On the police, some observations

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well we have had lots of fun discussing police behavior. This is not going to defend the cops but to make several observations. I will start with freak republic. Every time we have an incident involving the police, they will defend the cops come hook or crook. Why? The right has this wonderful blind spot where the cops can do no wrong.


Is this correct No, and in fact when we see it, I personally laugh

Now let us turn the mirror around.

For the left the idea is a tad different. The cops are always looking to abuse their power and are freaks who will hunt you down at the first chance.

Folks what I just described for BOTH sides are caricatures of reality.

The cops are not always right and are not always wrong. Like anything else, whenever tapes emerge, and more of them will, we all need to take a step back. Realize that unless it is a camera mounted on the cruiser with full view of the event as it unfolds from stop to end of contact, you truly are entering the incident in the middle of it. That is number one. Number two, you always need to give the benefit of the doubt to ALL involved, cops and victims. Why? As I said, you really do not know what led to the point you are seeing things unfold. Once you see that one or the other side erred, them pass judgment, and demand that something be done with the guilty party, budged or otherwise.

As civilians you also should demand that your police department get cruiser-mounted cameras, protects everybody. That you get a civilian review board, and that you take responsibility for your police department.

No, not all officers should have a badge. Why? The screening is intense, but they still miss about two percent of people who should not be cops. That said… every time officers engage in questionable behavior they must face the music, and that will only happen if civilians demand it. If you live in a town with community based policing, your department will also run less of a risk of developing an us vs them attitude… which is far more common in departments where all your officers do is chase the radio and stay in their squad cars. (Can any of say LAPD for example?) Alas, community based policing takes money, lots of it.

However, let's go back to the origin of this post.

The views on both extremes are caricatures, extreme caricatures of what really goes on out there.

Oh and finally, do try to remember this, the population your average police officer deals with, is the five percent that does not play well with others. The reasons for that are complex. This can lead to problems with your officers and this is why if you want to avoid, or diminish serious events that SHOULD and currently are under review, you have to take some responsibity for actually owning your police department and giving them what they need to do their job (them cameras and other communication gear is invaluable). Remember, in the end the officers are your employees, so you should supervise them.

Ride along and attending academy classes are a good place to go for that supervision. Both increase the contact of officers with civilians, aka their employers, and gives civilians an idea of what the officers face day in and day out.

Off my soap box

[Little Wing]

1. Your soapbox is excellent

There's been a lot of assumption, and a lot of name-calling, and little factual evidence regarding the recent UCLA event. The video enflames emotions, and that's understandable, but the video doesn't tell the entire story.

[Der Blaue Engel]

3. It tells enough of the story that it is clear that cops abused their power

Whatever else there may be to the story, they tasered an individual for lying down, multiple times. That is excessive force. How anyone could conclude anything else is beyond me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. On that particular incident it is under review

and after it was enhanced by the news media... it is apparent that the cops engaged in inappropriate behavior, but just like I will not convict a suspect just because he was picked up by the cops (your free republic attitude), I will not convict the cops either. I will patiently wait for the review.

What is a fact is that regardless of what the review board finds (and I am not privy to ALL the evidence), the officers gave a very black eye to their department.

But I am willing to wait... and if the officers are found to be wrong... well the University owes that young man free college and the officers should be shown the door... OTOH if they are found to be right, which IN MY OPINION, FROM THE TAPE, they are probably are not... then reprimands are in order, if not outright dismissals from the force.

Now to that particular case... when you are a student at any college in the State of California, starting with the community college level all the way to the UC system... when you take possession of your student ID, the fine print says that you should show it when challenged by campus police... having been a student at both the JC and the State College Level I know that.

But that is just a small observation... most folks truly do not read the fine print.

;-)

[Little Wing]

11. If I could nominate a single post

Yours would be it.

[readmoreoften]

34. Yeah, but you realize that you are getting kudos from people

who've watched the tapes and have publically stated on this board that they DON'T think the cops did anything wrong by tasering the kid. I have no problem with waiting until the trial to convict (by the way, I'm not on the jury, so I'll have any damn opinion that I please about the matter) but there are some people on this board who APPROVE OF TASERING STUDENTS WHO FORGET THEIR ID CARDS.

Frankly, if you think that's in order. I don't know what to say to you.

Yeah, no shit, the kid didn't have his card. I'm faculty at a university and do you know how many times I haven't had my ID card on me. You better believe if I was running to teach a class and the security guard who has seen me 50 times that week "pulled rank" on me I'd be pissed and cranky. What? You think I should be tased too?

I'm friends with the majority of the security guards I deal with on campus, in fact, our unions even support one another. But does that mean that there aren't a few TYRANNICAL LOSERS among the bunch who are bitter because they couldn't make the police force. You bet there are. You better believe it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Once again

I am not defending the officers in question... or the incident in question.. I made a general statement of the caricatures floating out there

If people believe you should taser people just because... I say to them, volunteer at the academy for the Less than Lethal training. I think after the first time they'll get it, just how painful it is, and realize why tasers are part of a threat matrix and use of force matrix, but one that in this case IT APPEARS was not followed, and if these officers are found to be in the wrong (most likely given testimony from witnesses and enhanced tape), they should be fired. Yes it is that simple, if they are found guilty. Fire them... they're chances of putting on a badge ever again will be next to zero.

[sweetheart]

2. you haven't met the LAPD

The police in LA are fucked up, if you haven't met them, then you can postulate that good comes from them,
but if you are ever in an encounter with LAPD, watch the fuck out, they are the prison guards of LA,
protecting the prison from the inhabitants, protecting society from the poor, the young and the dark skinned,
and ellos hablaran espanol ademas, so they can fuck people over in mexican too.

The police are just as likely to shoot you as the bad guys, watch out for them. I'm sure that all the 'other'
LAPD officers are just happy joyful peace servants, and i've run in to a bad batch, ... or maybe the guards
keep the prison on lockdown between riots in the massive ghettos of central LA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I have

that is why the Feds have not let go... trust me I know far more about LAPD than you will want to know.

LAPD is a special case of a department that needs to be truly cleaned up from the raw recruit (ok maybe not him or her) all the way to the Chief.

[Oeditpus Rex]

9. I need enlightenment

Legend has it, when William Parker became LAPD chief in 1950 he set out to clean up what was widely known to be a corrupt department, and had done so by the time he died in 1966.

If that much is correct, when did the LAPD fall apart?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Gates held it more or less

and he did have his problems by the way.

It's in the last few years that city council politics, some events in the city and other things that really have made LAPD a nightmare

They have been under Federal supervision for the last twenty or so years

Their problem starts at the Academy. Most departments in california are POST certified, which means they are trained to the same standards and from essentially the same play book. Alas LA is not. In fact LA is self insured and they have their own academy. So they have this attitude that they are better than though, and they don't play with others... at all. Whether this is you as a civilian, or a police officer from any other jurisdiction. If they went to the LAPD academy, like the officers in question, they may be seen as slightly better than swamp life.

But their attitudes really start at the academy, and that is why I said, LAPD is a case all on its own.

Yes I had the privilege of seeing that stupidity in action, by the way. To say that the officer almost got kill for being essentially stooopid is to put it midly...

