'd be a bit concerned. Arrest my kid if warranted, fine. But tasering? I just don't feel comfortable with multiple tasering from what I can understand of the situation at this point.

[pnwmom]

338. And did you see what they did when he finally began to rise?

They shocked him again -- kicking his legs right out from under him. The bastards.

[AX10]

387. "PIGS"!

[KansDem]

393. No, I didn't see that...but it doesn't surprise me...

:(

[majorjohn]

86. What a Shameful Act!!!

Abuse of Power Indeed! The kid was clearly yelling out "I said I will leave!". He was resisting because they were forcefully trying to get him out - which by the way was very unnecessary - and they might have been pushing him or something which really upset the kid because he kept saying "Don't touch me!" not to mention the fact that he was tased. Right after he gets tased, the officers yell out "Stand up!". As if that's even possible? The poor guy was just tased in the ass a second ago, and you think he can stand up? Even if he could stand, he said he would leave, didn't he? What's all the force for? Disgraceful act from the officers!

[malaise]

90. Creeping fascism

This madness must stop.

[readmoreoften]

215. Creeping? Crept. It's here. Obviously. /nt

[Jed Dilligan]

101. Typical

An act of machismo, sadism, racism, and control will inevitably be justified in the name of "officer safety." I resent every penny of my taxes that I have ever been forced to spend on "officer safety."

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Kerrytravelers]

103. I think officer safety is important. And tasering can be justified in certain cases.

I'm just not sure that this is an example of a justifiable case.

Ager at police in general isn't fair. Anger at these particular officers' actions is quite fair.

[Jed Dilligan]

104. Sorry, you won't budge me on this

the 1% of cops who aren't thugs don't do much to sway my opinion.

[Kerrytravelers]

111. So, only 1% of police aren't thugs?

I'm sad to be reading this on DU.


I was making no attempt to budge you, but I certainly want to voice a counter opinion. Painting all cops with such a broad brush isn't representative of all of us (I know, you were only speaking for yourself.) And, for the record, I think that what happened at UCLA is disgusting. But the action of a few do not represent the whole. I'm a teacher. The actions of some teachers who seduce (more like molest and rape) their students or attack them physically or make racist slurs doesn't mean that I am that way, approve of such behavior, or find them representative of the profession as a whole.

We have some close family friends who are police. Events like the one at UCLA make them cringe. These officers certainly are not representative of the police we know.

[Jed Dilligan]

114. Well, they are absolutely representative of the police I've known

It just depends on where you're looking from. If you ever find yourself out on the streets with nothing to your name, you might see a different side of the cops you think you know.

[Kerrytravelers]

117. Don't assume too much. All you really know about me is what I write on DU.

I have certainly had terrible experiences with the police, both as part of a protest and as someone who, as a teenager, was attacked by another student and had the cops show up on my doorstep and placed me under juvenile arrest. I was 15 and this lady cop was completely out of control. I was quite terrified.

I fully recognizing what you're saying. I live in LA, I am well aware of the problems with police brutality. I certainly am not excusing the problems and the cops who beat, attack and use excessive force. But I don't think 99% of all cops are the problem. That's basically assuming that every time I see an officer, they have an agenda and it's against me, the citizen.

Painting with a broad brush simply says "they're all bad" instead of "let's pull out the bad ones and fix up what we have left."

[Jed Dilligan]

124. Well, I disagree--I think they should all be fired,

and replaced by people with a different personality type. British cops tend to be tolerant, slow to anger, excellent people-people, not at all in-your-face. It's not a fundamental difference between our cultures but a fundamental difference in whom we hire to be police.

Even if the police are "good people" in private, the culture of policing in America makes them all act essentially the same. Those who differ don't last long on the force.

Read Steve Herbert's book on "Policing Space" and get back to me.

[Bonobo]

132. It's true, sadly. In Japan, police officers are patient and inspire a

feeling of safety. Ask them directions and they will respond politely, not give you a "hard cop stare" that really means "don't fucking bother me, I'm a cop not a girl scout!"

[AX10]

292. Interesting.

[Kerrytravelers]

146. I'm sure Steve Herbert has valid and good points.

That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm not arguing that all police are inherently good to counter the argument that 99% of cops are thugs. I simply refuse to paint everyone with a broad brush. And since firing all police simply isn't going to happen ,I prefer to recognize the good people and hope that they are able to weed out the bad. This is the case in any profession- police, teacher, lawyer, etc.

