There was a time in my life when I agreed with Elton John about religion

[dsc]

While I never would have said that we should ban all organized religions, I did have a very real problem with organized religion. I was gay bashed in college. I was walking in a deserted alley and was beaten by three goons. I woke up in a hospital bed. Though I wasn't hurt too badly, I wanted to talk to a chaplin. I was upset, humiliated, and a religious person who just wanted to unload. The chaplin came up to my room and we started to talk. Eventually I told him what had happened and he told me that "maybe God was sending me a message". I was so mad, hurt, and bitter, that I blamed not only that chaplin but Jesus too. Yes, a better person would have not blamed Jesus for what his follower did. I own some of that feeling but not all of it.

I don't know why Elton said what he said. I have no idea what his early life was like. But before you judge gays for blaming organized religion you might want to walk a mile in their moccasins.

One final note. Ask yourself how it would feel to be a lesbian or gay in Tennessee today. Assuming that 4% of Tennesseans are LGBT and that they split 9 to 1 against the amendment, they provided 0.4% of the 80% who voted yes and 3.6% of the 20% who voted no. That means that non LGBT voters provided 79.6% of the yes votes and 16.4% of the no votes. 79.6/96 represents the presentage of non LGBT voters who voted yes. That was 83% of non LGBT voters voting for that amendment. That is just shy of 5 out of 6. For every 12 straights a typical gay Tennessean knows, on average 10 voted for that amendment. Organized religions caused that amendment to be. Their footsoldiers provided the votes. I know several gays and lesbians who were rejected by their families. They all have one thing in common. The families of all of them were deeply religious people.

I know Elton is wrong but I didn't always know that.

[Mythsaje]

1. Last time I was visiting my father, he brought Elton John's statements up to me...

I said, "I agree with him."

My dad said, "So do I."

I tend to think organized (revealed) religion is a scourge. From the Islamic Fundamentalists chewing up the Muddle East to the Fundies currently screwing up the dialogue here.

I'm pretty much under the impression that the world would be a much better place if someone VERY powerful was to tell them "YOU don't have a monopoly on the Truth, so stop pretending that you do. Sit down and shut the fuck up."

[WindRavenX]

10. well said

:thumbsup:

[BuyingThyme]

2. Elton is wrong about what?

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. A remark about religion in an interview

I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays. But there are so many Christian people I know who are gay and love their religion ...

...

I just find it more human. We should all be together. I've got this really naive idea of what life should be like - it's an idealistic idea but it's completely integrated. We can't keep thinking of gay people as being ostracised; we can't keep thinking of Muslim people as being (ostracised) because of the fundamentalism that occurs in Islam. Muslim people have to do something about speaking up about it. We can't judge a book by its cover.

From my point of view I would ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it. I love the idea of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the beautiful stories about it, which I loved in Sunday school and I collected all the little stickers and put them in my book. But the reality is that organised religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate.

The world is near escalating to World War Three and where are the leaders of each religion? Why aren't they having a conclave; why aren't they coming together? I said this after 9/11 and people thought I was nuts: instead of more violence why isn't there a (meeting of religious leaders). It's all got to be dialogue - that's the only way. Get everybody from each religion together and say 'Listen, this can't go on. Why do we have all this hatred?'

We are all God's people; we have to get along and the (religious leaders) have to lead the way. If they don't do it, who else is going to do it? They're not going to do it and it's left to musicians or to someone else to deal with it. It's like the peace movement in the Sixties - musicians got through (to people) by getting out there and doing peace concerts but we don't seem to do them any more. We seem to be doing fundraisers for Africa and everything like that but I think peace is really important. If John Lennon were alive today he'd be leading it with a vengeance.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/omm/story/0,,1942193,00.html

[Lautremont]

3. He sounded pretty spot-on to me.

[msongs]

4. elton john knows a fairy tale when he sees one - what message was god sending you?

so you were criminally attacked and the chaplin says god was sending you a message.

nice to know the chaplin has a direct line to his version of god. and what was the message god was sending you? quit being a homosexual? that you deserved to be criminally attacked for being gay? stay out of deserted alleys where bad things can happen?

Christianity, like all religions, is an OPINION. elton john has his opinion, your chaplin has his, you have yours. they are all equally valid only to the person offering and believing them.

should religion be banned? I don't think so. I am willing to settle for people to keep their religions to themselves, however.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[BuyingThyme]

5. Religion is opinion surrendered.

[Atlas Mugged]

9. Good line

I love simple, direct statements.

