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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:33 PM
Original message
Abandoning the South
Now that the midterm elections are over, it’s safe to assume we will be seeing threads with titles like “Should we be done with the South” with increasing frequency. You’d think people would learn. John Kerry previously claimed he didn’t need the South running up to the ’04 election. The very people who express a willingness to abandon an entire segment of the country are, quite often, the same who crow with glee over the wisdom of Howard Dean’s “50 state strategy” without realizing the irony. In the interest of full disclosure, I am a person who currently lives in the Northeast, although the majority of my life was spent in the Deep South. I’m one of those pesky Katrina survivors who have lost everything and since been diagnosed with PTSD, so that probably colors my perspective.

With that said, there are certainly reasons why it might be desirable to abandon the South. It’s an unfortunate truth that southerners on average tend to be less literate, less educated than their fellow Americans. The South is undeniably the center for blue collar labor in America; you’ll find no technological bright lights like Palo Alto or Silicon Valley or Boston south of Research Triangle Park in North Carolina. Southerners tend to vote against their own best interest, tend to have a disproportionate number of fundamentalist whack jobs, display overt bigotry, misogyny, and racial tension, and would seem to want the 10 commandments tattooed to each of our foreheads. Infant mortality is twice as high in the South, no doubt due, in part, to those Texan mothers who keep butchering their own children. Poverty is rampant everywhere, but what northern city can boast that 50% of its working age population is unemployed? Quality education for your kids or yourself in the South? That’s a hard thing to come by, and generally costs too much to be accessible to most families. Income is lower in the South, total mortality higher, health care quality lower, rate of teen death by suicide, homicide and accident are all higher. By virtually any tangible index you care to measure, the South is the idiot stepchild of the nation.

So, why not abandon the South? If the dumb bastards can’t see the light in front of their faces, why should anyone give a damn? I have two answers to that, one personal, the other less so.

On a personal note, what makes you think you haven’t already abandoned the South? It’s going on a year and a half now, go take a walk through New Orleans. Ask yourself if the nation as a whole would tolerate that kind of devastation for so long in Philadelphia, Boston, New York, Seattle, or even the Castro district in San Francisco. In any place BUT the South, that shit would be fixed. So, if you sit there gowned in the full glory of your enlightened wisdom and pc savvy, casually condemning the South for all its flaws, I wish you luck. In all likelihood, your attitude is going to turn around one day and bite you in the ass.

My other answer is less an answer and more of a solution. Provide educational grants. Lots of them. Lots and lots. Raise the minimum wage so a single mom can make a living wage and still have time for her kids. Increase funding towards Section 8 Housing. Increase funding towards HeadStart. Give your average southerner something to be invested in other than their immortal spirit. It’s that simple. Do that, and there will be no reason for bigoted questions like “should we abandon the South” to bubble up from deep within the recesses of “enlightened” minds.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. How about make our southern strategy "labor labor labor"
If we do that, and keep ALL discussions on wages, jobs and standard of living - we can win
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kerry never said that - that was another media spin that too many bloggers bought in their
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 05:38 PM by blm
hurried attempts to spread antiKerry news at the time.

And for the record - it was BILL CLINTON and his chosen heads at the DNC who allowed the party infrastructure of all the red states and swing states to collapse after the 96 election cycle.

THEY started the targeted state strategy and THEY are the ones who left Gore, the 2002 candidates, and Kerry and the 2004 candidates out on their own with NO party infrastructure strong enough in crucial states to get the votes they earned secured and counted.

Bill Clinton and James Carville are southern boys, aren't they?
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. yep, they are southern boys
Southern Conservative Boys and there is a world of
difference between a Southern Liberal and Southern
Conservative. At least they are not Southern Republican
Conservatives.

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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. "abandon the South" is not bigoted, it is practical
Have lived here all my 50+ years, and while I agree with Dean's 50 State Strategy in part, it is my absolute belief that the South will never vote like the rest of the nation. Dean can build up the state organizations as much as possible, but the Deep South will never vote Dem nationally, unless enough non-Southerners move down here to assimilate the Southerners, like is happening in VA and FL.

All my Dem friends and my Dem group agree....it is not bigoted to direct resources where they can do the most good, and that ain't in the Deep South.

You are going to find this extremely hard to believe, but Southerners, in their hearts, are still fighting the Civil War....they are bred and raised on it. They proudly consider themselves rebels in most all things....even to their own detriment. They will never vote Progressive. Period. So, even with education, it will take Assimilation. And, that takes a long time.

I take no offense at any proposed abandonment. Flame away.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Mighty big brush you are painting all of
us who live in the south with. "They will never vote progressive"???? I did, and I am part of "they", thank you very much.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They = majority.