I guess one solution for LAPD would be for its citizens to DEMAND, in a petition, that LAPD JOIN the POST system... that may start feeding up the chain officers trained to play well with others.

[William769]

4. Where were you today when I needed you.

Excellent post, thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Watching movies and editing

;-)

[Mythsaje]

8. For the past twenty years

the police have increasingly been trained to consider the rest of us potential enemies in the War on Drugs. From the days when the local cop was KNOWN to the local residents, and was greeted as a part of the community, we've now come to the point that nearly EVERY citizen feels a certain amount of dread when the black and white car pulls into traffic behind him or her. We not only don't know the officer's name, chances are we don't WANT to know it...at least not until it becomes particularly important for one reason or another.

It's not just the people who have something to fear who suffer this dread. It's pretty much everyone.

Now I used to post on the policeone message boards for research. A lot of the cops there came across as ordinary people. Then again, from the attitude of some of them, I get the feeling that over-the-top behavior wouldn't have been tolerated.

I think there's a small but sizeable minority of officers who ARE, by nature, bullies. When I was a teenager I had a couple of cops stop me on my way home from work and threaten to sick their K9 partners on me if they ever saw me walking down the road dressed in dark clothing again.

Certain people just shouldn't become cops. People who are looking for authority they don't deserve, or those with a reputation for pushing other people around to begin with.

My wife used to be a Correctional Officer. She's of the opinion that it should NEVER be a long term career because it can ruin one's faith in one's fellow humans. Too much time spent among the worst examples you can imagine can turn one's heart a little hard.

There's a reason that divorce is an occupational hazard for cops. Most people don't deal well with the stress of that job day after day after day.

And, when all of this is put together, it makes dealing with cops a little like a game of Russian Roulette. Unless you're completely obedient, and subservient, you're at risk. And that's not right.
Not at all.

[acmejack]

14. You are exactly right, Mythsaje.

It is very hard to regard the police as public servants. To "Serve & Protect" has been an empty motto for years, made so, as you observed, by the war on drugs. The police, motivated to treat citizens, especially the young, with authoritarian tactics of disrespect, bordering on contempt, establish a pattern of distrust among the young especially, which persist throughout their lives. This problem is most pronounced in minority communities where the police really are the enemy.

Of course, in a Country where two million people are imprisoned, the greatest percentage of citizens of any country, why shouldn't they be considered the enemy? In a police state, they actually are.

Winning the War On Drugs

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. No it is not,

at least not for the police department in my town... who still take that motto very seriously

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. As I said in the original post

about 2% of officers make it through the screening process who shouldn't.

Now I will speak to California, (except LAPD, they don't play well with others, even cops)... when a police officer goes through the academy they are warned of phases in police work, and the us vs tehm usuaally is expected to hit about year ten in a career. It has nothing to do with the war on drugs, but the five percent of the population that does not play with others. Going into why and whether this is a constant in society, we can and should in another threat. But trust me, even as a medic, there were frequent fliers we picked up, and at times you get fairly annoyed to put it midly.

[Mythsaje]

24. I'm willing to bet you that

if you posted a poll here, you'd find that nearly EVERY person on this board has had an experience with the police where the officer was less than civil and/or respectful. You may SAY it has nothing to do with the drug war, but that's simply not true...to which many present and past LEOs will attest. Check out LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) if you don't believe me.

The police agencies have become increasingly militaristic and if you don't see that, you're wearing blinders as thick as the Freepers do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. They are not becoming, POLCIE AND FIRE are

Paramilitary organziations by the very nature of how they are orgazined. Believe you me, I know that. But the rough edges of a paramilitary organization come out more at certain periods historically.

just like they did i the 20s, what do they have in common? The two eras that is? Oh yeah prohibition of some kind.

How did that rought edge change back them? I am giving you the tools to change that... take responsibity for your own department... and the whole war on drugs as I have seen it in the flesh, and how well it is working :sarcasm: I hold a very similar attittude to many cops who will not admit it in public. (Including some DEA agents) It's a failure and we should have overall legalization and taxation, but that is a whole different matter of discusion.

I can only speak of the department I happen to be served by. They are mostly profesional, and my contacts with them have always been corteous, with the level of tenstion you should have when you are placed under arreest. In case you did not now it, when they stop you for a traffic infraction, you are being arrested, and it has been that way forever, not because of the war on drugs by the way.

[Mythsaje]

26. You're lucky...

Your experiences with your local police agency are not all that common across much of America, particularly in urban and suburban areas.

Small town America, away from the larger cities, is probably fairly well insulated against some of it, but not around here. I've seen cops go out of their way to harass ordinary civilians yet seemingly ignore rather large scale drug dealing operations within YARDS of the police station and courthouse.

And, yes, the police are a paramilitary organization. This does not change the fact that they're growing MORE militaristic over time. The issue of arrest upon being pulled over for a traffic violation may be in the police perception, but it sure as hell isn't the legal p.o.v. A person is NOT arrested until he or she is taken into custody, which is why statements made before arrest and the reading of Miranda rights are considered a completely different thing than statements made AFTER the person is officially "under arrest."

Then again, I've heard it more than once--the police are generally VERY ignorant of all but the most simple legal matters. Many sure as hell don't understand the Constitution. Since some jurisdictions specifically reject people who test as TOO intelligent, this isn't all that much of a surprise. Intelligent people ask too many questions.

There is one police department in the region that simply infuriates the prosecutor's office because they have, for years, made it a habit to bring totally untenable cases into court. I was a direct beneficiary of this one time when I was a teenager, when the PROSECUTOR actually took my side in a case because the cop who arrested me was an idiot.

From everything I've heard, this department is STILL as screwed up as it was back then...some twenty years ago.

MY local police department made the national news a couple of years ago. The Police Chief gunned his wife down in public. Believe me, folks are working on reigning them in.

Compared to some jurisdictions in the region, they're actually not too bad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. My agency is San Diego PD

hardly a small town police force.

I credit three things for this

The Chief of Police, he actually plays sergeant once a month... responding to calls and talkign to his citizens, and no he does play cop in La Jolla either but some of the most dangerous areas of town...

The Academy... they are pounded from word go on constitutional rights

The Civilian Review board, which is probably one of the best in the nation. And that should be a model for all police agencies

As to you being placed under arrest when you are pulled over, if you are pulled over for any infraction that is the legal point of view, the ticket you sign is you are letting go on your recongnizance. It has been like that for ever. Talk to a lawyer, it might help.

The arrest is for a misdemeanor, a minor one in fact. And if you have ever gone to traffic court, yes it is an actual legal case that you can take to trial. Trust me, I know, I had the prividedge recently.

Now in that particular case the officer made some errors that I noticed becuase I know cops... and worked along side them for years, like not running the plate, and trust me I contacted a supervisor on that.

Now for criminal cases and Miranda rights you are 100% correct...

But when you are stopped for a minor ticket infraction, yep, they could take you down town, if they wanted to. So knowing that helps.

By the way, I do sugest that you guys look into the SD Civilian review and form one, ASAP, it will help. And yep cops make mistakes in cases all the time, and by law they are actually allowed to, to protect them from lawsuits, (and why usually wwe don't see cops pay a real price when they pull certan stunts, but a civilian review commision will help)

By the way, you are describing my local department twenty years ago... and if things continue the way they are in this community, I will not be too shocked of they go back to the good ol' days, if yuo get my drift.

