For Christ's sake! The UCLA students didn't need to jump the cops! They had a cell phone and YouTube

[Nikki Stone1]

For all those ragging on the UCLA students for not rushing the cops, there is more than one way to resist authority. And the UCLA students DID that. One, in particular, TAPED the damned thing and posted it on the internet for the whole damned world to see.

There was absolutely no need to physically rush the cops. Far, far more damage was done by putting the actions of these cops on the internet. Instead of being one physical brawl in which it might be hard to tell who started what, we have a video that CLEARLY shows the brutality of the cops (tasering a guy and then demanding he "stand up" over and over again). We have the reactions of the students, the remarks of the cops.

During the Civil Rights movement, the most effective influence on the American public was the video coverage on the news of protestors being hosed, abused, beaten. Those videos still exist and are incredibly powerful. In order for people to do anything about injustice, they have to know it exists. Video really brings that home.

[MnFats]

1. and if they DID rush the cops, what tape do you suppose the TV networks...

...use round the clock for the next three days? Hint: it ain't gonna be the brutality.
"Mob attacks police officers as they try to do their job."
...ya can't win.

[Nikki Stone1]

4. Yes. That is why internet neutrality needs to be protected

It was the fact that video could be shot and put on the net that created this particular form of resistance. The
M$M would have reported things to the advantage of the police most likely.

[snot]

85. THANK YOU. nt

[blondeatlast]

44. Exactly. Those students acted admirably, IMHO. nt

[formercia]

2. I wonder if any of the 'cops' spent time in Iraq.

honing their skills on the locals.

[truedelphi]

66. I wonder that too n/t

[mistertrickster]

109. Well, let's not blame the soldiers for getting sent into a war zone.

They need our support. Soldiers don't do anything they are not told to do. Because if they do, their superiors are responsible for THAT too . . .

[Hekate]

3. Well said. I can't believe the stupid (tho mercifully few) comments about what the students...

...supposedly should have done. You are absolutely right about the truth they broadcast to the world.

Hekate

[Nikki Stone1]

5. Thanks. To me it's obvious that this is a great form of resistance

I love your handle, by the way.

[rockymountaindem]

10. Look at the thread where I posted

Evidently I'm a coward because I refuse to play a game I can't win.

[Nikki Stone1]

12. Hey, Rockymountaindem

I saw your posts. You are a student?

[rockymountaindem]

13. Yes. I'm a student, ask me anything! n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

20. If you are at UCLA, you are nearing the end of your quarter, yes?

I imagine that everyone at the library was already stressed out from term papers (due right before or right after Thanksgiving) and from upcoming exams.

[rockymountaindem]

23. Nope, I go to the University of Toronto

I don't think anybody is stressed. We've all been worn down by the demands of being a student for so long, stress turns into numbness. Right now I've got a pile of over a dozen books on my floor for one 10 page paper, not to mention journal articles and all the stuff for my seminar class. Oh, and grad school applications. You know, the ones that ask if you're a member of the criminal underclass and all ;)

I can't say that we feel much of anything these days. Although last night I went to a pub featuring 30% off everything in honor of their 30th anniversary. That was a nice diversion :toast:

As for the tasering, I don't think I'd ever see anything like that happen around here. The campus police aren't even allowed to carry nightsticks, only pepper spray. I've never seen things get confrontational like that, but I have seen one guy get hauled off (rather violently) for hitting a police officer, and I've seen someone nearly be arrested for taking a swing at a campus cop and missing (luckily for everyone). I've also been threatened on one occasion while minding the door at a party. But the bunch of drunk goofballs who were doing it were disuaded by 1) my promise to use all the wherewithall of a sober person against their drunk asses and 2) the fact that the police would be about two minutes away the moment they tried anything against me in plain view of the manager, who was right there. I'd call it a non-incident. The other things definately were, but I was only involved as a bystander while the police did their thing against people who were most definately threats to the rest of the partygoers. I was happy to see them dragged off. It made my job easier, that's for sure.

[Nikki Stone1]

27. Well altercations between cops and "drunken goofballs" seems about par for the course

I think what bothers those of us in and around college campuses is that the police reacted so violently because someone wouldn't show a school ID. (That is just unbelievable to me.) I am currently taking some grad courses and I couldn't imagine an incident so violent in the midst of our university's frantic and underlit computer room.

[Vinca]

6. What a difference a generation makes.

The cops wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds in the 1960's.

[Hekate]

8. Kent. State. Them guns has bullets. eom

[Nikki Stone1]

11. Did people rush the National Guard at Kent State?

?

[hedgehog]

48. It depends on who you ask.

The Guard felt threatened, but others have said that they misunderstood what was happening due to the odd slope that the two groups were standing on and also all the rumors flying about. There was also a lot of macho talk amongst some of the Guard about taking out the hippies.

James Michener wrote a very extensive report on Kent State that might be at your library.

[Nikki Stone1]

49. Thanks for this answer.

I'll have to look more extensively into this.

[Vinca]

88. For starters, as I recall, the National Guard was not supposed

to have live ammunition on that fateful day. It was a slaughter.

[Nikki Stone1]

99. I wonder who put out the information about the ammo

Both to the protesters (that the guard would not have ammunition) and the Guard itself.

[JVS]

125. I don't remember any guardsmen getting killed there

[Nikki Stone1]

9. And you wouldn't have had the technology to broadcast their evil in the 60s

on your own, without network intervention, instantaneously and worldwide.

When you have choices of resistance methods, non-violent is perferable--and taping is nonviolent.

[uppityperson]

7. How about surrounding the tasered student?

Yes, they would risk getting tasered themselves, but what about simply surrounding the taseree?

[Karenina]

15. I doubt that ever occurred to them.

We, observing the situation who have roots in the 60's don't comprehend the students' apparent "inaction." They reacted with the tools they had available and knew how to use. We EXPECTED that kind of shit from the "pigs." These kids have just been awakened to the reality that IT CAN HAPPEN HERE. Mostafa isn't Rodney King. He's a kid who was HIGHLY ANNOYED at being interrupted while studying. Many will identify.

[Nikki Stone1]

17. Even if it did, these kids were tired and not trained in that kind of resistance

And yes it needs training--not to react, not to let the cops get the best of you, not to get drawn into an altercation. And in the 60s there were ORGANIZERS of protests and training. Non-violent techniques did not come spontaneously out of nowhere.