As for the subject of this thread, I'm with Elton.

[Leopolds Ghost]

80. That implies that opinions are paramount or equally valid

As another poster put it -- a very postomodern thing of you to say.

Fox News appreciates your postmodernism. It is the cultural logic of late capitalism.

[irislake]

6. If you ask me organized religion does far more harm than good in the world

I'm happy to say it's importance has been dwindling in Canada for years -- as in Europe. Recent polls taken by a Canadian group shows that religion in the U.S. is also declining. And Americans, particularly in the northern states are very similar in their views to Canadians. Americans are more "liberal" than results of your elections indicate. That is --- they believe pot should be legal, gay marriage and so on. I am not surprised by the results because I believe the last two elections (2000 and 2004) were stolen and that your right-wing mainstream media does not accurately reflect what most Americans believe. I think The Daily Show and The Colbert Report reflect American attitudes far more than CNN or FOX. However, there are a lot of nuts in the Southern states. My opinion.

[Rage for Order]

14. You may want to ask the residents of the Gulf Coast about that

Ask them who the majority of volunteers were who came into town and helped them rebuild their lives and homes following Hurricane Katrina. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't the American Atheists Alliance.

[ThomCat]

25. A lot of athiests did go down there

and a lot of them even volunteered with "christian" organizations that were going down there. Athiests don't feel the need to stamp their volunteer work. We just do it.

[Rage for Order]

28. I don't doubt they did

I'm sure some atheists did go down and volunteer, but the majority of volunteers, at least on the MS Gulf Coast, were people who came as a group with their church.

[PassingFair]

34. Maybe that's because the majority of americans are believers...

in one religion or another.

I resent your implication that religious people, per capita,
are more humanitarian, or into volunteerism, than non-religious
people.

[mondo joe]

35. Because the churches are catastrophe opportunists. They wait for

incidents that create new pools of recruits.

They're like a virus.

[Rage for Order]

36. Yeah, that's it

The Mennonites put a new roof on my in-laws house, and all they asked was that my in-laws cook them dinner. Some serious proselytizing there. (And no, my in-laws are not Mennonites themselves)

[Exiled in America]

40. Just an example of how ignorant and stereotypical a lot of people are

They "think" they know all this shit about all "organized religion" and thus make idiots out of themselves through sweeping ill-informed generalizations.

[mondo joe]

43. Yeah - because organized religion has never exploiterd tragedy to proselytize.

:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

82. All activists exploit tragedy to proselytize

Including "us".

Look at the people I talked to in 2002 who claimed that the marches wouldn't stop the war but "if we can get this many people in the streets now, just THINK when the body bags start coming home!" Look at the people who siezed on Katrina while it was still ongoing to pontificate about politics and Bush while Gretna sheriffs (some of whom were Dems) were shooting at people on the bridge. Look at some of us positively slavering over the prospect of war with Iran or the draft and how it would "wake America up". "Heighten the contradictions" is the left version of proselytism and poverty pimping. It's why you don't hear anyone (except ironically James Carville) complaining about how Bill Clinton eviscerated welfare. They were positively slavering over the prospect of putting people on the streets and how it would "heighten the contradictions" and when poor people simply survived and faded into the woodwork, they declared success and went home. So I resent your implication that religious people are the only ones exploiting poverty relief and disaster relief.

[Bluebear]

59. Also, the "discussion" causes an "abundance" of "quotation marks"

Apparently.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Uh, the center I worked for did not proselytize the people it helped

We had black people, white people, Latinos, Native Americans, and Vietnamese coming in for food, clothing, medical care, and applications for help with clearing their land, and we didn't even know what religion they were, if any, much less try to convert them.

Sorry to counter your dearly held prejudices there.

By the way, Episcopal Relief and Development, Lutheran World Relief, and Catholic Charities, among others, all supplied food, tents, and warm clothing and bedding to the survivors of the Pakistan earthquake, all without the least bit of proselytizing of the almost entirely Muslim population.

[Bluebear]

46. Baptists Withhold Water in Name of God

The Anheuser-Busch beer company has been helping in the relief effort, too. Ever since hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast states and left New Orleans and parts of coastal Mississippi in shambles, the company has been canning water and shipping it to those who need it. The canned water is given out for free by the Red Cross and other volunteer organizations.

The vice-president of operations for Anheuser-Busch claims the company has donated more than 9 million cans of clean water since Katrina. He said the company would continue to produce canned water until it is no longer needed.