[Mythsaje]

38. I may be a little under-informed when it comes to traffic stops

considering I've never had a moving violation in all my years of driving. Got popped once for expired tabs, another for a broken turn signal, but never a moving violation.

And since all of these things happened when I was an adult who happened to be Caucasion, I did not myself suffer any undue harassment.

I'd like to see a civilian oversight commission in play here, to tell you the truth. But I know that a LOT of cops resent them because, as they say, unless we do "the job" we can't possibly know anything about how it is.

There are a lot of professions with similar attitudes. And I tend to resent it every time I hear it. It tends to create an echo chamber where the only thoughts that are accepted as valid are ones that are part of the collective perception.

In my opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. The locals fought it as well

the same reason... how can you? And it came becuse this department was BAD fifteen to twenty years ago... it was quite honestly LAPD light.

Here are some of the things the Civilian Review Comision does

1.- If you have ANY relationship with the police departmetn, need not apply. Yep that means me. My husband was a cop in this county.

2.- All commisioners need to attend Academy Classses so they can understand the training once a quarter, and do a ride along once a quarter, that way they will know what the cops face, and ride alongs in La Jolla are not the usual places to go to either, rather South East, and Souther Division.

3.- No commisioner stays on for more than four years... theoretically you could do 12 if all the chips fell right, but usually nobody does for more than four.

And yes the locals fought it and now they apreciate it, becuase it has saved their bacon a couple times, as well as found for the civilian in question a couple times. So they see the bias against them, which is what they feared, is not there.

[Mythsaje]

42. I wouldn't mind sitting on that sort of commission myself...

Though I doubt they'd want me there. <g>

I have an over-inflated sense of "fairness." At least that's what my wife says. She uses it against me all the time. LOL

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. You are in San Fran

try to organize people, it took a local voter aproved resolution to get it going

[Mythsaje]

86. Nah...much farther North

Tacoma, WA

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. If you have the intiative system

it may take that.

Some history, the resson SD got it, and it now applies to the whole county, was a spat of killings from SDPD, it got so bad in the 80s that adds were run on benches with targets and bullets holes. (in the course of six months they gunned down over 16 people)

So there were several things that were done, back them

1.- The citizens demanded the review board

2.- The board was originally temporary, and there were things they recomeneded, one of them were changes in training, another the wide deployment of less than lethal techn since some of the people killed were mentally insane with knives

That changed, over the course of five years, not only the statistics, but also the relationship of the police deparment and the people they served.

Hell over the last year you could see it. At the demonstrations, they showed only with uniform, no riot gear. Ironically the only time they broke the riot gear was then the local skin heads showed up. And it was because of them....

you may have seen the demonstrations on the TV by the Mexican Ameicans on May First, LAPD deployed riot gear, San Diego Police Agencies mostly deployed with helmets on, and that's it. And the helmets made sense, just in case things flew. Except for one incident, (right now before the citizens review board in Vista where the Sherrifs went aparently overboard) they were mostly peaceful... no tear gas. and only helmets.

[Mythsaje]

98. Very good points, all of them.

I think we SHOULD look into that sort of thing up here. Though personally I haven't seen a lot of trouble with the Tacoma PD, they do have a reputation among other folks.

On edit: I do, however, have a few issues with being given what amounts to an "evil eye" for simply nodding at one in acknowledgment. I don't enjoy being appraised as a potential criminal just because I fall within one's sight.

[TAPat]

122. Just my little story here as to most everyone not trusting

cops these days - or is it that THEY simply don't trust US?

A number of months ago my partner found a purse down along the side of our house. It had obviously been stolen (no cash, credit/debit cards or checks) and we debated about how to get it back to the owner.

We decided it would be best to run it down to the local police station so they could contact the owner and see if she was okay and arrange to get the purse back to her. Keep in mind here that we live in a pretty small town - around 30,000 population.

So, our daughter and I took it down - I explained to the cops (behind inches-thick bullet proof glass) what the deal was. What happened? They looked at me like I was from another freaking planet! I just stood there and stared back at them. Finally one of the guys asked me for my ID, which I produced thinking that they just wanted my name for a report or something. They never wrote my name down and bitched me out for having an out of state license. I mean, shit!, here I am trying to be a good samaritan and end up defending myself for just having moved to the state 2 weeks earlier and not yet having my *proper* ID - like I am the criminal. It was really hard for me to keep my cool.

And that was a real crappy welcome from the local cops, I must say.

Wow, rant off... :yoiks:

[AJ9000]

10. Well I'm readin this just about an hour after someone knocked a hole

in my side fence and tried to enter my back yard.

I think maybe my lights going OFF might have scared him away. I took up a good defensive position and called the policia.

Although I had a hand full of Glock and think I would have taken him easy if he entered my house, it was nice to see the cops show up hosing the area down with their flash-lights.

Like alot of things, the police aren't just one thing. You've got good and bad out there. I suspect one day, everything a cop does will be video recorded from a small camera that is part of the uniform.

[acmejack]

15. Would promote a little responsibility.

There are a lot of out of control people out there.

[personman]

12. "you always need to give the benefit of the doubt to ALL involved, cops and victims."

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."
- Archbishop Desmond Tutu

"You can't be neutral on a moving train."
- Howard Zinn

"The burden of justification is on authority."
- Noam Chomsky

If there is a justification for tazing a man repeatedly who is on the ground, handcuffed and paralyzed from previous tazings, I'll be glad to hear it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. No you are not

I have taken the point of view of the US Code, Innocent until proven guilty.

By the way I am not justifying involved in the event in particuar. That is NOW under investitgation and from the looks of it, they should... that is my opinion, not legally standing, be given at the very least reprimands, if not outright getting fired from the Department. But that only can and should occur after an investigation and all the facts come out

Why is this concept of innocent until proven guilty so difficult for you to get insofar as cops, and the right has it insofar as victims?

It is a principle that has served us WELL for quite a well and I don't know about you, but I am not ready to throw it by the wayside.

[personman]

132. I never stated we should convict the cops without a trial...

Just that if you see them bludgeoning (electronic or otherwise) a person for no reason (when they're on the ground cuffed, it IS no reason), if you are being neutral or pacifying, you are aiding the oppression. It will persist as long people tolerate it.

[elocs]

13. I see the OP to be about caricatures of reality

and the police story was simply the vehicle for it. Here at DU we have no problem in using extreme caricatures to describe the other side, but we cry mightily with righteous indignation when they do the same to us. We both use the same techniques in painting the other side with a broad brush, seeing nothing wrong with it and being assured of the absolute correctness of our positions.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. The OP is a case in point.

"They tend to," "we tend to."

[Syncronaut Seven]

16. Also realize many of this country's police forces harbor pockets of violent corruption

Kind of like a fraternity of thugs, or more mildly and accurately put: Parts of our country are run by Mexican style police. But with a more sadistic bent.

