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This Is Not About Impeachment-This Is About Civic Responsibility

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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 03:52 PM
Original message
This Is Not About Impeachment-This Is About Civic Responsibility
Impeachment is a Civic Responsibility
by RenaRF
Sat Nov 18, 2006

Richard Dreyfus ........... in his appearance on Real Time with Bill Maher.


MAHER: And you think he should be impeached? I mean, what would that get you? Cheney as President?

DREYFUS: The two reasons that one would argue against impeachment are the Vice President and the Democratic Congress. But I'm not in favor of impeachment. I am in favor of the process. And I believe that unless the society stands against certain things, they will have endorsed certain things. Like torture, leaving the Geneva Convention...

MAHER: Right. That is well said.

DREYFUS: ...and lying to the Congress about the reasons for war. And once the Republicans are placed in the position of having to endorse torture, you've got a bad problem on your hands. And we do not realize that this is not about impeachment - it's about the other branches of the government doing their duty so that you don't hand off to a liberal or a conservative - the President - swollen powers when no one ever turns power away. No one ever says "oh no thank you - we're not going to use that".

And so whoever gets to be President will use the power handed to this President. And we will rue that day unless we stand in some way against that,even in a minority report. Even if we... if you lose an impeachment hearing - whoever "we" are - then at least you have a body that says we stand against these things. And unless you do that, then you're for them.

more at:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/18/13342/148
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. EXACTLY - and what happens when Democrats choose to let BushInc off the hook?
The entire nation and the world is STUCK with the consequences, and those Dems who allow the coverup become COMPLICIT.

Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!
By Robert Parry
(First Posted May 11, 2006)

Editor's Note: With the Democratic victories in the House and Senate, there is finally the opportunity to demand answers from the Bush administration about important questions, ranging from Dick Cheney's secret energy policies to George W. Bush's Iraq War deceptions. But the Democrats are sure to be tempted to put the goal of "bipartisanship" ahead of the imperative for truth.

Democrats, being Democrats, always want to put governance, such as enacting legislation and building coalitions, ahead of oversight, which often involves confrontation and hard feelings. Democrats have a difficult time understanding why facts about past events matter when there are problems in the present and challenges in the future.

Given that proclivity, we are re-posting a story from last May that examined why President Bill Clinton and the last Democratic congressional majority (in 1993-94) shied away from a fight over key historical scandals from the Reagan-Bush-I years -- and the high price the Democrats paid for that decision:

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.'

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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thank you blm
I am sick and tired of NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING...

If we do NOT stand against the atrocities, we stand with them GODAMMIT!!!!!!!!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Hear, hear!
Edited on Sat Nov-18-06 04:58 PM by calimary
Let the investigations - WITH subpoena power, muscle, AND teeth, begin. I suspect that road will lead us DIRECTLY to IMPEACHMENT. And it IS something we HAVE TO do. Unless we're really okay with flouting the law, rogue leaders whose foul deeds remain unchecked, and no consequences for their actions. The biggest overriding point of the whole Nixon/Watergate era, and he wasn't even impeached - he bailed before its certainty caught up with him - was that NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. That statement HAS TO be made again, here and now (well, okay, okay, as of January). It just has to. Either you're for justice and accountability OR YOU'RE NOT. And even today, it still holds. NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. Wartime OR peacetime. NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. EVER.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. I"m with you, Kpete! GODDAMMIT TO HELL!!
Edited on Sat Nov-18-06 06:06 PM by bobbolink
It's like there's no line, no principles, no standards at all.

What the hell do we stand for???

Thanks... I really needed to hear someone else say this!

edit... sunny gun... sumbuddy gave me a red banner!

Where'd that come from???

Thanks, whomever you are!! :hug: :toast: :hug:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, it's up to US to spread the truth around wherever we can.
Parry is allowing his article from consortiumnews to be reposted IN FULL for whoever chooses to do so to help fight the good fight for this nation;s incredibly fragile DEMOCRACY.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yup, and I'm doing that--with a vengeance! I just posted in another thread
that I'm printing out and giving out H2OMan's excellent essay on impeachment, and I'm also making disks of various issues for church libraries.

And, if I have to tie people down to get them to watch, then that's what I'll do. :evilgrin:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. We haven't even taken control of Congress yet
Do you really think people like Conyers and Feingold are just going to sit around on their hands this time?

Most of us around here have too much evidence right on our own harddrives for the Bush cabal to avoid being indicted in the next few months.

There are at least 4 major investigation that are ongoing and when the indictments start coming down, it's going to be like a tsunami hit this country.



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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Further proof that we are in Year 26 of the Reagan Reign
"Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress."

<>

"Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

"Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

"Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth."

So it's "truth as an expendable trade-off" vs. "civic responsibility." And the 2008 election will be the Corporatists (Clinton, etc.) vs. the Populists.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And why they are targetting any anti-corruption, open government Democrat
for takedown - but, I think Dean staying put at DNC will put a bit of a monkeywrench in their works for 2008.

No more COVERUP Democrats for president - this country's fragile democracy CANNOT AFFORD IT.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. and why we need more than "at least a chance of being an informed electorate."
:thumbsup:


How did the American public swallow being told "Ollie North is a HERO!!1"? :wtf: I'd really like to know.