And, I think we are simply going in a circular argument at this point. I'm not budging. You aren't budging. I don't think either of us thought the the other one would. But, I think there is certainly room for all opinions to be voiced here at DU.

[Jed Dilligan]

153. I do think a "global edit" is possible

If we change our hiring practices to attract and hire peacemakers rather than authoritarians, the old-school cops will gradually die off. The problem is the transition, since the policing culture is self-perpetuating.

I understand the liberal bent is toward case-by-case approaches, but they seldom actually work to change anything. Sometimes you have to break eggs to make an omelette.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. If there are plenty of good cops...

why haven't they arrest these cops for assault?

[Kerrytravelers]

148. That question isn't even a valid one in that everyone- no matter who- deserve an investigation.

It is the policy to investigate events when something like this happens. It is the job of taxpayers, activists and those in leadership positions to be sure the investigation is done thoroughly. And I do hope that this young guy has a damn fine attorney that will nail these bastard's asses to the wall. While non-police officers could be arrested in a shorter period of time than officers normally do doesn't mean that it won't happen and that these officers won't have to atone for what they did.


On Edit- Now, I'm not backing out, but I do have to be at my 'm not avoiding the conversation, although I don't know what other point I could possibly at this time in the thread.

[pnwmom]

340. I'm sure this is NOT a justifiable case.

And I'm sure the woman in my area who got tasered because she was in diabetic shock (and nonresponsive) was not a justifiable case.

Unless the subject is violent, or threatens violence, it is never justified to use a weapon like a taser.

[Kerrytravelers]

374. I certainly don't condone what happened at UCLA.

Throughout this thread, I've made several posts indicating that. Just wanted to say that here for the record.

That is all.

[lovuian]

105. Mutiple tazing is the point could the suspect

be able to do what was ordered Stand up after repeated tazing
thats a medical question
i suspect that all the muscles were shocked and could not respond to the tazing


Its pretty obvious the mutiple tazing didn't accomplish the job and he had to be carried out.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

109. here's a companion piece to compliment your work...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2735418

[madmusic]

259. Lost. Are you saying this is not a real issue?

Just askin'.

[StraightDope]

112. All I have to say is...

Some of you disgust me.

Those of you who would defend the actions of the police who repeatedly tazed a HANDCUFFED kid for not leaving a library quickly enough.

Those of you who say things like, "At least he didn't get beat with a baton!"

Those of you who think that somehow this kid "deserved it" or "got what was coming to him".

I don't care if this gets me banned, it needs to be said. Now I know how certain people can support torture, because I've seen it right here, first-hand.

Now I know how the idiots on the right can defend waterboarding. They truly believe that "might makes right", and that torturing someone in order to get their compliance is just A-OK.


:puke:

[Der Blaue Engel]

160. I'll second your disgust

WTF is wrong with some of you???

[TroubleMan]

168. Agree 100%

nt.

[readmoreoften]

371. I agree. I've seriously never been more disturbed here.

There are things that people believe here that I find to be ignorant, biased, or counterproductive and yet somehow we can be a part of a "big tent." But if you watch a video of a student being subdued by electric shock for not being able to produce a library card and you think that it's a good idea, then there is more than even a profound political difference between us. You are a threat to my freedom.

[RagingInMiami]

113. I can't believe some people on this thread are justifying the cops' behavior

I don't care how bad things have gotten in this country during the last six years, but this is still not Nazi Germany.

What did the student do to prompt this? Refuse to provide an ID? And for that he gets handcuffed and tasered?

You gotta be fucking kidding me. Not only does this student have a hell of a lawsuit on his hands, these cops deserve to be jailed - especially considering that they tasered him after he was already handcuffed.

The fact is, he was not fighting them. If he was resisting them, he was doing it passively. Just like Ghandi taught.

After all, doesn't the fact that police are doing routine sweeps through the library of a PUBLIC STATE UNIVERSITY and asking everybody for their ID seem unconstitutional?

The truth is, we don't even have to provide ID when we vote.

So why should people who are minding their own business in a library of a PUBLIC STATE UNIVERSITY be forced to provide an ID?

Especially considering that this guy was not doing anything that would be deemed suspicious before the pigs approached him. He was a 23-year-old man with a backback. Doesn't that fit the profile of a student?

I think it's obvious that this guy was trying to prove a point, especially considering he yelled out "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your fucking abuse of power."

