Fear and hatred of women, why so prevalent ?

[The Straight Story]

Disclaimer: I am a christian myself, ie - a person who holds a faith. I don't feel such is above criticism - I just don't like bashing of all faith ad hoc (anymore then bashing any group based on some of it's members is fair). My problem is with fundies of all stripes (religious, political, et al)

So I came across this tonight while doing some research:
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2001/10/04/stories/0304000h.htm

It's Atta's last will, written in 1996 - 5 years before he flew a plane into WTC 1.

``Women must not be present at my funeral or go to my grave at any later date.''

Some who remember Atta in Hamburg said the only remarkable thing about him was that he avoided alcohol and women - he wouldn't even shake a woman's hand.


------ And one can on and on with such crap.

Growing up myself in a religion, I saw women as key players in the world. In the bible, to me, they seemed to usually be the good people when it was all said and done - and the men were the idiots who kept screwing up. I know some people see the opposite in the bible, but my readings showed women as being the victims of men more than anything (Including eve, as Lucifer was seen as a male who lied to her).

And now in today's society we have so much anger and hatred at women it seems. Even women seem to have issues with women ;)

We make them out to be sexual objects - models, porn stars, baby factories etc. Not all men feel this way of course! And women are free to act as they want too, so I have no problem with them doing porn, modeling, etc.

So I thought about it some. And then I thought about Iraq. And bush. And oil.

Someone has something you want/desire and you cannot just have it when you want it. So you demonize them, and then war against them, and take it.

I liken it to my wife in her younger days. Pretty red head a lot of guys wanted. They were willing to pay her rent, send her dozens of roses each week for months, and basically do anything for her attention.

When we worked at Enron together her boss, and several other guys, all wanted her to go out with them. She declined, met me, and asked me out. When they found out she was seeing me, they all treated her poorly, including her boss. If they could not 'have' her, then what worth was she?

What is it about possessing something that makes people act like assholes? All they wanted, and she knew it, was arm candy to show off. To brag.

Me, I just wanted to deal with my sadness in life, and arm candy was the least important thing in my universe. She picked the goofy computer guy, and their ego's went to hell and they would punish her by making her do more work, yelling at her over stupid things, and not talking to her anymore.

It is a sad state of affairs for women in our world right now. No, they aren't perfect either - but you cannot start to solve a problem until you see it. And guys - there are a lot of our sex out there who have problems. I don't know the solution, but I do know I have no desire to see my little girl grow up in a world where she is seen as a piece of ass and nothing more. She is a wonderful person, with dreams and hopes.

Hopefully more people will wake up and do something.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

1. I hate to break it to you

but women provide an auxiliary role only in the history of MAN. Maybe we've read different bibles, but women don't mean shit in the eyes of the (male) lord. The problem has been around for centuries, and you're not going to solve it anytime soon.

Fortunately, women can at least be "pieces of ass" in the eyes of the Christian god. Lord only knows what the muslim douche-bag would do to American girls.

</sarcasm>

[izzie]

2. I would say it was the emotions that they bring to things and people.

It is going after what makes you feel that emotion and who wants to blame them self? Since men have most of the power in Atta world he has a good one to aim at, the weaker one who also brings on the emotions good or bad. I would say that the weaker in a society are always blamed and used by the stronger of the society to build them self up. Women have an even more special place as they are needed in all societies. Almost everyman one has a women around to feel better then. Only owning children seem to be a better ego builder. I say that as an Am. who has met many that have told me that they can do as they like with their children. After all these children belong to them. Plus women had fewer rights in a marriage and before marriage when I grew up. I had better leave this subject. I will be run off this site.

[Iris]

11. What you describe is also why so many white people want to keep black people

and other minorities down. They just have to have someone to feel like the are superior to - "Oh, well, at least I'm not a ______ (fill in the blank - woman, gay, black, immigrant)"

[hsher]

18. Yes - very sad

[izzie]

30. Yes I would say you are right. Sad things are some time truth.

--

[Iris]

36. Sad and destructive.

And I don't know what the answer to this would be. Education? Opportunities for all? Something else entirely?