You would be better served addressing that cancer, and offer reparations to it's victims, than telling us we have perceptual problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. This was a statement in general

not a statement of particular departmetns

By the way, having worked side by side with MEXICAN COPS, so I'd have a huge freaking clue... I can tell you of some Departments in some surprising places, that could give lessons to them Mexican cops, ok.

[MadHound]

17. I've known good cops, I've know bad cops, hell I've got cops in the family

And frankly, over the past thirty-five years, the number of bad cops has been increasing. A great deal of the reason for this has been a shift in the attitudes of the police. Protect and serve used to be a motto with some validity. But over the course of the past few decades police attitudes have shifted from that of being public servants to being guards at an outdoor insane asylum. This sort of creeping callousness has directly led to such outrages as tasering a handcuffed student, or pulling a motorist out of her car and beating the shit out of her over a speeding ticket. These incidents have become increasingly common, and the lack of public trust in police reflects this increased abuse of police powers.

Add in corruption scandals, the public being stripped of their civil rights and liberties, and the increasing creep of the police state, and the reality starts to resemble the caricature.

If you know a long term police well, buy him a beer and sit down and talk to him about these issues. I've done this on more than one occaission with my cousin, and he is absolutely appalled by this shift in attitudes. I imagine that you will find this is true across the board.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I've talked with cops

I also come from a police family, and they range from retired from the force to just went to an academy.

A lot of it depends on the academy, seriously. My local cops are trained in one where Constitutional law is emphasized, as well as rights of suspects and what the heck they're suposed to do.

That said, they chase radios all day, so they have precious little time to interact with citizens. But when we have had any demonstrations, they are there en force, ironically not to bust our heads, but protect us from the skin heads.

But this city also has a fucntional civilian review comision and I WISH they had cameras in their cruisers.

[alarimer]

124. New Orleans is a case in point

The absolutely shameful behavior on the part of the hundreds was detailed in The Great Deluge by Douglas Brinkley. Hundreds deserted their posts during and after the hurricane. There was looting by cops and, in the aftermath, many did little to help their fellow citizens trapped in their houses. To be fair, that police department was notoriously corrupt for years before this and I think their leadership was particularly ineffective and there was no plan in place in the event of a hurricane.

Now a hurricane is an extreme event and a lot of thing went on there that were beyond the control of the police, to be sure. I certainly don't blame them for all the problems but they clearly have not been hiring the best of the best.

I think authoritarian personalities are drawn to those professions in which they can wield a lot of power. For some it is putting on a uniform and it may bring out the worst in them.

[readmoreoften]

28. Just because "all cops aren't individually bad" doesn't mean that

you can't just the morality of a particular videotaped incident. This is the same sort of knee-jerk bullshit reaction that makes people immediately defend or minimize the crimes of a US soldier that rapes and murders because "not all soldiers are bad". Of course they're not ALL morally bankrupt individuals. But that doesn't not excuse the individual actions of the campus security guards in the UCLA case. Yes, the all videotaped situations have a before and an after. They are plucked from an ongoing narrative. That video might not capture him "mouthing off" to a security guard or even slapping one. (Although eye witness testimony completely contests that pro-police fantasy).

But it doesn't excuse-- under any circumstances-- what we do see and here. An unarmed, handcuffed, pleading college student in a library being shocked repeatedly (according to eyewitness testimony he was even tased, while in handcuffs, on the buttocks). What we see are snippets of police dragging him, we see him fall early on, and we hear his tortured screams.

This is open and shut police brutality. Anyone who doesn't see that is-- well I don't want to say what I think of you in a public forum, but let's just say, I sure hope I never have to depend on you for anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Read above that particular case is AS IT SHOULD

under review... and I expect to see consequences for the officers once this is all said and done

This was not about a PARTICULAR case but a general statement.

When you see a video tape, usually you are entering the action in the middle. Usually there is more to the story than what you are seeing. That is why investigations have to be made. This one will be reviewed, and from the tape, once it was enhanced, it does not look good for the home team, aka the cops, who should see effects to their careers, aka face punishments or a firing or two.

But the statement about the caricatures stand. The Left beleives the cops are out to get you, while the Right believes the cops can never ever do any wrong whatsoever. I take a more centrist view and I want all evidnece on SPECIFIC CASES to be reviewed before I truly jump into conclusions. It take a far more measured aproach and wait until a tad more emerges than just a fluzzy tape that had many backs.

Why? I tend not to convict anybody before a trial, or in this case a review board.

Now to Abu Graib, you are comparing apples with oranges. There were several people, who SHOULD have blown the whistle, and fortunally specialist Darbee did. These are in order, under the Geneval Convention

Any and all medical personnel... who should know better

Supervisory personnel

What we had was a failure of the chan of command going all the way to the President of the US (accordign to the latest CIA release Bush wrote the Presidential Finding)... can you say war crinmes? And I wish Bush to face a War Crime, but the chances of that happening are anywhere from zero to none.

[readmoreoften]

29. Great cop story

I was arrested in a protest and my arresting officer was (a) cheering us on, and (b) told us that he was quitting the force and moving to Miami to try his luck as a lounge singer. He said (quote-unquote) "I'm sick and tired of arresting people for just livin'"

[Mythsaje]

31. I got picked up in SF once

with a bunch of others (I'd stashed some of my stuff--poetry and fiction--with a group who was sleeping in the park and my stuff got swept up as the cops moved through, so I, stupidly, went down to rescue my stuff and was arrested as well).

We were sitting in the holding cell, handcuffed to a low rail that ran along the benches, and singing, much to the amusement of one of the arresting officers. In fact, we all sat there and joked around with him for probably an hour while he filled out some reports. A real nice Asian guy.

It's funny the things you remember out of the blue, isn't it?

[Jed Dilligan]

33. Well, if you like FR's caricature so much better

You can post this there!

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Both are caricatures

and that is the point. Neither of them is real, or close to reality.

Both are black and white, and both are wrong becuase reality is mostly shades of gray

Did I hit a nerve perchance?

[Jed Dilligan]

37. The only nerve you hit

is when you defend fascist police brutality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. If you cared to read you'd understand I am not defending it

just not willing to pass judgment or find people guilty before they are charged, and sent before a jury... or in this case a review commision.

This innnocent until proven guilty shtick has served us well for over 200 years, are you telling me you want to get rid of it?

And you are also telling me that the officers in question don't deserve it? Trust me, from the tape it does not look good for them and the OP was a general statement, did not apply to the case in question, just in case you missed it.

So exactly nerve did I hit with the caricatures I am noticing ON BOTH SIDES?

[Jed Dilligan]

44. Look, we all know the justice system will not punish their own

This puts cops outside the "person" status you ascribe to them. The only way to respond to their abuses of power is to PROTEST, on this board or elsewhere. Your saying "I'll wait for the court to decide" is equivalent to saying it's a-okay if they go unpunished.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. The justice system does punish its own

not as often as some would like, but it does.

In fact, cops do go to jail from time to time, and are a nightmare for them jailers since they are targets among the general population. In fact, recently a cop went to jail for rape of suspects in this town. The judge threw the book at him, by the by, and gave him the max allowable by law.

To adress this particular case... their liabilty will be in the civil couts assuming they are let go. Why? Cops by design are allowed to make mistakes. Why? I'll tell you why. Cops would be sued silly for the right and wrong reasons.