And sure it would have been easier to simply provide an ID, but then how different is that from the people who say they don't mind the government spying on them because "I don't have anything to hide"?

So I think we owe this guy one for taking one for them and showing the world the realities of the Patriot Act.

[majorjohn]

120. Thank God someone used their Camera Phone

If it wasn't for this video footage, I don't think many people would have taken the matter seriouslly.

[Beam Me Up]

138. It's about time people started taking this shit seriously.

It is serious and anyone on this board who doesn't get it should wake the hell up.

[majorjohn]

157. i agree n/t

[RagingInMiami]

137. People need to read this

UCLA Libary User Rights and Responsibilities

UCLA is a public institution, which means its Library facilities and collections are accessible to residents of the state of California as well as people from across the country and around the world. However, the Library's primary mission is to support the instructional, reference, research, and administrative needs of the university's students, faculty, and staff; these users have first priority to use library facilities, resources, and services. Persons not affiliated with the university such as guests, visitors, and members of the general public may enter library facilities to use collections and services; any other use of the facilities by non-affiliated users is not permitted and may be considered trespassing.

The UCLA Library has adopted the following regulations to protect the rights of both users and staff; to create an appropriate academic atmosphere; and to provide a safe, comfortable, and convenient environment. All library users are expected to contribute to an atmosphere that is conducive to study and to respect the rights and needs of others. In addition, all individuals on university property are required to abide by both university policies and campus regulations (UCLA Regulations on Activities, Registered Organizations, and Use of Properties) and UC policies applying to campus activities, organizations, and students.

The Library will refuse access to its facilities, resources, or services to anyone who disrupts the use of the facilities by others or is disrespectful to other library users or employees. People who are unwilling to abide by these regulations will be asked to leave, and those refusing to do so will be subject to removal by security personnel and may not be allowed further access to the libraries.


http://lis12a.library.ucla.edu/about/6115.cfm

I have not seen anything that indicates that before this student was asked for his ID, which I believe is unconstitutional in a public university, that he was disrupting "the use of the facilities by others or is disrespectful to other library users or employees."

If anybody was doing that, it was the goddamn pigs.

[slaveplanet]

158. Ucla security

is playing fast and loose with the rules to make sure no homeless can seek refuge. It won't be long before a shock collar is required for non student entry.

[readmoreoften]

217. Great, so the police had no legal precedent for removing this student accept their own protocol. /nt

[midnight]

139. So the police seem to have behaved out of loss of control of

their own egos, and not for the safety at all. If this guy was in handcuffs why did they taser him? Good lord but the weapons seem to be in the hand of some criminal thugs.

[bklyncowgirl]

155. As a librarian I've occaisionally fantasized about doing the same thing.q

Acually a cattle prod would be more appropriate.

Seriously, I have had to call the cops on people who've refused to leave. This seems a bit extreme, however.

[RagingInMiami]

159. Speaking of librarians and fantasies

Do you wear glasses and pin your hair up, only to take off your glasses and let down your hair when you get off work?

[bklyncowgirl]

163. Nope, sorry, you gotta get yourself another fantasy librarian.

I used to have long hair which I generally wore in a braid or ponytail on duty and off. I should wear glasses but I refuse to put them on for anything but driving. I also usually wear pants to work, listen to rock music and am pretty loud--I've had patrons shushing me.

I like to think of myself as the un-librarian librarian.

[madmusic]

262. LOL, why is that fantasy so common, I wonder. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

162. According to the article. the student was tased "multiple times"--WTF?

"It was beyond grotesque," said UCLA graduate David Remesnitsky of Los Angeles, who witnessed the incident. "By the end they took him over the stairs, lifted him up and Tasered him on his rear end. It seemed like it was inappropriately placed. The Tasering was so unnecessary and they just kept doing it."

Campus police confirmed that Tabatabainejad was stunned "multiple" times.

[Gwerlain]

167. Now, I'm not a fan of hysterical posts about tasers, but...

this is not proper procedure. And furthermore, it's assault. I'd like to see those officers charged. I'd think there'd be more than enough witnesses given the sizes of the crowds. It looks like several people filmed it and posted.

