So I bought a new dishwasher today

[OffWithTheirHeads]

Blew close to a grand. Didn't think much of it except that Thanksgiving is coming and I need a new dishwasher as my old one is broken.. After coming home and unloading the dishwasher, I didn't think anything of it until I went out for a smoke. Some guy was out there, eyeballing my truck. I asked him what he wanted and he told me, in very poor English, that, if I would be kind enough, he would like the box that my dishwasher came in for a house. O.K., so I blow close to a grand on a machine to washes my dishes and someone wants the box that it came in to live in. Something is fundamentally wrong with this equation.

Having lived in downtown San Jose for over 10 years, I am used to being hit on for cigarettes and spare change about 15 times a day. My general attitude is, "Fuck you, get a job, thats how I afford my habits. This guy was different. I am reasonably sure that he was not native to this country. That would make him illegal. Ya know what? I don't give a fuck what this guy's "legal status" was. The fact that he valued the box that my dishwasher came in as much as I valued the dishwasher speaks volumes.

I gave him the box. I then asked him to wait, momentito", and asked my wife to find a blanket we didn't need which I gave to him. I then asked my wife to look for money we had laying around. She found a $20 and we gave it to him.

Then, I, a 56 year old, tough as nails, construction worker, sat down and cried.

God, what a pathetic, heartless bunch we have become.

[LaurenG]

1. ...

:hug: :cry:

[Snotcicles]

96. I think there's still some heart left in ya. n/t

[liberaldemocrat7]

175. Very good. You have done well !!

and thank you for telling us.

[madokie]

2. Peace

I am so tired of all for me none for you type attitudes. we're all in this together

[Greyhound]

55. The problem is that we are not "in it together" and we don't want to be

Before the shrubCo. economy I was doing pretty well and I was the primary source of support for four guys in front of the 7-11 on Hollywood & Bronson (actually 1 block east but I've forgotten the name) for over three years, it was a lesson that we all should bear. Of course, I got to know these guys as well as one person can know another in such circumstances, and wanted to help them out. I started out with the Christian guys in the van (can't remember the name of the organization, but angels was in it) that cruise Hollywood and offer help to them. I found they were overwhelmed, over-extended, and not really making any difference beyond getting them through another day, plus they just could not resist the incessant proselytizing. Apparently they are unaware of what a turn-off this is to many people, but their hearts were in the right place.

Next I went to the LA city council, where my representative Henry Waxman, met with me and gave me an education in the futility of pursuing that avenue. The idiocy of their turf wars is, in my view, the primary reason LA is such a mess. Henry was a tireless advocate for the Homeless, but was up against a collection of the most infuriating, short-sighted, uncaring idiots it has ever been my misfortune to encounter in a single room. No help there.

Before this gets any longer, I'll sum up this part by saying that the bottom line is there is no help available because there is no will to do anything about it. The Homeless are a political football, and once the elections are over nobody gives a shit about them, I will go so far as to claim that there are more than a couple of scumbags that want to ensure they don't get any help because they are so useful in a campaign.

So after running around and around for 3 or 4 months I decided that I could do more on my own, than any of the organizations that are supposed to be addressing this, and I think this is the only solution that we have at this time.

I'm not an authority by any means, but what I've learned and what I'm told, is that the best things we can do right now are;

(much of the following is not recommended until you've developed some form of relationship and trust, don't forget that many homeless are mentally ill and/or criminal, so keep a distance until you can make a reasonable judgment)
a. Talk to them. Hundreds of people walking by and pretending they don't exist is horribly cruel and if you claim some brand of spirituality it is a stain on you when you do this.

b. Give them a couple of bucks and a cigarette and hold the judgments. You haven't lived their lives, you don't know what brought them to this place and, nor is it not your job to ascertain their worthiness. Take a glance at your waistline, do you really need that double-double, fries, and a shake? The $5 you give them can make a huge difference in their life today and the feeling you get will be far more satisfying than the meal you can afford to miss.

c. Help them with your own knowledge and resources. Do you have, or know of, a place where they can take a shower? Keep some clothes, blankets, any of the detritus of consumerism that fills our lives, in the trunk and create an impromptu christmas year-round. Do you, or do any of your friends have a long honey-do list that never seems to get done? Let them do it, or better yet, give them the opportunity to help you do it. Do you, or does anyone you know, have a new dishwasher or refrigerator? That old sleeping bag that has been gathering dust in the back of the closet for 6 years could be put to good use, and give it directly many of the organizations are more concerned with their own existence than the help they provide, if you personally hand it to someone, you know that it will be beneficial.

Got more ideas? Think I'm nuts? Let us know.

[LuckyLib]

93. "Hold the judgments" is the most important point you made.

I can't tell you the number of liberal friends who claim all offers of money to the homeless go to drugs and alcohol. And, if they do? The giving is at your end, pal. Do so with a good heart, assume the best, and move on.

[Greyhound]

95. Exactly, give because it is right and you can. Keep your opinions about

them and their decisions to yourself.

[The Wizard]

163. What happened to

all those abandoned trailers from Katrina relief that were never used?

[Jeanette in FL]

3. Wow

Can't think of anything to say. I'll just cry with you.

[democrank]

4. How does that old saying go?

Something like...."I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet."

Bless you.

[cornermouse]

5. The real state of the union.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/07/national/main2072368.shtml

Aging Homeless Population Booming
In New Study, Nearly One-Third Of Homeless Population Over 50

So where does he go, this aging veteran, now that his legs and kidneys don't work and everything he owns fits inside the pair of pajama pants tied to his wheelchair?

John Knight, 60, spends his days wheeling to dialysis treatments, soup kitchens and the freeway ramp where he begs for change. A hospital has become his primary residence, but he sometimes scours the city for "a hole to climb into before it gets dark."

"I have one thing on my mind — that's to eat, sleep and stay out of the way," said Knight, a former manual laborer who has been homeless for nine years.

Older men like Knight once made up a comparatively small share of the nation's homeless. But researchers say seniors now represent its fastest-growing segment, byproduct of an aging Baby Boom generation...

[blm]

51. short but true - the real state of the union.

,

[1932]

6. He didn't value that box as much as you valued your dishwasher.

He valued it as much as you value your house.

What a fucked up world we live in. So much wealth at the top and so much misery at the bottom. And some of us are in between and we need something like this to remind us of where our heart and allegiance should be.

Thank you for sharing that story.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. youre right! How fucked up is that!

[Vinca]

8. What a heartbreaking story. We have to do better for these people. nt

[xchrom]

9. richest. nation. on. earth.

but we'd rather get hard-ons listening to conservatives blather about losers sucking the system dry.

i repeat -- richest. nation. on. earth.

[jgraz]

20. Sad thing about that..

is for many people, being the Richest Nation On Earth is an end in an of itself. That's the validation they use for all the shit we do as a society -- i.e., "Hey, if Sweden's so great, how come they're not the Richest Nation On Earth?"

The irony is that both a homeless guy *and* a 51-year-old construction worker would likely be financially better off in any number of more enlightened societies.

[xchrom]

22. america has an unreasoning fear for real collective help

for the poor.

it's an obsession of theirs -- so much so that people who should be in favor of it -- walk on egg shells around the idea.

but new orleans and it's on going tragedy is what you gt when you embrace that fear.

[davekriss]

113. We are not the richest nation on earth

Depending on the list, on a per capita GDP basis we range from fourth to seventh on the list (depending on which list you look at). Not that your point isn't valid (we are able and therefore should and MUST do more to ensure equality and justice for all), but I take this opportunity to shoot down the (mostly rightwing) meme that we are "richest on earth". I can't tell you how many times I had to beat down the freeper argument that our lofty GDP justifies every position the Republithugs take. On a per person basis, we trail several other nations.

Further, we show more concentration of wealth, and less class mobility, than any of our peer nations. So not only do we lose in terms of per capita GDP, the bottom 80% -- and especially the bottom 40% -- of our citizens are less well off than the same segments in our peer nations. Yet that is not the "common sense" belief of the vast majority of us. Such is the success of our indoctrinating institutions (especially notable, the brainwashing success of our near-monopolized major media).

[YankeyMCC]

10. Not quite as heartless bunch as that

Because we still have people like you among us so there is still hope.

Thank you for sharing this story. I can not think of a more appropriate story to keep in mind this thanksgiving.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. You're a good man, my friend.

Crying is sometimes the only thing we can do. I find it manly and comforting and compassionate and cleansing.

It is, indeed, a fucked up world in which we find ourselves. I'm certain that man feels some modicum of hope and compassion for that simple act of giving him permission to take what was about to become your castoff.

Think about that, any 'I got mine, so fuck you' types that may chance upon this post. The man who took the cast off cardboard box ***asked permission***.

What an inherently evil man he must be. :sarcasm:

[Saturday]

12. And in the meantime.....

We are spending $8 billion a month in Iraq.

[Stardust]

158. or...$11 million AN HOUR!!!!!

:grr: :banghead:

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Yes, but we can't give that man a fish, because Bush's policy

requires that we give all the fish to people who can not only catch their own fish, but who own their own fisheries.

[William769]

14. That was a wonderful thing you did.

Don't beat yourself up to bad. At least you did do something. I do know some people that wouldn't have even given him the box.

[blogslut]

15. I'll cry with you

n/t

[acmejack]

16. What a story.

Thank you for sharing it with us. I have to tell you it brought a tear to my eye as well.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

17. Another K, another R. Thanks for the humanity in your post.

We all need that perspective.

:cry: MKJ

[lonestarnot]

18. We have become the society that puts people in a box.

Your experience and description of it is enlightening to those who don't get it. Thanks for sharing. :toast:

[msedano]

19. and another thing...

i'm sure the undocumented worker was happy to get the cardboard. if anyone ever has another opportunity like this, add a few plastic garbage bags to drape over the top and make the residence a bit more waterproof, and to serve as a raincoat. you cut holes for arms and head and presto! waterproof poncho.

thanks for helping out the brother.

mvs

http://labloga.blogspot.com/2006/11/veterans-day-elegy.html

edit: recommended.

[carlydenise]

21. Thanks for that story, it really makes one think

how much we take for granted. I look at these spoiled people who stood in line for 3 days for a PS3 and even more spoiled people who bought one on ebay for 3,000.00......3,000 would have been like 10 million to that poor man.
Carly

[StraightDope]

24. I have to work for 3 months for $3,000.

That's a fucking fortune to ME. That's almost a year's worth of rent. My bank account has exactly $250.51. I know this, because after I pay rent for December, one of my bills is going to have to not get paid; I suppose the internet bill. So all you fellow DUers probably won't see this agitator over the holiday season. The $200+ winter gas bills don't help the situation any, as I'm sure you can imagine. I haven't been to a doctor in six years, because I have no insurance. If I hadn't been forethinking enough to buy Christmas gifts throughout the year, one at a time when I could afford them, none of my friends or family would be getting anything from me. My one luxury is the internet, but if Comcast buys Adelphia out, I won't be able to afford the extra $20 / month. I don't even have a phone; no cell phone, no land line. Luckily for me, one of the few pay phones left in my city is right down the block from me.

I am one of the working poor, yet I know that compared to many, I live in the lap of luxury.

And yet some jerk-off has $3000 to drop on a fucking toy? THAT is what is wrong with America.

[kineneb]

31. peace to you

and greetings from a fellow dweller at the bottom. We live on Hubby's SSDI- $1199 for the two of us; he has Medicare and MediCal. We manage, but only with the help of family and friends. Our cable modem is our one splurge- that which connects us with the outside world. We must have a phone and cell phones because of Hubby's health issues: diabetes, dialysis and heart disease.

You might want to check with your local county social services. There may be a medical program in your state for low-income adults. There is one in California's rural counties called CMSP, for which I qualify. You also may be able to get food assistance from local groups/churches or free stuff from the USDA.

Since we are stuck at this income level for the duration of Hubby's life, I am learning the ropes of living near the poverty level (the hard way).

Take care.

:hug:

[StraightDope]

35. Luckily, I have enough to eat.

I've yet to have to worry about where my next meal is coming from, even if that meal consists of ramen noodles or a can of tuna.

As far as community medical coverage, what good would it do? I'm in good health, and even if I found out that there was something seriously wrong with me, I'd never be able to afford a surgery or other medical procedure, not to mention that I'd never be able to miss that much work as a result.

