The Modern Draft -- Yes, we need it, but NOT just military

[Dems2002]

I do not want the Democratic Party to be demonized as the Draft Party, but facts are facts -- WE NEED A DRAFT. NOT because the military cannot recruit, but because WAR coverage should NOT be 'Shock and Awe' and the media SHOULD NOT be allowed to ignore anti-war sentiment.

Had we had a draft, the Iraq war would not have happened. The Middle Class would not have allowed it.

Class warfare is alive and well in America. A draft will bring the masses together again.

BUT -- We do not and should not have a purely military draft. That is not what we need. Our military does not need all of the bodies and a lottery disproportionately affects the poor...As was shown in The Vietnam, or 'A Working Class War.'

We need to DRAFT everyone, male and female between the ages of 18-35 --- (And I fall into that age group)

We need a 3 prong draft -- Americorp, Peace Corp and the Military...

Imagine -- With Americorp we begin to fix our crumbling infrastructure throughout the country -- We build houses, clean up inner cities, build bridges and do the jobs that the Works Projects did under FDR.

The Peace Corp is expanded to what it should be -- Finally, the face of the American abroad is not just the military face, but the face of Peace, as we dig wells, immunize citizenry and promote democracy, while educating our youth about the depths of poverty around the world.

And the Military -- No longer will recruiters scour the poor and the working class families for people who think they have no other options or are seduced by the idea of blowing things up (including themselves and other people)

Our military will be more reflective of our population, and our citizenry will be educated as to the goings on of our military like never before. It will be difficult to operate in secret with the entire country looking over their shoulders. Stories of our military families will be daily news, as we all look on for news of our friends, families and school mates.

I only know one person who served in Iraq. My next door neighbor who I used to baby sit. Most of my friends know nobody. (I was born working class, but have clawed my way into the precarious middle, with friends who have always been so ensconced, and much more clueless than even I.)

The Pay for this is simple -- Food, Housing, and minimum wage for the 18-year-olds, PLUS 1 full year of college script per year served -- What is college script? Simple, it's not $12,000 of college aide -- It's college tuition for ANY university in the country. OR, if you enter after college, you get $12,000 a year AND a special home loan ala the returning WWII veterans.

We need to mix the classes again. Reality is no longer real. Too many people have too much and are ignorant of those who have too little.

This is what should be done.

Do I believe it's going to happen? No...At least not yet. But it should

Best,

Dems

[musette_sf]

1. K&R

:kick:

[Dems Will Win]

70. THIS THREAD IS MISGUIDED -- READ THIS INSTEAD

TOP 5 DRAFT MYTHS DEBUNKED.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767636

[musette_sf]

71. respectfully disagreeing n/t

and kicking this post again.

:kick:

[hedgehog]

2. I don't agree that everyone needs to give four years of their life.

We need first to figure out what our armed forces are for. Maintaining a standing army ready to re-fight WWII on two fronts is ridiculous. We has a small stand-by force in 1940 that was able to absorb and train huge numbers in order to fight WWII.

A healthy country doesn't need to forcibly seize four years of each citizen's life. Don't forget, a lot of what goes on in the military is indoctrination.

Having a national force rebuilding infrastructure sounds good, but it will put construction workers out of work! That's an idea that has to be thought through better.

I am in favor of offering some kind of national service that would last three months in the summer that would pay for each year's tuition. Years ago it was possible to pay for tuition at a state university by working a summer job. At minimum, kids should be able to do that now.

[acmejack]

4. Three whole months?

Thats what I call a commitment... The draft is two years, at any rate.

[Mythsaje]

3. While I think an argument can be made

for civil service on a large scale, I'm morally opposed to the notion of the State effectively stripping people of their free will for any amount of time.

[alarimer]

7. So am I

The draft is also a sure way for use to lose every election for a while. I will support no draft. We simply cannot get involved in a lot of foreign entanglements. The military should be for defensive purposes only and certainly not for wars WE start.

[bobbolink]

10. But it's OK for poor kids to have to do so?

[Mythsaje]

15. Hardly the point...

You don't get to hold a gun to my kid's head and say "YOU BETTER DO THIS."