The issue, as another poster noted, is not tasers themselves. It is misuse, or abuse, of them. This incident was abuse; however, bear carefully in mind that six trained professionals are required to restrain a maximally out-of-control person. We are large, powerful animals, capable of inflicting serious injury on, or even killing, another person with no weapons but those provided by our bodies. Officers and suspects BOTH are at serious risk of permanently debilitating injury when a violent individual must be subdued or apprehended, and this is a very high risk; the risk of permanent debilitating injury because of a taser is far less and tasering is therefore preferable to physical coercion. That is not, of course, to say that any particular incident in which an officer uses ANY means of coercion is justified, or not justified; that is dependent upon the circumstances. Accurate judgment of those circumstances is a necessary job skill for police officers, and it is my belief that the lack of such judgment should be sufficient grounds for discharge and permanent disqualification from service in this particular job; and I believe that such faulty judgment was present in this particular case.

There is also an argument from the opposite perspective. First, if an officer gives you a reasonable order, IOW one that does not cause you to risk life or injury (except, of course, in order to aid you in escaping worse), or unreasonable probability of property damage without proper justification (for example, an automobile might be commandeered by an officer in order to transport someone who is injured when no other transportation is available), you must follow it. To fail to do so is a crime (a misdemeanor) in almost all places, and is seriously unwise everywhere. Second, none of the videos I saw showed what led up to the start of the shouting. I'll point out that the description in the written accounts is quite clear on the fact that the individual was asked to show ID or vacate multiple times, by unarmed people who did not make threats. This is not unreasonable behavior on their part, and it IS unreasonable on his. If I had the responsibility they had, I would have done the same as they did: summon the authorities. And given that this individual had behaved unreasonably at first, what is the likelihood that he would continue to do so? IMHO, high. Finally, to what extent was the individual's response to being tased enhanced, either to some extent deliberately as a performance for watching potential witnesses, or inadvertently as a result of an emotional state that led him to be unreasonable in the first place? We cannot know, and (if there is any decency left in this country, this last being his private business) we never will. That he was upset long before he was ever asked to leave is unquestionable, and that EVERYONE who cannot provide ID showing they have an authorized purpose in that building at that time EVERY NIGHT is also unquestionable.

However, once this individual had been subdued, IMHO, the behavior of the officers became unreasonable. They were no longer acting in accordance with the requirements of their situation; the moment I heard one of them order an individual who had just been tased to get up, a frown creased my forehead; it was WRONG, from there on. I sensed aggression on their part, and an attitude of hostility, rather than a "defend with as little harm as possible" attitude appropriate to people whose job is essentially defense of the persons, property, and rights of the authorized campus users. And it is this part of the incident that I find disturbing.

Once again, let me be clear: ANY kind of coercion is bad. If it is used, it must be justified. And once it has been used, extreme care must be taken not to become aggressive and unreasonable; people (and officers are people, too) get charged up on adrenaline, and they need to keep careful watch on their reactions. Those who cannot should not be permitted to be, or to remain, police officers.

[LoZoccolo]

194. wrong reply, self-delete n/t

[pnwmom]

345. Thank you Gwerlain, for such a thoughtful post.

My only quibble is that I read that the student was subjected to a "random check," so that everyone without ID was not necessarily asked to leave. Just one kid with a Middle Eastern appearance.

Maybe it was a truly random check. Maybe not. But if he thought he was being profiled, all the more reason for him to be upset. It must be very hard for young Muslim men in this country since 9/11.

[majorjohn]

173. Another problem

It appears at the end of video, when some of the students asked the cops for their badge numbers, one of the cops was clearly turning them away and threatening them that if they don't, they will be tased too. Anyone else see a problem with that?

[Gwerlain]

179. Yep.

Part and parcel with the misbehavior after they tased the guy.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

182. Mixed feelings on that part

I saw that, too. I believe observers are entitled to do that, but not in such a way as to interfere with the business at hand. Getting the badges could have waited a minute or two. Depending on how the cops handled it after the end of the video, it could be OK.

[majorjohn]

188. somehow..

it didn't seem as if the students were interfering to an extent that the cops would lose control over the situation, and it seemed like they were really concerned with the way cops were behaving that they couldn't tolerate the tasering anymore. Yet still, my main concern was that the cop decided to threaten them away instead of gently asking them to leave.

[RagingInMiami]

191. When the "business at hand" involves excessive abuse on a citizen

Then people have every right to interfere. Man, I wish I had been there.

[StrictlyRockers]

195. This is what happens in a society which advocates torture.

This is completely UNACCEPTABLE!