[pnwmom]

3. My guess, Straight Story, and it's just a guess,

is that some men look at women and see the weakness or darkness that they despise in themselves. The men with the poorest self-images are the ones who most hate women.

Your wife and daughter are lucky that you have enough basic confidence in yourself that you can appreciate them for all that they are. Have fun raising your daughter! She's a fortunate girl.

[smirkymonkey]

5. Good point. And I would go further and say that in a world that

is creating more fear and insecurity, the weak and the dark (which by far outnumber the strong and the noble) become more actively misogynistic as they become more fearful and insecure.

I am thinking about how, in most Scandinavian countries, a high standard of living with a solid safety net seems to have created a culture where women are the most respected and valued as human beings, not posessions. Or is that cultures that treat women as human being - educate them, give them equal rights, value their voice happen to be the societies that end up with the highest standards of living?

Women's rights in impoverished, backward cultures are abysmal.

Something to think about.

[SummerGrace]

4. People who are doing something

Waitt Institute for Violence Prevention
http://waittinstitute.org/WIVP/index.html

Fatherhood Is Sacred - Winnebago Tribe
(groups in Winnebago NE & Sioux City IA)
Link to national organization:
http://www.nativeamericanfathers.org/index.html

[Orsino]

6. Religion is only an excuse.

The male of the species evolved to be a strong, tough fighter and hunter, but with a need for the female. When you're busy trying to look cool 24/7, desperate to do so, a part of you will see this need as a weakness more than as a strength. Consciously or not, your resentment will color everything you do, and you will design religions to justify it, if only to ease the cognitive dissonance.

[omega minimo]

17. No, the resentment is built into foundations of religions that eradicated The Goddess

The religions were not "designed" to "justify resentment."

The resentment is self-hatred inherent in religions founded on the massacre of what came before them.

The self-hatred is projected as blame and hatred of The Female, by those who forget their religion was founded on the eradication of The Feminine Face of God.

:crazy:

[Orsino]

20. No, I don't think that today's religions invented gynophobia...

..nor that past religions were any more capable of inventing such a thing. When it follows us into all faiths, or nearly all, we have to suspect more fundamental causes.

[omega minimo]

21. "More fundamental causes" is what my post was about!

:wow: :wtf:


omega minimo (1000+ posts)  Sat Nov-18-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. No, the resentment is built into FOUNDATIONS of religions that eradicated The Goddess
The religions were not "designed" to "justify resentment."
The resentment is self-hatred inherent in religions FOUNDED on the massacre of what came before them.
The self-hatred is projected as blame and hatred of The Female, by those who forget their religion was FOUNDED on the eradication of The Feminine Face of God.

==========

How much more "fundamental" do causes get?

The desert sky god cults wiped out the previous earth goddess cultures. There's books on this (including the Bible) if you're interested in some information to go with your opinions.

"When it follows us into all faiths, or nearly all, we have to suspect more fundamental causes."

"All faiths"? um er ................. "or nearly all....." Had to think about it didn't you? Did you think about which religions you include in "nearly all"?

Would they happen to be the ones descended from the same desert sky god cult that all claim the same holy land and are now fighting to the death as they destroy the earth?


"No, I don't think that today's religions invented gynophobia nor that past religions were any more capable of inventing such a thing."

Do some reading on this, it may interest you, especially if you are concerned about the environment. You may have some new ideas about where the mistreatment of the feminine and of the planet derived from and how they are connected.

:hi:

[Irreverend IX]

25. "The desert sky god cults wiped out the previous earth goddess cultures."

This is a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of the history of religion in Europe and the Middle East. The Chalice and the Blade is fiction, extrapolating entire cultures and philosophies out of a few bits of artwork from civilizations that left no written records. A lot of Christianity's early adopters were sophisticated urban women (kind of like neopaganism today), whereas the Roman religion was linked to patriarchy. Real religious history is more sophisticated than an epic struggle between the Light Side and the Dark Side.

[Orsino]

26. It fails Occam's Razor, too.

When we wonder why so many flavors of religion oppress women, the answer is not to invent a previous religion that "made" us do it. Like creationism, this approach simply shrugs off the question into prehistory, and is ultimately a way to avoid looking for answers.