[Karenina]

28. You're absolutely correct , NS.

We were SCHOOLED in those techniques. It is reported that Mostafa "went limp" when first accosted by the police. He was TRAINED to do that, just as I TRAINED my kids how to respond to any police encounter. This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around...

[Nikki Stone1]

32. You think this guy has some background in non-violent resistance then?

I somehow doubt the other kids do. I do think it is good to get schooled in non-violent techniques, especially if cops are going to be given more and more power to abuse people for minor infractions.

[Karenina]

34. If the reports are accurate

he KNEW to go limp the minute the cops laid a hand on him. That is a "learned" response.

[Nikki Stone1]

35. Interesting. Do we know anything else about the kid himself? NT

/

[Nikki Stone1]

42. shameless kick

:kick:

[tblue37]

86. He also started yelling loudly, because, as he later said,

he wanted to make sure there were witnesses to what was hapepning. Also, he said that the reason he didn't want to show ID in the first place is that he felt he was being singled out and harassed specifically because he looked Muslim.

[Nikki Stone1]

96. That makes sense, but it doesn't mean he was trained in non-violent resistance

Do you think he intended to cause a scene?

[Nikki Stone1]

16. That's a thought. The problem I have with that is

that these were tired students working in a computer lab on papers, assignments, etc. late at night. They were not trained protestors with daytime energy and ideals about a cause. In non-violent protest (like surrounding the victim by making a non-violence circle) training is very important. I remember being trained myself once for a protest and a lot of it involved learning how to stand, how to react (and not react) etc. Students not accustomed to non-violent protest, not trained, might actually be reactive to the cops and cause more problems for themselves and for the tasered student. It is hard to know which way it might turn out.

In general, a bunch of tired students, cramming to get papers done before the end of the quarter after 11pm in a computer lab, probably did the best they could in terms of letting the cops know that they were there and that they were against what the cops were doing. The BEST thing they could have done was what they did do: tape it and let the world know about these asshole cops.

[uppityperson]

19. They got an education and it would be interesting to see how they would

react next time. When you don't have training or experience in something like this, it takes you by suprise and you do the best you can. It would be interesting to see about next time and I do think that it is very important for people to know about this incident to prepare for another time.

[Nikki Stone1]

21. I agree, this will be interesting. A lot depends on how UC Regents handle this

The toadies at the top of the UC system are gutless. I assume they will try to pay this guy off and make it go away. There are just too many foreign and out of state students with too much money coming to UCLA to just let this pass. I imagine the Iranian community in LA (and there is a LARGE one on the West side) is pretty ticked off too.

What I would like to see is a criminal/Civil Rights case against the cops that gets taken to the Supreme Court.

If it all gets swept under the rug, I expect most kids to go back to business as usual, though a few will be more affected. On the other hand, if this case starts a national discussion about the unPATRIOTic Act and other police state laws, it might really energize protest at UCLA. (The fact that the kid yelled "Here is your Patriot Act" might lead this way.)

[uppityperson]

24. Good thing that this is online and spread across USA/world

lots of other students and people get to see this and think about it and for them, if something like this happens, they will be better prepared.

[Nikki Stone1]

31. Absolutely! There's nothing like exposure

And I'll bet you in composition classes across the country, profs will be assigning essays on this incident and police brutality. This can get students thinking about what they would do. At very least, it will encourage kids to take cell phones with video capability to start taping some of the crap that goes on.

[kster]

55. Agreed.. nt

[tblue37]

87. There was a "next time," in a sense,

because the way they reacted was to have a huge protest on campus the next day, wearing and carrying "I AM A STUDENT: DON'T TASER ME!" signs.

[Nikki Stone1]

98. I liked those posters. It really brought the point home.

Nobody sends their kid to college to have him or her tasered in the library by a campus cop.

[rman]

139. They would have had to displace the cops that had him surrounded

Not simple.

[Bonobo]

14. Didn't help the dude being tortured...

[Alexander]

18. Yes it did, he stands to be a very rich man.

The OP is correct - this was the best thing that could've happened, and since the cops were already taser-happy at kids just asking for badge numbers, any physical confrontation would've gotten ugly and Tabatabainejad wouldn't have such a solid case.

[Occulus]

63. I've changed my mind

All y'all are right. And, no one person stood up as a leader figure because no one person had to. They just whipped their cameras out and did it.

I was wrong.

[Nikki Stone1]

22. And the students could have made it worse for him by rushing the cops

I don't know for sure. It could have gone the other way. But there was a very real chance that the direct physical involvement of the students might have done more damage.

[Bonobo]

26. Can you respond to this thread question?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2759665&mesg_id=2759665

[Nikki Stone1]

29. You raise an interesting question

My years in LA and watching LAPD tactics makes me very wary of actually getting up in a cop's face and saying "I am recording this; cease and desist now!" While it might deflect the cop's energy from tasering someone, it might also cause the cop to arrest me on some trumped up charge and seize the cell phone or other taping equipment. Then, the suspect continues to be tasered, I get arrested, the evidence gets destroyed, and no one ever knows about the brutality their tax dollars are paying for. On the other hand, it might force the cop to lighten up on the taser since he is being watched and it might spare the victim.

Because it could go either way, and because there would be a real chance of losing valuable evidence, I might keep the taping quiet. The idea would be to have two people with cell phones videoing--one to challenge the cop and one to document.

[Bonobo]

36. I understand your point well, but I ask you to reconsider because...

Taping this clandestinely and then revealing on YouTube or whatever certainly may lead to winning a lawsuit or the like, but it certainly is not helpful in stopping a crime in progress (aka the relentless, punitive electrocution of a defenseless human).

Clearly jumping the police is not the first or even second option, but at some point (somewhere in the wide spectrum from overly rough handcuffing to face punching to broom stick anal ramming) one must step in to stop an act of evil that one is witnessing and whether the person is a policeman or not relevant if you are certain that the act is an act of evil.

So, announcing the presence of the camera as well as being forceful and specific about asserting a citizens civil rights (I myself cannot be specific though ;)) seems to be a very good alternative to just asking for a badge number. If the policeman did take the camera away, frankly that would further damn them and show their true stripes.

Did I make the case? Is videoing everything our best response to this kind of thing? I think so.

[Nikki Stone1]

37. If they take your camera away and continue to beat/taser the victim,

you've lost the evidence that could bring that victim justice and have not been able to help him or her in any way at the scene. That is my point: you want to be able to salvage something from the situation that can serve the ends of justice.