So we have the SBC who has volunteered to hand out free drinking water and we have the Anheuser-Busch company who has agreed to supply and ship millions of cans of it to places where it is needed. It sounds like a perfect match up.

But the SBC will have no part of it.

The Southern Baptists were running a supply center in Clewiston, Fl. Early last week, but they were not handing out any canned water to the hundreds of folks in line who were desperate to get it.

Although 22 pallets of canned water were available for the SBC to hand out, they left it sitting on the sidelines and refused to hand it out to the hurricane victims. Few of the victims even knew the water was available.

SBC volunteers said the pastor did not want to hand out the water because it was contained in Budweiser cans. The SBC thought it was inappropriate to hand out the cans, even though they contained clean water and not beer.

http://wilstar.com/OverCoffee/blog/2005/11/baptists-withhold-water-in-name-of-god.html

[Rage for Order]

50. No argument from me

I didn't say all religious people do good work. I was replying to the poster who said that organized religion does more harm than good by relaying some instances in which that is clearly not the case. There are plenty of good atheists and plenty of bad people of faith, and vice versa.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

Yeah, that's the type of thing the Southern Baptists would do

Anheuser-Busch could have sent the water over to the Episcopalians (who serve sherry at church receptions) or some other less uptight denomination.

[Bluebear]

45. Please document that BULLSHIT about "American Atheists Alliance"

How the hell do you know what the relgious makeup of volunteers was? How dare you.

[Rage for Order]

48. It's a made up group

Actually, I don't know if it's a made up group, maybe there is such a thing and I don't know about it. At any rate, I was being facetious. And how do I know about the religious makeup of the volunteers who went to the MS Coast? Because I lived there for 25 years, my parents and wife's parents still live there, and I have numerous friends who live there, and they all have kept me informed of the post-Katrina rebuilding effort. In addition, I read the local newspaper online almost every day just to keep up with what's going on in my hometown. You can read it here:

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/

Beyond that, it's pure conjecture on my part.

[mondo joe]

64. Yeah - plenty of "made up" things in your argument.

[Rage for Order]

65. Yeah, so many that you couldn't even list one. n/t

[mondo joe]

67. You just said you referenced a "made up group".

Duh.

[Rage for Order]

72. I suppose you could say that...

Because I took the liberty to make up a name for organized atheists that I'm making things up to support my position, but you could also say that I was using a literary device to make a point regarding organized assistance in the aftermath of a disaster. I think the latter is more accurate.

[mondo joe]

73. That's not a literary device. It's BS. Thanks. n/t

[Rage for Order]

74. You're right, I'm wrong, you win. Have a good night.

[Bluebear]

75. i KNEW you were sensible!

;)

[Rage for Order]

77. Bluebear, I'm nothing if not sensible

Thank you, I enjoy talking with you. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Uh, what "American Atheists Alliance"?

Welcome to DU.

Now, please back up whatever crap you're spreading here.

[Rage for Order]

49. Again, I was being facetious

However, the point of the remark is that there is power in numbers, and when people are organized into groups, as churches are, they are able to leverage their efforts more effectively, thus accomplishing more than those who would volunteer individually.

[Bluebear]

52. Baloney. I know three agnostic young ladies from New York (BOO!!!!)

who DROVE down to assist. Personally, I bought books for libraries in the New Orleans area. To even intimate that only religious people helped is way off base.

[Rage for Order]

60. That is not what I said

I did not say that only religious people helped, but if I did please point me to the post and I'll be happy to both eat my words and edit the post. And yes, you non-religious-heretic-heathen-blasphemous-tools-of-satan (sarcasm, just in case) are very scary, so please don't say "BOO" like that again. All of my underwear is already dirty and I don't have any left to change into should you decide to do that again.

[Bluebear]

68. It was this one . . .

'Ask them who the majority of volunteers were who came into town and helped them rebuild their lives and homes following Hurricane Katrina. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't the American Atheists Alliance.'

Having said that. You are a funny guy :)

[Rage for Order]

71. To be fair...

I did say the majority, not all. And thank you. :)

[Leopolds Ghost]

81. Religion is declining amongst the 1st world educated elite for one reason and one reason only

Materialism.

This is the same reason religion declines in importance in all wealthy civilizations in decline: Rome in 200-300s, Florence after the Plague, etc.