[omega minimo]

28. Again with the "so many flavors" -- yet you avoid answering the questions in #21

sp


...and add a passive/aggressive swipe without indicating which "nearly all" religions you keep referring to or whether you have actually done any reading on the subject I raised-- or "simply shrug off the question."

Saying "the answer is not to invent a previous religion that "made" us do it" suggests that you don't know anything about the history, let alone "prehistory" of religion and the misogyny embedded within it.

What DO you know about this subject, since you are interested in the question, but none of the research?

[omega minimo]

29. The same "fiction" is proudly recorded in the Old Testament by the perpetrator/victors

This was long before the "Christianity's early adopters" in the days of "Roman religion."

OM: "The desert sky god cults wiped out the previous earth goddess cultures."

You: "This is a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of the history of religion in Europe and the Middle East."

So yes, it is an oversimplification, although not a misrepresentation. It is shorthand, which is all the energy worthwhile when communicating with DU debunkers who frequently seem certain that the various research is "fiction" "oversimplification" but never seem to have actually read any of it.


"Real religious history is more sophisticated than an epic struggle between the Light Side and the Dark Side."

Now that's an oversimplification that is unintentionally funny, too. Religion would appear to be all about the Dark and the Light. In the case of the desert sky god cults, they wrote the Bible. The victors always write history, don't they? And systematically obliterate what came before, don't they?

So you can dismiss as a "fiction" the research done with what evidence may remain as "a few bits of artwork."

There is quite a bit more to read about this than "The Chalice and the Blade" if that one doesn't suit you.

Good luck.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Goddess religions could be just as inimical to women

Among the ancient Greeks, the men were running around inventing democracy and all that, but the women were kept at home, rarely went out, and rarely learned to read and write. Only prostitutes had any kind of freedom.

Traditional Hinduism, with all its powerful goddesses, practiced child marriage and burned widows alive on their husband's funeral pyre.

By the way, I can't think of any religion, whether currently practiced or historically attested, international or tribal, that has only goddesses, no gods. There's a theory that Neolithic hunter-gatherers had only goddesses, based on ambiguous archeological evidence, but there is no way of knowing.

[smirkymonkey]

7. You make some interesting points - what is it about the need

to possess and control? I can't answer that, but it seems that it is directly related to the level of misogyny in a society. Is it any surprise that one of the hallmarks of Fascism is rampant sexism?

Is it the need in the capitalist nature to turn every thing in nature into a commodity, including women? And they depend on religion-induced sexual repression to create the overwhelming desire for sexual commodities? (instead of a more spirtual type of sexual relationship, where both men and women enter into it from pure desire, free of all the religio-psychological bullshit that inclines one toward perversion.)

Maybe that's why your wife fell for you instead of the other men - she knew on some level how they really saw her and obviously was proven right by their reaction when she began dating you. I also have the same instinct - it's the businessman type that repulses me the most, because I sense their shallowness and the fact that most of them are just looking for an acquisition and not a real human being. Personally, I'll go for the soulful, intelligent "nerdy" guy everytime.

[treestar]

8. Atta was a nutcase

How did he expect to control who goes to his grave or who attends his funeral? Insane on the face of it. But he is no more a Muslim than Jerry Falwell is a Christian.

Women and children have been possessions of men for centuries, but immense progress has been made in the last couple of centuries. The idea of owning other people (slaves) has died hard but it is starting to.

[pitohui]

12. atta was certainly a muslim and falwall is certainly a christian

atta was willing to die for his beliefs, you and i are not willing to do the same, falwell has dedicated his life to proselytizing his beliefs, you and i are sensible people who have real jobs and also the good manners to know that proselytizing is just plain rude

like it or not, the true face of religion is the face of the fundamentalist, because they are the ones following and spreading the literal word of the religion

the sooner we stop pretending that such are not "real" members of the religions that they do more to advertise than anyone -- the sooner we stop kidding ourselves


the ownership of women and children is written into the bible, it's an unfortunate part of the judeo-christian religion, it's time to stop picking and choosing and pretending that the bible is only the tiny part we can actually swallow

paul's rant and misogyny against women is in the new testament, not the old, it's time to quit kidding ourselves about christianity

organized religion is a great force for evil but until we stop lying to ourselves we are not going to do anything except facilitate its spread

[treestar]

22. They are extremists, though, and these religions have millions

of followers most of whom are normal people.