And it seems to be true, unfortunately.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. They voted for Carter and Clinton.
It's not impossible to alter southerners' perceptions of Democrats. If we control the focus, keeping it squarely on labor issues and quality of life and ditching gun control, there's no reason we can't clean up on Southern votes. There are a lot of Dems in local offices down there, so any coordinated Democratic GOTV effort could be quite successful. Only problem is that until Dean put forth his 50-state strategy, many local Democratic offices in the redder states were underfunded. The local Dem organizations in the South could win a lot of votes if given a chance.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. So they only support other southerners?

What does that say?
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. It says...
Southerners don't vote for people who seem to look down on them with contempt and pity and who don't "waste their time" campaigning there. Treat the South like any other region of the country, and seriously campaign for votes there.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #75
88. I think there's more to it than that..

If southerners automatically assume that anyone from the North looks down on them, then that's their trip. Maybe the fact is that the south is too prejudice toward anyone from the north.

I don't want to argue anymore, I just think that things are not so simple as you would imply.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. Hell, nothing in politics is simple.
Maybe the fact is that the south is too prejudice toward anyone from the north.

This is what you implied in the previous post, and I still disagree with it. Like I said, let's give southern Democratic organizers a little more money and a presidential ticket that CAMPAIGNS in the South and see what happens. Did Mondale, Dukakis, or Kerry spend significant time campaigning in the South? If you don't campaign, you don't get the votes.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yeah, I did too......but how long do you think it would
take for a majority of Deep South Southerners to vote Progressive....not only to vote Progressive, but to THINK Progressivly (which has to come before they will vote Progressively.) Another 100 years? In the meantime, continue to try to educate them and direct some resources, but not a full-out attempt to convince them. It ain't gonna happen any time soon. Sorry about the broad brush, but it's something that I just feel and had to say it.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Get us some decent radio down here and not long at all.
We have no AAR throughout most of the South, but we sure have plenty of Limpballs and InSannity.

Geesch, most of the South voted for Bill Clinton - both times - and that was before the aforementioned radio entertainers were all over the dial. Correlation? I think so.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
79. Funny that in this part of the deep south we have a *gasp* black
democratic mayor!! :eyes:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
93. Given that you are from Louisiana--
--wouldn't you have to admit that Huey Long was a pretty populist kind of guy?
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Agreed. The Civil War is history. I've lived here for 50 + years
and I disagree with you completely. It's been my experience that most people "here" have been educated well enough to speak for themselves.

Please let them & thank you for your opinion.

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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. assimilation is starting to occur even there...
think of the Pakistani doctors, the Indian hotel owners, the Hispanic laborers...
In some areas like Atlanta, blacks are moving back. Some Northerners are moving in certain areas.

The South is starting to change. Very slowly.
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luckyleftyme2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. THE SOUTH WAS STRAIGHT DEMOCRAT UNTIL

THE SOUTH was noted as a sure bet for the democrats until the late sixties. The big change came with intergration in the schools.
Most of those southern republicans were raised in democrat homes. IT was an act of defiance.
BUT THAT ERA IS DYING.Yes there is still racial problems but it's getting better.
As far as the bible pounder goes: the rate of divorce,adultry,child abuse and sex offenses is higher in the south than the north east.(could it be those hot peppers?)
Its time we all pulled together as a people and got this nation back on track.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Not so hard to believe..
"You are going to find this extremely hard to believe, but Southerners, in their hearts, are still fighting the Civil War...."

------

Many in the south feel that way.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I'll flame you.
Virginia - HELLO?
Tennessee and Arkanas - turning bluer every election cycle.
Florida - would be blue if not for Jebbie.

I'm sorry, but I disagree HEARTILY with your assertation. I was born and raised here and I'm not still fighting the Civil War and neither are any of my friends - also born and raised here.

Maybe you need to branch out of Louisiana more.

Hell, my city, in the deepest darkest neck of red woods voted blue the last few election cycles. And Knoxville used to NEVER vote for anyone but a Republican (yes, the county still votes red, but the city is blue).
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BamaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Are you from Knoxville?
My dad's family is from Knoxville and his dad was a Teamsters organizer from there. ;) We're all obviously Dem lol. I think that's an area that could definitely be blue.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. Yep - K-Town
The Teamsters all had Ford banners - all the unions did - it was great!

Ford carried the city, but, of course, lost in the county.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. thanks for the flame, but in my OP, I mentioned
VA and FL as turning more blue, and I think that is because of the retired people from the North moving into Fl, and the Washington DC crowd branching out into VA....Tenn, KY, are "border states" and are more assimilated than GA, MS, AL, LA, TX. Let's face it, who wants to live in Mississippi, Louisiana. My hope is for Atlanta to turn blue, but the rest of GA will take eons. Yes, the Deep South can go blue, but it will take a long, long time....so why not direct limited resources where they can do the most good?