Oh, how wonderful it would be if minimum wage were raised. My $6/hr would go a lot farther if it were $7/hr. :)

In any case, I'll be OK. I worry more about the poor souls who don't have a roof over their heads, or those with mouths to feed other than their own.

[1932]

45. If you mean the washing machine is toy...

...I'm not sure it is. If you work construction and your time is worth 20 or 30 bucks an hour, your time is much better spent working construction rather than hand washing all your clothes. It's not a toy. It's a tool and an investment which allows you to allocate your time in way that ensures you're doing the things that are worth the most to society (the things that you do that society is willing to pay the most for you to do). If you can afford the $3000, you'd be crazy not to own a washing machine. Of course, if the time the machine saves isn't worth it for a variety of reasons, then it wouldn't be worth the investment. Either way, it isn't a toy.

[StraightDope]

50. No, dude, the $3000 is for the Playstation 3 on Ebay...

Which by any reasonable definition, IS a toy. A dishwasher is a wondeful time saver, especially for those like me who HATE washing dishes. But $3000 for a video game? That's just fucking stupid.

[The Deacon]

202. My Son Saw A Story In the Newspaper About People Waiting In Line

To buy a PS3 for $500.00 and sell it on eBay for $3000.00 He said: "That's stupid - why don't they just leave the PS3s for people who want to play them?"
I think my wife may be teaching him morality behind my back.

[carlydenise]

204. PS3 evils

My kid didn't want a PS3, but did want a wii which came out last night. I stood in line for 30 minutes at walmart (store didn't open until noon, blue law). It was nothing like the riot, frenzied free for all a few days ago, we were 17 in line with 20 units in the store, youth was about 17 years old (I was the only adult LOL)...single file line to the service desk, the lady manager was very strict about no riot in her store. I thought to myself, o.k. the average purchase was 350.00 x 20, alot of dough there, does walmart give proceeds to homeless shelters and that sort of thing? I would have loved to see some of that money my kid just dropped at wally world to be put to something worthwhile, instead of going in corporate american pockets.

[KansDem]

23. Here's to you, tmfun

Thanks for the story...:hi:...most of the problems I woke up with this morning have disappeared.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

85. Nothing like a good Montecristo!

Thanks.

[bobbolink]

25. So, what can we homeless people do, right here on DU, to bring action?

I"m asking... I know everyone wants to blame the RW, and that's true, but I see just as much inaction from the "progressives".

So, what can I say, what can I do to get people here, on DU, to start taking action to see that there is housing for those of us without?

I worked on Kucinich's campaign, and nothing I said or did got their attention as far as poverty issues were concerned.

Right here on DU, last year during the budget debates, the few of us who were interested in poverty couldn't get the rest of DU to take it seriously, and call and write to get the cuts in Medicaid taken out.

What can I do?

I appreciate that it touched you so much that you cried. I appreciate that, as I get very little concern about my own situation. Yet, I'm needing to move people beyond tears, to be willing to work to see that there is low-income housing established everywhere. I haven't been able to move people in that direction. What can I do to make that happen?

Please, I'd really like to know.

I don't even have a box.

[calimary]

33. I'd say, for the immediate here and now (well, actually, starting Monday)

to start storming the phone lines of our reelected incumbents. The new folks won't get in til January. I'd start pressing them to put the poverty/homelessness issue on the front burner ASAP. NOW. YESTERDAY. I think it might carry a bit more weight at the moment simply because the election is still fresh enough in people's minds - how The People Spoke - in tidal waves too large to hold back, like a giant Katrina bearing down unstoppably on the levees. We've just demonstrated our power and our clout, and how our views have muscle and teeth behind them. Maybe in the same breath as we nag about ending the war or building the case for IMPEACHMENT, we add this one in, too, so it begins to take on a higher priority.

File it in the "If they think you don't care, THEY WON'T, EITHER!!!" file. We've been talking about the drumbeat for several years here, as we helped, as activists, to build enough momentum and enough consciousness-raising and enough truth-telling that we actually slew more than a few Goliaths a couple of weeks ago. Building the drumbeat against the war, against the wrong-wing agenda at large, against bush, against the republi-CONS. It's actually had an impact, and you better believe we were part of it. If we can do that, we can do this.

[bobbolink]

36. I've called and called and called and called... my one, lone voice doesn't carry

Will anyone else join me?

[Wheezy]

125. more

join you than you know. You are not alone.

Some of us just don't post about it. But we're fighting for you.
I promise.

[bobbolink]

201. Thanks.

Please help kick those threads, then, ok?

Would be mucho appreciated! :hi:

[nofurylike]

126. your voice is not "lone," but i know it can feel that way. it is an

overwhelming danger for so many - o! goddess! billions!! - out there! including, i see, you!

many many work without pause on ending poverty. it is that widespread, all over this world.

please keep on what you are doing, and i will too, and so many others will!!

meanwhile, you are there in the immediate dangers, it seems...
:hug:


peace and solidarity!

[bobbolink]

190. I'm certainly the lone voice where I am, which makes me a lightening rod

for all the spleen that people want to vent.

It hurts.

As an Indian woman said to me after a campaign we were both involved with, "Bobbolink, you can't be the only one fighting for an issue. Take it from and Indian-- we know all about that."

Thanks for joining with me--I appreciate that so much!

:hug: back atcha!

[nofurylike]

228. "It hurts." yes. and i have seen it is like that, when you embody

what shames people - well, at least gets under the skin of any who care at all but do not, or can not, act.

please keep on. your strength in adversity is inspirational!

yes, with you.

:hug:

peace and solidarity, always!

[Stardust]

156. I'll call, too. Where do I start? What do I say?

[bobbolink]

194. Thanks for asking! Here's some ideas....

First off, just recently, the Dems have announced that they are planning to roll back the tax cuts for the rich, and give the money TO THE MIDDLE CLASS! What??? We poor folk just suffered huge cuts to Medicaid and to housing, but.... it's the middle class who will benefit from getting that money back????

When that was posted on DU, I was the only one who questioned that--please join me in speaking up about that, and please call your reps to say that is NOT OK with you.

Toll-free Capitol Hill Switchboard 1-888-355-3588

ask for any representative or Senator, and leave your message.

Thank you for doing that!

Also, HUD, as of 2004, had been cut 63% in 25 years. That left a huge shortage of low-income housing, all that's available to those too old to work or who are on disability. Please start speaking up, as this is becoming more and more a cause of homelessness, and demand that housing be restored for those of us who can't afford rents.

Thank you for that!

The thing I had in mind when I first posted this was the cuts in the budget last year, and how Sapphire Blue posted over and over, BEGGING people to call. There were very few replies, and she had to keep kicking the threads. That just tore me up, and made me feel like it is all hopeless. That vote was lost by TWO representative and ONE senator. If there had been more action from DU, possibly those cuts could have been averted! It just wasn't important.

Those are the kinds of things I'd appreciate help with. The budget may be coming up again, so keep a look out.

And, again, Thanks!!

[calimary]

185. Yep. Already started, myself, several days ago.

What I like to say to those who don't represent me (both the enemy camp and good guys in other states and districts than mine):

"Hi. I care enough about this to call ALL THE WAY FROM CALIFORNIA."

Sometimes I also throw in (AFTER saying the statement above) "I don't live in (state or district) but I have lots of family in (same state or district) so I kind of feel as though he/she represents me also. Obviously, I use this remark when calling senators and congresspeople in states/districts where I do indeed have relatives.

Guys, you need to know that your comments MUST be given as much punch and relevancy as possible to be taken seriously. They always give more points to "their own." If you can position yourself as - well - let's say "their own, once removed" - then they're apt to listen a little more closely (especially if they realize, or YOU manage to imply, that you and your relatives talk politics all the time and you've influenced their thinking).

I had one experience calling Susan Collins of Maine. The staffer who took my call was surly as can be, even when I applied my caveats as above. He almost literally spat at me into the phone "WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE STATE OF MAINE????!!!!?!?!" In that case, you have to maneuver to correct that obnoxious crap. In this case, I'd called about a "universal" concern: the war in Iraq, that DOES INDEED affect the ENTIRE country, including the people of the state of Maine. The issue of poverty, homelessness, hunger, civil rights, ALL THESE are "universals" that cross state lines, party lines, philosophical/religious/gender/racial/age etc. lines. They are of equal interest and impact - NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE, NO MATTER WHAT STATE OR CITY OR DISTRICT IT IS.

Just a tip or so. If/when you do your own version of this, and start rattling cages, you may find yourself with one of those surly "sore losermans" on the other end of the phone. Just keep in mind that some of these are not highly evolved. There will be others who are circumspect, maybe closeted moderates who hated seeing the lurch their party made toward the wrong and how they were manhandled and beaten into submission by closed-minded party goons (yes, these do exist, too, and more of them may start feeling, and acting, liberated as a result of the election results). These may be polite and receptive. There will be those who are just schmucks and feel pissed that their sense of power-entitlement has been violated. FUCK 'em. Move on and call somebody else and register your view with someone better. Or call a Dem. They'll be more receptive, just straight off the starting block.

Just remember this: "If they think you don't care, THEY WON'T, EITHER!!!" And they ALL just saw clear and unrefutable and convincing evidence on November 7th that a whole shitload of us DO care, which means they better start caring, too. THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. AND THIS TIME, WE HAD MORE OF 'EM THAN THE BAD GUYS DID. AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT. So if we DON'T seize this opportunity to press our case, we deserve what (little) we get. And it'll be our own damned fault. For those "sore losermans" who sound as though they don't WANT to see or accept this, it might also help to offer them a gentle reminder of who won on November 7th, AND WHO DIDN'T; who now owns the incoming MAJORITY and who's been pushed off to the kiddie table.

In fact, that will be the nature of my own call, tomorrow morning, to NOT-my senator, mitch mcconnell, who has the gall to try to throw his weight around and tell our people how they're supposed to vote and behave regarding bush's next group of wretchedly awful judicial nominees. Um... mitch, if you'll recall November 7th, YOU'RE NOT IN ANY POSITION TO CALL THE SHOTS OR ORDER ANYBODY AROUND ANYMORE. KnowwhatImean? I plan to weigh in with his office and serve him notice that he does NOT have ANY right to tell MY people what to do. I think he's clinging to a vague sense of denial, not wanting to face the fate that WE THE PEOPLE handed him and his party, because WE THE PEOPLE didn't like what he and his party were doing to this country. I intend, PERHAPS gently (if I'm in a generous mood) to remind his people of that. They need to go over to the corner, sit down, and SHUT UP. They lost their authority to order ANYBODY around on November 7th.

Besides - they never hesitated to jam September 11th down OUR throats. I think we should return the favor with November 7th.

[kineneb]

38. no solutions from me, sorry

but I do understand (see post #31). We are not homeless, but we surely could have been.

As it is, I have no hopes of ever returning to being "middle class." In America, once you or someone in your family looses their health, you are screwed, and condemned to poverty for the rest of your existence. We are the first generation, as I see it, who will be worse off than our parents, with no hope of improvement. In fact, my Mom is helping us financially, otherwise, we would be visiting the food pantry a lot. The "American Dream" is just that- a dream.

In an ideal America, there would be care and interest in improving the lot of the poor and homeless. But the country has sold its soul to commercialism, and having a large population of poor people allows the Corps. to put pressure on the working poor to accept their lot and shut up (otherwise, they could easily be replaced). Also, until we purge ourselves of the inherent Calvinist leanings in American society, nothing will happen to really change the attitude toward poverty here.

Sorry if I sound bummed. I am.

kineneb

[bobbolink]

44. I hear ya--I'm bummed, too. I've resigned myself to the fact that I may very well

not make it through this.

Does that matter?

Not highly likely.

Death doesn't even bother "liberals" anymore.

It's kinda hard when it's you who has to be removed from the planet. And knowing that it won't matter.

[kineneb]

53. good luck to you

I hope something good will happen for you.

As for us, I just hope the greedheads don't decide pull the medical plug(literally) on Hubby- the dialysis machine is now keeping him alive, after he was turned down for a transplant. If the funding were pulled to his medical services, he would die a slow, painful death from lack of kidney function.

I keep thinking about him and all the other fragile poor people who's existence is dependant on Medicare/Medicaid.

on edit: I can't provide you with a box, but there are several sheds here...