I am not opposed to someone letting a cop know he is being videoed, and I imagine there is a cop somewhere who will lighten up if he thinks he is being watched. But if a cop is willing to get violent over something like an ID (because the cop feels he is being disrespected or challenged), then chances are, your videoing of him will be also be taken as a form of disrespect or challenge, and he might not react as you would want him to react. There is no way of actually knowing, as a rule, how a cop will react or how far a police department will go to protect the cop.

I would always assume that letting a cop know he is being videoed will antagonize him more than anything else, unless I have some really good evidence otherwise.

The one thing I would remind you of is the power of a video to bring justice. Remember Rodney King--the victim got beaten up badly and someone filmed the cops beating him. The video didn't prevent King from getting hurt, but the video DID cause a major shakeup at LAPD which has certainly prevented some abuses from taking place. Daryl Gates, who seemed unshakeable from his position as police chief, despite the many reports of abuse and brutality (especially against minorities) was suddenly vulnerable and lost his position and the power he had built up over the years. The Christopher Commission was formed to deal with departmental and systemic problems, including racist and abusive practices. LAPD today is not the same organization that it was in 1991, when King was pulled over. Are there still problems? Yes. But the immunity that Gates and LAPD seemed to enjoy, regardless of what they did, is gone.

The King video, while not helping King at the time (though there was money later), did help some others not become victims in the future and provided some much needed oversight for the department.


This said, if there was a way to stop police brutality in progress and have a surviving tape, I'd be all for it. I just don't know that I would recommend someone with the sole camera at such a scene risk the loss of that camera by telling the cop he had it. Ideally, I'd have two people taping.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. What if he had died on the fourth tasering? n/t

[Karenina]

30. UCLA and UCPD would be in

MUCH DEEPER DOO-DOO than they already are...

[Nikki Stone1]

50. Yeah, it looks like there will be a hefty settlement as it is

And UCLA is going to have to do some major damage control

[Karenina]

52. Just checked some sites on this side of the pond

Woo-hoo, MAJOR DAMAGE CONTROL is right!!! Lots of Amis online calling Mostafa a terrorist, making really disgusting comments and lots of HORRIFIED Europeans...

[Nikki Stone1]

53. Oh good LORD! Really??

What the hell is wrong with those people!

[Nikki Stone1]

33. This taser issue is interesting,in part because the public has been told that the taser is nonlethal

This may have led to less intervention, or less urgency to intervene. IF students knew that the kid could have died on the 4th tasering, there might have been someone who would have tried to physically intervene. I can't say for sure, because these were tired kids untrained in non-violent resistance. But there might have been more panic about the taser if people thought it could actually kill someone.

[nini]

38. It's easy for them to sit behind their computer and say what they'd do

Put them in the situation and they'd probably do what the students did. Talk is just that ....talk.

[Nikki Stone1]

39. Some are hiding behind their computers but others have been in protests (and have been arrested)

For this latter group, there is some validity to their comments. My response to them is that a lot more overall good can be done by videoing a police abuse and broadcasting it over the net than by reacting physically at the scene. During the 1960s, it was the video of non violent protests, the video of Vietnam, the video on the (not as censored) evening news that moved a nation to change things about itself. That is real power. A few isolated incidents of rushing cops (without documentation) does not change things as much as video of the abuses. Visuals, placed on the net for worldwide consumption, are explosive weapons. Think of the Rodney King video.

[Zhade]

40. The internet may yet save the world.

It is, after all, in tune with reality's "well-known liberal bias".

:evilgrin:

Power to the e-people!

[Nikki Stone1]

41. Only if we keep net neutrality

We gotta really fight on this one

[Chimichurri]

43. Who's suggesting that? I haven't read anyone suggesting the

students rush anyone. Do you have a link so we can understand your point in the context to which you refer?

[Nikki Stone1]

46. There are a number of threads in which certain posters have bemoaned the lack of physical response

Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2756027&mesg_id=2756027

Let me look for some others

[Jcrowley]

51. could you point

specifically to where some in that thread suggest the students physicaly intervene. I think I saw one out of the ninety or so, maybe I missed another but it seems you missed the entire point of the discussion. Mostly there were alot of questions and examinations of the larger issues. Did you miss that?

There was no blaming of the students at all nor any advice given whatsoever. Patently false.

[Nikki Stone1]

56. Let's look at your thread

First: The title: Why Did The UCLA Students Stand By?

and the OP: A revisting of the old Milgram studies from the 1950s whose results were used to show that people are more easily led into abusive behavior by perceived authority figures-- in that case, white coated researchers. The implications of this study in the 1950s were seen as related to Hitler's regime and answered the question, How could good, ordinary Germans be led into abusing, killing and committing other unspeakable horrors against their fellow humans/citizens.



The combination of your title and OP indicates that you felt that the UCLA kids, by "standing by" (offering no resistance), were indicating that they, like Milgram's test subjects, were unable to resist fascism represented by the cops with tasers.


My goal in this thread was to point out that there WAS resistance. The UCLA kids didn't just walk away and they didn't join in the abuse. They argued with the cops, they asked for badge numbers, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, they taped the altercation and posted it on the net. These are not the acts of fascist stooges but of kids doing their best to resist unexpected police brutality at 11 pm at night, tired, overworked and in their school library. I thought they did an excellent job of both resisting and getting their message out to the world over the net.


Your post, with the misapplication of Milgram to the UCLA situation, implied that the UCLA kids should have done more. What more is the question. Some posters responded with the idea of physically intervening, and that can mean anything from standing in the way of the cops to rushing them. In the end, I put this thread up to defend the UCLA kids who used THEIR version of non-violent resistance to get their message out and show the abusers for what they were.

[Jcrowley]

60. You completely

missed the point.

Re-read the thread and comments throughout. Read my comments in the thread. Read karenina's, Read nofurylike's, read H2O's one small statement.

Look again at the video. I've now seen it four times. If that is resistance we are in dire straits. What we consider "resistance" is entirely emasculated and ineffectual.

[Nikki Stone1]

64. I think you missed your own point. Look at the juxtaposition of your title and your OP

What did you mean? You, yourself? Before everyone else responded?

You clearly had an intent by linking the student's "standing by" with an experiment in authoritarianism, which actually doesn't apply in this case. The Milgram experiment was done to show that "decent" people commit atrocities for a government/authority figure even when they might never do these things on their own. This does not apply at all to the UCLA case. The only people committing atrocities were the authority figures and everyone else stood opposed to them.