Now the argument we should and could have is how do you change those laws that actually protect badged personnel from frivololous and not so frivolous lawsuits and whether you want to do that.

There are resons why you should.. this particular case for example

And there are valid reasons you don't want to... mostly cops will turn in their badges and stop responding if there was a wave of frivolous lawsuits. And yes that is a worst case scenario, the other one is that cities would defend their officers driving coffers empty, with a similar end result.

I believe we need to find a happy medium. When cops make mistakes that don't cause injury fine, but when these mistakes are willful (this case), then they should face all the consequences and all protections removed.

But you are right, I am taking the side of the cops by being reasonable and not jumping to conclusions.

[Jed Dilligan]

49. Yes, you are

And you deny the reality that prison will not be as hard on the officer than a civilian rapist--he is a member of the most powerful gang inside (the cops).

I would be happy to have the "protections" in place as long as cases that got past them were also MORE severely punished--as in, the DEATH PENALTY for cops who do what the UCLA cops appear to do in the video.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Son you truly are clueless

if a cop goes bad he or she is usually not protected by the cops and dead meat for the prisoners. That is why cops in jail are a true nightmare for wardens.

You are funny and most importantly have a huge blind spot in your vision.

So standing for the principle of NOT GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT is defending the cops... wow what will they think of next?

Thanks by the way for providing a perfect example of the caricature we are facing

You may try them shades of gray that exist in the real world where the rest of us live in ok.

[Jed Dilligan]

64. Then why is Justin Volpe still alive?

If I were in prison and a target of violence I wouldn't be a "nightmare" for the guards... I would just be killed. You admit what you deny.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Have you ever herad of

protective custody? You have not... or you are that clueless

[Jed Dilligan]

75. Yeah I have

and it's pretty hard for ordinary prisoners to get into, I understand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Tha is why that cop is still alive

and if you think that is a contry club I have a bridge to sell you... perchance with ocean view in Nevada

[Jed Dilligan]

83. He hasn't been raped and murdered,

which would be the case were he not getting preferential treatment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Key WORDS for the readying impaired

PROTECTIVE CUSTODY... AKA THE HOLE

[Jed Dilligan]

89. Which is much better than being gang-raped

and kicked to death.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. We will have to agree to disagree

after all beng in the hole for 23 hours a day has been shown to have certain very bad effects. If you think that is a vacation, so be it... your ideas

[Jed Dilligan]

94. Well, I hope you're right...

because that guy deserves the worst.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Oh he will get it

go to Amnesty International, they have extensive info on that

And we are starting to see the first effects from people who have left the shoe, straight to the streets from Pelical Bay in psychotic or near psychotic states.

(And tnat is a practice that you can say is rather cruel and inhuman)

[madmusic]

35. Very false statement:

"For the left the idea is a tad different. The cops are always looking to abuse their power and are freaks who will hunt you down at the first chance."

That is not true and the Left in fact predominately supports the police. When it comes to crime and protection of the police, there is little difference between the Left and the Right. Indeed, this issue probably swung the country further to the right than any other single issue, which is why we have highest incarceration rates in the world.

The difference is with incidents like this when the Right supports blind faith in the police. This incident at last may be the spark that ignites the raging flame against the prison state.

Let's let it ignite and burn. It's about time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Not ffrom raedying psts

if you read enough you only get a very intersting view from both the edges.

Try it sometimes, it is fascinating. Heck I thihk I could actually write a book on both edges and their caricatures about each other, the military and law enforcement.

As to what swung the country to the right, a previous poster got it, far closer... blame Nixon and the war on drugs, a war that is going oh so well that many Cops I know, even DEA agents, who'd loose their jobs, would love to legalize drugs.

By the way a similarly paralel event happened after prohibition, though not as bad.

[madmusic]

47. Pro "War on Drugs" =

Pro law enforcement = pro prison = pro conservatism. That is only one slice of the pro conservatism pie.

I read plenty, thanks.

[madmusic]

56. Yours is the typical Right-wing straw man...

A damn liberal who is pro due process and anti-police brutality is pro-crime and "coddles criminals."

We are on to that and now say, someone who is anti-due process is anti-liberty and anti-American.

No matter the facts of this case, we can see enough to know the student was denied due process and was punished, maybe tortured, without due process of law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. You are again misunderstaindng, willfully by the way

I am all for supervising the cops, Hell I ahve repeatedly said, SUPERVISE your own employees with several tools, including civilian review commisions

That said, there are incredibly huge blind spots on both sides... I just poiinted to them... they are caricatures of reality

[madmusic]

116. Maybe that is why San Diego is so Red

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/voters/results/general.xml

Like over the last 12 years, the left got blind spotted by the Reds. This is the sort of "time for bipartisanship" ploy the right is trying to do now. Suddenly, despite 12 years of the police state never being wrong, we are asked to compromise, can't we all just get along, the caricatures are extreme. The right uses every extreme caricature it can, and that includes for its own benefit and power when being "tough on crime."

Maybe that is why San Diego is so Red. It's sure as hell why we have the largest prison system in the world.

Don't get me wrong. I have the greatest respect for all firefighters, EMTs and ambulance personal, and for those who work emergency rooms, and for most cops. But the cops are well organized and for example the prison guard union practically dictates crime laws for their own job security.

It wouldn't surprise me if they have paid "calm down" trolls here. That's how devious they are. The Taser companies might have them too.

Fuck that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Sadly san diego is not that red

especially the closer you get to the coast

In fact I live in a pretty blue district, my city council woman is a dem, my delegation at the state and federal level are dems, but I am sure you knew that

Sadly, many of the dems in this county don't vote... don't particpate and don't give a shit either. Or if they do, they confuse this SUPERVISE YOUR COPS with bipartinsaship.

by the way, if you care to read up on HOW this county got a civil review commision and WHY you might learn something... and it was FAR from bipartinsahship by the way. The cops didn't want it, the mayor didn't want it, but the people rammed it down their throats, and now they are considered one of the most profesional departments out there

but keep judging... from afar.

[Rex]

40. People should know that cops deal with the part of society

we civvies only read about or watch on TV (that is if we are lucky). Sometimes a cop can snap mentally. It happens probably far more than Law Enforcement will admit. They have crappy jobs, like the military. Some will abuse their power, because they've snapped. Some will do it, simply because they can.

If it wasn't for cops, we would live in an anarchy. There needs to be more understanding and supervision IMO.

[Jed Dilligan]

46. That's a load of bull

By "us" presumably you mean the bourgeoisie... Most of Us (as in Americans) have equally negative dealings with cops and criminals on a regular basis. Law enforcement in this country is sick. Where to begin fixing it? Other than legalizing drugs, I would abolish local PD's and bring all police under state control, then deploy them according to crime rates and force them to live where they work. The cops who jumped ship after that would be replaced with a totally different personality type: Humble Peacemakers instead of Authoritarian Territorialists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Prime example of the caricature I wrote about

By the way, she's right, the cops deal mostly with the five percent that does not play well with others. And some departments have that problem too, not playing well with others, but if you want an example of how your nightmare would not work... look at federal police forces in places like Colombia ok.