...my personal project is helping a disabled friend who may become homeless if her rent goes up. She can't use her hands or arms much due to permanent nerve damage.

[bobbolink]

54. Tell him I'm thinking of him, would you?

*NOBODY* should have to live like that in this country!

Yet, we couldn't get people on DU to write and call about the budget cuts to Medicaid last year!!

What does it take??

out of time at the library... take care! :hug:

[file83]

86. Are you saying you're homeless? n/t

[bobbolink]

87. YES.

[bobbolink]

191. So, it was just an idle question? No concern, no compassion?

PPpffffftttt....

[hiaasenrocks]

230. Since you brought it up, may I ask how a homeless person

gets on the Internet and also affords to donate to websites? I'm not criticizing. Just curious. Maybe you go to a library or someone's house for access. I don't know. But what about the donation?

[Kali]

255. There is a lot of generosity here.

Perhaps someone else donated. Or perhaps the poster feels DU is worth some small part of their resources.

[inthebrain]

101. I'm a liberal

and I take this stuff seriously. Unless the left does what is necasary and takes the people who scapegoat the poor to task, these right wing lunatics will continure to run all over us.

Poverty and the lack of attention paid to solving the problem, is central to all our problems politicaly, domesticly and foreign policy wise. There is an attitude of scapegoating that is going on that needs to be addressed. It's gone on for thirty years now starting with drug addicts, welfare mothers and now immigrants.

[bobbolink]

189. Scapegoating is it. Even with "liberals", as you've seen from this thread.

Someone mentioned to me tha tone of the problems is the desensitization that went on in the 80's, and that's something else that needs to be combatted. Clearly, "the left" has also lost sensitivity to us poor folk.

Someone else said that all decisions should be made with poor folk in mind--sorta like environmental issues. I really like that!! Think what a difference that would make, if we Dems would start thinking that way!

Thanks for your reply! :hi:

[me b zola]

69. Check your mail

:)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

103. The US is in dire need of affordable housing

Since they insist on setting the minimum wage to an unlivable level, it should be mandatory that each community have -X- amount of housing that's affordable on a minimum wage budget. The number can be decided on a basis of how many people earn wages under poverty levels in the community. And that doesn't even begin to take into account all the people who are homeless due to health issues which leave them unable to work.

I worked on a project last year to bring affordable low income housing to my town. You would have thought I was trying to put a strip bar next to a baptist church by the way the public reacted. The denial over the fact that all we were trying to do was provide housing for members living in our community who don't earn enough to pay current rent prices, was simply amazing. The people who show up to meetings to complain about such a proposal were blind to the number of people who are currently living in their vehicles or in substandard accommodations, right here in their home town. And they didn't want to hear a word about it, either.

When they declared the war on poverty, if what they really meant was a war on the poor, then "mission accomplished."

[bobbolink]

198. Agree completely, with one caveat-- "Affordable housing" is now taken to mean

middleclass-- in the $100,000 to $200,000 range.

For someone on disability getting $600 a month, that is laughable.

LOW-INCOME is the only term that gets through to people anymore.

But, enough of that... as you say, "that doesn't even begin to take into account all the people who are homeless due to health issues which leave them unable to work." !!! Or someone who is 75, or someone who has been in a horrible wreck and is now brain-injured, etc etc etc.

Edwards has done us a grave disservice to focus exclusively on "the working poor". What are the rest of us, chopped liver?? I have tried writing to him and Elizabeth on this, but get no reply. Maybe if a bunch of folks wrote to them...?

Thank you for all your efforts in your own area!! I wish you were here to work with me on this area! I'm so worn out from speaking alone on this!

Thanks... your words mean a lot to me! :hi: :pals: :hi:

[liberaldemocrat7]

174. Bobolink, I have said the following for over 8 years now.

If you want to force the Republican party to do anything begin an organized consumer boycott against their contributors. The Republicans mainly only react to loss of money.

They lost elections but they still have the veto and the filibuster. An organized boycott of Senator Mitch McConnell's campaign contributors will go a long way into preventing the GOP from using the veto and the filibuster. I have even made a bumper sticker of that message.

[bobbolink]

200. I'm not talking about the RW republicans... I'm talking about "liberals"

right here on DU.

poverty is not an important issue right here on DU!! *THAT'S* what needs to change.

[ArmchairMeme]

26. Gratitude

If we look we can find something to enhance our gratitude each day.

I believe when we feel better about ourselves we are in a place where opportunities to give will appear to us.

Thanks

[Maestro]

27. Very compassionate and humanistic

of you. We need more of this thinking around.

[Irishonly]

28. I Shed A Few Tears

while reading your post.

[calimary]

29. The pathetic heartless bunch doesn't include you.

VERY sad story, and another testament to why we should be focusing SO MUCH MORE VIGOROUSLY - as a NATION - on poverty and homelessness. We HAVE to do this. We just do.

And what's sad, and illuminating about this, is how one can infer from your story that you thought what you did to help this gentleman was relatively minimal. And yet it probably made his day. To you it was a mere box. To him it was shelter. The poor ask for so little. The need is so great and they ask for so little.

Thank you for having such compassion and kindness - and for sharing this story. We all need to hear stories like this one to be reminded of how big the problem is, and to take care of one another.

:hug:

[cui bono]

30. Well he won't have to live in that box for long...

pretty soon he can live in a Halliburton detention camp.

It's amazing how little it takes to make a big difference to someone. Shows how bad off some people are. I used to save all my cans and bottles to give to this homeless guy who would come up and down our street. I hadn't seen him in a while and I heard someone going by with a shopping cart so I looked out. I saw an old man, probably in his 70s going through the recycling bins. So I grabbed up my 3 large garbage bags full and took them out to him and his face just lit up like it was Christmas morning. I probaly gave him 2-3 days worth of findings and he was so appreciative.

[petgoat]

37. My cousin lives in Chicago. There the practice is to put the

aluminum cans in a separate plastic bag and hang the bag by
its handles from the lugs on the outside of the dumpster,
so the cans are easily identified and removed without diving
through the trash.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. Wow...

:-(

[babylonsister]

34. Thanks for your eye-opening post, tmfun. Some of us are

beyond spoiled; next time I see someone in need, I won't be quick to judge, but hopefully try to do something to help.
And you proved you are not heartless or pathetic. You've also taught a lesson to all of us.

[petgoat]

39. One caveat. There are people who love drugs so much that

if forced to choose between free lodging and drugs, they'll take the drugs.
A lot of people live on monthly checks. The first week of the month they
have all the drugs they want. By the last week of the month they haven't
eaten in a week.

[kineneb]

42. and often the drugs

are used to numb the pain of their existence. May are crazy and are self-medicating. I know, I could have been one of them.

Don't condemn a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins.

[petgoat]

57. crazy and self-medicating

Oh sure. I've read that a lot of alcoholics are made when mannic depressives
find they can even out their mood swings with alcohol.

And surely for people who sometimes find comprehending reality difficult, or
who suffer from frightening or emotionally disturbing hallucinations, the
predictable effects of drugs provide some comforting level of control of
their internal environment.

I'm not condemning anybody. Some junkies are the smartest, most perceptive
people you'll ever meet. And some are, in their own way, highly moral.

I'm just pointing out that even in a world with free shelter, free food, free
clothes, and free showers there will be some people who won't want any of it
if it means giving up the drugs.

I frequently eat at a soup kitchen in a major city. The junkies sitting on
the curb won't even cross the street to get a free meal.

The drugs are a great evil quite separate from economic disparities. Illegal
drugs are worth $500 billion dollars a year. According to Mike Ruppert, these
cash flows (which could not be laundered without the cooperation of international
banks and governments) are essential to the functioning of the economy.

[TahitiNut]

62. Are people addicted to drugs less deserving of food and shelter?

I've never really understood the calculus. Lot's of people pay more to care for their dog than it'd take to ensure that human beings didn't go hungry and homeless. The 'cost' of drugs is 95% propped up by a 'legal system' that protects the pharmaceutical industry - an industry that produces multiples of the volume actually prescribed. Those addicted have enriched many 'respectable' people living quite comfortably - for what? I'm quite leery when those who're the victims of exploitation in our economy are blamed for being exploited. Makes no sense to me.

[petgoat]

74. Certainly it's occurred to me that one solution to the addiction

problem would be to simply set up camps where people could get
free drugs, housing, medical supervision, and food.

Since I would hate to see my daughter or ex-girlfriend embrace
that life, it seems kind of hypocritical to advocate it for
other people's daughters and girlfriends.

Most towns have vacant industrial properties that could easily
be converted to dormitory-style shelter. In a true free-market
economy it would be possible to live in a place like that for
$100 a month. The powers-that-be don't allow people to live
that way because they're opposed to freedom.

[petgoat]

79. " less deserving of food and shelter?"

Put it this way:

What would you do if your teenaged daughter dropped out of school,
started staying up all night doing not much of anything with a bunch
of ruffians, started leaving burned spoons in the sink, gave up her
steady boyfriend and started receiving a whole lot of strange men
for short visits to her bed?

Would you graciously continue to provide her with room and board,
or would you say that if she wanted to live like that she'd have to
find a way to pay for it herself?

[Land Shark]

131. translating petgoat: Before you feel compassion here, consider it mighta been drugs...

pure speculation in the service of preventing a heartfelt compassionate response

[petgoat]

171. Pure speculation based on experience being homeless

and experience knowing drug addicts intimately.

Thanks for your voting integrity litigation, Land Shark! I'd been
following your Snohomish County work from the start. I always said
I'd rather be homeless than go to law school, and I got my wish. It's
only lately that lawyers like you make me wish I'd done different.

But your post betrays a focus on your own "feelgood" response. We all
want to pass out $20 bills Thanksgiving week. Some of the homeless,
all that money at once just might kill them.

[bobbolink]

91. Thanks for being a voice of reason.

I'm so very sick of those kinds of comments that I just replied with sarcasm.

It hits me personally, and I wish some of these people could "walk in the shoes" and feel how their words affect them.

Thanks! :toast:

[Stardust]

161. I was so enjoying this thread and its lack of judgemental comments, then

here it comes: the same old declaration that many homeless people are drug addicts that prefer their freedom to the constraints of the shelters, will spend every dime you give them to score, blah, blah, blah. That's the argument that bolsters most of us to walk right by that destitute man or woman (and even kids), soothing our consciences that our contributions would be "wasted anyway," (at least not put the use we'd prefer.)
Like other posters have said, it a little dope helps the despair, then more power to them. Take them with my blessings.

[bobbolink]

46. Yup, that's me. I'm so into drugs that I gave up a place to live.

:sarcasm:

Thanks for the RW talking point.

Otherwise, we may have gotten to close to compassion.

[suziedemocrat]

111. I Know - Drug Abuse is a huge problem people don't talk about anymore.

It has ruined my brother's life and he is now homeless. Homeless by choice because he is a drug addict. He could live with us, but he would have to give up his drug addict life-style. It is so sad. Why do you never hear drug abuse mentioned as a big problem anymore? Some smart people need to put their heads together and try to tackle this problem.

[petgoat]

172. I knew where there was a drug supermarket 24 hours a day

2 blocks from a police station in a major US city.

You can't operate retail drug trade like that without
cooperation from the police.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

238. Frankly, pet goat, the only difference between them and me

Is that I have had some better breaks in life and can afford better booze. I still fight the same demons and dull the same pains with it, it's just better quality.

[petgoat]

241. Until your better booze is the only thing that matters in your life,

there's a big difference.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

245. How do you know? How do you know it isn't?

The only real difference is that I drink Chateauneuf du pape and they drink wine in a box. We both do it to dull the pain.

[petgoat]

246. Cause you bought a dishwasher. nt

[OffWithTheirHeads]

247. People wresteling with demons can't buy a diswasher?

I suggest you check out your president.

[petgoat]

248. Addicts aren't wrestling demons; they've surrendered to them. nt

[OffWithTheirHeads]

250. My God, you must have had a nice life to be so

holier than thou. I think, if, per chance, there is, actually a Hell, you get to rot in it. After all, it's your hell, not mine.

[petgoat]

258. Describing reality accurately is not making a judgement.

I know whereof I speak from my own experience and the experience of
people I came to know in Tough Love and Co-Dependents Anonymous (CODA)
groups. The truth shall set you free.