Nonetheless, you brought in Milgram so you are thinking about authority and fascism. Connect this to your title and it is clear that you are criticizing the UCLA kids for not doing more than they did, accusing them of cowering to fascism. That is the kernel of your post and of your thread.

Now in this post to me, you have said that the UCLA resistance was "emasculated and ineffectual". What do you mean by emasculated? What would have made the UCLA students more "masculinized" in their response? What response would have satisfied you and why?

And as far as ineffectual is concerned, how ineffectual is YouTube? These kids put the cops on display on the net worldwide. UCLA is in the middle of a firestorm and they are afraid of losing major dollars in tuition across the country and across the world. The posting of the video was INCREDIBLY effective, far more effective than a few kids getting arrested and going to jail.

Since you quoted a case from the past (Milgram) I'll quote a case from the past: Kitty Genovese. I don't know if you remember her, but in the 1970s, she was killed on the streets of New York City. People in the neighborhood heard her screaming, but no one intervened. This wasn't authority or cops or fascists. This was a neighborhood killer. If several of those folks had intervened, even called 911 earlier, she might have lived. Now compared to Kitty Genovese's neighbors, these UCLA kids were incredibly involved. They were stressed, tired, typing term papers, and completely unprepared for the cops' viscious behavior. The fact that they stayed, witnessed the event, argued with the cops, demanded badge numbers, and TAPED the event is pretty significant.

So tell me: what more did you want them to do?

[MnFats]

45. a lot of police departments, at least here in the upper midwest

are foregoing using tasers -- precise training on where they fit in the 'use of force' spectrum is difficult, liability can be huge and, lo and behold, some people die when tasered.
plus, it's inhumane --- instead of simply subduing a perhaps-violent suspect, they inflict incredible pain.
despite the instant case, most cops are not torturers.

[Nikki Stone1]

47. Interesting. It certainly sounded like that UCLA student was in pain

I am assuming that their best use may be as a substitute for guns with violent criminals, but not as a weapon to control the general public.

[RagingInMiami]

54. I agree completely

Which is why I give you the fifth recommendation for the GP

[Nikki Stone1]

57. Thank you! :)

I appreciate that.

[treestar]

58. This is true

Anybody in the situation has to use their judgment. In this situation, yelling at the cops and making sure they knew they were being videotaped could have been enough to get them to stop.

I think the outrage is directed at those saying things like:

- changing the subject to say you should never interfere with an arrest. Naturally not. Nobody said that.

- saying that the cops are bigger and stronger and therefore you have to do whatever they say. People die in wars to protect this freedom, so why can't people who are able to risk themselves in these situations and it's their choice - that is fighting for freedom too - but it is up to the individual.

- people saying that they would get arrested and that would mar their perfect record and companies wouldn't hire them - that's like saying working for such narrow minded assholes who would not consider the explanation, maybe, some day, is better than standing up for somebody being abused. The arrest in question would not be legitimate anyway. Such employers are looking for total sheep and that's what you are if that's the reason.

[Nikki Stone1]

61. I read all the types of remarks you mentioned in various threads

And you're correct: it really is a judgement call.

It is pretty clear that the UCLA students tried to interfere with an arrest to the extent that they argued with the cops, asked for badge numbers, and taped the thing. I think all of these were appropriate responses. Clearly the students realized that what the cops were doing was wrong and they did not just walk away because the cops were bigger and stronger. (I imagine some kids hightailed it out of there, but many did not.)

In terms of getting arrested, I think that may be where the younger generation may have more tools than the older generation; a hundred kids getting arrested may not be as influential as one video on the internet, depending on how bad the abuse is and what your goals are. This too is a judgement call. Clearly if the cops had been beating the victim, a more physical intervention might have occurred. The fact that we have all been told that the taser is "safe" may play into our not getting as physically involved. I think we need to revisit the taser as a tool of control for non-violent suspects.

[oscarmitre]

91. If the police believed that they were using reasonable

force and doing so in a very public area, why would they stop using what they considered to be reasonable force simply because bystanders told them to do so?

Whether or not this was reasonable force will be judged by a competent tribunal of some sort I would imagine.

[Nikki Stone1]

100. So what do you think the students should have done?

And the question of reasonable force is a hot one. It will be interesting to see what happens. Remember the Simi Valley jury acquitted the LAPD cops who beat Rodney King. It took an inferno from one end of the city to the other (down Vermont Street) to get the injustice reversed.

[Mythsaje]

59. I think you're right...

I didn't realize there had been a controversy over the students' reaction, but I think they did exactly the right thing considering the circumstances. Lucky, that, since they probably had no idea of the ultimate outcome.

Taping it and getting as much info as possible probably WAS their best course of action. Anybody who thinks differently needs to shut up and think on it for a little while.

In my opinion.

[Nikki Stone1]

65. The taping was the best thing

It put the abuse of power on display.

[kster]

62. This is one of the better threads,

don't blame, educate the kids, based on what you saw in that video, What should the kids do the next time, This thread seems to have people who have "been there done that" Please don't tell the kids what they should have done, explain what they need to do in future when they encounter police torture, such as this.

Some of You guys/gals have a world of knowledge, Please come up with a program or a plan of what the kids can do in the future, I know you can, based on comments in this thread.

[truedelphi]

67. I'm remembering too that one of the main turning points about

Vietnam were the 1968 demonstrations surrounding the Democratic convention in Chicago.

Mayor Daley, whose own sons were hardy partiers and members of the "No Way will I go to Nam" era,
had been fairly liberal - offering the public free concerts in the park. And many demonstations that I attended after the 1968 bloodbath were patrolled by police who seemed to be handpicked for their humane methods of dealing with crowds

But during the long days of the 1968 demonstrations the police were jacked up and seemed to be hand picked for their desire to hurt anyone and anyone who got in their way. Historians have recounted how Daley was taking charge in a way that would see to it that Humphrey and only Humprhey would survive the nomination process. Perhaps that is so.

But long term - ew - what damage was done. You had cops swinging at anything and anyone - and that means that AP photographers got whacked in the face. Ditto Reuters. Ditto NY Times, and Miami Herald, and The Chicago SunTimes, the Minneaplois Star, and The LA Times and the Chciago Tribune.

Hugh Hefner's office was still in Chicago at that time -his Playboy photographers and journalists were roughed up.

