On Vietnam -- "News flash George. WE LOST!"

[understandinglife]

<clip>

Mr. President. We fought in Vietnam for more than twelve years. More than two million U.S. soldiers fought there. Almost 57,000 American soldiers died and several hundred thousand were wounded. We trained hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese troops, we killed almost one million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong, we dropped more explosives on Vietnam then we used during World War II, and we defolitated significant portions of Vietnam's rain forest.

And what did we achieve in the end? The United States fled the South Vietnamese capital, Saigon, to escape the invading North Vietnamese Army. North Vietnam "freed" the South from yankee imperialists and set about "reeducating" the South Vietnamese. News flash George. WE LOST!

So, what lesson are we to draw from all of this? Are you arguing that if we had stuck it out in Vietnam and spilled the blood of another 50,000 Americans and one million Vietnamese that things would be better today in Vietnam? Mr. President, that is bullshit.

The lesson of Vietnam for our policy in Iraq is that we should not waste the blood or limb of one more American soldier without a clear vision and plan of what we are trying to achieve. Most of the violence we face today is from indigenous Iraqis who see us as occupiers. The insurgents may not agree among themselves what the future of Iraq should be politically, but they are united in expelling us from the country.

Thank you, Larry.

Bob

Oh, and, one more little message, Georgie ....

News flash bubble boy -- YOU AND YOUR NEOCONSTER BUDDIES ARE GOING TO JAIL.

[Virginia Dare]

1. I'm surprised they didn't drag out the...

"Mission Accomplished" sign again...:eyes:

[understandinglife]

4. ROFL!!! Yeap. They could have hung it here ....

:thumbsup:

[understandinglife]

2. HANOI: BUSH EMERGES FOM HOTEL FOR ONE 15 MINUTE EVENT...

What A Jerk ....


BE AMERICA. ---

[sandnsea]

3. What is wrong with him??

That makes me so mad. He isn't at any greater risk of harm than any other American anywhere in the country. We go ahead and travel anyway. I couldn't imagine being in Vietnam and not wanting to visit all the temples and villages and whatnot. I don't understand the complete lack of interest in anything historic or cultural at all. God, go fishing for chrissake, SOMETHING. God I hate him.

America would probably get behind - RESIGN NOW. Put Olympia Snowe in charge for two years.

[ToolTex]

5. It is easy to understand why even Babs hates him!

n/t

[ChiciB1]

6. Kudos To You For This Thread... I Don't Know Your Age But This

information should be made into a half time advertisement at EVERY sports game! I'm no shrew, but "white men" you are missing "reality" here! Just ask the question... "who runs this country?" However, please don't start carping, I'm a white female who has married to a white male who was born in Tampa, FL! Good "ole" southern boy, he passes the test politically. I met him when I was 14 and 40 years later we are still together. But white men have been in charge here for a long time, and it'
Most assuredly, there are millions of fantastic white men, they just aren't using their voice to ROAR! I as a woman want to really ROAR, but even with our Liberation find it difficult at times to make others understand the meaning of equality!"

GYST!!!

[ChiciB1]

7. I Have No Idea What Those Lines Are All About... And Some Of

my post is missing.

[understandinglife]

9. If you type any text, preceeded by a bracket s bracket, ...

... you get something that looks like this ...

By the way, I'm 59 and am one of those white males who actually has a clue (and had one when I led a demonstration against the Vietnam War in San Antonio TX in 1967).

Peace,
Bob

[ChiciB1]

11. I Think I Love You... I Lived In Texas In 1967... Ft. Hood To Be

exact! Army brat and militarily ingrained. I do know you exist and thank you... but you do see my point don't you??

[understandinglife]

13. Yes.

Thank you.


Peace.

[ChiciB1]

14. We Need MORE Of You... Thank You... n/t

[aquart]

8. And to this day I have no idea why we were there. None.

[understandinglife]

12. Arrogance. Ignorance. Avarice.

I had the privilege to meet and talk to Bernard Fall in 1966. He originally thought that American presence in Vietnam was essential to stop the spread of Communism in Asia. However, he also knew Ho Chi Minh and actually listened to what Ho was telling him - to paraphrase, "I kicked French butt with sticks and stones, now I've got the Soviets and Chinese supplying me with all kinds of weapons - you will lose because time and the Vietnamese people are on my side."

Through the early 60's, Bernard Fall began to realize that stopping Communism and supporting the corrupt, American puppet Diem, were mutually exclusive.

In fact, had America dealt directly with Ho, as Fall urged, repeatedly, it would not have become the second Western nation to get its butt kicked by him, and thousands of Americans and more than a million Vietnamese would have not been slaughtered.

Arrogance. Ignorance. Avarice - the hallmarks of American foreign policy with few exceptions since 1945.

Think we might take a different approach to Cuba, Venezula, North Korea, Iran, .... - well, yes, that would mean that "We the People ..." would only hire and pay salaries to our government employees (aka Pres., VP, Sen, Reps, etc.) capable of basic skills like -- THINK, LEARN from history, RESPECT THE LAW, ... you know, basics like that.



BE AMERICA. ---

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. I suppose that depends on the reason you think we were there

I always felt our real reason for going to war was to sidetrack democracy in Vietnam, and quell their independent socialist development once and for all. If that's true, then they won. :shrug:

[understandinglife]

15. Direct link to Larry's blog post: ... be sure to check the comments.

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/11/someone_tell_bu.html


BE AMERICA. ---

[jedr]

16. 58,479...adverage age ...20 yrs old.........

Think what the world lost in that number. For sure some of the best and brightest minds of the time; and some who would be little more than average, and some that never would be anything. But perhaps the greatest President that we ever would have known would be in that number Who knows? That's what I learned form Vietnam! Needless slaughter! :shrug:

[understandinglife]

18. "That's what I learned form Vietnam! Needless slaughter!" - Precisely.

:thumbsup:

Thank you,
Bob


BE AMERICA. ---

[DemReadingDU]

19. and in Iraq - needless slaughter

approaching 3000 American troops dead
many more thousands of Iraqis dead
and for what?

[understandinglife]

17. "Tale Told By An Idiot"

<clip>

I understand that he has also held communist Vietnam up as an example of what Iraq may become "if we do not quit." Has he missed the fact that there is no real freedom in Vietnam now? Has he missed the fact that, having deprived the peoples of Vietnam of their religious rights, the government is now giving those rights back as privileges? Has he missed the fact that the non-Vietnamese Montagnard peoples of Vietnam are still treated as sub-human by the Vietnamese and their government? Has he missed that?

The Viet Minh would easily have unified Vietnam in 1954-55 after the defeat of the French. They had defeated all their native competitors. Only the growing political and then military intervention of the United States prevented that until 1975. Unity was not a problem in Vietnam. The government that Bush seems to admire had no serious problem in "bringing the country together" after we left.

Maybe we should get out of the way so that another "unity" government that Bush can praise can take over in Iraq.

Link: http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/11/tale_told_by_an.html

Bu$h has been spinning so fast for so long, that I think his one most assuredly successful plea to all his war crimes, violations of the US Constitution, and whatever ... is ... "Judge, I'm brain dead."