(I love the South, wouldn't live anywhere else, but I know how it is down here...it is worth trying for, but will take too long.)
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Well, we all did vote for Clinton, except Virginia and one of
the Carolinas.

It hasn't been that long - and I think with the right candidate - a populist - we won't have to wait all that much longer.

You may be right about Mississippi and Alabama, but I still hold out hope for Georgia - afterall, Atlanta's there.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
80. I LOVE Mississippi and so do most of the others who live here, so
to answer your question about who wants to live in MS? I do. And people like you making such SHITTY statements like that... :puke:
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
50. Arkansas isn't particularly "turning bluer"
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 10:38 PM by Art_from_Ark
It's basically the same now as it was 40 years ago-- Democratic control of major state offices, two Democratic Senators, 3 out of 4 Representatives are Democrats (3rd district has been red since '66). But when Presidential elections roll around, Arkansas refuses to vote for a non-Southern Dem. The last non-Southern Democratic presidential candidate to win the state was Kennedy back in 1960.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Hey Ann,
I appreciate the thought and "sense of things" which you convey. I respectfully disagree with you on a few points.

Never say never. :)

Assimilation will probably take as long as Reconstruction did, maybe longer.

Again, I say, give your average southerner something to be invested in beyond their immortal spirit, and great things may happen.

Change will take a long time. Now, you can take that to mean "we shouldn't even try." Or, you might take it to mean "we'd better get started, there's a lot of work to do."
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
66. AnnInLa your attitude is what cost the Democratic party the southern votes.
I live in Texas. I am tired of the Silk Stoking consultants writing my vote off. I am tired of the Texas Democratic Party "Leadership" deciding that any truly Liberal Progressive candidate must be defeated (Even when they win the Democratic primary).

In short you attitude is insulting to we southerners who can and will support real progressive candidates.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. No, it's not 'practical'. Here's why:
If our Dem challenger to our repug congressman (AL, Dist.1, Mobile area) had gotten ANY money from the state or local organization for a good TV commercial that had run for a couple of weeks before the election I firmly believe she'd be in the freshman class in January.

She raised $12,000. $1,000 from our little 100+ member Dem club.
He had $750,000 and didn't spend a tenth of it.

Our own congressman bemoaned the fact that even though he won, his 'core' stayed home in record numbers.

State & local Dem organizations said they "had to concentrate money where they had a chance of winning."
Well, they blew a chance here.
That's what happens when you "abandon" an area.
"Never, never, never give up."
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
78. False false false!!!! I am a deep southerner as is most everyone
I know! And we ARE NOT still fighting the Civil War in our hearts. I wasn't raised and "bred" on it. Nor were any of my friends. Shows just how smart you are.
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Skit 'em, Home Girl!
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
84. Pardon me if I continue to vote Dem/Lib!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Abandoning the South would be contrary to the 50-state plan that Dean has been implementing. (nt)
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you and Amen and a great big KICK!
From this son of the South.

Bake
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why can't "the south" vote for candidates from "the north"?
It's not us that needs to get over anything. It's the south.

Would it kill them to vote for a yankee? It seems that way...
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I don't know either, and I live here
I'm telling yall, it's a mind-set. It will take a looong time to change that mind-set.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
82. Kind of like bigoted mind sets!
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Because the north is seen as elite and people think, "How can
that John Kerry possibly know anything about what it takes to survive on what I make."

Bill Clinton wasn't seen that way.

It's not so much a "yankee" thing and an elitist thing - and the radio entertainers of the world have seized on that and made it "so."
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Bill Clinton was from Arkansas though. Thats the south...
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Yes - but that's why people thought he was an everyday Joe.
I don't make up the country's perceptions of one another, but that's what they are.

People in the South - AND the mid-West (which is far more red, but always gets a skate on this board) think people from the coasts THINK they're better than us.

And, do you know where we got that perception? From Northerners coming down here and trying to tell us how to do things. I thought they MOVED down here to get away from the things they left - why are they bringing it with them? :shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Um... no.
The South is TIRED of people acting as though we AREN'T even Americans - as though we're the "red-headed step-child" after something that happened more than 100 years ago.

We're not any more or less racist than the rest of the country.
We're not stupid (despite what the OP thinks).
We're not backward.

We ARE a little more laid back.

It's a backlash from years of being accused of being things we're absolutely not.

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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. I agree. I am not a redneck. I dont own a truck or a confederate flag.
I don't have a crush on my cousin. My mom isn't also my grandmother or whatever inbreeding senario someone could come up with. I never got pregnant at the age of 12, either.

The only remotely southern thing is my accent wich shouldnt be a factor in someone judging me on how smart i am. People down here actually make fun of northern accents, too, though lately, i've tried not to as much.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
73. And I like your user name
Tinfoil tiaras: conspiracy theories with class.