No bones about it. Some lefties are dialectical materialists and embrace this phenomenon. Others are postmodernists and embrace the phenomenon. Either way, they are embracing the notion of a technocratic global elite putting themselves above everyone else and preaching revealed truth to the masses, just like the priestly elite did before. Only the revealed truth of postmodernism is quite simple: Don't Question My Beliefs. It's a great inocculation against more traditional forms of leftism and since most atheists on the left have abandoned Marxism for either postmodernism (cf. Postmodernism and the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism) or a retrograde modernism (cf. the monstrous worship of technology that is RE-emerging among the global elite in the world's cities, 40 years after Allen Ginsburg wrote "Moloch".)

[Bluebear]

7. What is Elton wrong about? nt

[Chomp]

8. I wonder what percentage of people

in the West will be atheists/agnostics in 100 years. My guess: a majority.

[Karenina]

11. Stockholm Syndrome.

Elton was expressing HIS OPINION. There's nothing wrong or right about his opinion, it's nothing more than HIS OPINION. Your taking it so personally is another matter...

[mmonk]

13. There was a time when I disagreed with Elton John about religion.

But religion, this new rightwing republican party, and the rightwing judges have given me the gift of hatred. It's pretty sad, but that's the way it is. I'll still attend because my wife wants me to. But I will never get anything out of it anymore because of negative thoughts.

[robcon]

15. astonished how many DUers want to repeal the 1st amendment.

Any other problems with the Bill of Rights? Anyone? Bueller?

[dsc]

16. What part of "I would not ban religion"

was unclear? Amazing how many DUers can't read. Any other problems making up things? Anyone? Bueller?

[mmonk]

18. I was just being facetious.

I'd be happy with the way it was (separation of church and state).

[donco6]

79. Not so fast.

Speaking your mind is one thing - and a lovely thing it is. But influencing the government to the point that decisions are made based solely on the Bible (and a weak basis at that) is quite another. It's not a "First Amendment" problem. It's a theocracy problem.

What is the basis for denying gays the right to marry, anyway? Is it a "First Amendment" issue that those who love free speech should actually *support*?

[Leopolds Ghost]

83. When did gay marriage become a first amendment issue?

This culture war shit is getting tiresome.

It wasn't so long ago that respected gay activists were writing in the pages of Harpers, Washington Monthly, etc. noting that the government was responsible for the push for gay marriage because of their ridiculous laws that benefit married couples over unmarried households. The government has no business defining marriage one way or another. I will also point out that these same gay activists thought the whole gay marriage thing was ridiculous and yet another example of all-or-nothingism on the left, at a time when a majority of Americans supported civil unions, a small minority of the civil union activists had hijacked the movement and reversed public sentiment by trying to redefine marriage, thereby reversing over a decade of gains in the civil union department. They also predicted it would hurt Kerry in 04. (Feel free to argue with them, not me.)

[Bluebear]

17. "I wanted to talk to a chaplin"

Sorry. :)

[mmonk]

19. Too hard to pass up I take it.

[Bluebear]

20. I just couldn't.

Something about being in a distressing situation and a comic comes out to cheer you up or something. Never mind :)

[sandnsea]

21. You're a bigger person than I

I despise religion and I haven't had near the negative experiences that you have. It should make living on this earth a joyous experience of working together and enjoying each others talents, the gifts God gave each of us.

Look at this. My niece just sent pictures in my email, look at the web site of the Habin Ice Sculptures. Why can't we just have this and skip all the fighting over resources and holier-than-thou religiosity that nobody can live up to anyway.

http://www.rtoddking.com/chinawin2005_hb_sf.htm

[dsc]

23. lovely pictures

I am not a big fan of winters up north and don't often miss the weather at this time of year, but I do miss the ice and snow sculptures that you could see in places like upstate New York.

[sandnsea]

26. That was China

I don't know why we don't spend more time celebrating what we all bring to the world instead of bringing each other down. Harbin is where they had that spill that contaminated their water supply last year. I'm afraid we're going to lose all the beauty people have to bring to the world before we solve all the problems. Religion has an opportunity to step in and bring people together, like Elton John (and some other dude) suggested. Instead they're focusing on stupid shit like birth control and gay sex. :crazy:

[dsc]

27. That is where I heard the name of the city

I knew I had heard of it, and not for ice sculpture, but I couldn't remember how.

[Bluebear]

33. Just incredible photos. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. You said:

"...It should make living on this earth a joyous experience of working together and enjoying each others talents, the gifts God gave each of us."

At its best, it does. That's why so many people are still involved with it, even though they aren't required to and in this day and age, would find little community disapproval for being secular.