Until that summer the media had pretty much portrayed the war in Nam without questioning it very much. But once its newspeople shed blood and had their cameras taken away or smashed into smithereens - well, it was war and it was personal. The media began to question greatly why we were in Nam and how come the Powers that be wanted us there.

Now we have lost the media as it has gone corporate. Good to know we have every man every woman and every student as witness, just with the flick of the omnipresent cellphone.

[Nikki Stone1]

69. Great post. I remember when our media actually reported stuff

Now we have to fight to keep the net free so we have a place to put the truth

[Balderdash]

68. Excellent thread

k&r

[Nikki Stone1]

70. Thanks!

:)

[Casablanca]

71. And if the student had a heart condition, and had died ...

... you could have honored him as a martyr to the cause.

_One_ instance of thug cops (unlike most cops, who aren't thugs) being restrained from continuing their macho feeding frenzy would have had the rest thinking twice about doing that kind of thing in the future. As it stands, cops who are on the fence about it will say "Why not taser when we don't have to? It makes our lives easier and no one will stop us."

What's the problem with restraining the thug cops _and_ filming it _and_ posting it on YouTube?

Unless, like many people, you're just rationalizing cowardice and fear of the bully.

[Nikki Stone1]

75. So the UCLA students should have used physical force?

Is that what you would do?

[Jcrowley]

72. International Bystanders

The Pot and the Kettle
In the years since, I’ve encountered a few other situations in which I might have been able to help someone in trouble, but didn’t. When I see or hear something happening—or possibly happening—I feel confused, afraid, frustrated. Maybe I don’t understand what’s really going on. Maybe the person isn’t in danger at all. Can I do anything about it if they are? What about my own safety? Surely one of these other bystanders is better qualified to help. Surely someone else has called the police. And then, having stood there doing nothing while everyone else was thinking the same thing, I feel tremendous guilt. By my inaction, I’ve just experienced the Kitty Genovese Syndrome.

As I’d discovered in that San Jose hotel lobby—and earlier, just after I was mugged—crowds of people are much less likely to intervene than individuals, especially if those individuals are asked directly for help. This is the crux of Kitty Genovese Syndrome: a kind of mutual buck-passing that occurs within a group when no one emerges automatically as the “right” person to help. Everyone assumes that someone else will be the one to help. Although fear for one’s safety often plays a part, that fear shouldn’t prevent someone from, say, making a phone call. No one, of course, wants the inconvenience of being dragged into someone else’s problem. But I think nearly all of us would be willing to endure some inconvenience to save a person’s life. What makes Kitty Genovese Syndrome so insidious is that the apparent strength in numbers is actually a weakness that discourages any individual from taking on personal responsibility to intervene.

International Bystanders

When I saw the film Hotel Rwanda, I left the theater very upset. The genocide in the early 1990s that left 800,000 Rwandans dead occurred with very little intervention from either those within Rwanda or the international community—a profound example, as several commentators have pointed out, of Kitty Genovese Syndrome. I simply couldn’t fathom that anyone could know what was going on and do nothing. And yet, paradoxically, I can imagine no other response—with so many other people in the world, surely this must be someone else’s problem. Someone wiser, more powerful, or closer to the situation. What could I have done anyway? I have my own problems. But then, so does everyone else.

There’s no cure for this problem. Even knowing about this effect as I do, chances are, I’ll someday be an unhelpful bystander once again. But just maybe I’ll have the presence of mind to realize that the person best qualified to help is the one willing to take action in the face of confusion and doubt. —Joe Kissell

http://itotd.com/articles/503/kitty-genovese-syndrome/

[Nikki Stone1]

74. How about actually answering my questions (post #64) instead of just posting articles?

What did you want the UCLA students to do? Give specifics.

[Jcrowley]

78. Missed again

No surprises in the culture of individualism nor any blame.

The point was not what I or you wanted the UCLA students to do or not do but what has become of a culture that is so passive? Address the problems at it's roots and the questions you posed become irrelevant.

This is the most hyper-militarized society on earth. There is much that comes with that. None of it is good. And not all of it is so obvious. But still the examples surround us.

I'm not here to tell anyone what to do. Certain people like to think they would've intervened. They may not when in that spot. Others might think they would do little but once in that position they may surprise themselves and act in ways unforeseen.

That still doesn't get to the point.

[Nikki Stone1]

80. Musing on generalities doesn't answer the question: what would you have the UCLA students do?

You seem to be avoiding answering this question, but you have no problem criticizing the UCLA students for "standing by" and associating them with an experiment from the 1950s on fascism.

I'll ask again: what would you have them DO?

[Pooka Fey]

95. I've appreciated your posts on this subject

I was sick for 2 days after watching that video - sick at the smug violence of the cops and sick that the student bystanders let a member of their community be tortured in front of their eyes while doing nothing truly effective to potentially save the victim's life. However, the psychology of the group is undeniable - everyone waits for someone else to act decisively. The fact that this happened on a University campus - a community - is what was most shocking for me.

I applaud the students who taped the incident, however this cannot be offered up as an "either/or" choice when someone's life is at stake. Nobody can say with any degree of certainty, "I would have done this or that differently had I been there" and so I won't say it. However, I've taken this video as a personal warning - as a lesson - that should I be a witness to violence like this - I hope I will remember that there is nobody but myself to intervene or to be the leader.

Personally I would have liked to see a group of students peacefully sit down surrounding the victim to protect him from the assault. Other posters on this thread have commented that this sort of non-violent response must be taught to people beforehand, and I think this makes sense. I watched this video with my French boyfriend. He said this incident would never in one thousand years happen on a University campus in France, and that a French student body would NEVER stand by passively watching their colleague be tortured by the police. He said that if the American people have become so mesmerized by uniforms, and the symbols of authority that the uniform represents; well then we are truly lost in the struggle against the rising totalitarianism of our government. We were both relieved to learn of the protests on the UCLA campus on Friday.

Several posters seem to feel that the money that the victim will receive from the lawsuit will make this experience 'all better'. I almost get the impression that some feel that it was almost 'lucky' for him - HEY YOU GET THE CASH! WHOO-HOOO!! The trauma of this incident will affect this young man probably for the rest of his life. He will need various forms of medical intervention even to achieve a partial psychological recovery. I'm not sure I would be able to remain a member of the student body at UCLA had this incident happened to me.

I hope some good will come out of this, because as a snapshot of America, it was extraordinarily grim.