[bobbolink]

16. Yes, it IS THE POINT.

And the drama about your kid is silly.

You aren't the only one to be considered. Others are dying for you and your kid.

[Mythsaje]

21. No, others are dying for a bunch of rich motherfuckers...

What you're talking about is forced servitude to the State under threat of LAW.

[bobbolink]

66. Yup, slavery is what I'm advocating. Just like all those slaves in Switzerland...

oh, wait....

[Hippo_Tron]

36. Nobody is pointing a gun at their head and saying they have to

And the solution to military service being one of the few opportunities for lower income people to get ahead is for the country to make a huge investment in scholarship grants, NOT to draft everyone into military service.

[Mythsaje]

38. I think universal education is a MUCH better option...

Then again, I can see offering guaranteed tuition as a way to promote (peaceful) civil service.

[Dems2002]

24. What does it mean to be an American?

Why is there so much love for 'The Greatest Generation' -- It was a time of shared sacrifice. I understand and maybe even agree with people morally opposed to forced servitude. But frankly, that's the only way to even the playing field. What's the difference between forcing kids to attend school?

As to the cost? Yes, employing all of these people would be expensive. But what isn't? And what might the savings be in the long rung? We are basically replacing the Halli burton's with the Government. Compare the costs of administering Medicare to the costs of For Profit Healthcare and you see the difference clearly.

And what would be the net result? What could be accomplished in our borders if we had millions of people employed building roads, highways, schools, houses, etc. etc...?

1. Since so much of what we need are skilled labor jobs, we would be teaching people how to perform them, which would grant them job skills should they choose NOT to attend college, or prefer to attend a trade school.

2. World-wide sentiment might be changed.

3. American attitudes might be broadened, as America began to meet the rest of the country and the world and found similarities as opposed to differences.


I understand that some will consider this an encroachment by the state to be fought in favor of...In favor of what exactly? What does it mean to be an American? What does an act of birth mean? Does it mean that we are allowed the benefits of a democratic state without any sacrifices? Or does it mean that we've learned, as we've watched the democratic state slowly erode, that in order for people to be active in society they must be engaged in the actions of government and not view it as something that does not concern us?

We are the government and the government is us...but too few of us know or understand what this truly means. 1 year, 2 years 3 or 4 years of one's life given over to forced public works may not be the best solution -- BUT it accomplishes the one thing that making such decisions voluntary does not...

IT forces all of the classes together -- AND THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN AMERICA. We are becoming a stratified society, with little interaction with people of different classes. We interact with people of different races much more frequently than those of different classes.

Mandatory service is the only way to force about something that 'White flight' and Suburbia and McMansions have taken away...

Dems

[Mythsaje]

30. So many points...

One of the reasons I oppose it is simply this... One is effectively advocating that our children be compelled, under threat of force (which is what law ultimately is, btw) to give up certain (formerly) inalienable rights for a specific amount of time in order to achieve what--de-stratification of society? A more universal fear/dislike of war? Improve America's infrastructure?

The funny thing is that I don't necessarily oppose the SAME thing using the "carrot" rather than the "stick." Rather than FORCING people into civil service, why not offer housing, food, and college tuition to those who join voluntarily? Pretty much what the military offers now, though they've already stripped some of the long-term benefits vets used to enjoy. But open a generalized "civil service" deal to MANY different functions--from infrastructure repair and ecological reclamation to medical assistance and public works.

I'm talking enticement rather than enforcement. Kinda a "New Deal" for a "New Age." As things stand now, with skyrocketing tuition rates and all, the children of middle income are being deprived a chance to attend college to an ever increasing extent.

We're seeing those who joined the National Guard being sent repeatedly into hazardous situations that have nothing to do with what they signed up for.

Of course, I realize that FORCING people to do it will garner more support from the "conservatives," which should really make some people stop and re-think their position on it. In my opinion.