:thumbsup:
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
87. hehe, thats an interesting interpretation
i like it :hi:

though it's actually a line from the R.E.M. song, "E-bow the Letter" :)
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
89. But, you see, those are all southern stereotypes. And there
is nothing redneck about owning a truck!
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. i know, i was telling people that it wasn't right to stereotype people
sorry it came out wrong or anything. its hard to know what people are really saying on the internet..
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Don't apologize! You are right! Some things don't come across
the way they should over the computer!
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
83. Well apparently here in the south we aren't "true Americans" because
we should be abandoned!!! :eyes:
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. It depends, the person in question has to seem genuine, which may
very well mean something different to the "average" southerner and a "yankee".

It was too damned easy for the whole "he voted for the war" to be used against Kerry because in this day of sound bites the nuance of realizing that the IWR required GWB** to go back to Congress, etc. was easily lost and could be spun to seem disingenuous. I don't remember the exact quote, but the day that a reporter asked Kerry something about if he had known that day what had been uncovered about the faked intel leading up to the Iraq fiasco, and Kerry answered yes I knew it was all over. My husband called home within a few minutes and stated that he just totally lost the south, even the people who had started to turn against Iraq. Why? Because it seemed like phony crap, in other words, plain talk is easily understood is also a hallmark saying down here. I hope that makes some sort of sense.

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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Ummm...
that can happen. It might help if a Northern candidate came out of the closet and actually spoke in favor of southern needs. Running around with a surfboard while wearing spandex doesn't impress people trying to put food on the table.

So, you can cop an attitude if it brings you joy. To hell with those nasty southerners. That attitude won't accomplish anything, but it may make you feel better when you realize Jeb takes over in '08.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
58. I voted for Kerry and Michael Fucking Dukakis,
the most absurd candidate in the history of American politics.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
18. Democrats picked up 4 seats in the South this year in the House
and 1 in the Senate (Webb). We gained one governorship (Arkansas). Writing off the South would be colossally stupid. So what if we lose there more often than we win. We must make Republicans compete there, lest they be able to devote more of their resources to other states.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yep - and a BLACK man came within three percentage points
of being a senator.

It takes longer than four election cycles to win it back - but it can be won back and we're on that path now. Too close to abandon us, I'd say.

Besides - and for the millioneth time - how come no one says we should abandon the Plains States? They're far more red than the South.
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #18
94. Not all of the south is hopelessly Republican
FL and VA have a lot of yankees, and AR has remained Democrat at the local level despite the realignment of the rest of the region. TN and GA have yankees, but not enough to change the state to the same extent that FL and VA have been changed.
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. the south will rise again...
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 07:02 PM by tinfoil tiaras
as a democratic stronghold, i hope.

For president in 08, we need a Jimmy Carter-type candidate (the last time the south ever went for a democrat was in 1976 when it was Carter vs. Ford). And if said canditate is a moderate to conservitive democrat, put a liberal democrat on the vice presidential ticker (us southerners don't really care about the vice president. We read the first name on the ballot and thats enough for us :P ). That, im sure will win some of the southern states.

And in case people forget, the south has a large almost 99.9% democratic minority population. That plus the Carter-esque canditate in 08, imho, will bring back at least some of the south to the democrats side.

I don't think we should abandon the south. All of these "we should abandon the south" comments merely fuel the stereotype of all liberals as elitist snobs. And that's bad :(
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Good points
I don't think either Carter or Clinton was seen as progressively liberal here. They were both pretty moderate, and were obviously strong Christians. If the Dems ran a very conservative person, just left of center, maybe the South would vote for him/her.

But, that's not the way I would like to see the Dem party move...I want it to move to a more Progressive/Populist agenda, to the left if you will. And, that's what Southerners (Deep Southerners) will not vote for.

Does everyone above the Mason Dixon Line consider themselves Northerners? No, you do not. In the South, you have the Deep South, the border South, Texas and Florida. You have different regions of the South, so for yall to tell me "look at Florida, look at Virginia," you are not really talking about the Deep South. I'm betting yall that Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas (South/West) will not be voting for a Dem president in a long, long time. It is remarkable that Louisiana has a Dem governor...but New Orleans mainly elected her, and mainly elected Mary Landrieu, but you will notice that these two women are conservative, conservative Dems.

So, if you want a more liberal Dem party overall, you cannot woo the Deep South. If you want a more conservative Dem party overall, there is a chance. I am not looking for a more conservative Dem party.
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I agree. I don't want a more conservative Dem. party
Thats why I said maybe we could run a liberal democrat for vice president. Most people around here never really pay attention to the vice presidential canditate, so that would be the best way to sneak a liberal democrat past the south.