I'm not slamming all homeless people. I lived in my car in Manhattan for
almost a year. I'm simply offering some technical information on helping
people. It's a lot more complicated than having a generous spirit.
Becoming someone's unwitting facilitator is not helping them, and it might
help kill them. Junkies die every day.

Years ago when I was a commuter there was a beggar who used to work the
commuter traffic at the railroad station. He was an ugly prematurely balding
guy and I admired his witty pitches and his humorous spirit. About three
months later I overheard him bragging to a friend about how much money he
got working three hours a day--enough to feed himself and stay clean and
support his heroin habit. Why should I support that?

[SoCalDem]

40. Shame on you for not buying a double wide refrigerator

a dishwasher box is pretty small to live in :evilgrin:

The LEAST you could have done is to buy a bigger appliance :hi:

There's something wonderful about appliance box cardboard.. My husband usually wants to "save" it..:shrug:... he lovingly cuts along the seams, and carefully leans it against the garage wall...where it stays for ages until it gets all "spider-y" and dusty, and then it gets tossed..

I do get the drift of your post though... we always have desperately poor people very near us, and 99% of the time, they go unnoticed :hug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. I Mean This Kindly, But Next Time Maybe Invite Him In And Ask If He'd Like To Take A Nice Hot Shower

Ask him if he'd like to enjoy watching tv for a bit or if he wanted something to eat. Ask him if there was anyone he wanted to give a phone call to etc..

Cause for a guy like that, you'd be surprised how much more valuable a nice at home hot shower is than 20 bucks. I know you meant well and I'm glad you did at least something, but just keep in mind next time that there are many more things you could do as well to truly reach out to somebody in need. Those who only hand out a 20 and a blanket generally are more appeasing their own guilt by convincing themselves they've done a truly good deed and can now get on with their day, than they are actually sacrificing to improve the life of another less fortunate.

I don't mean that coldly, as it was definitely a very nice thing that you did and I think it's great that you cared about him enough to even go to those lengths. I just think truly reaching out to somebody in need incorporates taking a few extra steps sometimes, where reasonable.

[grasswire]

49. you have touched on the line that exists in charitable action

Many people want to give as spiritual leaders have instructed: sacrificially, without regard to "worthiness" of the recipient. We espouse the tradition that if a man asks for our coat we should give him our shirt as well; that we should treat each stranger as hospitably as if he were our brother; that if someone does us wrong we should extend mercy and favor (turning the other cheek).

But when all this means that we should allow the "other" -- the dirty and ragged person, the homeless, the uneducated, the smelly, the sick -- to enter our own world, we are afraid for our personal safety.

Charitable organizations, churches and governments have encouraged us all to fear the needy. When we turn over our charitable impulses to institutions, we lose some humanity in the transactions.

I'm not faulting those who would be afraid to ask a dirty man in for a shower.

I'm just commenting on the dilemma the situation raises in today's world.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

71. You're right about the "dilemma" of stepping out of our comfort zone

I stepped out of my comfort zone about a month ago. A soaking wet young hispanic woman knocked on my door looking for dry clothes. She spoke no English. I gave her a jogging suit to change into, a plastic bag & back pack to put her wet clothes in, some dry money for the bus, and food and water. And then I said "what the heck" & gave her a ride to the trolley station. This was something outside my comfort zone, & I hope I did right by her. I hope I didn't drive her to a station that had border patrol checkers. I don't know what her legal status was, but I hope she's doing well.

[Lisa0825]

129. I would be afraid to allow them in.

I have given a ride to a stranger before, just recently in fact. She was stranded in the parking lot of the nearby grocery store, and I gave her a ride to her grandfather's. She looked clean and acted "normal," so I wasn't nervous about her. But someone who was (or even appeared to be) homeless... I would be afraid. Too many of them (note that I did NOT say "all" but sadly many) have issues with mental health or addictions, and while I have sympathy for them, I have to put my personal safety first.

[Danger Mouse]

142. This is true...

Having lived in Baltimore, I can safely say I met a lot of homeless people I wouldn't let anywhere near my home...just for my own safety more than anything else. This isn't pure insensitivity...there are a lot of former (unmedicated) mental patients that walk the streets of Baltimore...I've encountered some, and they can be quite scary.
BE SAFE. Getting yourself hurt or killed won't help anybody. You shouldn't be letting ANYONE into your home until you've gotten to know them at least reasonably well.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

144. Please Tell Me How Many People Are Harmed Each Year By Homeless People, As Opposed To Non-Homeless

people that the victims did in fact know at least reasonably well. Please, I implore you, to give me that ratio.

Mindsets like this one are so completely bigoted and ignorant in my opinion.

[Danger Mouse]

148. I'm not saying that they'd do something to you...

or that a majority of homeless people would hurt you when given the chance. That's just stupid. Please see my other post about living in Baltimore.
If a guy is screaming really crazy shit at me, I'm sorry, I'm not going anywhere near him. This happened to me more than once, trust me.
And yes, I am aware that people are usually more often victims of people that they know as opposed to people that they don't know. I think it's great if you want to help somebody, but I also think that it's important to keep yourself safe.

[Lisa0825]

176. Sorry you think so, but as a single woman living alone,

I will not let strangers into my home, and that includes homeless people. I think you are ridiculous to suggest that. My own ex brother in law was a homeless, mentally ill person, and he scared the crap out of me, and eventually started becoming violent with family members. I see homeless people in the Houston area regularly who are clearly ill or on drugs or both. I will not put my own personal safetly in jeopardy for them. I don't think that makes me a bigot. I think it makes me sensible.

[malaise]

43. What a sad story

and then again you showed such humanity. Yes we as human beings have really failed our brothers and sisters.

[insane_cratic_gal]

47. Wake up calls

:hug:

beauty of the human condition once we realize the only thing that separates people from being "US, or human" is ego. Your outside of your own ego now, what a beautiful thing you are.,

[tabasco]

48. The only way the human race can move forward

is to recognize we are all brothers and sisters.

[Ilsa]

52. Wow. What a story.

I think you did alright by the guy, considering you were taken by surprise. It isn't as if you could get him an apartment or set him up. I hope he can find others to offer him kindness and assistance in the future as he tries to make his way here. Blessings on you and your wife.

[Ms. Clio]

56. thank you

obviously not everyone.

[petgoat]

58. You can build a pretty decent shelter out of cardboard and

plastic for 20 dollars. The reason people have to use boxes is because the
police tear down their shelters so they can't afford to invest in a decent
one. Where people can have stable encampments they can get free windows and
doors, they can buy or scrounge fiberglass insulation.

The problem of homelessness is one of property rights more than anything. My
brother in law used to be homeless in San Francisco. They had great shelters
built in caves under the freeways. The City moved them out and got them hotel
rooms for three days, and brought in heavy equipment and buried all their caves.

That's what keeps people living in cardboard boxes. 'Cause when you're constantly
moved on, you can't invest in your shelter.

[earth mom]

59. Wow what a powerful post.

No words...:cry:

[MissWaverly]

60. At the grocery store, I was approached by an old lady

dressed like the "Murder she Wrote" lady, she asked me help in finding something she could
eat for $2.00, I helped her pick 2 Banquet dinners on sale with the boneless Pork, she said
that she has Medicare and supplemental health insurance and she still is overwhelmed by
medical bills. And I thought, S***t, here's this lady, elderly she worked hard all her life
and is obiviously planned for retirement and it's never enough. Later, I wish that I had thought to give her money.

[emmadoggy]

61. Ugh. That was a wonderful thing you did.

With Thanksgiving just days away, it certainly should remind us all to truly be thankful for all our blessings.

Coincidentally, my sister-in-law called me thursday night. She works as a teacher aid in a special ed classroom in the next town. She called to tell me about this little boy in her class. He is one half of a set of boy/girl twins - they turned five in June or July - and they have a younger sister who is 3. She said this family is so poor that the boy - who is quite small for his age - is coming to school in clothes that are 1-2 sizes too small for him. She said the other day he had a long sleeve shirt on where the sleeves only came just past his elbows.
I happen to have boy/girl twins who will be five in January and are tall/big for their age. I usually have rummage sales to get rid of all the stuff they outgrow, but she was wondering if I could gather up some clothes for these kids and she and the teacher would pay me rummage sale prices for it.
Well, yesterday, I gathered up a great big box full of stuff - jeans, long sleeve shirts, sweatshirts, undershirts, pajamas, shoes, winter boots, tshirts, shorts, sandals and even a few books and a couple of toys. She is coming this afternoon to pick it up and I am giving it to her.

It's bad enough to see or hear of adults suffering through poverty, but the children who suffer really break my heart. It feels good to know, that in some small way I can do something for this one family that will help those kids be a little warmer and more comfortable in the months to come.

[MissWaverly]

65. that's a wonderful thing that you have done

a lot of people are having really hard times right now and the cost of kids clothes is
expensive, some places don't really have nice thrift stores with kids clothes.

[Jcrowley]

63. Bump

K&R

[roguevalley]

64. doing what you did is all God expects us to do. All the rest? Its man

made crap. this is the essence of God's hope and love for us. :hug:

[B Calm]

66. I'm happy to be the 69th person to recommend reading this post!

[buddysmellgood]

67. Roger, Charlie, Bravo...Roger, Charlie, Bravo...we have a code 3 conscience relapse. This is not a

drill. I repeat...this is not a drill. Send lawyers, guns, money to affected zone pronto. This is a Class A containment situation. Subject has gone beyond action phase and is now communicating openly. Entire zone will be fogged. Rove out.

[QuestionAll...]

68. devastating, if you think about it all, it devastates you.

I sometime complain of the uber rich not sharing enough...

but godamn it, I'm uber rich compared to most of the world, and I spend what money I have so frivolosly many times.
so I sit here feeling guilty. exactly how I am supposed to feel. bad. while corporations ravage the world with their economic and military wars for ca-ching change in their greazzy filthy pockets.

It's something like hamburger disease. Factory farms that pay poor wages and only have a bottom line of $ in their devil eyes, would like me to feel guilty about Not Cooking Their Shit right. That, too, is our own damn fault.

arg.

[Solly Mack]

70. Some experiences can change us forever

Our view is expanded along with our hearts.

Another way for people to help people:


Vote for Your Top Human Needs Priorities for the New Congress
http://www.chn.org/2007policysurvey.html

Members of the Coalition on Human Needs
http://www.chn.org/about/chnmembers.html

[mconvente]

72. This makes me tear up too...

What happened to America as a whole caring about the needy...

Thank you for being considerate, my friend. We need more people like you in the world...

:cry:

[MomDude]

73. There's a lot to cry about these days, Comrade

Sometimes we're pathetic, and sometimes we're heartless, and sometimes we're both, but not all the time. There are a lot of people living in boxes and I cry for all of them, and when you have a very up-close, one-to-one, human encounter, which you did beautifully, you are responding to the person, the human, but not to the problem.

Having a heart doesn't mean that we throw open the door and invite them all in to live in our house. If we do that, the house will become a pigsty and we will have defeated ourselves. We simply cannot welcome every comer to the United States and provide for them. We have enough people who are here legally that aren't provided for.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

83. Welcome to D.U. stepdot

Took me a few readings to figure out it was you. Not many folks here know me as comrade. That was the give away.
Love ya darlin,
Peace
Bud

[Stardust]

162. Welcome to DU, MomDude!

:hi:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

239. Momdude is my stepdaughter. So happy to finally see her

here.

[Stardust]

262. That's so wonderful to have loved ones on board.

[ChiciB1]

75. Thanks For Sharing This Story... I'm Sure There Are Far Too Many

more just like him out there. Here in Florida we have good weather, but still less and less is being done to help the homeless.

I saw another thread yesterday about how "we" as Democrats should make sure OUR leaders work more diligently for these types of situations. It's happening all over and I myself personally know people who just barely get food on the table.

If we don't demand more from our leaders, we will no longer have an America to dream about. I've thought Boston Tea P{arty on more than once occasion!

[elehhhhna]

76. Oh man.

[undeterred]

77. I spent a couple of weekends doing Habitat for Humanity in Chicago

many years ago. The first day was in late winter and we were supposed to finish clearing a lot where a house would be built. This was in a city neighborhood, nothing great, and there were 10 of us grad students. The supervisor said be careful of the sidewalk area- sometimes there are people living under the sidewalk.