If you think our wrest examples of law enforcement are bad, you have no clue how bad it could be.

Oh and federal and state controlled police, isn't that the Gestapo? Yes ironacy alert

(oh and for the clueless, depending on department and cost of living departments do require officers to live and work in the city limits, only and that is ONLY when housing is available at a price a police officer could afford)

[readmoreoften]

52. No, National police force is gestapo.

His solution is hardly a caricature, it gives real solutions to real problems. The fact that you think that cops living in the communities they serve is somehow ridiculous or fascist shows that you're not really interested in solutions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. What part of they already do

are you missing? That is in places where they can afford to.

[Jed Dilligan]

58. BULL-SHIT.

Oakland PD cops make six figures and live in expensive suburbs like Blackhawk and Danville. They could buy four houses in Oakland for the price of the houses they live in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Then go to YOUR CITY CONCIL

and talk to them about reuquiring from Oakland PD officers ok. TAKE RESPONSIBITLY for your Department, and by the way, also require a CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARD, heck offer to seat on it.

I know that were I live, on a cop's salary we cannot afford anything... ok... not even in South East San Diego... yep that crazy

[Jed Dilligan]

65. Oh so you actually ARE a cop,

Now I know everything I need to know. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. No I am not, but I know plenty of them

hell as a medic I WORKED along side them for ten years... and you know what Most are very descent human beings doing a crappy job

[readmoreoften]

76. Great. So the cops in San Diego are nice guys. They aren't in certain

precincts in NY. And they aren't in certain cities in LA. So that's not our problem? Remind me never to leave my neighborhood.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. I went extensiely into the problem with the LAPD

and a trusist also exists that the further east you go the more problems

LA can be summarized in two words, SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS and they start at the Academy.

If you read above, you will find your answer to LA.

[readmoreoften]

84. Exactly. There are systemic problems that need fixing.

So why are you defaming progessive for criticizing those systemic problems as anti-cop?

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. I am not defaming you

just saying that some of your ideas of what police work is, or what they do are as much a caricature as the right

The OP gave you some ideas of how to fix the problems

For LAPD I will give you one that would start the solving.

You could go up and find it but I fear you don't want to read

- LAPD is self insured and have their own academy, I am sure you knew this. From the word go LAPD officers, cadets even, learn that they are better than anybody else. LAPD does nto play with others, unformed, civilian, does not matter

LA Citizens should demand three things

1.- LAPD whould join expost facto the POST system in the state of California. This will mean that their cadets will train under STATE standards and will have to learn how to play well with others

2.- Citizens have to demand a Civilian Review Commision, I have above posted how the San Diego Commosion works, even the history behind that one... that is a model of how you turn a police department around

3.- Citizens have to demaand that officers who cannot work with civilians, aka have one too many reprimands, and are near retirment, be transfered from the field to administrative functions wehre they essentially seat at a desk all day.

4.- Since LAPD is already under Federal Supervsion (I am sure you knew this already too) should deman open books on that Federal data and ask why the fuck over it hasn't worked yet.

Those are solutions... not pie in the sky... by the by, they also require you take charge of your employees, aka the cops

[Jed Dilligan]

88. It's not a matter of where they are,

it's how you meet them. I've ridden along with cops, they were affable and friendly. I'm sure they wouldn't have been if I met them on the street.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Again depends

if you meet with them on the streets (general statement), and you are courteous to them, they will be with you.

If you cuss... well they go into the threat matrix

As a medic I had a situation that quickly went from treating patient to self defense for fear of my life, in what seemed to be an instant.

[Mythsaje]

117. I'm always courteous with cops

but, then again, I'm courteous to everyone. It's a social anxiety thing.

On the other hand, that same social anxiety thing makes me very suspicious of authority figures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. The problem

and it comes down to this truly is that both sides (the extremes) engage in almost magical thought. On the one hand you have the but they can't do no wrong and the other they can'd do no right

Any time you interact wthi the cops, how that contact will go truly depends on how courteous everybody is, from the moment the contact starts

Hell in the bad good ol' days a local cop tried to get a bribe from me... I asked for badge number, in a courteous manner, he brisled, and ended up giving me a verbat warning.

Could that had gone in a multitude of ways inclding attacked for being a minority? You betcha/

[Mythsaje]

121. The basic fact is that they have more discretion with how to deal

with discourtesy than we do, particularly when it comes to dealing with THEM.

And, yeah, there is some level of "they can do no right" here, but I think, overall, most people see the problem as systemic and not the fault of individual officers who are not, themselves, guilty of anything.

There IS a perception of a "Blue Wall" protecting some of them, and the fact that they seem to close ranks to protect people who shouldn't be protected. I'm not talking about "crooked" cops, per se, but those who may treat civilians with less respect than should be their due, or even resort to excessive force all too often.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. The blue wall phenomena

occurs in all fields, just less obviious.

You also see it with white collar crime and how fast corporations close ranks...

With police it is just far more obvious, a little less with fire

[readmoreoften]

71. Wow you're a cop and you didn't even admit that little conflict of interest? /nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. What part of I am not you cannot read

I WORKED WITH THEM FOR TEM YEARS as a medic...

[readmoreoften]

80. Maybe it has to do with your writing not my reading.

"I know that were I live, on a cop's salary we cannot afford anything"

WE CANNOT AFFORD ANYTHING ON A COP'S SALARY means that you have a cop's salary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. No I just happen to know them

a cop's salary in San Diego, will not get you much. especially SDPD... which is one of the LOWEST paid departments in the state

All it takes is a computer, some google skills and some interset... you seem not have the latter since your have your ideas about police, and how they will behave at all times

As usual as any good civilian you will bitch and moan, but there are solutions I have repeatedly given that WORK... to moderate any police department that are realistic and proven

Once again for the unwilling to read

Good salaries if you want to fight corruption

Civilian Review Commissions

Ride Alongs

Attending the Academy

Taking responsibly for YOUR EMPLOYEES

[readmoreoften]

63. Oh please. Cops live in the communities they serve?

I don't fucking think so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Depenmds on the department and regs

some departmes require it, soem don't. you want that to happen, make that part of internal regulations.

[Jed Dilligan]

53. Oh yeah, Colombia's nightmare is entirely the result

of how policing there is structured... Nothing to do with OUR drug habits...

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. It is part of the war on drugs

but their police force problems go back at least 300 hundred years, and partly are based on the Napeoleonic system of law, but I am sure you knew that.

Now you want a model that MIGHT work or go bad... depending, look at the Carabinieri

[readmoreoften]

51. Great solution. /nt

[Rex]

61. You're living in fantasy land.

Nationalize/federalize the cops and dole em out based on data from a mainframe. Give them psychometric exams to determine the right mindset. "Escape is impossible, prisoners will report to the bay room.' :rofl:

Do you also have killer robots and evil barons? ;)

I agree with two of your statements - legalize drugs and LE is sick in this country but I think it comes from a source within our own government. I think we build new penal institutions in the name of making money more than doling out justice, nowadays.

The whole idea of mass control is authoritarian by design. No way around that. Most cops are humble peacemakers. You must see a lot of crime.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. People who apply to police departments

are already given extensive psychometric exams anyway, which I am sure he knew already NOT

Even with all the screening they still miss about 2% of them that should never be badged.