[Dems2002]

32. That would be the more doable option for now

I agree that that is the option that is best in the short term, and could be extremely useful in giving people a means of going to college without crippling debt, which is what bugs me. (Still paying my student loans which were under $20,000...not a bad deal)

I am very concerned, though, about the class issue, which has really gotten ugly in the last 50-years, in the sense that the people at the top feel such a sense of entitlement and lack of desire to sacrifice, I want to FORCE these folks into mixing with us common folks a bit more...maybe that's unrealistic, but shared sacrifice builds so much...

Dems

[Mythsaje]

34. I think that no matter how you try to work it

the RICH will always find a way to avoid it. And then it will be the poor and the middle class who continue to take the brunt. And as far as I'm concerned, the poor and the middle class already have an awful lot in common...I'm just not sure they see it.

[Dems2002]

35. Which could be helpful as well

I think that the republicans have successfully separated the middle class from the poor...they see no similarities. Meanwhile, I've seen my family become stratified -- Some have become rich and others have become poor. The difference? My grandfather was electrocuted when his kids were little. He was disabled and lived on disability. None of my aunts or my father attended college. Meanwhile, the children of my grandfather's brothers did attend college, as did their kids. My 2nd cousin is a millionaire. However, my aunt and cousin lived on the streets with little help from the 'rich' side of the family.

Dems

[Mythsaje]

37. My uncle owns a successful electrical contracting company...

My cousins grew up skiing in the Alps. College was a given, though the youngest chose to follow in his father and grandfather's footsteps and became an electrician. Not like that hurt his father.

The funny thing is that my grandparents lived in a (relatively up-scale) trailer park on fixed incomes for as long as I could remember until they died.

Anything I get in life will be acquired by virtue of my own talents. And that's just the way it'll be.

[hedgehog]

41. Guess what - not everyone served in WWII

Despite the romantic notion that every platoon had a kid from Brooklyn, a Harvard under grad, a farm boy, an immigrant, etc a hell of a lot of guys got deferments as workers in vital industries or were not accepted for service because they were too unhealthy after growing up in the Depression. Talking to my mother-in-law who lived in an area with a lot of German families really opened my eyes to this a lot.

[hedgehog]

44. Stratification of society has a lot more to do with the stratification

of incomes than physical proximity. In my town, the kids at the high school come from families on welfare, families of illegal immigrants, families with two parents working low wage jobs, families wealthy enough to take several vacations a year. At the high school, some cliches or groups are based on personal interests: geeks, goths, nerds, skaters, jocks, etc. Others are based on income - poorer kids hanging with poorer kids, richer kids with richer kids. It all depends on what the kids value - their personal worth or their parent's bank book.

[Warpy]

5. Do you REALLY WANT TO GIVE A MADMAN A BIG ARMY????

Do you REALLY want young women to spend their SAFEST childbearing years in servitude?

Please THINK.

[acmejack]

How reactionary!

Didn't the OP say Peace Corps, infrastructure rebuilding, National service does not have to be military.

[Mythsaje]

22. You're STILL advocating forced servitude...

Real progressive of you.

[Warpy]

51. But it WILL BE

Every tinpot dictator who gets in will turn it military.

[endarkenment]

54. Shit doesn't have to taste bad either.

"National service does not have to be military" except that it will be and always has been.

yeah! lets give them 500,000 grunts to play war with! yeah!

brilliant.

[Dems2002]

31. It's not the size that matters

Please -- size isn't the issue, accountability is. We have a large enough army with large enough weapons to do quite a bit of damage. We also have an entire country of citizens oblivious to the sacrifices being made by this large army and the increasing desire to privatize more and more of the military. Why? Because a private army can function more in secret than a public army made up of our sons and daughters.

What does "SAFEST" Childbearing years mean? You want girls to have babies at 18-20? Frankly, I'd rather they attend college myself. I'm 31 and like most of my friends, just beginning to consider having children. That's life.

And YES, I do expect women to do everything that men do. I do believe that women should be drafted just like men...Come on, consider it 13th and 14th grade. As our nation has aged and adults are working into their late 60s and 70s, we need to extend childhood for our youth in order to keep jobs for the elderly...(Sad but true)

So, the government pays for your year abroad working in Africa...There doesn't have to be a one size fits all plan. You can go right after high school, you can go to college and go after college...