[Nikki Stone1]

103. "Nothing truly effective to save the victim's life"? (He didn't die)

And he wasn't going to.

I think if the cops were shooting or physically beating the victim, there might have been a more physical reaction from the other students. The fact that the weapon was a taser, something non-lethal under normal circumstances (or at least perceived that way) took away from the immediate urgency of life and death. In a way, the taser is a sneaky sort of weapon in that it can torture without killing and without leaving overt marks. It's hard to estimate the damage that another is getting from a taser. I think this case has brought about a better understanding of the torture capacity of the taser, and I don't think the reaction will be the same in the future.

You need to know that the taser is often marketed to women to immobilize (but not kill) a potential rapist or mugger. The capacity for torture is not in the marketing info. I think people tend to equate it with other non-lethal weapons like pepper spray. This case will change that.

Now as to your criticism of the student response, I think you are overly harsh. These are not kids who have spent a lot of time fighting cops. In the US, middle class children are raised to believe that the cops are beneficial, there for them. Little kids are told if they get lost to ask a cop to take them home. Kids watch their parents call the cops when property has been stolen or damaged, and they learn to trust the police. Other groups in America know better that the cops are not your friends.

What you were watching on that tape was a bunch of middle class kids--tired, overworked, in the 8th week of a 10 week quarter, writing papers late at night--suddenly being kicked out of a lifelong trust of the police. Suddenly, the cops weren't abusing "bad guys" but abusing one of their own. The fact that these kids stayed, yelled, asked for badge numbers, and filmed the incident, indicates a moral reaction that superceded a lifetime of programming to trust the police. I imagine that none of these kids will look at a cop the same way again.

Remember, they all could have left, figuring the guy had it coming to him. A lot of adults would have done just that, and the students' parents might have told them not to get involved.

Now, when you are in this situation yourself, and when you physically rush a cop, please let us know here on DU and post some pictures. I would be interested to see if you can put your money where your mouth is.

[Jcrowley]

114. I find this observation quite interesting

You come to the point of this when you describe your boyfriends thoughts on the matter.

It's rather futile for any of us to say what we would do or what we think others should have done as these things are quite situational. But what can be instructive and helpful is to analyze the system and/or climate that allows perhaps fosters this type of violence and this level of obedience that we see every day in America.

Why does America so blindly embrace authoritarianism and revere it's father figure militaristic history? This goes deeply into a national psychosis that was magnified at UCLA. We will probably see no more than a few band-aids, feel good speeches and new regulations to cover up the untidy matter. Until we address the roots of this disease similar actions will continue

Perhaps if we export COPS, Survivor and daily talk shows along with some Soma we can get other nations to follow our degree of docility.

[question everything]

73. Agree. I wonder how many DUers who jump over the students

have been tasered themselves. And even if they were, no one can put himself in the position of someone else. Yes, civic disobedience, or even a physical one are admirable, but not everyone can do this.

And we forget that today's taser is not like the old stick that police used to carry during the civil rights movement, for example. With a taser, the cops do not even need to get too close to their target.

[Nikki Stone1]

77. Thank you. The taser is a very different kind of weapon

Interfering with a night stick may be easier in some ways--the cop has to actually swing the thing to create mementum and it is easier to get a large stick out of someone's hand than a small taser, which, as you state, doesn't even need to be close to the victim.

Taser and all, the kids were not doing as the cops told them. They were moving in on the cops, they followed them into the hallway, they kept yelling no and asking for the badge numbers.

[K8-EEE]

76. I Agree -- btw you have to be SMART to get into UCLA!

Too smart to be goaded into fighting with cops about to be fired....they helped the student by getting evidence that will not only win him his case (rightly so) but stop this from happening again.

In a free for all, they all get tasered, the issue gets confused and the cops ALWAYS get benefit of the doubt.

KUDOS TO THE UCLA STUDENTS!!! THIS OLD ANGELINO GAL SEZ GOOD ON YA!

[Nikki Stone1]

79. We're on the same page.

I'm an old Angelino gal as well and spent some time in Powell library. :)

[rockymountaindem]

81. Tell that to the people who called me a disgusting coward

for saying basically what you said. I guess I'll join you in the fascist-enablers' club, eh?

[Nikki Stone1]

82. Some people like "smackdown" for its own sake or confuse power with physical force

What they forget is that non-violent resistance is highly effective. It creates a situation in which the victim (who doesn't fight back) is CLEARLY the victim and the perpetrators--even if legal authorities in uniform--look like thugs. This plays extremely well in video to a mass audience who may not understand the issues at hand but can identify an abuser and a victim. It also embarrasses the authority stucture which wants to be seen by its people as "decent" or "moral" or "good". Non-violent resistance, with the right video distribution system, is extremely effective at damaging a government or institution's image, creating sympathy for a victim or cause, and ultimately, creating public will for social change.

[K8-EEE]

94. Yes! Just like GWB, non-violent response = "doing nothing"

NOT true -- all you have to do is look at the different cycles of violence we have in this country from street gangs to armies, it's VERY ineffective in solving anything 98% of the time.

[Nikki Stone1]

108. Yes, the neocons believe in violence as a way to solve things, or smackdown for the

sake of smackdown.

But there are far more subtle ways of fighting and of getting your point across.

[tuvor]

83. The only opinion that matters belongs to the poor guy who got tasered.

[Nikki Stone1]

84. It seems that any one of us could be dealing with out of control cops

at some point in our lives. It's worth the discussion, I think. Our opinions are all valid.

By the way, the poor guy who got tasered may eventually be the rich guy who got tasered. UCLA will pay out the nose for this.

[MadHound]

89. Would your opinion be the same if the student had died,

While the students sat back and filmed it all?

Trained or not, tired or not, all it takes to step in between the victim and the cops is one person with the guts to do so. While I applaud the students for at least responding and filming this incident, they still allowed the tasering to continue. Again, what if that student had died?

[K8-EEE]

93. Oh what if what if what if???

What if they would have gotten involved physically and it only lead to MORE violence and THEN the student died.

I think it worked out the best possible way, myself -- non-violent intervention & documentation.

You can woulda shoulda coulda any situation to death my friend but adding violence to the equation would only have made things worse IMO.

[Nikki Stone1]

97. How would the students have predicted that the victim of the taser would die?

A taser is non-lethal (with a few exceptions). If the victim had yelled "I have a heart condition; this will kill me", then I could see at least some of the students taking more of a physical risk. If the cops had a gun or were beating the victim senseless with a nightstick, I could also see more of a physical response, since these are more likely to cause death.