And sure enough there was a Spanish speaking man lying in the space underneath the sidewalk - he was actually living under there. We had to get him out of there and none of us spoke Spanish. So there we were, 10 do-gooder grad students who had studied many languages but none useful in the current situation, trying to remove someone from a space under the sidewalk so we could help build a house for someone better off than he was.

There is nothing like seeing someone completely desperate to shake you to the core.

[MODemocrat]

78. I wish you were my friend, you have a big heart

It doesn't matter, illegal or not; that man was hungry and alone. This is a sad state of affairs. We
are spending billions on Bush's blood bath, and can't even help people over here?

Thanks for helping that poor sole.O8) O8) O8) :thumbsup:

[davekriss]

80. "God, what a pathetic, heartless bunch we have become"

So glad you've joined us, those who do care and work for change. :)

My guess is you haven't seen this, but there's a wonderful moment in an early John Sayles film, "Brother from Another Planet". The gentle and mute "Brother" crash landed on Earth while trying to escape "enforcement" chasing him across the galaxy. He does much to win our hearts throughout the film.

At one point he finds a dead boy with a needle in his arm. The Brother is very empathic and senses the wrongness of the situation -- to understand more deeply, he removes the syringe, sees some heroin remains, and injects himself. Before he nods out Sayles uses a fish-eye lens to pan on a cold, heartless view of inner-city tenaments (we thus understand). The Brother awakes, shoes stolen from his feet, intent to get to the root cause of all this trouble. After some artful investigatory work he finds the cause high up in an office tower, a white guy wholesaling this misery. But my point here: When after hours the Brother sneaks in to the building, we see another brother, older, quietly observing while polishing the floors. He says nothing while the Brother finds the immoral profiteer and brings him to quick street justice. Moving on...

Near the end of the film enforcement is closing in and it looks bleak for the Brother. One dark night the Enforcers get him in high-tech chains from which there is no apparent escape. Until people start appearing. Plumbers, waitresses, a fireman, office clerks. They force the Enforcers to let the Brother go and chase them into a corner where they self-destruct. The Brother, overjoyed, turns to his rescuers -- and there, standing in front of now a hundred people, is the janitor who quietly polished the floors the previous night.

The mute Brother, with a thankful grin on his face, points up with his thumb as if to say "you from there too?". The janitor quietly shakes his head, no, and points down, here, to mother Earth. Not a word is said but hearts reached across galaxies at that moment.

My point, tmfun, is if you follow a fighting path for social justice, you will find that "brothers" are all around you, many already fighting for change and glad to welcome you to the fight. The thirst for peace, justice, and equality is great! I am glad you recognized the sad wrongness in the situation you described, and even more glad that you reached deeper to do what you could to lighten the burden, albeit only for a moment, on that gentle man. Welcome, brother!!

[OffWithTheirHeads]

81. Wow, sounds like a movie I need to watch

Tonight is as good a night as any. Thanks for the post.

[nam78_two]

82. K&R-on edit just remembered some text I could add

I remember watching Satyajit Ray's (Indian director)acclaimed film "Paather Panchali".

The story is about a wretchedly poor family barely making ends meet and they have an elderly relative staying with them. Its a cruel situation because the family has barely enough for themselves (a mom, dad and two children) and so the charity they can afford to dole out to the elderly relative is given grudgingly since its at a very real expense to them.

There is a scene where this old woman, who is close to starvation, finally drags herself out of there because of her desire to cling to the shreds of her dignity and she takes with her, her one possession-an old, scratched metal bowl. Thats all she has other than the tattered rags on her back.
I think there is song playing in the background with lyrics that go something like "Take me oh lord, the poorest beggar on this earth and you are my only refuge".

It affected me so deeply...I saw it when I was in my teens. I also remember seeing "The bicycle thief" around then. I have since often come in touch with real poverty and deprivation, but as a kid in a middle class household those films were my early introduction to real tragedy and deprivation and I value them to this day because of that.
Ultimately, how most of us end up has more to do with the birth lottery than anything else.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

84. I know someone whose church

does alot of work for the homeless. They're having a collection/fund drive now to outfit backpacks, collect blankets, coats, etc. Last weekend they set up cardboard boxes at a couple of Walmarts and church members spent the night in 30 or so degree weather to raise funds for the project. I know, one or two nights isn't much when the folks they're trying to help have to do it in ALOT of 30 degree, or worse, weather. They're a small, modest church and I haven't seen any of the hoity-toity churches doing much. Neither hubby nor I are "accumulators" but I found a nice washable cable-knit sweater to donate. Gonna try for some funds at the end of the month for the soap, shampoo and other stuff to fill the backpacks.

[renate]

249. I think that's really admirable

Nobody should ever ever have to spend the night in 30-degree weather. That these people willingly did it even once is a testament to their willingness to walk the walk.

That's an amazing and brilliant way to increase awareness of homelessness and of walking a mile in someone else's moccasins. I hope they contact the local TV news stations to get even more publicity, especially as the weather turns colder and the need increases.

[hedgehog]

88. Do what you can and stay angry.

My mother is enraged by food drives. When did food banks become a normal part of life? Compassionate conservatism is destroying our country. We need to take care of people who need help today, but we also need to dig out the sewage that's destroying our way of life. A decent minimum wage is only a start.


Some homeless just need a decent job at a fair wage. Other homeless just need a place to stay until they work out their demons. There was a study out in Colorado that showed it was cheaper in the long run to give these homeless a place to stay and to check up on them periodically to make sure they were eating and not getting sick than to pick them up off the street and take them to a hospital when they collapse from a medical emergency. We're a long ways from such a pragmatic solution.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

99. Here in California, it costs about 75 grand a year to jail someone

I wonder how many would be in jail if they could find a decent job that paid half that.

[Danger Mouse]

89. I lived in Baltimore for five years...

In Baltimore, there were a lot of former mental patients walking the streets. One of them lived in my neighborhood. He was known as 'crazy Mike,' and a lot of people were scared of him. He was homeless, and couldn't get the medication he needed, so he couldn't control his impulses. He'd yell things at people as they were passing by. One time he asked me to watch his stuff for him. It was a garbage bag.
He was often given food by students...strange as he was...there was a surprising amount of compassion towards him.
There were a lot of sheltered, spoiled kids at Hopkins (where I went to school), and the harsh reality of poverty, homelessness, and crime that is Baltimore stared them right in the face from day one. It was dangerous. Some of the poor had turned to crime, and we were prime targets. To those who didn't resort to crime, I was willing to pass a little money to from time to time...because as low as they were, they didn't stick a gun in my face.
I myself was put in a dangerous financial position for a time, but I was lucky that my family could help me. I was very, very lucky.
Now I live in a small, sheltered town, but I commute to Poughkeepsie to work, which reminds me very much of Baltimore. I work with kids that are classified 'Emotionally Disturbed.' Some of our kids come from serious poverty...and it weighs on you. I do my part by doing my best to help the children that come through our program...cause for many of them, our school is all that they have. The only place they feel safe and loved. There's a soup kitchen in the same building that I work. Often we encounter homeless people and drug addicts. Usually, they are very nice people. Not too long ago, one of my students helped me bring spare milks from our school down to the soup kitchen, a small contribution, but a heartfelt one.
I teach sunday school as well, and have seen the joy the children have in giving to others. I am now working on coordinating having my sunday school students make soup for the soup kitchen. They never question this, they do it without hesitation. They made emergency kits for victims of Hurricane Katrina, again without hesitation. With love, and compassion. These children are the hope that lies in our future. We must teach them the lessons we have learned, not to turn away, not to ignore the suffering...and we need to practice what we preach, because I also am guilty of these sins.
All those who suffer...all those who weep...shall be comforted.

[scubadude]

90. The ironic thing is that you could have given him a job....

washing dishes. That's the other irony, had you done so, you would have been breaking the law.

Where does the heart begin? Where is justice? We have replaced human jobs with machines. We have replaced our workers with cheaper ones overseas. We have gradually driven family away. Where once a grandmother would watch the kids, now a daycare center does. In our rush for material goods we have placed our hearts in boxes.

I don't have any answers, but I feel for you. My cousin is sleeping in a shelter tonight. I just might be making a long car ride into the city to pick her up if she isn't accepted. Man, life is tough.

As Studds Terkel said, The Statue of Liberty is Crying....

Scuba

[Tab]

92. I do believe that this is the ONLY post

that I have copied and mailed to others.

Yes, something is fucked up.

[kiteinthewind]

94. Bless you for not being part of the pathetic, heartless bunch.

:hug:

[MoseyWalker]

97. This touched me on so many levels

thanks for posting!

[wtmusic]

98. Similar experience

I was up early one morning at a donut shop when a homeless guy who had been sitting at a corner table got up and held out a couple of bucks to the woman at the counter.

"Thanks for letting me warm up," he said. "Here, take this."

"No! Absolutely not."

"No, you take it. I smell bad, and I'm keepin' the customers away."

"Take your money, and use it on yourself. I won't take a dime."

Then he went outside and rolled up the tattered sleeping bag he had slept in and started gathering up the plastic grocery bags that apparently held everything he owned.

I had a $100 bill in my pocket that a client had paid me with the day before, which suddenly felt like it didn't belong there. Though he wouldn't take it at first, I insisted--I told him if he couldn't use it, to give it to someone who could. He was just the nicest guy in the world. He wasn't mentally ill, but he didn't have a job, so he was on the street.

Why?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

100. Because there are people like you, I still have hope. nt

[OzarkDem]

184. Why? Welfare Reform

We have no safety net any longer for single adults w/o children. Its an unintended consequence of welfare reform, when public assistance began to focus only on families with childrend, those with chronic disabling conditions (mental illness, developmentally or physically disabled, mentally retarded, drug/alcohol addicted or newly released from prison.

In addition, billions are spent each year to pay for massive bureaucracies that "manage" these programs. One in our area (which has one of the highest poverty rates in the US) was recently found to be purchasing custom SUV's for its managers to use as company cars.

If you are out of a job, get sick or injured, etc., there is no safety net and you are invisible unless you have dependent children or are over age 65.

Its an incredibly messed up situation and it needs to be fixed. I'm as socially liberal as they come, but we really need to clean house and fix our system and policies for helping adults.

[wtmusic]

193. Like anything else, if you find the right people

People who are willing to clean house in top management positions--it can mean the difference between a program which works, and one which accomplishes nothing.

[OzarkDem]

211. You're correct

and we have to be willing to accept that we need to police our own ranks to ensure public policy is being implemented the way it should.

As baby boomers age, wages drop, pensions evaporate and even good paying jobs no longer have benefits, people in our generation are left with no safety net. Its a real hidden problem.

[bobbolink]

213. Unintended? I would argue that it's very much intended!

We're no longer needed, if we can't work, and fresh out of ice floes, so..... we can die on the streets.

Not that it matters.

[OzarkDem]

232. As Dems and liberals, I'd like to think its unintended

But our own generation needs to get their head out of their asses when it comes to the aging of the Baby Boom generation.

Believe me, I'm trying.

[bobbolink]

261. I'd like to think that, too, and used to do. But, working on a very progressive

campaign, I found that issues of poverty simply didn't matter to them, no matter how they were expressed.

Believe me, I was shocked.

And heartily dismayed.

I realized that nothing is going to come from the political spectrum on this, and changed my approach to the churches.

At least, the churches do have a "mandate" when it comes to poverty. It's a matter of getting some to pay attention to it. But, they can't really argue, because it's right there, in red.

>Believe me, I'm trying.
I thank you for your efforts! I am so upset that even all the deaths of poor people don't seem to matter anymore, so whatever you can do to get people to open their eyes (and hearts!!) I will applaud!

And, it's not just aging babyboomers---I've been trying to get people here about to understand that these troops coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan are going to need a lot! The women are dealing with PTSD in even greater numbers than men, and they are going to be homeless if we don't start, RIGHT NOW!, creating more low-income housing!

[AZBlue]

102. Wow.

Thank you for sharing!

[novalib]

104. $1,000???!! FOR A DISHWASHER??? And you gave him $20.?!?!

Instead of purchasing a dishwasher (THAT YOU REALLY DO NOT NEED!!!),

why don't you return the appliance, get your $!,000 back, and GIVE IT TO THE MAN?!?!?!?

People existed and survived LONG BEFORE dishwashers came along!!!!