The minimum, basic requirement might be americorp in your hometown, a year's service that could be done like the reserves, a couple of weeks a year for a longer period of time.

Most high schools are requiring volunteer work in order to graduate. This takes it to the next level.

Dems

[hedgehog]

42. Maybe they wouldn't want to have a child at 18, but what if they did?

How about putting off children for 2 years of service, then four or six years of college, then a couple of years to get established? By now the woman in question is in her thirties and is past her peak fertility. The fact is, women have to hit the ground running these days if they want a chance to raise a family.

[Dems2002]

48. Give me a break

Give me a break -- This is the life of all of my female friends and myself. Frankly, none of us wanted to have kids in our 20s. Such is life in the great big city where my rent for a one bedroom apartment on the east side of Oakland costs more than 1 1/2 times minimum wage...forget about buying a house.

Dems

[BlackVelvet04]

6. Oh great....

yes, let's force people to be owned by the government.

Not no, but HELL NO.

[bobbolink]

12. Other, much more progressive countries, have a mandatory service.

Why are USians so much better than others?

Or, is it only poor folk who should be "owned by the government"?

It's a priviledge to live in a democracy, and we have responsiblity as well as the benefits.

EVERYONE!

[hedgehog]

43. Which other progressive countries?

[bobbolink]

62. Ever heard of Switzerland?

You know.. that country that is always in a war..?

Oh wait... they've managed to stay out of wars, while all their men are required to be in the service...

Hmmmmm.....

[BlackVelvet04]

45. I don't care what other countries do.....

I don't poll other countries to determine what my opinion will be.

I pay my taxes....that fulfills my responsibility for the privilege of living in a democracy. What little bit of democracy is left.

I refuse to feed the war machine by calling for a draft.

[bobbolink]

63. "I don't poll other countries to determine what my opinion will be."

Hmmmm, wasn't there a pretzeldent who said that once?

[BlackVelvet04]

64. I don't know, was there? If you are

insinuating that bush said it, oh well. I don't hang on his every word so I wouldn't know.

I don't take a poll of ANYONE to determine what my opinion should be.

[bobbolink]

65. Neither does he.

And as a result, he's having a really good time in Indonesia.

[BlackVelvet04]

67. How stupid.

I'm not invading countries, I'm sharing an opinion.

[bobbolink]

75. Changing the content, not the process.

Stupid back atcha. :crazy:

[Aviation Pro]

8. As a member of my county's Selective Service Board....

...I can tell you that there are several groups which are subject to a draft. In addition to the military - for combat arms only - medical professionals are subject to a draft during times of medical crisis (think a pandemic). That being said, those who apply for an exception under the Selective Service's guidelines could wind up with an alternate service instead of military service.

[acmejack]

11. Forget it, AP.

People here pay lip service to the patriotism gig. When the rubber meets the road, apparently the republiclowns are right about the majority of us here.

[acmejack]

9. Obviously all that stuff is not for people like you either, huh?

Just who is National service for? Perhaps we need to be like the Romans were with the vote.

[HereSince1628]

13. Ah, maybe you should do the numbers....

Do you have any idea on how many people you are talking about in those age groups?

Check it out http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/usinterimproj/natprojtab02a.pdf

You are talking about FORCING into service TENS OF MILLIONS of people! Oh that sure would be an advance of liberty!

[HereSince1628]

18. Now that you've thought about that, think of what just the payroll burden would be

Say mimimum wage of 6 dollars to make the math easy (and since that doesn't include the cost of housing and food of the conscripts that's an underestimate), times 50 weeks of 40 hours or a standard 2000 hour work year...that's 12K per unvolunteer. Now Multiply 12,000 times however many million souls you think should be in service every year...

Just WHO would be paying taxes to make that possible? Does this idea look just a bit bad yet?