:hi: blm
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. then at least you have a body that says we stand against these things/nt
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. "No" to impeachment is the same as "No" to prosecuting any crime.
As the Republicans told us over and over and over and over -- we don't WANT to impeach the president, we HAVE to. Our oath to protect the Constitution REQUIRES it -- no matter what happens to us politically.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Absolutely! And proving that it's only the 'little folk' who will get prosecuted!
Continually watching the big thugs go free does something to the psyche of the body politic, and it ain't healthy.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-19-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. GOPs KNOW Democrats are 'soft on crime' because they know what BushInc gets away
with and has been getting away with since 1993.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. As long as anyone in government is above the law
Edited on Sat Nov-18-06 04:08 PM by mmonk
and as long there is no real check (by a process) rather than an opposing party, we are not truely a free democratic republic. We're just choosing rulers. Some countries that aren't really free have elections.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-19-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. Exactly - it's a faux democracy run by the same fascists.
And THAT is what the frauds of both parties fear - exposure that true SUNSHINE would give them.
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. Loved the show last night
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R
:kick:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yup. Time for Generations BB, X, Y & Z to relearn "Civic Responsibility"
:kick:
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G_Leo_Criley Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. K & R n/t
:kick:

glc
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. What John Dean said about impeachment of Bush:
http://www.truthdig.com/interview/item/20060912_john_dean_impeachment_president/

"Q: If the Democrats retake control of the House in November, do you think John Conyers will press for impeachment right out of the gate? Or do you think he and his ilk will seek to hold hearings to build more public support for impeachment? Or will we see something else?

A: Congressman John Conyers, who would become chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, is a seasoned and savvy professional. He is very aware that when the Republicans controlled the House and Judiciary Committee, they ran the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton like a kangaroo court. They embarrassed themselves, and shamed the committee and House of Representatives. John Conyers will not make that mistake. He sat on the Nixon Impeachment Inquiry, which moved a step at a time, slowly gathering bipartisan support based on the facts. The great difficulty with an impeachment proceeding against President Bush (or any other officials of his administration) is that unlike either the Nixon or Clinton proceeding, there is no special prosecutor (or independent counsel) currently conducting an investigation that the House Judiciary Committee can rely on – as occurred with both Nixon and Clinton. The House Judiciary Committee would be forced to start from scratch, hiring investigators and legal staff, and then commencing an investigation against a presidency that has made stonewalling into an art form – and more than likely would fight the committee for every tidbit of information. In fact, unless there is a dramatic change in public attitude – the latest poll on the subject I have seen was an earlier September 2006 CNN Poll showing 69 percent of American opposed impeaching Bush – it will be the first responsibility of any impeachment undertaking to educate the public and Congress as to the need for impeachment. Without doing that, and finding bipartisan support for the undertaking, it would be the same sort of sham proceedings that the GOP undertook with Clinton."

Note that Dean said: "...it will be the first responsibility of any impeachment undertaking to educate the public and Congress as to the need for impeachment. Without doing that, and finding bipartisan support for the undertaking, it would be the same sort of sham proceedings that the GOP undertook with Clinton." Many appear as if their heads will explode if they do not get impeachment immediately in spite of the fact that both Pelosi and Conyers have agreed it is off the table. Many appear to want impeachment done immediately rather than having it done right and done well. Also, my guess is that John Dean might know at least as much about impeachment as Richard Drefuss. I'll put my money on Dean with this one rather than the apoplectic amateur political armchair quarterbacks because he seems more level-headed about it.

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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. "to petition the government for a redress of grievances" Our
Civic Responsibility, and our Constitutional Right! Amendment I of the U.S. Constitution.
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. as always,
you are both WISE AND ANGRY and I thank you for that...kp
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hey kpete! Not wise as much as angry, but I'm stuck with
the name for now! I read your article before I read this one on impeachment. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2749557&mesg_id=2749557
It's quite good, if you haven't read it yet. I've been off DU for a bit; working long hours. I've missed this addiction!

:hi:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-19-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. I wonder why establishment Dems are discouraging the application of our RIGHTS?
Especially on something that would ENSURE and preserve our democracy.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Isn't there a law that makes you guilty if you do not stop a crime if you have the opportunity?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-19-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. That's a great point.
And why I am hard on Clinton when he had access to the documentation of BushInc's crimes back when he took office and chose to not pursue any of the outstanding matters - matters that LED to Bush2 takeover, LED to the murders of so many innocent citizens on 9-11, and LED into this Iraq war.
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dapper Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'm in favor of Due Process
As much as Bush has been a failure in life, he has been a failure as president. It's just not his failings, it's his actions. If not impeachment, he needs to be punished for his crimes.

Dapper
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. .
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-19-06 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
30. I think alot of people are talking right past each other on this issue.
I think most people *want* to see GW Bush impeached. But announcing an intention to impeach at this time would be putting the cart before the horse. The "process" Mr. Dreyfus refers to includes investigations- and those need to be done first to establish legitimacy.

If our representatives hold limp hearings and then fail to follow up, I'll be very angry. The problem here is that the right path (as I see it) and the wrong path look exactly the same at the start.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. True - impeachment is a sentence you impose AFTER the crimes aie established.
People do make the mistake of calling for impeachment before the crimes have been viewed by the lawmakers and aired openly for the public.
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