To me, spending $1,000 on something like a dishwasher when there are people living in cardboard boxes is JUST WRONG!!!

[Subdivisions]

105. That's a little unfair. The moral of the story, it would seem to me,

IS the fact that the OP felt he needed a dishwasher when all this man wanted was the box it came in.

It illustrates a realization by the OP of his own superficial needs. His story reminds all of us that there are others who are less fortunate than us and instead of scorning these people, we need to help them.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[novalib]

117. Because if you sold your house.....

Because if you sold your house, you would have no place to live.

DUH!!

NO ONE HERE is suggesting that you sell something YOU NEED (like your house)!!!

But why in the hell do you think you NEED a dishwasher??!!

Are you not able to wash dishes??!!

Lots of people say they NEED things -- like SUV's or Huge Houses or Play Station 3's, or other things that WASTE resources -- resources that COULD be used to feed the hungry and house the homeless.

Instead, we spend money on THINGS we do not NEED -- while millions go without!!!

[Dangerously Amused]

119. Way to piss on somebody who just did a good deed.

For someone who's awfully judgmental about a dishwasher, one can't help but wonder why you have a computer. Perhaps you should sell it and give the money to a homeless person.


Please.

[Wheezy]

128. last I heard,

last I heard the US was still a capitalistic society.

[wtmusic]

130. Where'd you hear that?

It's a blend of capitalism and socialism. Always has been.

[Wheezy]

136. Oh...

probably my mother's repuke talking points.

My point was, I think it's okay to buy a dishwasher if you have the money to buy a dishwasher.

I also think it's quite lovely to give as much away as possible.

I'm a lover, not a fighter. Sorry if I riled you.

[wtmusic]

138. not riled

:thumbsup:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

107. Even better than that

Why don't we get behind some legislation to provide affordable housing? This problem isn't about one man living in a box, it's about 3,000,000 men, women and children, right here in the US living in boxes.

Affordable housing is only one facet of the cure to that problem, but it's a start.

[novalib]

116. NO!

NO!

The problem is that Americans spend money on things they DO NOT NEED.

And they do so because they are bombarded with commercials from the CORPORATE MEDIA that say "BUY! BUY! BUY!! You NEED to spend $1,000 on a DISHWASHER"

And so they spend $1,000 on a Dishwasher -- A DISHWASHER, for crying out loud!!!!

And then, when they see someone WHO CANNOT EVEN AFFORD A HOUSE TO LIVE IN, they think it is OK to give the homeless person $20.00.

Something is REALLY WRONG when we spend $1,000 on dishwashers and give only $20.00 to someone with no place to live.

I have NEVER owned a dishwasher in my entire life!!

Can someone here tell me why ANYONE NEEDS a dishwasher????!!!!!

[Lisa0825]

120. You have a COMPUTER!!! Do you really HAVE TO have a computer???

Do you have a car? Can't you walk or take the bus???? Do you have a TV! Can't you buy books??? Do you have books? How dare you buy books when there are libraries?????

You are VERY judgmental.

I don't have a dishwasher either, but I want one, and when the day comes that I buy one, I won't feel one bit of guilt about it.

You are UNbelievable.

:eyes:

[wtmusic]

121. And you don't "need" a fucking computer, Mr/Ms Holier-Than-Thou

so why isn't that baby in the pawn shop, with the proceeds going to your local shelter? Hmm?

[novalib]

180. ASSUMPTIONS, ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!

I guess you must be ASSUMING that I have a computer of my very own.

I guess you must be ASSUMING that I have a FUCKING computer of my very own.

Well, I don't.

I use a friend's computer. And I use my friend's connection to the internet.

And I also guess you ASSUME that I do not give money to my local shelter.

Your assumption is also wrong there.

At least you did not ASSUME my gender.

Thank you so much for that!

[Quantess]

192. I'm assuming that you're

a windbag with an ax to grind.

I thought that was really nice of the OP to give the man $20.

[Robb]

225. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

199. I don't have to ASSUME that you are wasting time on a message board instead

of earning money to give to the homeless.

[Kali]

127. You are right nobody NEEDS much of anything.

Some blankets or furs, some kind of small waterproof shelter, 1000 calories of cereal gruel per day and you are good to go. Is that how you are living?

[kineneb]

135. need a dishwasher

because Hubby has virtually no immune system, and the dishwasher gets dishes a great deal cleaner than hand washing. Wait until you have a life-threatening chronic illness and then you will find the dishwasher a godsend.

[novalib]

179. Sorry About Your Husband.

I'm truly sorry about your husband.

I would never suggest that YOU did not need a dishwasher.

However, I still suggest that for most people, a dishwasher is a CONVENIENCE --- and NOT a necessity.

[Auntie Bush]

226. So we in this modern world are not suppose to have any conveniences?

Get a grip! Posts like yours are what give the Liberals a bad name.
Besides...most people don't have friends they can sponge off of. I'm glad you are not my neighbor as I wouldn't want to share my computer with you. Not just because of the comments you posted but you come across as a very opinionated person. I don't think we could get along.

[novalib]

234. HAVE ALL THE CONVENIENCES YOU WANT!!!!

I have a pretty good grip, thanks all the same.

ANYONE CAN HAVE ALL THE CONVENIENCES THEY CAN AFFORD!!!

In fact, most AMERICANS HAVE ALL THE CONVENIENCS THEY CAN AFFORD!!

Some think that AMERICANS are ENTITLED to ALL THE CONVENIENCS they CAN AFFORD. People EARN their MONEY -- and, by Gaia, they can spend it the WAY THEY WANT TO!!! They are ENTITLED!!!!

And, if after you have gourged yourself with ALL THE $1,000 CONVENIENCES YOU CAN AFFORD, you feel like collecting some of your loose change so that you can give someone who has no place to live $20.00, GO FOR IT!!

And, if it makes you feel even better, you can also give a homeless person the boxes YOUR CONVENIENCES (the ones you are ENTITLED TO HAVE) came it.

I'm sure we are not neighbors. I don't live in a gated community where people JUDGE those of us who share what we have and who are sharers with others in our own communities as being "SPONGERS"!!!

[Auntie Bush]

235. I don't live in a gated community either. I live out in the woods,

so don't make assumptions. Also, we had no neighbors till reciently...don't even know their names. And by the way, I LOVE my dishwasher...our kids bought it for us...Are you OK with that or does that offend you too?

OK, I'm not really upset with you...but I felt badly for the OP when you attacked/criticized him when he was trying to make a good samaritan point and your reaction. That wasn't fair. That's what bothered me...not you personally...so I apologize for my personal comments...you deserve that and now that I've calmed down...I'm sure you're also a very good and generous person and we could be good neighbors and have fun discussing politics. Truce? (However, that might not be saying much as my neighbors are probably Republicans and I know I could borrower stuff from you when we run out or this ominous recession (elephant in the room) hits us.

[mondo joe]

240. You have a totally cracked view if you think having a dishwasher means you live in a

gated community.

Funny thing is you are so proud to not "JUDGE those of us who share" but you're happy to JUDGE anyone else.

[nedbal]

147. A household of a adult or 2 can get along w/o a dishwasher, more than that...

it can be very useful. I have one that came with the house, rarely use it.

[petgoat]

173. Can someone here tell me why ANYONE NEEDS a dishwasher?

Ummm, to wash dishes?

[mondo joe]

195. Something is wrong when you have to judge others' PERSONAL CHOICES.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

205. No, that's not the problem

That's not even one facet of the problem. You hold a very simplistic view of a complex issue. I'm not going to attack you or condemn you for that, since it only makes a person react rather than act.

There are some good points made in this thread. I suggest you read and educate yourself. Perhaps you can even become part of the solution in time.

[Nicole]

242. I need a dishwasher

In case you haven't heard many parts of the country are suffering from drought. My area is one of them. It's the environmentally friendly thing to try to conserve as much water as possible, dishwashers do that. Hand washing dishes uses more water than a dishwasher.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

123. I Would Wager That If We Poked Our Noses Deeply Into Your Possessions, We'd Find A Life Ripe With

hypocrisy.

I know for certain you at least have a computer. I'd say the odds are favorable that you too have a dishwasher, a stove, maybe a toaster, tv, car, radio, washer and dryer, dvd player, cd player and many other things you technically don't need. You might not have all, but I'd wager you have most.

[novalib]

181. IF AND WHEN I DECIDE TO POST SOMETHING HERE.....

I DID NOT DECIDE TO POKE MY NOSE INTO tmfun's BUSINESS!!!!

tmfum CHOSE to post something here - ON A DISCUSSSION BOARD!!!!

AND I COMMENTED ON WHAT tmfun HAD POSTED!!!

IF AND WHEN I EVER DECIDE TO POST SIMILAR DETAILS ABOUT MY OWN LIFE HERE -- AND TO INVITE COMMENTS ON WHAT I HAVE POSTED....

THEN -- AND ONLY THEN -- will you have the opportunity to STICK YOUR NOSE INTO MY POSSESSIONS!!!

I happen to live a VERY SIMPLE EXISTENCE.

I ALSO HAPPEN TO LIVE according to the notion that EACH PURCHASE I MAKE I MAKE FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF HUMANITY.

I borrow from friends (for instance, I used a friend's computer -- NOT MY OWN, for I have NO COMPUTER OF MY OWN).

So, BEFORE YOU BEGIN MAKING ACCUSATIONS OF HYPOCRISY, PLEASE CHECK YOUR ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!

My posts about tmfun were based SOLELY on what tmfun had written!!!!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

186. ROARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

AAAAAAARGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!! ROARRRRRRRRR!!!!!

That's basically all I just got out of that. Sorry.

[wtmusic]

188. Believe it or not, your invitation is not necessary

for anyone to comment on what you have posted, whether it's your thread or not.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way--you've been so judgemental of tmfun it's only fair to ask about your personal situation. Very, very few of us don't own something that is unnecessary. And since you won't let anyone "stick their nose" into your possessions, we can't tell whether you're a monk, or a rank hypocrite who has made a purchase or two which didn't contribute to the "greater good of humanity". Which is it? :shrug:

[novalib]

218. More of a "Monk"

If my "monk" you mean, someone who lives simply -- tending to my own NEEDS and the NEEDS of others, rather than purchasing CONVENIENCES FOR MYSELF, then I guess you would call me a "monk"!!

I certainly am not catholic or anything like that!!!

And I do not live in a monestery!!!

For me, spending money -- LOTS OF MONEY -- on an EXPENSIVE CONVENIENCE -- while seeing other people whose BASIC NEEDS are not met is WRONG.

But that's JUST ME.

You -- or anyone else -- can feel free to spend YOUR OWN MONEY however the HELL you want to spend it!!

Spend it on $1,000 DISHWASHERS!!

Or spend it on $50,000 SUV's!!

Or spend it on PS3's!!

I DON'T CARE HOW >>YOU<< SPEND >>YOUR<< MONEY!!!

And, if it makes you feel better about spending LOTS OF MONEY on EXPENSIVE CONVENIENCES, go ahead and give poor, homeless people $20.00 in loose change that you have lying around!!

It's YOUR money, after all!!

[mondo joe]

196. How much does your computer cost?

Do you get your hair cut? How much does it cost?

Do you buy books or magazines or newspapers?

[novalib]

215. I Borrow As Much A I Can

I have a friend who cuts my hair.

I feed her cat when she goes out of town in exchange for her cutting my hair.

We look out for one another.

I borrow books -- some from friends, some from the public library.

I also borrow newspapers from friends or at the library. When I actually read newspapers.

And, as I said TWICE -- I do NOT own a computer.

I use a friend's computer.

I live as simply as I can.

I also wash my friend's dishes.

Neither of us see the NEED for a dishwasher.

If either of us had that kind of money, we would certainly use it to take care of our own NEEDS (like food or medical care) or the NEEDS (housing, clothing, food, medical care) of others, instead of going out and buying an EXPENSIVE CONVENIENCE FOR OURSElVES!!!

[mondo joe]

221. Wow, you're a regular Mother Theresa. n/t

[novalib]

216. I Borrow As Much A I Can

I have a friend who cuts my hair.

I feed her cat when she goes out of town in exchange for her cutting my hair.

We look out for one another.

I borrow books -- some from friends, some from the public library.

I also borrow newspapers from friends or at the library. When I actually read newspapers.

And, as I said TWICE -- I do NOT own a computer.

I use a friend's computer.

