Define: Success In Iraq?

[Pierre.Suave]

Can you, a lot of people say we need to achieve success in Iraq, but what exactly does that mean?

What yardstick do we use to measure success? What criteria do we use to guage whether or not Success has been achieved?

These are important questions that need to be answered BEFORE we come up with a plan to exit, because without these basic questions, any further planning is pointlesss and bound to go nowhere. We have to have an idea of what we are planning for before we can plan for it.

Discuss:

[goodhue]

1. Bring Them Home Now

That's my yardstick

[longship]

2. "Out of Iraq"

The *only* definition that applies to success.

[The2ndWheel]

3. When we're able to

move jobs there.

[Pierre.Suave]

12. We have already...

there are lots of private employers doing business in Iraq.

[MGKrebs]

4. It's the wrong question I think.

We all want peace and stability there. BushCo tries to frame the question as if we differ on this, but what we actually differ on is how to get there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. The appropriate question should be...

"just how many more dead US troops do you fuckers want?"

[Pierre.Suave]

13. How we get there

is what I am asking.

[ieoeja]

27. They have peace and stability in Iran.

So all we want is peace and stability for the Iraqi people? If we can achieve that by getting the people of Iraq to rally around their hatred of say, the United States, then that is all fine and jolly?

[MGKrebs]

31. And you would say, what,

that we want peace and stability only as long as we have access to the oil and basing rights for our troops? This is probably the implication of BushCo's "victory". WE must decide what is the proper makeup of a post-chaotic Iraq.

I can't even pretend to be smart enough to know what a good path through all this is, but I believe defining that path is going to entail more than just the US "deciding" what is right. Other groups, other countries, other leaders, should be brought in to help craft a plan. The community of nations has been through similar circumstances before. There have been lessons learned.

Some have been saying since before the invasion that Iraq would end up being partitioned, and I think we are still moving closer to that step. Hell, it was almost there with the no-fly zones before we attacked. Not sure if it is good or bad, but it seems more and more likely as time passes and factions continue to build resentment.

[jobycom]

6. Who cares, let's just say "we won" and get out.

I believe we have to turn Iraq's caretaking over to an international body. The UN, for instance. And I think we have to contribute resources to that body, to correct our sins. But we need to be removed from power there.

That's my plan. Give Iraq to the UN (or whatever coalition can handle it), give the UN support and troops to use as they see fit, then get out and say "Now that we've achieved our goals in Iraq, let's fix New Orleans and FEMA and health care, before our own nation falls apart."

You are right, Bush keeps saying "we will win," but he never says what winning means. His only stated goal at first was to overthrow Hussein. He did that, but didn't leave. I'll reverse Bush's statements that the only way we can lose is to leave. The only way we can win is to get out. Until we do, our very presence there proves we have lost--otherwise, why would we still be needed there.

The only way to win is to leave.

[BOSSHOG]

7. Iraqi's choosing their own destiny

We should not have gone there in the first place, a fact conservatives conveniently forget about. Our kids should not continue to die which is only preventing Iraqis from choosing what the hell the want for their future.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. no more people who don't like us...

whooops...wrong board. ;-)

sP

[niyad]

9. there is NO "success in Iraq" there cannot be success in an endeavour

based on lies, and propoganda.

[Pierre.Suave]

14. With that attitude

nothing positive will ever happpen.

[Individualist]

17. Exactly!

[Amonester]

10. The 'publicans hidden agenda's 'success' = more-billions-for-the...

already-rich-1% defines their 'success' and they only add the 2 other words ('in' and 'Iraq') as a convenient (for them) spin. There never was, neither isn't, nor ever will be any 'success' for the ordinary citizen, worker, and taxpayer "in Iraq" but only 'losses' there.

Should be very clear to everybody who dares 'looking' at reality as it truly is.

[Pierre.Suave]

15. What about

for the Iraqis?

[Amonester]

32. Success for the Iraqis is aproximately the same as 'success' for

the Vietnamese was (and still is...), although they may have a longer period of infightings than the Vietnamese had before and after the imperialist invaders aknowledged their obvious defeats and ran away after murdering countless innocents.

[jannyk]

11. I have never had a handle on

what 'Victory' in Iraq is supposed to be. I have never heard it clearly defined and I don't believe a definition exists.

It seems to be a moving target, once it was the capture of Saddam, then free elections (they've done that twice already), then a constitution, freely elected government etc. etc..

Now it seems to hinge on a capable army and police force. However, all they seem capable of is killing each other.

So, in answer to your question, there is, at least for the US, no such thing as 'Victory' in Iraq. I believe the US 'lost' this one a long time ago. The rest of the world knows it, and to be honest, we know it too. What we are trying to do now is 'save face' but it is too late for that also. Many more are going to die before we admit the truth and humble ourselves before the world.

We appear to have 'lost' Afghanistan too, but no-one mentions that. Sort of takes the edge off that whole 'super power' shit doesn't it?

[Pierre.Suave]

16. I did not ask what Victory is

I asked what defines Success.

[happydreams]

18. Who's success?

Getting all the money out of the Treasury and into the Bush &Co.'s coffers is Bush's definition of success in conjunction with permanent occupation of Iraq and stealing of its oil.
The only part the Bushies will succeed in is the war profits.

[Pierre.Suave]

19. Well,

I certainly dont care what Bush defines as an Iraq success.

[DaveJ]

20. Disarming the enemy -- But BushCo doesn't talk about that

N/T

[magellan]

21. To me, success would mean a free and stable Iraq

But that isn't going to happen while we're involved there in any shape, form or fashion. And even if we cut all self-serving ties immediately, it's unlikely to happen any time soon thanks to what Bush** has precipitated.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Dictatorship or partition.

There's no democracy option when people want to vote each other dead.

[NNN0LHI]

23. Yes I can. Success at this point is that the Iraqis will still sell us oil when this is all over n/t

[TahitiNut]

24. Success

[TahitiNut]

25. Success

[TahitiNut]

26. Success

[happydreams]

28. Bwaaaaaa! Great Stuff TH.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. For the politicians and generals, "success" = saving face.

No matter how many murders it requires.

[TahitiNut]

30. That's because they understand the meaning of 'Teamwork'