[951-Riverside]

14. If I'm ever forced to sign up I'm coming to the army center with a joint in hand and...

a pink feather boa around my neck. :D

[rolleitreks]

17. Over my dead body. The State has no claim to my time. n/t

[TahitiNut]

20. In a democracy, you ARE 'the state.'

Abandonment of that is the death of a democracy. Suffering under the delusion that voting is enough to sustain a democracy is akin to the notion that voting for players in the All-Star game makes you a baseball player.

[Mythsaje]

23. Yeah, even though it's clear that the "State"

is actually run by the rich oligarchs...but at least you have the right to be forced into servitude for a set period of time for the right to be controlled by the oligarchs.

[Fovea]

39. In some ways

these service mechanisms expose the privileged to the working class by the commonality of service.

This burden of service is the performance by which the societies needs are met. I think that service to your nation/world is what makes the social contract a contract, its reciprocity.

[Mythsaje]

40. I'm not sure it IS reciprocal...

I dare say I don't receive the same representation in Congress that the Corporations do. Speaking locally, Boeing and Microsoft have a LOT more leverage than someone in my position does.

[Fovea]

55. vote blue

and hold your reps feet to the fire. Ryun wasn't good for SE Kansas OR Boeing in the long run.
If government is not the honest broker of your input or your needs, you know what the constitution says about that.

[rolleitreks]

28. Nonsense.

I'm a little tiny eeny-weeny part of State and will contribute to its functioning in ways of my choosing.

[TahitiNut]

19. I agree. Add the Public Health Service to the services.

I see a program with varying terms of service - longer in the non-military organizations. I also see a common initial training - shorter than the current military Basic Training, somewhat less militaristic but still incorporating training in the use of small arms.

[Dems2002]

25. Agreed

I agree that the Public Health Service would be a great addition -- Add it!

Dems

[H2O Man]

26. You first. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

27. and get rid of Haliburton and KBR...

let the services provide their OWN service.

also-
I am in complete agreement that there should be mandatory national service- for a term of 2-3 years...HOWEVER- those joining the MILITARY option should have either a shorter committment period, or a higher rate of education dollars at the end.
after all- the military will always be the prong that carries the greatest risk to life and limb.

[dev]

29. You've got the top post....

for stupid here:

http://dudratreview.blogspot.com/

[Dems2002]

33. LOL -- Good luck with that

Wow, you've got your own website --Congrats -- hope you get some readers...

Dems

[hedgehog]

46. My children come from a long line of draft dodgers

Both my husband and I have immigrant ancestors who beat feet for America to avoid forced service in various armies. If the US is forced into a war it can not avoid, let people decide one by one whether they are willing to step forward. If the army is too small, then get out of the war. That's the most basic form of democracy I can think of.

Our Declaration of Independence states that each of us has the unalienable right to life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Show me how forced national servitude allows for any of those rights!

The current ploy to reintroduce the draft is a move to force all the chicken hawks to face up to the cost of war. It is not meant as a first step to enlarging a permanent standing army!

[Dems2002]

49. We'll all just sit back and enjoy watching the lions tear apart the Christians

That does seem to be a bit of the attitude. It's obvious I'm not for forcing everyone into the military. That's definitely not the point.

What is the point, is a greater understanding of public service and shared sacrifice for the common good, something definitely missing from our national character at the moment.

Now, I'm for simply expanding The Peace Corp and Americorp, but personally, I think our country is close to broken and people need to be forced to pay attention to government, otherwise, our oligarchy will become permanent.

Dems

[jannyk]

47. Agree wholeheartedly K&R nt

[pdxmom]

50. I think that if anything were implemented, it should have to be phased

in. You can't just carve out a chunk of people aged 18-35 and make them suddenly change their life and plans at this point. My son would be just one example...he started as an apprentice machinist right out of high school and is now 21 and has found a position that will set him up for a lot of advancement and management track. He's doing extremely well for a 21 year-old. Making him give up what he's worked so hard for over the past three years would be wrong. As it would for anyone who has spent years positioning themselves and working hard to get where they are. Yes, it might be a "reserves" type situation, where they go for weekends and a couple weeks a year, but there are still a lot of employers out there who will not honor that and do penalize their employees (despite the law).