I live as simply as I can.

I also wash my friend's dishes.

Neither of us see the NEED for a dishwasher.

If either of us had that kind of money, we would certainly use it to take care of our own NEEDS (like food or medical care) or the NEEDS (housing, clothing, food, medical care) of others, instead of going out and buying an EXPENSIVE CONVENIENCE FOR OURSElVES!!!

[Medium Baby Jesus]

222. That's called mooching.

Your friends must love it when you show up. You sound like a self righteous asshole.

[mondo joe]

223. Must be nice to use all the stuff without having to dirty herself with actually

purchasing it herself.

[Lisa0825]

227. Exactly what I was thinking.

I wonder if he/she uses stuff friends bought at WalMart! :rofl:

[novalib]

233. Goodwill, Actually.

No, my friends do not get their stuff at Walmart.

My friends and I get most of our stuff at Goodwill.

And sometimes, people give us stuff when they are done using it.

We share with others in need, and we accept from others who want to share with us.

Our NEEDS are met.

We SHARE with others, so that the NEEDS of others are met, BEFORE WE EVEN THINK about purchasing CONVENIENCES.

[mondo joe]

236. Well, idle hands are the devil's workshop after all.

As any Puritan can tell you.

[Lisa0825]

237. Sorry, but I don't 'buy' it.

You have castigated someone for spending money he fairly earned on an appliance that should last 15-20 years (That's about $50 a year... do you spend that much on coffee or soft drinks?), and then giving $20 to a homeless person, and then made yourself out to be Mother Theresa, except that you have one hell of a bitchy attitude about it, and SHE would actually have GRACIOUSLY thanked a person for the donation and perhaps pointed out other ways to help, as opposed to being a jackass like you have been.

I don't buy for one SECOND that you live like a monk and then use all that built up goodwill to spew rudeness on an internet discussion board. If you were as saintly as you would like to appear, I don't think you'd have such a pissy attitude toward others.

[Kali]

229. I don't like the poster's attitude either, but I will defend the concept of

sharing (borrowing) items like a computer or say some major appliance like a washing machine. Nothing wrong with that.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

197. Should we brand his forehead with a letter D so everyone will know he

bought a dishwasher?

Or do you have some other Puritan punishment in mind?

[novalib]

220. "PUNISHMENT"???!!!

Who is suggesting PUNISHMENT for anyone????!!!

It's HIS MONEY!!!

He should spend it HOWEVER HE WANTS TO!!!

If he has an empty cardboard box and $20.00 left over after purchasing his $1,000 DISHWASHER, and if he wants to give that cardboard box and $20.00 to someone who has no place to live, then GOOD FOR HIM!!

I certainly APPLAUD HIS DECISION TO BE SO GENEROUS with the MONEY HE HAS LEFT OVER after purchasing a $1,000 CONVENIENCE!!

Punishment???!!!

What are YOU TALKING ABOUT???!!!!

[mondo joe]

224. Hey, I have a $1,000 dishwasher too.

It's also water and energy efficient, which is very nice.

I also work with non profits that provide essential services for low income and homeless people.

I also grew up poor, and every day at school had a meal on the Free Lunch Program.


Although it flies in the face of your self righteousness, people are entitled to bring themselves some comfort and convenience. I can tell you that a lot of people who DON'T have those things would LIKE to have them too.

If you want people to live like monks and deny themselves any comfort, luxury or convenience, fine. But I wouldn't want to be quite such a PURITAN myself.

[Shakespeare]

203. OMFG. You are so totally and completely out of line.

And that you don't see that, speaks volumes about you.

Just...oh, my. Fucking. God.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

252. Yup.

What a complete asshole, eh?

If "novalib" feels so strongly about this person's purchase of a dishwasher, maybe this "novalib" individual should sell his car and go find a poor person to give the proceeds to. After all, you don't *NEED* a car. :eyes:

[novalib]

254. Thanks for the PERSONAL ATTACK!!!!!!!

Hey "SeveneightyWhoa", thanks so much for you little personal attack on me!!!

Perhaps if you had actually taken the time to read through this thread, you might have discovered that I live a very meager and simple life.

I HAVE NOT CAR TO SELL!!!!!!!

Isn't it just amazing how some folks think that anyone who posts here simply MUST have a car.

I DO NOT BUY INTO THE CORPORATE CULTURE THAT TELLS US THAT WE MUST HAVE A CAR IN ORDER TO BE "COMPLETE PEOPLE".

[Raine]

108. That certainly gives a person

something to think about. :-(

[Jcrowley]

109. As one who used to work

for ACORN years ago I can only sat that no matter how we may wish for change there is no possibility of addressing root causes through any current political outlet. What is required of us, if we are to be serious and honest with ourselves, is large scale sustained direct movements that challenge the very foundations of this system.

This means taking ourselves out of our comfort zones and risking more than we care to think about. This also means great fellowship and commiseration along the way. No petition-signing, or letter writing, or phone calling is going to alter the circumstances which bring about such abject poverty. These sorts of campaigns are only useful for trimming around the edges, and even that is a stretch these days.

I would suggest everyone read dave kriss' post up thread and contemplate their role in all of this. What I found in my experience in ACORN, and elsewhere, was an impudent body politic that was betrothed to the big business developers and a sadly indifferent populace who would gladly sign petitions but when it came crunch time to try to physically stop the city from removing people few would assist.

So what can we do physically, with our bodies to stand in solidarity with the most vulnerable, the downtrodden. If you were the man in the box what would you hope from me?

Food, clothing and shelter are a right not a privilege. Until we DEMAND this be acknowledged and put into policy our political leaders will continue to pay homage to the lobbyists and corporate controllers.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

110. Mods, please take this thread down

It's getting embarrassing and it's starting to attract freepers.

[Danger Mouse]

124. I think...

it's generating a lot of positive discussion. And there need to be more threads like this on the forums...homelessness and poverty are too often overlooked,
Any thread dealing with a massive controversy will attract scores of idiots.

[kineneb]

139. leave it up, please

I am printing out your OP for the pastor at the church where I play. One of her recent sermons was on how we treat the "least of of these." (very liberal U. Methodist church)

They are collecting the elements to create 50 "health kits" for disaster victims (which could indeed include the homeless).

[KoKo]

112. Dear God...this sounds like a Raymond Chandler post...are you Philip

Marlowe? :eyes:

What is going on here?

[mirandapriestly]

118. The wet air was as cold as the ashes of love

as I pulled the $1,000 dishwasher out of it's box....

[Kali]

115. I was going to jump in and brag about how I pretty much rebuilt my dishwasher

this week. Now I am weeping too. Thankyou for the story. You still have your humanity. It just got caught in the shuffle of everday crap.

[KalicoKitty]

122. Thanks for sharing....

Made me cry....

There are so many out there in need -- legal and illegal. They are all human beings! Bless you for giving him a blanket and some money.

[StrictlyRockers]

132. Good for you. Wow, I think your post just made me cry.

I'm from Santa Cruz, btw.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

133. When my Dad was child, he and his father were homeless.

Five dollars changed their lives. My grandfather was able to have his suit pressed, he had the money to get a shave and a haircut; then he got a job.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

134. tmfun, you are very kind. never mind the hypocrites.

you did a very nice thing for someone who wanted very little.

i don't think that anyone commented that it is striking how much poverty and homelessness there is in san jose, an area where some of the greatest wealth is also concentrated.

[puebloknot]

137. Incredibly moving.

I once met a woman who cleaned my office at night. Before long, she was cleaning my house for me on Saturdays because I was ill and couldn't do it for myself. The story stretched into a 20-year friendship.

She told me about running from the Nazis in Yugoslavia in her teens, then facing dealing with the Communists in her country. And she told me a tale like this one, of scrounging for cardboard boxes to build a shelter to survive in.

This is a growing problem and my fear is that the governmental "solution to the homeless problem" (has a familiar ring, doesn't it?) is going to be getting those people off the streets and into "work camps."

[wtmusic]

140. The WPA and the CCC saved many a life in the 30s

and both were wholly sponsored by the government. There's nothing inherently wrong with the government creating jobs and completing monumental projects at the same time. As a matter of fact, it's the best--cuts out the middle man.

[puebloknot]

170. That's not what I am talking about, though.

If "the government" had it in mind to help people with programs like that, they'd be doing it right now. I'm concerned about involuntarily labor camps, of the sort that Hitler and Stalin created.

[Auntie Bush]

143. Today when I heard Tom Cruise spent 6 million on himself and his bride

for their wedding...I wondered how many hungry people that would feed or how many student loans it could reduce or wipe out? Yes, we are a selfish nation. I'd frankly be ashamed to lavish so much money on myself when there are so many needy.

If all those people who built Mc Mansions had built them with a few less rooms and donated the money to someone, anyone, what a wonderful world we'd live in. Fat chance though because most the rich are Republicans.

By the way, I really admire a rich Democrat!

[wtmusic]

145. A mandatory Peace Corps commitment of 2 years

would turn this entire nation's attitude upside down (for the better).

[Synnical]

151. Have you checked out the Peace Corps recently?

You basically need a college degree to get into the program.

http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=learn.whovol.collegestu.associate

An associate degree and/or work experience can help make you eligible to serve as a Peace Corps Volunteer in areas such as youth development, health and HIV/ AIDS, business development and information technology, agriculture and the environment, and skilled trades. Your combination of education, willingness to learn, work and/or volunteer experience, and a demonstrated interest in one of the programs listed below can set the course for a career-enhancing adventure in the Peace Corps, enabling you to put your degree and experience to work in gratifying ways and opening new worlds of opportunity in the future.

[Danger Mouse]

146. Tom Cruise....

makes me sick. I despise that asshole.
It doesn't help things that he's a scientologist that is helping to spread the disease of scientology.
I will NEVER forgive him for his attacks on Brooke Shields, and anyone who needs medication. Typical ignorant comments from a braindead asshole who doesn't know the slightest thing about the importance of medication when prescribed properly.

[LetsGoMurphys]

155. many very wealthy voted Kerry in 04 n/t

[Horse with no Name]

157. Not to defend Tom Cruise

because he has been acting a bit of a loon and the marriage is a waste of money. But he donates to Democratic candidates.

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=BEVERLY+HILLS&st=CA&last=cruise&first=tom
$10,000 Democratic Primary
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=LOS+ANGELES&st=CA&last=cruise&first=tom
$1000 Friends of Barbara Boxer
$5000 Hillary Rodham Clinton
$5000 Hillary Rodham Clinton
$2500 Al Gore
$5000 DCCC
$1000 Barbara Boxer
$1000 Tom Daschle
$5000 DNC
$1000 Moseley
$2000 Mrazek

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=STUDIO+CITY&st=CA&last=cruise&first=tom
$500 John Kerry

[UrbScotty]

149. "Ya know what? I don't give a fuck what this guy's "legal status" was."

I, as a Christian, don't think Jesus would care about if someone was 'legal' or 'illegal' either. He cares about everyone, and so apparently do you.

[LetsGoMurphys]

154. so true n/t

[madmax]

150. You're a good person tmfun

You have a heart. :hug: :cry:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

152. O.K. why such an expensive dishwasher. Here is why

I live in a condo. The living room, dining room and kitchen are all basically the same room. I bought a Bosh dishwasher because they are the quietest on the market. A used to have a "cheap" dishwasher. When it was on, you couldn't carry on a conversation without yelling because of the noise. Forget t.v. or the radio. I bought the bottom of the line Bosch and it is so quiet, my refrigerator makes more noise. I also bought it cause I could. I have worked hard all my life and I earn a very good living, enough that blowing some money on the things that make my life is pleasant is not a problem. If you think I was excessive with my dishwasher purchase, you would really hate my antiques, art collection, guitars and guns.

I am not one who thinks you have to be poor and wear a hairshirt to be liberal and care about the human condition. I was very poor once. I spent many childhood years in the ghetto in San Francisco. Fuck that! I clawed my ass out of there and now, how much I spend on my toys is my business and I'm glad of it.

[Skittles]

160. I do not use a diswasher

never have

[fortyfeetunder]

168. I can understand that rationale

First your letter left me speechless. I admire your generosity.

I didn't even blink when you first mentioned the type of DW...a noisy one is an ergomomic issue, especially in an flat. My first DW was noisy--this new one is quiet. I wouldn't want to wear ear plugs either when the thing was running.