I'm from the deep south and I agree. Virginia is NOT southern, in my sense of the word. Neither is Maryland or even Florida. We had a democratic governor (before Haley Barbour), though I didn't know if he was a liberal democrat or a moderate to conservative one. And we might have a good chance of picking up a dem US senate seat when either Lott or Cocheran retires (I think it'll be Cocheran first).
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. And, we are looking at things from the WHITE point of view
The ONLY way for Dems to take the Deep South is to run Progressive/Populist BLACKS for office. (I'm going to say "Blacks" because African American is too much to type, sorry.)

I can't tell you how many Black people won't even vote because they think they are just voting for the same ole white people....they honestly think it will make no difference to their lives at all...just the same ole white people. My god, Blacks outnumber whites in many, many places in the South, but they won't go out to vote, and sometimes I don't blame them. The only time they get energized to vote, is when there is a Black candidate. And, most of them don't consider Obama Black. Why in hell the Dem party is not out in the Deep South actively recruiting Black people to run for office in all layers of government, I don't know.

It is so ingrained in Whites....Democrats and Republicans alike, that our government should be run by mainly Whites....we will not win the Deep South until that very very large minority of Blacks can see Black people in all offices of the govt.

And, THAT's how you win the Deep South. good luck with that.
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yeah...I see where you're coming from
Southern democrats are almost all the time exactly like the Southern Republicans. Case and point-the Secretary of State of Mississippi. Go google him. My mom used to work for him and he is a DINO to the nth degree...
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Yeah - but Tennessee and Arkansas are.
And we both have Dems running our state governments.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Again, I disagree.
In the Deep South you must give people a reason to feel invested within this country of ours. You must make it possible for them to earn a living wage. You must give them room to do something more than simply survive.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
30. This is why coarse-graining is a bad thing.

If the president was simply the person who got the most votes, then it would make sense to campaign hard in the South, because every vote would count.

But my understanding of the American electoral system (although I may be wrong) is that in most states, all the electoral college votes go to the same person.

That means that there is no point in campaigning unless the outcome is in doubt.

As such, the best strategy in the absence of other concerns would be to abandon not merely those states you're sure to lose (mostly Southern) but also those you're certain to win.

However, in practice, the presence of other more finely-grained races for Congress and local office, and the fact that you lose votes in the swing states if the media accuses you of abandoning certain states, means that that's not so obviously a good idea in practice.

But nevertheless, the only point of campaigning for president in an all-or-nothing state where the conclusion is a certainty - of which I believe there are many - is the secondary benefits, and I think that's a bad thing.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #30
101. You are correct about the electoral college.
And that is exactly what happens in the Presidential years: both "safe" states and "red" states are completely ignored.

However, this it is contrary to Dean's 50 State Strategy, and I sincerely hope that the next Presidential candidate will at least do SOMETHING in every state. Hell, I live in Texas, and we would have been THRILLED beyond belief to get at least some campaign literature from the campaign. We had to pay to print our own because we WERE by heaven going to have a campaign here even if we had to do it ourselves.

It really doesn't help the bottom of the ticket (local offices) when the top of the ticket abandons you. And the bottom of the ticket are the people who will be trying to run higher up on the ticket in 5 years. We have to take it ALL back and think long term.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. She/he already HAS something else to be invested in....
... If she/he decides that gay folks getting married and black folks doing well is more important, then fuck her/him.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Feel better now?
It sounds like you needed to get that off your chest. No bs, you sound angry with a reason.

When I say "invested," I mean, "wow, I have a job I like, I can provide for my family and I can make sure my children have better opportunities that I did." As it stands in the South, you aren't likely to have a job you really enjoy, you can't provide little "extras" for the kids, and you're getting by from paycheck to paycheck. When life sucks that bad, it's not surprising that people start to believe "life is supposed to suck, it is a punishment for our mortal sins, and the closer I come to maintaining a 'pure' life,' the more likely I am to discover bliss in the afterlife." Saying it again: give people something to be invested in other than their immortal spirit, and you may see change.

Btw, racism and racial tension is 10x worse in the North than in the Deep South. The difference is laughable at times.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I felt wonderful to begin with, Captain Erroneous Conclusion.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. btw - please don't ever change your last 2 sentences - that's CLASSIC!
:rofl:

Actually, feel free to change it - I got a screenshot for posterity.

Phew - you can't make shit like that up. :rofl: :rofl:
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Happy to give you a laugh.
There is a lot of animosity expressed between blacks and whites in the South; it tends to be part of communication. In Philly, at least, the racial groups simply ignore one another and pretend the other isn't there at all. Which exactly do you consider to be more racist?

Enjoy your giggles; they just make you seem like another out of touch northern armchair liberal. And, like you said, you can't make shit like that up.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. They only make me seem like that to fools.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Let's see, I think the response is
:rofl:
:rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think we have to compete in all states
I'm confused why the Repubs have such a lock on the south. I think some Dems can win there.