I am also sure he knew that.

But you are right, the authoritarian bent exist on the edges of both sides...

[Jed Dilligan]

72. Oh, I'm the authoritarian now, officer?

It must really, really hurt your poor little feelings to have the tables turned, anonymously, for half an hour, in a place where what happens doesn't matter...

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. What feelings

you are the one for a National Federal Force... not me

mostly it does not work and it leads to more problems than it solves.

[Jed Dilligan]

78. Never said Federal

State

I'm off, have fun Custer...

[readmoreoften]

67. Maybe it seems that way from the gated community.

What it's utopian to ask anything out of our damn police force? Why do other Western countries not have a problem with police brutality then?

It's easy to laugh at the question when you don't give a good goddamn about the answer.

[Rex]

82. Oh yes, down with authority and all that crap.

There is only two reasons you stop at a traffic light - you don't want to die and you don't want a cop to give you a ticket for breaking the law. Move to the left of that and you have some form of anarchy. Cops unwilling to do their fucking job because it isn't worth it anymore. Goodluck getting food at the grocery store or getting gas at night. We take things for granted and then go apeshit when a cop abuses his power. Fire the cops or reprimand them if they did some wrong doing. Nobody is laughing at anything. What a stupid thing to say.

[readmoreoften]

90. What the fuck are you talking about? Where did I say "down with authority"

Who said I don't want a police force? I want a police force that doesn't beat the shit out of people because they forgot their student ID, is that too much to fucking ask? And, yes, I called you on your BULLSHIT about how only police deal with difficult populations because only someone who lives in a bubble would say that. I live in a major urban area and I hear gunfire on my street. I know the value of a police force and I know the danger of a police force with unchecked power.

Stereotype much?

[Rex]

95. Well I'm not laughing about the topic

Ya I know the danger of an unchecked power too. So fucking what. :eyes:

[readmoreoften]

97. The only person who says "so what" about the dangers of unchecked power

obviously feels there's no danger they'll ever be touched by it. :eyeroll: right back at ya

[Rex]

102. You go ahead and fear the law.

Whatever floats your boat.

[Mythsaje]

111. "Law," in and of itself

has no moral compass. One should always question the value of any law, lest one gets too bound up in the idea that law itself has more value than the purpose it's supposed to serve.

[Mythsaje]

96. Any time I drive across town

I see people violating traffic regs as a matter of course. Turning into the FAR lane rather than the near one on a left turn, "California" stops at signs and red lights, etc...etc...

People need to learn more respect for the laws of physics and cause and effect. Being afraid of the police ISN'T going to help matters in this regard.

And even if what you suggest is true--that the police haven't changed in the past twenty to thirty years (pure nonsense, if you ask me...particularly in suburban areas) people who are asking for more direct accountability for police are NOT advocating anarchy.

They're just suggesting that the police shouldn't be given rights the rest of us don't have...like the right to use unreasonable force against someone who may or may not be threatening them. WE sure as hell don't have that right.

[Rex]

101. Cops are tools that people abuse.

They carry guns and can arrest people. Sometimes they break their own rules and become worthless to justice. They have rights we don't have as part of their profession. Tools. Cops have changed just like the military has changed NOT. Not in at least 50 years. It is population control. Not a nice topic.

I just want them to do their fucking jobs and follow the rules. If not then they need to go. No magic nationalizing or redrawing of ideas about law enforcement. Oh yeah and I do believe there is a massive failure in the judicial system. Huge, chronic. I'm not defending bad cops here folks. Geez.

[Mythsaje]

105. I DO happen to think it's systemic

and growing increasingly bad over time.

Whether or not you're defending bad cops, you're defending a system that MAKES bad cops, and often promotes lawlessness by making a mockery of the very institution that should be acting to protect us.

You ask anyone, even someone who isn't doing anything wrong, if they get nervous when a cop car pulls out behind them... I'll bet that 90% of them will say they do.

Why is that?

Because a level of trust and respect that should be there is NOT.

[Rex]

107. I know it has grown worse over the last 6 years.

All professions produce bad professionals by a percentile and they should be dealt with. People should not let their environment brainwash them IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mythsaje]

109. I've actually heard/read some testimony

from former LEOs that suggest they ARE being trained to consider ALL civilians as potential criminals...which actually degrades the quality of treatment we can expect from them in general. Now the good cops are the ones that realize that most of it's perception, that most civilians are generally law-abiding and the laws that they may or may not "break" aren't necessarily important in the scheme of things. This is where officer discretion comes in.

But then you'll run across cops who see it as a rationale for pushing their own prejudices. I'm a white guy living in a predominately black neighborhood. I'm comfortable here, actually. But I'll bet a BUNCH of money that my neighbors aren't nearly as secure around the police as I might be...and for good reason, I'd say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. I will only speak from my PERSONAL experience

but when my husband went through the academy they were pounded repeatedly with the Bill of Riggs and the fact that they SERVE the community.. do they make boooboes every so often? Yep, I just heard of one more of them being black in La Jolla phenomena, so there is a lawsuit probably coming.

Now when talking to my sister in law, retired LAPD.. that attitude of us vs them exuded.

But... her dad, from a neighboring PD, and they all held badges at the same time, his training was at a POST certified academy, and again he was pounded with serving and the bill of rights

This is why I keep saying a lot of the problems START at the level of the Academy. If we are going to solve them, we need to take responsibity for them.

Oh and incidentally the cop I dealt with as a patient who was an LAPD, he ended up at the local trauma unit, and the local cops dealt with the LA cops mostly on a professional basis, and kept their distance. It was actually commedic if not borderline tragic.

Me, I got a get off traffic stop free card that only worked in LA... aka a business card, for putting my life on the line to get stoopid off the line of fine.

I was told... show that anywhere else, you'll get extra tickets.

[Mythsaje]

115. Tit for tat...

Yeah, I imagine that's pretty common in some places. In fact, I had a friend who was night baker at a Winchells, years ago, who got stopped driving drunk on the way home from a party and got an escort home rather than a trip to jail.

And you're probably right. It DOES come down to the teaching at the Academy, and willingness to weed out the people who could damage the whole program and institution because of personal issues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. You sure there are no problems wtih police brutality

in other countries?

WOW... here is a hint for you... the carabiniery carry an exra round in their guns that is never acounted for. Care to tell me why? Or for what?

[readmoreoften]

60. What spooky "part of society" do the campus police at UCLA deal with?

Oh, right, college students.

For bourgeouis whites living in gated communities, this may be the case. But those of us who are non-white, who are activists, who live in large cities, or any combination of the aforementioned, we live on the same damn block as everyone else.

[Rex]

69. You are getting the people and the cops mixed up.

There are no bourgeoisie groups that this discussion applies to. Are you saying the cops and college students or whites in gated communities are bourgeoisie?

Look up the BFEE and then get back to me. Most cops are good, they are little people like everyone else. Some get too much power and go crazy. It happens.

[readmoreoften]

92. Yes I am saying that gated communities in white neighborhoods are bourgeouis.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and make that assumption. And unarmed students in a college library are not hostile criminal elements.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. You know where UCLA is right

not in the best area of town

It is actually the same kind of population that SDSU Campus Police deals with on a regular basis...