[wtmusic]

177. Frankly it's sad

anyone feels they have to justify what they spend money on. In the end we answer only to ourselves. Your story was a confession of sorts everyone here can relate to, and IMO for those who need to jump on you with the Mother Theresa schtick perhaps a little introspection is in order.

[Quantess]

214. Sounds practical.

People easily spend that much money with a cigarette in one hand, a beer in the other hand, in front of a video poker machine.

I am going to bet that very few people reading this think you "were excessive" with your dishwasher purchase. The one or two people who made disparaging comments apparently have some sort of axe to grind.

[LetsGoMurphys]

153. When I graduated from college my family and I

went to lunch (morning graduation) and my family insisted I go in my gown, I guess a bunch of others were doing so as well. After we came out of spending $200 on lunch some man living on the street said congratulations man, and he meant it. He wasnt looking for money. We said thank you and kept walking. It kills my father an I to this day that we did that.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

159. A note from the author

I would like to thank each and every one of you who responded to my post. I wrote it originally as a response to another thread and the person who started that thread asked me to make this its own thread. I am overwhelmed by the response it has received. The overall empathy for what I felt has been an unexpected reward a thousand times more valuable to me than you will ever know. Some of the personal e-mails I have received have started me crying all over again with private tales of generosity and compassion.

You are good people, all of you and I consider it a privilege to be associated with you.

Thank you

[Stardust]

166. Thank you starting such a very worthy post. There are so many

compassionate DUers here that are eager to tackle problems that are closer to home, such as homelessness, helplessness, starvation, diseased bodies, unwell minds, as we tackle the political problems, too. It's heartening to see so many DUers respond to this post. Most of us have stories to tell, but those that haven't witnessed the poverty first hand seem to appreciate the sadness and dire importance of it just the same.

I do what I can every day to help at least one of the homeless people I meet in downtown LA and their numbers are legion. We know each others' names and they understand when I can't give. They seem to appreciate friendly chitchat as much as money.

Thanks again for reviving the discussion. It needs to be high priority (I know there are SOOOOO many that need to be.) But we'll tackle them one by one or maybe simultaneously, but we'll get it done.
WE'RE DEMOCRATS! :kick: :applause:
Dare I yell it? LIBERALS! :hippie::applause:
Dare I shout it? PROGRESSIVES! :thumbsup: :applause:

[OzarkDem]

183. You're a great person for writing it

Its something we all need to talk about instead of sweeping it under the rug.

[Historic NY]

164. I'll tell you its been on my mind all day, my first chance to reply

I live in a more rural surburban area and sometimes its not easy to pick off those less fortunate. We have a local food bank and a town pantry that gets stocked heavily this time of the year. The local cops kick in money to make sure people can have a holiday dinner. They sometimes bring in so much food its amazing, but its a tradition they never fail at. It is not uncommon to find a person sleeping under a bridge abutment or in a wooded area. My point is there are many people just one short pay check from needing that dish washer box, it makes you wonder.

[wiley]

165. We're leaving the church tomorrow

This year, thanks to increased prescription drug co-pays and increased insurance premiums my entire family has agreed not to buy any holiday presents. We've all also agreed to do something that is of great significance to a family that revolves around core religious beliefs. We're leaving our church. We have too many kids and grandkids who actually should never hear about the evil they call homosexuality or the danger of gay marriage. No kid choses to be gay and the biggest problem that they face is parents who don't love them for who they are.

People are starving next door, and around the world. People are being murdered for some wealthy asshole's version of geo-political games playing. We will not endure another sermon warning of the danger of being complacent against the Islamic attack on Christianity. Ask me if I give a shit about the celibacy of Catholic priests. I'm more worried that one of my grandkids is going to get over-friendlied by one of the twits.

What a sad and really fucked up past six years it has been. Impeachment is too good for the current White House and their enablers/collaborators.

I have really, really had it. I no longer accept the greedy, hate-filled, assholes that run the profit and hate machines that most churches have come to be. The trash they are filling up our children's minds with is intolerable.

I think it's all the TomKat wedding coverage that has made me snap. When that shit, which I really could give less than two shits about, preceds the story of the loss of more soldiers and civilians in Iraq, millions of starving raped and murdered women and children in Darfur, and polar bears drowning so some guy with a little pee-pee can drive a Hummer, it has become too much.

So we'll be collecting and distributing cans of food and other edible items, while proselytizing about the true meaning of any religion - helping others, being humble, and defending our loved ones instead of killing for oil and corporate profits.

There used to be a time in this country where you never hit or abused a woman or child, abused another person's privacy, or killed to maintain the racial purity of your neighborhood or town.

What a land of waste and heartlessness and corruption and dishonesty and selfishness and greed Republicans have led or agreed to us being led into. No, I'm no turning the other cheek for them anymore, no matter how many American flags and fear driven delirious rants they wrap themselves in. Six years ago this country was not the ethical and moral cesspool that it has been turned into. The neo-cons just didn't lose Iraq or defile Democracy, they fucked up the US and all those who once saw us as a working beacon of hope.

And God Bless You tmfun. You are a real, good, true blue American. If everyone acted like you we wouldn't need political parties.

[Porcupine]

167. Join the Unitarian Jihad

Unitarian Jihad

Beware! Unless you people shut up and begin acting like grown-ups with brains enough to understand the difference between political belief and personal faith, the Unitarian Jihad will begin a series of terrorist-like actions. We will take over television studios, kidnap so-called commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions of the issues of the day. We will not try for "balance" by hiring fruitcakes; we will try for balance by hiring non-ideologues who have carefully thought through the issues.

We are Unitarian Jihad. We will appear in public places and require people to shake hands with each other. (Sister Hand Grenade of Love suggested that we institute a terror regime of mandatory hugging, but her motion was not formally introduced because of lack of a quorum.) We will require all lobbyists, spokesmen and campaign managers to dress like trout in public. Televangelists will be forced to take jobs as Xerox repair specialists. Demagogues of all stripes will be required to read Proust out loud in prisons.

We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: "Sincerity is not enough." We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone.

[wiley]

178. Okay! No meetings, though. (Sunday Brunch Committee, 14-0, 11 absent)

"Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution."

[BenDavid]

169. I know not much of the New

Testament but one writer I am familiar with is james. In this book he talks about a brother and sister. I use this example to show the difference between a repblican right winger and a liberal...Follow along.

There is this brother and sister in need of food and clothing. One man walks up to them and sees their plight. He ask them to bow and they pray. After praying the man walks away.

The brother and sister still in need of food and clothing...

Now another walks their way. He stops talks to them and he takes them over to the clothing store and buys them clothes. Now he takes them and buys them food. Now the man turns and looks at them both and says to them, "now, let us pray". Afterwards the man walks away and the brother and sister return home....

Now, do you see the difference? Look at what is going on in todays right wing. Take away from the least among us and all they can say is they will pray....

We on the left better get back to being what democrats stand for and if we do what is asked of us then we will all benefit from it....
Words and deeds....

[dysfunctional press]

182. a dishwasher box?

how tall was the guy...? wouldn't he have more room in a refrigerator box? (or is more a question of zoning...? or maybe he figured that he wouldn't be able to afford the property taxes on the extra square footage?)

[survivor999]

187. What is sad is that living in a box in the US

for this guy seems to be still better than living in his original country. Otherwise he'd go back, I assume.

[1932]

217. I'm not sure your average American's moral responsibilty for the suffering of

people on the bottom ends when these people cross the border out of the US.

[XOKCowboy]

206. In San Jose (or Silicon Valley in general) he could rent out the box.

for a couple hundred a month! I'm amazed everytime I go there what it costs to live and work there. I've talked to tons of service people in Santa Clara and San Jose who work 2 jobs (with a spouse doing the same) just to be able to work in the valley.

Good on you for what ya did.

[petgoat]

259. When you can buy a good motor home for $1500 dollars,

why anybody would pay high rents is a mystery to me.

[The Straight Story]

207. Thanks for the fine story and posting it here

Helps keep faith in some of humankind.

[savemefromdumbya]

208. America, the country of greed and waste

well, most of us. Pity the havenots.

This is where distribution of wealth to the poor needs to be put into action.

How many kids do you see take one bite of a hamburger and throw it in the trash.

Look at all the institutions and stores which throw away tons of food every day

People use dishwashers (I am guilty) and clothes washers when they could do it by hand and hang washing out to dry.

How many people in the top earning sector who say 'the poor are not taking MY money.

The country of greed and waste.

[novalib]

231. EXACTLY!!!

AMERICA -- LAND OF THE WASTEFUL and HOME OF THE GREEDY!!

Land of the "I got MINE!"

Land of the "I'm ENTITLED to MY CONVENIENCES"

Land of the "AFTER I buy MY EXPENSIVE CONVENIENCES, I'll give WHAT I HAVE LEFT IN SPARE CHANGE to the PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT HOMES OR FOOD".

Land Where SHARING is CALLED MOOCHING!!

LAND OF ME! ME! ME!

Land where we "take care of one another" by giving our SPARE CHANGE.

[savemefromdumbya]

256. local government laws should tighten up waste

just think supermarkets, colleges, schools should be made to redistibute food to the needy up stepping the food bank etc.

Manadatory charity fee for the homeless - can be incorporated in county or city proerty tax.

[WindRavenX]

209. tmfun, ignore the assholes in this thread. You did a good thing.

Many small acts add to great things :hug:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

244. Oh trust me, I've been involved with the "left" since the 60's

There is always one who thinks they are "lefter than thou". I pay them the same attention I pay the rest of the "fundies". absolutely none. I've dealt with the Communists, the Marxists, the Anarchists, etc. The problem with the "true believers" is that, like fundies everywhere, it's their way and no other. Fuck them. They are as nuts from the left as from the right. I have been to too many rodeos to let them bother me. In fact, the threat from so called leftist fundies is as serious as the threat from right wing fundies. The Kamer Rouge comes to mind. First thing they did was execute the educated. Doctors, professors, etc. I taught some classes with some Vietnamese refugees in attendance. Once we got them to open up, the stories they told were beyond incredible. It would require more time than I have to share their stories of the "left" going berserk.

I consider myself to be very left of center. My family nickname is comrade. But I'm not stupid. Fundamentalist beliefs that tolerate No dissent, are bullshit, period.

I called out the poster I think you are referring to as an escapee from Free Republic. The mods deleted MY post. You might think that a post that contains ALL CAPS would be a give away, but so be it.

I have never pressed the alert button in the 6+ years that I have been here. In fact, I have never, intentionally punched the "Ignore" button either. Not even for Carlos who, for those few of you who remember him, could be annoying. Hey, we never agreed but his input had as much value as mine. As such, I don't really know how to put someone on "ignore" but I think I may have to learn.
Peace,
Bud

[spuddonna]

210. You done good...

:) Don't let the critics get you down!

We are all faced with moments in our lives where we can have a positive effect on others. No situation is cut and dry - this isn't a TV special where all problems are solved in a half-hour.

It's reality, and you did the most important thing: You not only said yes to helping him, you went the next step and said "what more can I do?"

That is what makes a real difference in this world. Peace! :hi:

[TheMadMonk]

212. There is something virtually all of us can do.

Something which can restore a little dignity to the lives of these people as opposed to simply helping them get through one more day.

It is as simple as putting together a basic toiletries pack that should cost less than $5 to assemble: A cake of mild soap, toothbrush and paste, razor, and a hairbrush or comb.

Perhaps any barbers/hairdressers amongst us, might volunteer some time to help people with their grooming, though I understand that there might be health and safety issues (real and imagined) to contend with.

[Zhade]

219. I'm glad you cried. Your humanity is not dead.

And you're right, it's very wrong, this equation.

[Nicole]

243. You did a good thing

Don't let anyone try to tell you different.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

251. O.K.. on a lighter note, has anyone checked out the dishwasher

ads at the bottom? I mean really, give me a fuckin break!

[MissMarple]

253. It's all in the perspective, isn't it?

Good on ya! You all did the right thing. And, as a country, we still forget our Appalachian poor, our urban and rural homeless. May God forgive us all.

[ileus]

257. The dishwasher I bought yesterday didn't even have a box...

worth living in....our lowes has everything on sale, opened a new store 5 miles away.

[Xenotime]

260. Well, he couldn't very well sleep in the dishwasher now, could he?