SR

[LoZoccolo]

196. They are very lucky the students didn't rush them. n/t

[Jcrowley]

203. Very disturbing

How far did the cops need to go before the students physically intervened? Yes it would've gotten ugly but jeezuz that was beyond the pale.

So who's gonna police the police in the police state? The people must, noone else can.

Video here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5800064335645555787&q=UCLA+police&hl=en

[readmoreoften]

206. Frankly, I'm more disturbed by some of the people on this thread than the cops in question

There will always be people in power who abuse their authority but the quality of a culture depends upon the ability of common people to be able to recognize abuse of power when it happens. If members of the Democratic party, the so-called party of the "little guy", can't even recognize abuse of power when they see it, then we really have jumped the shark as a nation.

Or maybe this board is just full of trolls. One can hope.

[majorjohn]

210. Agree with you 100% ! n/t

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madmusic]

265. There are those who are paid, remember,

To keep a smiley face on some products.

[Kerrytravelers]

375. I certainly have some suspicions.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

211. First of all, what bothers me is the fact he was being asked to leave.

Why was he being asked to leave since he didn't have his ID? Last time I checked UCLA is a state school, and at least here in Oklahoma, state run school libraries are open to the public. They can even receive a library card to check out books. It is illegal to keep people out of a building that they pay to operate. Secondly, it appears the guy was singled out because he looked middle eastern, at least that's my impression of the situation. When the police were called on their behavior by the other students, they threatened them.
Why did they ask the kid for this ID in the first place? I used to work in a university library and we never asked anyone for their ID. Even if it had been for students only, we never would have. there is so much WRONG here...
Duckie

[readmoreoften]

218. I know. What if he lost his ID within the library? /nt

[BlooInBloo]

220. Well - they just took the lead in the taze-the-darkie contest....

Sigh. I wish more white folks would get wrongly tazed. That's the only way America will care, and stop reflexively defending the cops.

Same with the death penalty.

[majorjohn]

221. Scary part is..

this happened right in public, infront of many other students, what if that poor kid was taken to an interrogation room (maybe this is over-exaggerating, but get my point?)

[pnwmom]

233. majorjohn, that's what I've been wondering.

What do you want to bet that tasers aren't routinely used on terrorism suspects? As part of the non-lethal torture that we now condone?

Welcome to DU!

[pnwmom]

232. Did you hear the police threatening the other students?

Toward the end of the video, after the victim had been carried away, another student in a white shirt was trying to talk to an officer. I couldn't hear what he was saying, but the officer told him to get out "or you'll get tased, too."

[meisje]

236. Dickhead student meets asshole cops

The idiot should have showed his I.D. in the first place. The student will file a lawsuit and will ruin the lives of the police officers, serves them right.

The moral of this story is... never become involved in a confrontation with the police. Eighty percent of them are complete ego driven assholes and cannot be trusted. If he wanted to protest the patriot act, there are better ways than clashing with the campus keystone kops.

[Cleita]

255. "campus keystone kops". LOL That's what I always thought of

them as.

[AX10]

257. I agree with this part!

"never become involved in a confrontation with the police, Eighty percent of them are complete ego driven assholes and cannot be trusted."

Bust their unions!

[BreweryYardRat]

339. I'd say it's more like 50% of cops who abuse power.

Maybe 60% in some areas, as seen here.

[Cleita]

248. Hmmm. I used to work at UCLA in the post office, which was

across the road from the police station. Back then the campus cops were only allowed batons and hand cuffs. They could arrest, which amounted to a citizens arrest, and then they had to call the real city cops, the ones with guns, to take the wrong doers to jail. When did they let them have tasers?

They came and arrested one of my office mates for being in possession of drugs. They put her in handcuffs until the regular LA cops arrived. Since the population of UCLA is larger than many small cities, they are sort of problem solvers before the regular cops arrive. They never had much power except as negotiators. Who gave them tasers?

[EFerrari]

347. At Berkeley, we avoided the campus cops like the plague because

they were thugs. The Berkeley PD were skilled negotiators and generally well liked in the community. In retro and after all the police I've worked with over the years via mental health and homelessness issues, that was the most professional bunch of cops I've ever dealt with.

In contrast, the cop culture in Southern California is very different. Authoritarians out of control, corruption everywhere and the most vulnerable citizens always suffer them more.