That women have been treated as property seems common throughout religions, but then, that might have been culture and the religion is an expression of the cultures.

All humans, regardless of culture, seem generally to have in common that the women and children are treated as property of the men, at least from a certain point in history (there were some early matriarchies if I remember right).

But the average Muslim man and the average Christian man are not as looney as Atta seems to be about women.

We should make a grave for him and have women swarm all over it.

[leftofthedial]

9. 'cause broads are weak and evil

:sarcasm:

thanks largely to Constantine, we live in a patriarchal culture

[porphyrian]

10. Women have dirty, dirty pillows...!

Aren't you married to one? You have to know how scary they are...

Seriously, though, it is ridiculous that these archaic attitudes towards women (or any other group singled out to be treated as second class) exist yet today, at the dawn of the 21st century. Maybe, by leading through example, we can convince all of the oppressed women to defect to our camp, forcing those men to re-evaluate their beliefs.

[Annces]

13. We are really not so far away from times when

people went to war, just for bloodlust and to conquer. We are raising up our standards, little by little. And even if you look at great social leaders, many of them had mistresses who had to disappear when they were inconvenient.

I had similar experience in a workplace. It was a job I had out of high school in a small shop in San Diego. The boss was a major Asshole. He had made advances at me, and I just laughed it off. I was pretty naive. I started seeing one of the workers there, and when the boss found out, he started being very mean and eventually fired me. He thought being the boss meant he was the most important person and could trample on others.

[Crandor]

14. Misogyny is evolutionarily advantageous

If you treat women as equals it becomes hard to convince them to bear the 10+ child families that fundies idealize. The net result is male-dominated cultures will tend to win compared to female-dominated or egalitarian cultures. It will always be an uphill battle to try to get women a socially equal standing to men, unless you sabotage the other side somehow. Personally I think there needs to be a minimum intelligence requirement in order to be allowed to have children :/

[JeffR]

15. Fear and power are what it all stems from

Fear of losing power, ceding power, sharing power, surrendering power.

[hsher]

16. Look at this - physically attractive feminist's story

This part of your wife's story happened to me:

>>When we worked at Enron together her boss, and several other guys, all wanted her to go out with them. She declined, met me, and asked me out. When they found out she was seeing me, they all treated her poorly, including her boss. If they could not 'have' her, then what worth was she?

Happens to me ALL THE TIME. And they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. In my "considered extremely physically attractive" female experience, hell hath no fury like a man scorned, either. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. When you're very good-looking to men, they expect you to go the golddigger route and use and exploit them - y'know the routine: wear something lowcut to enhance your already pop-up huge natural boobs, something tight to enhance the slim waist, a skirt to show off the gams, and then request free things, free services and money from all the guys around you. If you do this, men line up eagerly with grins and beg you to exploit them (!) - but you earn their later obsession with you, and the hatred of all the women around you. If you DON'T "use it", the women still hate you because they envy you (you should see how women's eyes scowl and rake me up and down when they walk past me at work, or on the street; it's AMAZING), and the men either come on to you and get burned, and walk away mad and set out for revenge, or they call you "unfuckable" and "a bulldyke" and still set out for revenge.

Women who envy so-called "attractive women" shouldn't envy us. Walk a mile in our shoes for awhile and see what a horror story these bodies and faces have brought us. Here I am a feminist and look like a f*cking Playboy bunny. I DEFINITELY PICKED THE WRONG BODY THIS LIFETIME AROUND. Note to self next time: come back as a man.

[bertha katzenengel]

19. Can't answer your question, but I say this in all bitterness:

It's the way of the world. It's in the history of the earth since history was written, and it'll never go away. No ideal, no religion, no philosophy, not even world peace, will ever change the fact that women are viewed as lesser than men, by women and men alike.