I don't agree with your analysis why we abandoned families in New Orleans. I think it's race and poverty and mostly it's just easier to ignore those in need. We, Americans, exist on very shallow news and the immensity of the disaster in NO takes too much effort and focus to address. I don't think it would be different in other regions.

I live in liberalville. I'm never quite sure why we are so liberal. Politics sometimes are confusing. I know the national media and many citizens ridicule our liberal values but I'm never quite sure what they are ridiculing. We seem just like everyone else except we vote, and donate, for liberals.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
49. The best way to win the south is to use Jesus against the Pukes.
Southern Liberals should be preaching what religious Progressives 100 years ago called the "Social Gospel," an economically progressive message based on Jesus's teachings ("the meek shall inhieret the Earth" and all that).
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. I go to a pretty liberal baptist church
and we do alot to help the poor, and like, we really mean it when we do it. We don't just help for show like some other people do, if y'all know what i mean....

I'm trying to be a good liberal christian. the spotlight has been on the fundies for too long.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
51. The Democrats need a strategy in all regions.
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 10:52 PM by izzybeans
That strategy should vary from region to region and it should not involve ignoring the folks who are already democrats. Being from Indiana I can tell you the national party took the democrats in this state for granted. They all but abandoned it and started sending in carpetbaggers to run in tight races (i.e. 'the bloody eight') because they were so disconnected from the state and its people that they'd forgotten there were enough democrats here to win a damn race. Dr. Dean did much to change what appeared to be an arrogant stance toward "country-folk"-even though most of the voting population resides in metropolitan areas and their satellites. Instead of partnering with local dems the thirdwayers tried to triangulate from a distance and got blown out throughout the 90s. I for one am glad the party reinvested here. They're absence was glaring, as it is/was in the South. Case in point is 2006 and the bloody eight. The democrats actually ran a prominent local democrat against the clown prince of do-nothing republicans and invested campaign resources here. Rather then rely on a loose network of ardent supporters to canvas for a candidate no one had ever met, they blew the GOP out with a county Sheriff and a media campaign that rivaled the GOPs. I hope the democrats learn that turning their backs on any part of the country is both short-sighted and arrogant. But most importantly it has been and will be self-defeating.
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ejbrush Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
53. I feel "The South" is code...
Just little old me with my tiny post count chipping in here, but here goes.
I've lurked here for a long time now, even occasionally post when taken by the spirit. I feel that for a lot of folks not from the south, "The South" encompasses a swath of territory streaching from Canada to Mexico that is charecterized by tractor pulls, bumpkins, hats advertising herbicides and a dearth of culture. Not to stray from the OP too far, but has anyone really *looked* at a county-by-county breakdown of the voting trends in this country? It is a pancake of starchy Republican batter with the occasional blueberry of liberalism. I am from rural Wisconsin, and proud of it. I have met a lot of good southern people, and my take is that many of them are proud of their rural roots, even if they live in the city for generations. Not accepting of their past and mumblingly acknowleging a ancestor that lived in a shack, but proud to say "my grand-daddy was a farmer 'till the day he died, and I would be too if I had the chance." I bristle when it is implied that I'm somehow less something-or-other because my bedroom window growing up had a fine view of, well, trees, or that "neighbors" referred to the Schraufnagle's down the road half a mile.
I think the problems that the Progressives face in "The South" cannot be explained away without looking at rural America as a whole. The way I see it, reaching out to "The South" means reaching out to everyone living outside major metropolitain areas. A Fifty State strategy that only hits the population centers will continue to yield the same results next election as the last - gossamer thin margins - no matter how much money is spent. Folks, we've got to try and win *states* not cities. You want to win Georgia? Get people out into the woods to talk to a logger trying to raise a family and convince him that his sweat is going to be rewarded with a better wage and good health care. You want to win Mississippi? Get people to go a truck-stop on I-55 to talk to the waitress serving coffee and convince her that her kids will be able to go to college even if money is tight. You want to win Kansas? Get out there and sit in the cab of a combine for 14 hours and convince the farmer that his crops are as important as Wall Street.
The Republicans have a great advantage over us in that they are astoundingly capable and enthusiastic bull-shitters. They can use their mercurial tongue to change the subject from "why did the mill get shipped to Indonesia" to "Liberrruls want to take your guns" faster than, well, something very fast. My powers of analogy fail me yet again, ah, cursed Blatz. Anyway, people are starting to see through this, though, finally. Maybe it's the war, maybe it's the economy, who knows what it is. But there are cracks there now, and woe unto us if we fail to see the opportunity and ignore "The South" for the Others to keep.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Bravo
You've rendered every other response redundant. Well said, well reasoned, and worth paying attention to. If you're able, you should shape this into a stand-alone post. It should be widely read and discussed.