[iamthebandfanman]

52. ah gees

what in the crap are you guys talking about on here lately
sheesh
i leave for a while n dont post since the election and you guys starting talking about the draft being good ?

what ?

whats going on around here!
this is DU right ?

[endarkenment]

53. Civil War WWI WWI Korea Vietnam

none of these wars happened as there was a draft. History doomed repeat rinse sheep slaughter.

[rockymountaindem]

56. There was a draft at the outset of WWII, Korea and Vietnam

Just ask all the people in my family who were drafted during those times.

[TahitiNut]

58. The draft was actually activated PRIOR to our entry into WW2. 1940, iirc.

So much for another myth. Over 10 million draftees and over 6 million volunteers in WW2 - so much for the volunteerism myth.

[rockymountaindem]

61. Exactly n/t

[EdwardM]

57. As an individualist, I am against any sort of draft.

Including mandatory community service or the like. I don't like giving the government the power to tell people what to do. I would only support a draft if it was absolutely necessary. And right now, it is not.

[musette_sf]

72. do you mean "individualist"

or libertarian?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. I'm close to being a pacifist, but after teaching in a college where

most of the students were spoiled suburbanites who thought that hard luck meant having two finals on the same day, I really wish there were a way to make everyone have a taste of how the other half lives.

I come from a line of schoolteachers and preachers, but the three years I spent working temp (mostly industrial temp, since I had poor secretarial skills) after graduate school were just as educational in their own way as my academic work.

Over the years, I had two students who were spoiled brats even by the generous standards of that student body. Both of them dropped out to join the Marines. Now I think that the U.S. military is WAY over-valued and given much more credit for "defending freedom" than it really deserves and that it has been used and is being used for some highly dishonorable purposes. However, when one has a student who manages to be both flaky and surly, it is great fun to imagine that student meeting up with a Marine drill instructor.

[Cleita]

69. Remember when in California the

universities were tuition free to California residents, those who met the requirements and kept their grades up? These colleges were not that easy to get into or stay in. Only the best students made the grade, but they could be from any economic class. Many, who couldn't make the cut had to go to community college or private colleges instead.

However, when they started to charge tuition, thanks to budget cuts started in the Reagan governorship, the requirements were relaxed and you didn't have to keep such a high grade point average because the universties and colleges found themselves having to recruit students from those who could pay, not those who were academically the cream of the crop.

Sure, eventually, student loans were offered, but the standards never came back. So this is why you have a bunch of whiney middle-class kids going to college now and probably smarter kids, denied an education, going into the military.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. If I were running the world of higher education, students would have

to prove that they had some sort of intellectual interest, even to apply. That intellectual interest could be anything--astronomy, poetry, history, chemistry, psychology, foreign languages--but they'd have to demonstrate that they had something they read about, studied, and perhaps participated in beyond the required school curriculum.

Such students would be admitted free, regardless of income, with a living stipend.

Others would go to schools aimed at preparation for specific jobs, with curricula of one to three years, or would sign up for apprenticeships or internships that provided on-the-job training. There is no need for a four-year degree in Personnel Management or Corporate Health and Fitness or Law Enforcement, for goodness sake.

Most of this training would be done by industry associations.

[Beelzebud]

60. Service earns you citizenship, and only citizens can vote.

Is that the sort of fascist society we're heading to?

[Cleita]

68. The best post on this yet.

Congratulations

:thumbsup:

[Jed Dilligan]

74. Show me the budget

There are 27 million 18-24 year olds in the US as of census 2000. If you're talking universal national service that's over $270,000,000,000 just in minimum wage. Add room and board and you're talking at least 500 billion dollars. ANNUALLY. Just to have these kids in national service.

Now, imagine spending that 500 billion hiring people at market rate who already have skills and actually want to do the work for all of the causes you list. What do you think will net a better result?

Universal service would be more like prison than some inspiring peace corps dream... I guess it would be better than the universal prison model we're heading towards, but I'm against depriving the individual of liberty no matter what. If a cause is worthy people will step up, especially if we as a nation are willing to pay them decently.