But under normal conditions, a taser doesn't kill, and it was far better that the students actually tape the brutality and post in on the web than that they got into a brawl with the cops which could have ended up with requests for backup, a lot more kids getting tasered, and other escalated violence.

I will also remind you that the person who taped the Rodney King beating did not get involved and try to help when 4 LAPD officers looked like they were going to kill the guy. The video, however, caused a sea change in LAPD.

[lakemonster11]

90. Agreed.

I was actually quite impressed with the students' response. They gathered close around so that the cops would know that there were numerous witnesses, they continually shouted their disapproval of what was going on, they demanded names and badge numbers, and, most importantly, they recorded the whole thing and got it out into the public eye. And these weren't organized activists at a protest---they were a random collection of students who, until moments before, had been studying late at the library.

If they had tried to overpower the cops, I can guarantee that the media coverage would have been very different. Headlines would have read "Students Attack Police at Library" or "Police Arrest 8 in Library Brawl." As it is, the video shows a clear contrast between the violent actions of the cops and the calm determination of the students. The victim himself is upset and shouting, of course, but as he is being repeatedly tasered, I think some distress is to be expected.

UCLA, strangely enough, decided that the day after this incident made headlines would be a great time to send out emails inviting me (and, presumably, many others who have recently taken the LSAT) to apply to their law school. I imagine they got quite a few spirited responses. :eyes:

[Seabiscuit]

92. Yeah, right. Meanwhile, the victim was tasered 5 times instead of once.

It wasn't an either/or situation. Recording the event on video was essential, yes (next time, hopefully someone who knows how to shoot real video will do the shooting). But there's no excuse for not restraining the cops who were committing crimes against a victim who had committed none.

Anything less than doing both is not just thoughtless, it's cowardly.

[Seabiscuit]

102. On second thought:

Would you stand idly by taking some lousy video with a cell phone while a bunch of cops beat the crap out of your little girl?

[Nikki Stone1]

105. The more correct question is, "Would you have interefered at the cops tasering a stranger?"

That's the situation we have here. And there are two variables. The first is the taser, which is marketed as a non-lethal weapon. Beating the crap out of someone is much more overt and more likely to cause death than tasering under normal circumstances. The taser, we have been told, doesn't kill people and the pain is temporary. If this UCLA case results in revisiting the taser as a weapon, I will be interested to read about it. It could be that the taser is much more damaging than has been revealed, and if that is the case, its use should be restricted.

The second variable is an adult stranger, male, at the center of an altercation with the cops. Because the person is a stranger and because I don't know necessarily what came before, I don't know what level of risk to take or not.
For these students, the victim was a fellow student, and it was more clear which side they should be on from the outset. The level of risk they were willing to take was affected by other things, including the fact that the weapon was a taser.

[Seabiscuit]

110. It's not "the more correct question" and I've already answered it anyway.

Since you're trying to find an elaborate way to avoid answering my question, let me make it super easy for you. If the student being tasered at UCLA was your daughter, would you have stood idly by watching her suffer when you had the ability to organize dozens of students to restrain the campus police from tasering her another four times?

If you can say yes, you've obviously never been a parent.

[Nikki Stone1]

113. Actually it is. Your question was a false analogy.

We have different levels of involvement based on our age, life experience, relationship to the parties involved, etc.

In the UCLA case, you have a bunch of young students, cops who are older than they are, and a victim whom most of them may not have known personally.

In your new and improved question, you have an adult parent with a sense of entitlement over the cops (I pay your salary) and a victim whom that mother would give her life for.

These are two different situations. There are things you would do for your child that you would never do for a stranger. There is almost a visceral biological reaction that would emerge, that would do your thinking for you. Of course a mother would intervene on behalf of her child in ANY situation and regardless of the gender of the child, I might add. There is an adrenaline rush that explains things like a mother lifting a grand piano off her kid or beating up a carjacker who is about to take her car with her baby in it. (This latter is a case from Washington DC from the early 1990s, and the mother beat the carjacker up but good). This kind of visceral reaction does not happen for strangers. That may be unfair, but that's the way it is. So to answer a question about what a mother would do if her child was being tased is different from answering a question about what a bunch of young students would do if a student they might or might not know was being tased. That's why I said your question was a false analogy. It was meant to be a trap for me, and I avoided it. So of course you're not happy with me. :)

That being said, let us return to the UCLA case. We have students who are taught to respect cops, their elders. We have cops who are older, we have a fellow student they may or may not know. We have a late night, overwork, etc. We have a shocking and sudden brutality that took students by surprise. And we have students untrained in the art of resistance to cops. (This is really crucial, by the way. You 60s folks need to remember how much you owe the organizers and even the professors for the atmosphere you had back then on college campuses. You were trained.)

The UCLA students reacted. And they taped the damned thing for the world to see or else we wouldn't be arguing about this. The tape is sickening to watch and listen to. It makes you want to intervene.

I will say this: if I were a college professor in library at that time of night, witnessing the kind of situation in that tape, I would have more of a sense of entitlement than the students and I would feel more of a moral responsibility as an authority figure to protect the student being tased. I would have told the students to call 911 (LAPD) and I would have tried to--non-violently--put myself between the victim and the cops, trying to talk to the cops. (Knowing that a professor was watching them might have had an effect--I don't know) But there is no way in hell I would have rushed the cops and escalated the violence. In the end, any violent reaction on my part could have made things a lot worse for all of the other students, whom I would also feel a responsibility to protect.

[Nikki Stone1]

104. Restraining the cops would have caused them to call for backup and

There could have been a lot more tasering and a lot more injured kids.

No one is saying that the situation is either/or. Certainly if students wanted to rush the cops, others could have used their cell phones to record the situation. But quite frankly. the non-violence of the students in the video actually works to the benefit of the victim and against the cops, who come across as brutes and torturers. That is actually far more effective than a tape of a physical altercation with the cops, where the students look out of control.

[Seabiscuit]

107. If the cops are truly restrained, how are they going to call for backup?

This has already been covered in other threads. The students could have restrained the cops, called the *real* police to have the campus cops arrested, and also called 911 to get the student into an ambulance.

The OP set up the "either/or" by saying no effort to restrain the cops was necessary, that the video was sufficient.

You seem overly concerned with how everything is going to play in a hostile media, and far too little concern about the welfare of someone being brutalized. In my time, the 60's, there would have been 50 students all over those pigs as soon as they tasered someone the first time. It's called a "citizen's arrest".