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ejbrush Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Aw, shucks...
It ain't all that hard, wunce ya stop thinkin' so hard.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. It really was an excellent post!
Welcome to DU,ejbrush! :toast:
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. Seriously, what you're talking about is widely overlooked
Even on DU, where a lot of polticially astute people hang. You've said it succinctly.

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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. Yes, yes, yes!
We need more insights and suggestions like you offer and fewer concessions. And, we do need to devote time to talking with people as individuals. We can win these traditionally red regions, but there is no quick fix and there is no phoney way to do it. It will take effort and time, and it will not occur within a single election cycle.

Excellent post with many good thoughts.

-fl
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. Good post, the South-bashing is just a form of anti-rural classism.
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 11:34 PM by Odin2005
Most South-bashing, and rural-bashing in general consists of upper-middle class city-slickers bashing "inbred, uneducated hicks," I grew up in a rural area and I consider such comments DEEPLY offensive. We rural people are not hicks, we are not inbred knuckle-draggers, we are fellow Americans.

And Welcome to DU! :hi:
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #61
98. or not; see my post #97. i live in rural SE kansas and let me tell you that the
Edited on Sat Nov-18-06 01:56 AM by HardRocker05
blue-collar folk here have nothing but contempt for anybody who has ever been to school beyond high school, and never-mind what they think about gays, women, non-whites etc. I am an engineer and i have found myself referred to as an "engin-nigger" (amongst other things) by the hourly people at my plant, even though i have bent over backwards from day 1 to treat every one with respect, regardless of their position. *They* bash the rest of us a hundred times more than the reverse, but it is precisely because of their selfish, hostile, clannish nature that they complain more than anybody else and the rest of us waste way too much time and energy trying to assuage their poor little rural white-guy ego.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
70. Wow. This is the best post on this subject. EVER!
I'm in rural NC, and you have NAILED IT!

You should post this as a stand alone post. You've hit upon an important truth here, my friend.

Welcome to DU!
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ncrainbowgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Hey there fellow North Carolinian!
:hi:

(Nothing brilliant here= just wanted to say hi!)
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. Thank you!!!!! n/t
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
76. No argument from this westerner, BUT...
Edited on Fri Nov-17-06 07:27 PM by Sapphocrat
...it's going to take Southerners to reach Southerners. Nobody's going to listen to Yankees or Westerners (like me, who are even more clueless about what makes the South tick, since people like me didn't even get here until well after the Civil War supposedly ended).

The only flaw I see in your otherwise flawless take is the time involved. The big advantage the Wrong Wing has over us is a ready-made captive audience of scores, hundreds, thousands all at once, every single Sunday. It's wonderful to be able to make a person understand what voting their own best interests really means, but tackling the problem one person at a time is one hell of a rough road to hoe when you're up against the churches -- that not only already know the right language to use, but don't have to address anyone's "best interests"; that's all easily circumvented by tapping into the faithful's deepest fears ("You're going to burn in hell if you vote for the party of the homosexual agenda!").

Call me a pessimist, but you're talking about a very long, slow (albeit potentially perfectly successful) method of turning the South around. That's fine -- it will "stick" a lot longer than some quick fix -- but in practical terms, what can possibly be done within the next two short years?

Am I rushing things? Yes -- because our only hope of survival is 2008: not even in winning the White House, but retaining Congress (and, we can only hope) gaining more seats.

OK, everybody can tell me to stop peeing on your parade now. I just don't see the practicality of doing something that should have been done for the past 40 years, when our immediate need is so critically urgent.

P.S. Dean's 50-state plan is fine, but I'm addressing ejbrush's thoughts.

P.P.S. ejbrush, welcome to DU.


On edit: Stupid typo
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
97. FYI, not all South-bashers are northern city-dwellers; many of us have intimate
knowledge of the South and it's 'peculiarities.' i grew up in florida and am currently living in very rural SE kansas, and i tell you that i have heard more bashing of 'effette' (sp?) educated professional people than i have *ever* heard from northern liberals bashing southern red-necks. i am seriously hesitant to tell people here that i have a college degree or they will immediately look down their noses at me with contempt. i am not kidding. i am so tired of having to answer their baseless criticisms, and the bottom line is that they stem from a very negative, critical, hostile, clannish culture which unfortunately characterizes the south more so than any other region in the country.
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
54. It was Lyndon Johnson who said that by a stroke of the pen he was dilvering...
the south to the GOP for the foreseeable future by signing the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
62. All the sorts of things
(some of which seem to be encouraged by what seems to be a more Southernly attitude - at least of the Republican variety) like "States Rights" and a decentralized Federal Government (ie. let the States fend for themselves) - work against the South.

When the Federal Government is distributing more money to those less well off - places like Mississippi benefit.