[VelmaD]

23. I don't know what started it...but I know one thing that perpetuates it...

Some men fear women gaining power because they KNOW what they've done to women, the insane, violent, degrading acts they themselves have perpetrated...and they're afraid that if we ever get power they might actually deserve whatever punishment we would chose to mete out to them. They themselves have behaved in brutal and inhumane ways and misused their power...and they cannot fathom that we would not do the same back to them if given the opportunity.

And for those with reading comprehension problems, go back and notice I said SOME men. Not all men. Not you personally.

In a larger sense, I think a some men may fear women gaining power, even if they've never done anything really bad to a woman, because they understand how women have been abused and held down as a group...and they fear that women might chose to retaliate against men as a group as well.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. crazy as this sounds, and likely is-

I believe the hatred/de-valuation of women stems from the reality that it is from a WOMANS body, that all humans originate.

It is a 'given' that creating life requires both male and female contributions, but only females carry life within them- and it is primarily women who nurture infants and toddlers (though that in no way negates nurturing fathers).

Because women are so essential in the survival of the 'species'- there is a built in "need"- and maybe, sub-conscious envy/jealousy that breeds resentment, fear and the need to de-value, minimize the place we women have in the scheme of 'life'- While men often have far more physical power than women, intellect and creativity are pretty evenly distributed between the two sexes.

But as we see, over and over again, 'nature' doesn't factor in 'fairness'- or 'tolerance' or 'equality'- It does usually boil down to brute force even today- And when the powerful abuse their power it often travels right down the line-
Dad gets chewed out at work by someone with more 'power' than him, so he comes home and dumps on his spouse, who dumps on the child, who dumps on the dog, who dumps on the cat, who hisses, and slinks off not wanting to waste her time on the foolishness of it all-


Judeo Christian religion isn't very kind to women in my experience and study- Women are equal to and sometimes less valued than livestock- Good for breeding, and working- and scapegoating- It was WOMAN- remember that got us thrown out of eden- How many women apostles were there? Where is God's wife? The bible paints 'God' as masculine ONLY- but if 'we' are made in 'his' image, does God not have a 'female' side?

I encourage you to look up a Christian Mystic called "Julian of Norwich"-

"She, spoke at length about the 'mother heart of God'- and her message is a message of comfort and hope, despite the situation-

"All will be well, all will be well, all manner of things will be well"-

life on earth isn't fair, easy, or comfortable- sometimes it is hell-

Maybe that's what heaven is for-

blu
(wish this world weary carrot-top had believed she was worthy of someone such as you when it was time to choose- Life teaches us all, sometimes the lessons are incredibly difficult to deal with)

IMPORTANT NOTE- this is my own personal opinion, and is not meant as a 'dis' on MEN- There are many wonderful men in this world- and some women I'd like to distance myself from, we're all individuals, and should be seen as such.

[Judi Lynn]

27. I think a lot of men are terrified of being expected to stop playing

ugly games, and start being honest.

That would clear up EVERYTHING.

Stop trying to manipulate others. Stop trying to lie to others. Stop trying to deceive.

It's a question of maturity. When people are forthright, and on the level, they don't seem to have these problems fearing and hating women, or other men. Their lives flow more smoothly, they appear calmer, stronger, and of course, better than the clowns.

I can't see anything less than that worthwhile enough to care about.

[paganlib]

31. I think some men are scared of women's power........

and have been throughout recorded history. A lot of time and energy has been invested into keeping women unaware of their innate strength, wholeness, etc. One just has to look at how truly long it took to convince ancient people to the idea of a male "sky god". And of course I know that men have a feminine part in them as well, so maybe this all has been an attempt to suppress, deny, forget what a glorious, wonderful, mysterious power we all have inside - women and men!

[omega minimo]

34. !

[lukasahero]

38. Weclome to DU!

Loved your post. :hi:

[paganlib]

32. I just started reading some of your poems.......

and they are awesome!!! I love poetry.

[The Straight Story]

33. Thank You!

I have been busy today and finally checking in. Cooking a ham, scalloped potatoes, and stuffing. MMMMM :)

[SoCalDem]

35. Women have "supernatural" powers.. We create life.. It's kind of intimidating to some men..