[AX10]

386. I have to agree that southern California is screwed up.

[Oilwellian]

288. How many taser incidents can you count in the video?

I think when the video began, the kid had already been tasered. The police were asking him to get up and he didn't because he COULDN'T. Count the number of times you hear the kid writhing in pain. I counted 9 total if you include the first one we didn't see. It's a wonder this kid didn't go into cardiac arrest after being tasered 9 fucking times for no goddamned reason.

From what I've gathered, it appears the kid was on a computer in the library and didn't have his Bruin card. The police asked him to leave and apparently he did't sign off of the computer fast enough. The police came back, the student was on his way out and they stopped him. It sounds to me like the kid was complying with their request, so why did they stop him?

I don't think I've seen a more horrifying example of police brutality. If the police involved don't go to prison for assaulting this kid, something is very wrong with our judicial system.

[AX10]

290. Police or State Agents do not go to jail.

They are the powers that be. They can be little dictators and do as they wish.

Bust police unions!

[pnwmom]

300. I agree, George.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

306. Enough, I'm outnumbered.

I can't take it anymore, I'm used up. Pooped.
To those who disagree with my position, it's likely we'll agree on something tomorrow.
To those who called me names, bite me. This isn't the easiest place to be in the minority.

Cheers, cya.

[RagingInMiami]

321. "This isn't the easiest place to be in the minority."

And neither is the UCLA library

[justjones]

356. Nor the entire UCLA campus.....

There are virtually no minorities on campus, especially brown people after the passage of Prop 209.

And a few posters asked why the students just sat there...because they've probably never witnessed blatant police brutality and were in shock. I wonder what the reaction of the crowd would have been if more students of color were there.

[Kerrytravelers]

377. If the crowd contained more people of color, I doubt the campus security

would have tasered this kid. They figured the white kids wouldn't have cared.

Ooops.

[Crim_n al]

373. If one is "pooped", does that mean one is no longer full of shit?

:evilgrin:

[BlueStorm]

307. Is it any coincidence that this man was a Mid Eastern?

I don't think so.

Anyways, it wasn't called for and yes the police were using unnecessary and excessive force. Like many on here and have said they could have carried him out, but no, they had to keep tazing and ordering him to stand up.



A book that I am reading by Uncle Abdul called "Juice, Electricity for Pain and Pleasure." has an excerpt on tasers. Here's what he wrote:

Tasers and other names from different manufacturers.

Operating Principle: A personal at a distance defense device like a tensor that also generates a high voltage to the electrodes by an electronic generator. The device is self contained and includes a set of electrodes that are fired into the attacker by a spring loaded gun on the main body of the weapon. Metal wires connect the sharp pin electrodes to the main body of the unit. It is intended to disable an attacker by shooting the electrodes into the attacker's body an shocking them. A five second shock with the device will generally disable an attacker from 5 to 15 minutes. There is no control over the voltage. The unit will deliver a shock as long as the trigger is held down.

Voltage(s) Output voltage across the electrodes is anywhere from 25,000 to 125,000 volts depending on the size of the units. The units are generally powered by 9 volt batteries.

Current(s) Out put currents aare about 30ma

Frequency(ies) The frequencies of the delivered shock depends on the circuit used in the electronics of the unit.

Body Effect(s) Intense sensation and general muscular weakness. Once shocked a bottom will be unable to move for 5 to 15 minutes. There will be soreness around the point of contact. Muscular contractions may be strong enough to crack bones.

Intensity Severe and intense.

Psychological Aspects There are no audible cues, but the sight of the weapon will be enough to cause fear. Tops using tasers will often only use them to threaten rather than to actually shock.

Caution(s) Extremely high voltages are involved here with potentionally intense body damage. Avoid using on the chest due to the potential of cracked or broken ribs. If used for shocking during extremelly intense play scenes, the top should be prepared to render assistance to the bottom as necessary. Be especially careful where you point the unit if you don't intend to shock someone. Some jurisdictions allow tasers only in the hands of law enforcement agencies. You need to check your local laws before getting one.

Now mind you this a safety primer on erotic electrical play, however this author is an electrical engineer and is very adamant about the safety aspects. He understands the physics behind electricity and the physiological effects it has on the human body so I take this shit very seriously. There are many people who have died from it obviously and I think that police officers who use tasers should take an elementary physiological/physics course on electricity so that they know what they are doing and what is going on when they apply this weapon to offenders.