Someone up the thread referred to the Mississippi Gulf Coast. I volunteered there at a joint Lutheran-Episcopal relief center early this year, and it was an almost magical experience, despite the discomforts (150 of us from all over the country sleeping on cots in a school gym and eating mediocre food and getting by with 4 toilets and 4 showers for each gender), We followed a routine of prayer and announcements in the morning, a full day of work, either clearing lots or distributing supplies, and a service in the evening, almost monastic, but there was something compelling about it. Some people had come intending to stay for a week (as my group did) and had ended up staying for months. At the end of the week, I realized that I hadn't even thought about any of my normal problems. A couple of members of our group have gone back once or twice.

This is just one example. There have been many others. My very large parish has a lot of wonderful communities, from the crew that feeds homeless youth every week to the choir to the study groups to the various groups that act on issues such as the environment. By the way, uncloseted GLBT people play a huge role in the parish, including the vestry (governing board).

I'm sorry that some of you have had bad experiences, but saying "We ought to get rid of religion" because you've had bad experiences is like saying, "We ought to get rid of nature" because you've been bitten by mosquitoes.

[sandnsea]

42. You can tolerate hypocrisy

I can't. Sorry, it's just not in my nature. We went to a 50th wedding renewal Friday at a Baptist church. The first words these people said to my daughter and her husband, who they had never met, was "Do you have a church family?" The absolute audacity. You like that, fine. It makes me vomit. As if people can't be equally moral and contributing citizens without a "church family". I hate the condescension, I hate the self-righteousness. Even when you're working on a beneficial project, you've still got the blue lipped harpies yapping away, saying the most horrific things about the people they're supposedly 'joyously' helping. No thank you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Sorry, I haven't encountered that

I'm not a Baptist, so my first thought upon meeting a new person is NOT how to rope them into attending my church. Northern mainline Protestants often come as a surprise to those whose only experience of Christianity has been Southern or West Coast fundamentalists. We don't greet new acquaintances with, "Are you saved?" :-)

My experiences on service projects have not been as you describe.

In fact, when I was down in Mississippi, the priest who was in charge of the center told us, "You can either serve people or judge them. You may think that someone is taking 'too much' food, but some of these people literally have fifteen relatives living in their house. They might be getting it for someone who is housebound. You don't know." In the whole group, I met one woman who seemed to be making borderline racist remarks, but on the whole, the spirit was incredibly positive, and even that one woman, an RN, worked congenially with everyone in the medical tent, where I was handing out OTC medicines, diabetic kits, and first aid supplies.

And churches are hardly the only place where hypocrisy abounds--although it abounds in some churches more than in others. If we were to get rid of all the human institutions that contain hypocrites, we'd have nothing left but solitary caves.

[sandnsea]

78. Hypocrites are everywhere, that is true

I don't deny that. It just seems to me there are more in churches than other charitable organizations and they're more outspoken in their judgment. That's my experience, in all kinds of churches. Some people have a more even temperament and can tolerate that sort of thing in order to contribute to the greater good. I just don't. Churches do an enormous amount of good and I do appreciate that. I just wish the people who do good would worry as much about the things inside them that 'need some help' too.

[Sapphocrat]

22. I think the world of you, dsc...

...but (you knew there was a "but" coming), Elton is not flat-out wrong. It's just his opinion -- and (quite sadly, I must admit), as the product of a Catholic upbring, I agree with him: (Most) organized religion encourages hatred of gay people. How can anyone argue with that?

As for how it would feel to be a lesbian or gay man in Tennessee -- well, I can't imagine. I would leave.

[dsc]

24. I don't understand how Tennessee could have been so bad

it has both Nashville and Memphis which are large, diverse, cities. I must admit to being glad not to live there. Though I also wonder how bad we would lose here if it came to a vote. I don't think it would be 80/20 in NC, but I don't think we would do as well as Virginia did 57/43. My guess is that we would be around 60/40 maybe even 65/35.

[sandnsea]

29. It went 57/43 in Oregon

In 2004. That it would do the same in Virginia is pretty telling. We only had one county that didn't vote to ban gay marriage. It's why I support civil unions, people have to start getting used to the idea before we can move forward. It's just the way people are, especially when their head is filled up with "evil evil evil" every Sunday.

[dsc]

30. Virginia's was especially punative

it even banned private contracts that gays enter into to jointly own houses and the like, and many northern Virginian's came out to vote against it. Webb may well have won due to the backlash.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. That's very disappointing, but in fact, the previous (unsuccessful)

attempts to deny gay rights in Oregon failed only because of higher turnout in the cities.