They are euphemistically called urban campers by cops. And some are rather sick and a few do commit crimes. Oh and lccally they live in the bushes by the parking lots.

In my view them are a symptom of where we are as a society... and deserve their own thread, since they are a symtom of what ails us as a society.

The other are drug dealers which use campuses for their activities

Again the war on drugs, actually is part of this one and the national way to deal with it, LEGALIZE the Crap and tax the living daylights out of it.

[Mythsaje]

110. Tax it REASONABLY...

You tax it too far and you simply render the whole legal/illegal question moot. You can only tax it to the point where it's cheaper to get legally than illegally by a fair margin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. True but it needs to be taxed

[Mythsaje]

114. I agree...

I've known a LOT of potheads who've said "we'd be more than glad to pay taxes on smoke...Anything, if you'd stop harassing us."

I think it's funny that some of the Drug Warriors like to say that drug DEALERS want legalization. That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Greyhound]

131. I think you might be thinking of USC, UCLA is in one of the nicest,

most expensive areas of LA. In the heart of Brentwood, to the north across Sunset is the Bel Air Country Club and less than a mile to the east is the LA Country Club, hardly a shady part of town.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

118. Police are recruited from the general population

I'm not sure if there's a typical personality type that goes into police work or not. But I tend to think that, like lawyers, doctors, mechanics, teachers, etc. that cops represent a cross section of the public. I don't think that cops become heroes the moment they put on a cop's uniform. They have to earn that honor through their behavior. Some of them are very decent most of the time. Some of them are assholes most of the time. Most of them, like most of us, can be decent individuals or assholes from time to time.

But when a police officer is bad, it's really bad, because they have the power of life and death over us. And these incidents are nothing new. We're not becoming a more authoritarian society. One of the most disgusting cases I can recall involved Charles Oatman, a 16 year old learning impaired African American who in 1970 was beaten by the police in his jail cell in the Richmond County jail in Georgia. What's worse is that he was tortured before being beaten to death, as the autopsy showed cigarette burns on his entire body. The next day, when the Black community marched in protest, the police shot and killed six African Americans. For those of us who can remember the long history of police brutality in this country, it takes a great deal of understanding to forget the occasional hateful and barbaric incident and to remember that police are human beings too; some are all bad but most are normal regular people trying to do a hard job who have both good and bad tendencies inside of them.

[Greyhound]

123. Your observations are correct as far as they go, but you've left out the

most important part.

The police do not, as you assert, work for us, unless the us you refer to are the owners of said city. Our police forces are, or have been turned into, the enforcers of class division, assuming that once upon a time they weren't. The LAPD motto of "To Serve, And Protect" has, from its inception, always meant To Serve the Wealthy and Protect the Status Quo. The only thing that has changed is the increase in personally owned video recording devices, and they have merely made it a little harder to deny the reality. Look at the history of law enforcement, pick any period from the very founding of our country to the present day, whenever the common people rose to demand equity from the overlords, it is "law enforcement" that has beaten and killed them until they submitted.

I do not blame the officers themselves, they do what they are trained and ordered to do (although I am disappointed that they do it so cheaply, after all, when you are securing the ability of you clients to make billions, any good protection racketeer knows it is worth at least 20%), however that does not alter the reality of their assigned priorities.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Yes and no

the Pinkertosn, and I know you are thinking of the 19th century, were NOT police. They were private security as they are today

One of the realities is that people have forgotten or are frightened to exercise this control over their local police department. They are YOUR and MY employees, they work for us.

That said, we as civlians at times also refuse to pay what it costs to have a good and responsible police department.

I'd love to have community policing since it does reduce the us vs them attitude, but that costs lots of money... it also helps to increase that relationship wih the community that you need for officers to do their job.

LAPD... good example of many of the things that can go wrong. They have been told multiple times the kind of changes they need to ennact by the Feds to gd off Fed supervision... some of them include elements of community policing... the citizens of LA and the city council refuses to spend the money. One of them is as simple as mounting cameras in cruisers... again there is no money, and most critically no political will for the changes that need to happen with that department.

[Greyhound]

130. Well I referred to law enforcement as opposed to the police specifically,

but I wasn't talking about the private thugs that have been used frequently as well. I was referring to the use of police, national guard, and even the military to put down any people that dare to object to their abuse. From Shay's rebellion, to the Ludlow massacre, to the Detroit police that beat striking workers to death in the 20's and 30's, and many, far too many, more. Property and wealth have always trumped people and civil rights in this country and it is no different today.

LA is its own unique problem today, but it has been one of the worst forces in the nation since at least the 40's. Like the open corruption in Chicago, the LAPD has always been the private enforcers of the rich and powerful, and rarely, if ever, have they had to fear any repercussions for their abuses. Would Gates have ordered the force to pull out during the riots in '92 and let the rioters kill, burn, and loot for two days, if they had moved north toward Beverly Hills? Is it really acceptable for a 6'2" 220lb. 24 year old officer to draw his sidearm and blow away a 70 year old woman, weighing 87lb. and armed with a screwdriver? These are just a couple of examples of the innumerable, outrageous, offenses that LAPD has committed with no punishment.

The most disturbing thing though, is that is exactly what the sheeple want. We have open warfare in the streets of our cities and it is the result of the policy of escalation that has been in vogue in law enforcement since the 80's. Mandatory sentences, no attempts at rehabilitation, three strikes, no-knock entry, etc. The public loves this shit and doesn't care that they are surrendering their own liberty to a growing police state.

ETA: I just read one of your previous posts upthread and you are already aware of LAPD, so feel free to disregard that part.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

125. Spot on rant

And I'm not surprised you got so many "What? Not US!" responses.

[Election]

126. I think it's a mischaracterization to say that the right supports cops

Case in point? Waco ... Ruby Ridge ...

Funny thing is, the far right (FR) supports gun rights so much that their positions are in contradiction with major police organizations such as the FOP.

Also, don't forget that the FOP has endorsed several prominent Democratic Governors ... (Mike Beebe and Mike Easley to name a couple.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Don't get me wrong

there are contradictions in their position

Local right wingers love our cops, and our cops could do no wrong. They even fought the civilian review commission with the cops... but they don't pay the cops enough, and they don't buy the equipment the cops need

But I was not going into the contradictions... oh boy they are legendary, if you pay attention. Just the basis for this particular caricature

[greiner3]

133. Years ago I learned;

That there is a test psychologists use called the Minnesota Multi-phasic Personality Index MMPI. This test asks about 500 questions of the subject about what they like, don't like, etc... Then the test is graded and three sets of numbers are given indicating that person's particular personality score. The numbers for a career criminal, someone who spends most of their lives in and out of prisons are (I can't remember the exact scores, but the reasoning is still there) say, 178, 593 and 443. These three numbers come up consistently for these types of people. For police officers, the numbers come up as 178, 443 and 593. Same numbers, but slightly different order. Cops are close to being career criminals. That is why there is such a high occurrence of police brutality, theft by cops, divorce, suicide and cops in prison. Police officers, a necessary thing for our present level of society, but not the best choice by any means.