He also states in his book that electrical currents can be so much that it will cause "tetany" or the locking, cramping of muscles that is quite painful.

So by what I have here, this would constitute as torture and should be punished by the full extent of the law.

Mods, in no way was intending to put anything sexual in here, just information that I have that I feel is relevant to this thread and it's discussion. If you feel that this is inappropiate in anyway, you may delete it.

Blue

[pnwmom]

385. You might be interested in this other thread

about the possibility of racial profiling in this case.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2739818

[BreweryYardRat]

333. Now I'm mad.

The student might have acted dickish when initially asked to leave, but that's no reason to taser him. Those fuckers were blatantly abusing their authority.

What really pisses me off is when they're yelling at him to stand up. HE CAN'T FUCKING STAND UP, YOU IDIOTS!!! YOU JUST HIT HIM WITH 50,000 VOLTS!!! FUCK!!!

These "cops" need to be sacked, sued, and (ideally) kneecapped.

[Hippo_Tron]

336. I was reading what they have to say about it on FreeRepublic

And no surprise, they think they were right to taze the kid because he was making a scene and because people that look like him blow up buildings.

That being said, there was one comment over there that did make sense. Whether it's a bank robber or a cop, if he has a loaded gun you do whatever he says.

If the cops are doing something wrong, it's probably best to fight them in court and not at the scene.

[StraightDope]

352. "...if he has a loaded gun you do whatever he says."

Yeah, if you're a goddamn coward you do. If this kid had complied with their unreasonable demands, none of us would ever have known about the harrassment of brown people at the UCLA library. Now we, and the rest of the world, does, and I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that this shit won't happen ever again. Not to mention that these torturous pigs will never get the chance to do the same to another innocent student.

Acquiescence is for the weak.

[RagingInMiami]

355. Yep

[Hippo_Tron]

358. Good point, sir

My only fear is that nothing will come of this and that it will continue to happen, thus his actions will have been pointless. Also being a college student I can't even fathom the campus police even needing to carry around tasers to use on students. We're asked to present ID to get into certain buildings but there's no problem of profiling African Americans or people of Indian or Middle Eastern descent. That said my school is a lot smaller than UCLA but I haven't observed such problems on other large campuses.

[athena]

359. He's hired a high-profile civil-rights lawyer

who plans to filee a federal civil-rights lawsuit. I've posted it in LBN. This incident was so egregiously unfair that perhaps it will not be forgotten quickly. Not only will the Middle-Eastern American communities be speaking out, but parents of university students everywhere will worry that their child may get tasered for forgetting an ID or simply having a bad day.

[Kerrytravelers]

378. Wonderful. I will keep an eye on my local news to follow the story.

I hope he nails those cops' asses to the wall for this.

[StraightDope]

353. Dupe.

[stepnw1f]

384. WTF?!

Talk about going over-board!!!!

[jakefrep]

388. So whose bright idea was it to give tasers to the rent-a-cops?

The students should have ganged up and beaten the shit out of those morons. Lord knows they deserved it.

[thatsrightimirish]

390. the fact of the matter is

If the cops did not have tasers this would not have happened. And the fact that this is all over a library card is BS

[pnwmom]

391. That's certainly true. The technology drove the crime (the officer's crime).

In the old days, when the student went limp, all they would have done was grasp him under the arms and haul him out -- as they did in the end here anyway. But they had the gadgets in their hot little hands and so it was another case of (sorry, guys) boys with toys.

[myopinionNJ]

394. What's more disgusting!

What's more disgusting is the people standing around doing nothing, just watching like they are watching TV. Everyone wants to complain, and are quick to run to the media and news outlets after the fact. How can these people live with themselves? What if the kid died? People make me sick! STOP SITTING AROUND and DO SOMETHING WHILE the problem is occuring!!! Wasn't this campus security? Not even real cops?

So go ahead people, protest and make pretty little signs, but be honest with yourself. If you were there, would you have been a compasionate human being and step in and help; Or would you just be another member of the "audience" saying, "what are you doing? what are you doing?", witnessing your "shock show".

If you believe something is wrong, stand up! Do something! Your pretty little signs are worthless.

[majorjohn]

395. They tried

Some students were clearly complaining about what happened towards the end of the video, but then one cop was making them leave or they'll "get tased too". Also during the video, some students were heard asking the cops to stop shocking the kid and asked for their badge numbers. I think that was good enough on the students' side, but not good enough on the cops' side.