I agree with this sort of thing:


"My other answer is less an answer and more of a solution. Provide educational grants. Lots of them. Lots and lots. Raise the minimum wage so a single mom can make a living wage and still have time for her kids. Increase funding towards Section 8 Housing. Increase funding towards HeadStart. Give your average southerner something to be invested in other than their immortal spirit. It’s that simple. Do that, and there will be no reason for bigoted questions like “should we abandon the South” to bubble up from deep within the recesses of “enlightened” minds."



If I were to abandon anything - it would be to abandon the type of argument that works against that.

I think education all over the country - and often esp. in Urban areas needs more funding. I think that the way education is funded in this country needs to be changed. Education is not equal when it is not equally funded. Of course now - we have way too many resources going to the military and nothing left for anything.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
65. I love that last paragraph!
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
67. Jesusland!
Here is an old map. Jesusland has shrunk a bit.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/bljesusland.htm
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
68. Man, you write GOOD.
And I mean that from the bottom of my Alabama heart.
Very well written and very much to the point.
You a professional?
:thumbsup:
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
72. '04 votes for Bush: Michigan--48%, Maine--45%, NY--40%, WI-49, MN--48, CA-45, IL 44, NJ-46,
Washington---43%
Oregon --- 48%
Maryland--43%
Rhode Island--39%
Vermont--39%
Massachussetts--37%
Delaware 46%

Don't forget, Ohio, Iowa, and Indiana went RED. So did, Colorado, New Mexico, the Dakotas, and Nevada.

Damn, these Southerners are just ALL OVER THE FREAKIN' PLACE!

(cross posted, but fitting)
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
77. Wow!! Just wow! The Lord knows I am only invested in
my immortal spirit as a dumb-ass southern idiot. We'd be better off if we just abandoned all of the assholes and bigots!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
81. Way'at frustrated_lefty!
:hi:

I had to take a detour from Paris Ave. to St. Anthony when I was driving through Gentilly today. Even the majority of the houses on the main boulevards are still in shambles. FUCK! This pisses me off! :mad:
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
86. so, enlighten us - what southern city has a 50% unemployment rate?
I'd like to know being that I'm in the South.

Of course, I'm fine with the Dems abandoing the South - I'd rather have them in the fed gov't than no where at all.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
91. Abandoning the South to the Repugs is where the Dems went wrong First!
By appealing just to the African-American vote...they forgot those Southerners who supported the African-American Civil Rights Movement. Dems lumped those of us who supported Freedom/Civility and Rights for All into some Fundie Movement with yokels who couldn't talk straight and idiots of Beverly Hillbilly's fame.

By cutting off the White Southerner who supported Civil Rights it allowed the Fundie Element to take charge. Carter and Clinton had the opportunity to repair this...but the attack of the Repugs and Clinton's cozy up to Northeastern and Western Money made him forsake his roots.

Not all Southerners are what you folks here on DU think we are. And many DU'ers ARE Southerners. Deal with it. Good folks here..who aren't Trent Lott/Bill Frist/ and your Alabama/Georgia/SC Repug Creaturs from the SWAMP.

Yes...we've been taken over ...but we are OUT HERE WORKING! Trashing all Southerners with a Paint Brush of Same Color only hurts our cause..
:-(
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
95. you can't blame 100s of years of backwardness on uppity northerners; i'm
i'm sorry, the south has some serious cultural problems, and yes we should continue to engage them or there's no hope of change, but i am not going to kiss some whiny, cry-baby bigot's ass and tell them they're better than everybody else and the world owes them big time, which is what they seem to think.
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #95
100. Yeah, well so's your old man. :-)
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #95
103. ...and what you're accusing US of is prevalent in YOUR post...
Edited on Sat Nov-18-06 11:16 AM by BikeWriter
:evilgrin:
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
99. i always thought the south has potential. give hope and prosperity a chance
i always thought the south has potential, and more than just politically, too. i believe if people are given hope, educational opportunities, economic opportunities, and a feeling of inclusion, things could work out better.

it was rather funny how often we come across "refugees" and other freudian-slip comments after katrina. it was as if whole swaths of america had to be reminded that the south really is populated with americans, instead of 'just southerners.' perhaps it's the poison that comes with repeated self-ostracism and martyrdom, mixed with a heavy dose of external stereotyping, but eventually the pride of being southern came to eclipse the core of their american-ness to far too many parties on all sides.

reinclusion and reinvestment in all our american people can only be a good thing. the south is just as much as any area that needs help. and considering their problems, it might be a good place to start. healing starts when the pushing away stops, and it's time to start healing america again.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
102. Dean's 50 state strategy worked. Note the number 50
(for those that say we should).
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
104. I'm just a good ol' boy
I never mean no harm.

I am making my way, the only way I know how.

Life's just a little bit more than the law will allow!

YEE-HAWWW! *Dixie*

*pours self a Jack Daniel's marvelling at the shit DUers will argue over*
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