During the first such attempt, the infamous Measure 9, put forth by Lon Mabon and his evil minions, I was sure it was going to pass, because I lived in a small town, and there were Yes on 9 signs all over the place. ("Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay..." frequently came to mind as I spent my seven long years in that timber-dependent town.)

I was surprised and delighted when votes from Portland and the university towns defeated it. It was characteristic of Portland to allow gay marriage, but it was also characteristic of the small towns and suburbs to hate anything that Portland did.

[sandnsea]

37. Oregon supports gay rights, marriage is different

Oregon will probably pass a civil unions, gay rights measure this session. Marriage is just different to people. We can wait another 20 years and hope minds change, or we can move forward with protection, not perfection.

[treestar]

38. He is wrong to generalize about all religious people

And he would complain about generalizations made about gay people.

There are good religious people, too, and some of them are gay.

Just reverse freeperishness, IMO. Broad, stereotypical ideas about people based on group identity, sort of like saying all the Muslims want to kill us or all the Democrats support the terrorists. No allowance for individual minds.

[Exiled in America]

41. Very well said. Too bad so few listen.

[Bluebear]

44. He said religion, he never said anything about "religious people"

Just to be accurate. He said religion encourages hatred of gays. Can you refute that?

[Crandor]

53. Yes, religious people are more likely to hate gays

and according to Elton John, this means we should ban religion.

Black people are more likely to commit crimes. Does this mean we should ban black skin?

[Bluebear]

54. "Black people are more likely to commit crimes." Why? Genetics?

Do tell.

[Crandor]

57. Not genetics - which is precisely my point

Most people have moved past the pseudo-scientific idea that racial inequity is caused by race itself. Elton John apparently wants to revert to that mode of thinking by blaming religion for societal ills, when in reality religion is only the way that gay bashers justify their views. I've seen plenty of atheists who consider homosexuality an abomination, though they are forced to resort to other lines of argument eg "it isn't natural", etc.

[Bluebear]

58. So. You really believe that John actually wants to ban religion do you?

By the way, which atheists think homosexuality is an "abomination"? Why would they use that religiously charged word? And did you ask them for their faith when discussing it?

[Crandor]

62. He flat out said he wanted to ban it

So are you saying he's a liar? Either way it doesn't make him look too good...

And no I have not seen atheists use the word "abomination", I was paraphrasing. I don't keep track of every whacko I encounter.

[Bluebear]

66. No, I'm saying that you don't seem to recognize nuance.

The exact quote:

I think religion has always tried to turn hatred toward gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays. But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion. From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate." John also criticized religious leaders for failing to do anything about conflicts around the world. "Why aren't they having a conclave? Why aren't they coming together?"

Does this really sound like he is championing the stance that we should ban religion? Or that he is starting a campaign to end religion?

[Crandor]

69. Yes, he said he would ban it.

If Pat Robertson said he wanted to ban atheism completely, would you be defending him and saying he didn't really mean it?

[Bluebear]

70. OK I'm sorry, you see your world in black & white. Good luck. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. That's sort of like saying, "He hates the Democratic Party. He never

said anything about actual Democrats."

And not all religions encourage hatred of gays. When I was growing up as a liberal Lutheran preacher's kid, I never heard a thing about homosexuality, and when the gay rights movement began, you saw a definite split within the mainstream churches, with most saying, "It's not how I was brought up, but I guess we can live with that" and a vocal minority thinking, "Woohoo! Wedge issue!"

[Bluebear]

56. Not really, LL...

I grew up Lutheran too, and when during our human sexuality class in high school we asked to have someone from the local gay organization speak to us, the principal told us it wasn't necessary, because we were Lutherans and no Lutheran could be gay.

So the point is, religion (i.e. the Holy Books and the clerics who interpret them and lay down the law for the followers) is what John has the problem with, not necessarily the followers, some of whom obviously can think for themselves. The poster above said the Elton freeperishly said every religious person was like that, I don't think he said that at all.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Aha, Lutheran high school--you must have been

Missouri or Wisconsin Synod, which is kind of like being a high church fundamentalist. I grew up LCA (now known as ELCA), and I'm now an Episcopalian.

[Bluebear]

63. Bullseye. Misery Synod.

As I called it :)

No wonder it didn't "take" lol.

[carlydenise]

76. I also read that Elton said that Brian Wilson should be elected president

he would get my vote
Carly