The point of the old song, "Something in the air tonight" is that when someone has the ability to aid someone in distress they have a moral duty to do so. Failure to act is shameful.

[Nikki Stone1]

111. The cops would ask library staff to call the campus police for backup;the staff might do this anyway

You forget that there were people in that building other than just the involved students and the cops. This wasn't a street corner with no one else in sight. This was a university library with lots of students and library staff. Backup would have been called and come. And once the students had become violent, it would not have been clear who the victims were--cops or students--and other students, seeing the brawl, might have called the LAPD themselves and reported an assault on campus police officers.

Now as far as the OP is concerned: it is clear that you and some others believe that there was a moral imperative for the students to physically intervene. The OP basically says that this is NOT the case and not to regard the students as ineffective or immoral for NOT getting physical with the cops. What they did do was fairly amazing actually, considering the lateness of the hour, the unexpected location, the overwork of the 8th week of a 10-week quarter and a lifelong trust of the police bred into the middle class: they non-violently resisted. And they TAPED the police violence for the world to see, posting it on the internet.

The OP does not say that violence should not or never be used, nor does it suggest that rushing the cops cannot also be taped. It DOES say that there was no necessity in this case to rush the cops and that the students used the tools at their disposal to reveal the sadistic behavior they witnessed.

Now, as far as the 60s are considered, you folks were trained for resistance. I know because I went through some training myself later on for non-violent resistance. There are techniques, there is knowledge of your rights, and their is leadership training that all need to be schooled into someone to be able to react the way that students reacted in the 1960s. How to do a citizen's arrest needs to be taught, like anything else. Otherwise, you just get in over your head and get arrested yourself. The university campuses in the 1960s had organizers who went around and trained students for this kind of action. I would never expect a bunch of untrained student to know how to physically react to this kind of police brutality. There also needs to be an on campus climate that fosters this kind of resistance. Remember that professors in the 1960s also got involved in the protests.

Did you yourself undergo this training? Did you ever rush a cop and perform a citizen's arrest? If so, I'd like to hear about the training and about your experience.

[Seabiscuit]

112. Well, you've collected a pile of rationalizations for just about everything.

BTW, we were not "trained for resistance" in the 60's. Resistance arose spontaneously all over the globe during that time. Eventually "organizers" spoke to crowds about their rights, but the physical resistance was already there. We merely learned by example as it was going on.

Sorry, but the college campuses did NOT have organizers traveling around training students in resistance. That's just your wild-eyed fantasy as one prop for your rationalizations.

Yes, I was involved in demonstrations, tear gassings, and attacks by police, and yes, without any training whatsoever we wrestled billy clubs out of the cops hands, leaving them powerless. Were we able to effect a citizen's arrest amidst all the chaos? Not in the demonstrations I was a part of - hundreds cops and thousands of demonstrators. The cops had all the weapons - tear gas, clubs, fire hoses, guns. Some demonstrators in Europe had molotov cocktails, but not Stateside.

You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions in your elaborate scheme to refuse to acknowledge the moral imperative here. Beyond that, there's no point in repeating myself any further.

[Nikki Stone1]

115. No, I have shown you what the parameters were

You choose to ignore them and cast aspersions on me. That's your choice.

Now, college campuses DID have organizers. You may not have been in the leadership circles. But organizers did go from campus to campus. Some campuses actually rejected these organizers (Oberlin comes to mind here as a case I know about from an alum.) The Civil Rights movement and the anti War movement had organizers and methods and training. Non-violent resistance involves training. Knowing how to react to cops without being reactive involves training. As I told you, I went through some of this training myself later. And being around oldtimers who had been through things also gives newbies a certain amount of training. You may not have been aware of everything that was out there, but I guarantee you these methods did not come out of nowhere.

Now as far as acknowledging a moral imperative:

There was a moral imperative to not just walk off. The students didn't

There was a moral imperative to be witnesses. The students did that, and with flying colors I might add.

There was a moral imperative to try and intervene. THe student did, with words, screaming "Stop it", asking for badge numbers, which got them threatened by the cops.

I do not see the moral imperative to physically rush the cops in this situation thereby causing possibly more harm, As long as the taser is non-lethal and as long as the billy club and the gun are potentially lethal, the taser did not warrant the same physical intervention that a billy club or gun would. (Provided that the student did not yell "I am a heart patient, this can kill me" at which point tasering would be tantamount to murder.) But even so, I do not fault the students for not getting physically involved.

And I think the videoing of this case is going to do a whole lot more than simply rushing the cops would have. The cops look like the brutes they are and the emerging police state is shown in all its glory. I hope every American watches this video and wakes the hell up.

[Seabiscuit]

118. I was a student at Oberlin college and I can tell you right off the bat that

your claim about *knowing* about protest organizing at Oberlin "from an alum" is pure bullshit.

As for the rest of your post, I found what little I read not worth reading, so I've chosen to ignore the rest.

[Nikki Stone1]

120. Actually, Oberlin is one of the places I know about that rejected certain organizers

At least one that I know of. What year were you there? I'll have to compare notes with my alum/friend and see what the time period was.

Sad that you choose to ignore what you don't like. I have read every one of your posts and responded. It would be nice to have the same regard from you.

[Seabiscuit]

124. I don't mean to be rude, but I was getting tired, and I'm in no mood for

arguing.

I was at Oberlin from 1963 - 1965 when I left and did some traveling and working in and around various college communities around the country, as well as Paris, France. I eventually graduated from UC Berkeley. Some of my friends stayed and graduated in 1967.

During that time I knew of no peripatetic protest organizers going around giving "protest training" to any students anywhere, I never saw anything like that, never heard of anything like that, and never read of anything like that.

Sure there were people like Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin in Berkeley that organinized some protest events in Berkeley and Oakland, but you could hardly credit them with passing on any "protest training" techniques, per se. They certainly didn't travel the country holding meetings at college campuses where they instructed students on such things. In the end, of course, they both proved to be little more than opportunistic clowns.

What there was at the time was SDS. Students for a Democratic Society. That may be what your friend recalls. It had chapters at numerous college campuses, including Oberlin (at least while I was there). So they didn't need to travel from campus to campus. It was painted by the Nixon administration as "a communist radical fringe group". It was hardly communist, but if demonstrating against the war was "radical fringe", yes, it was definitely that. :) They did a lot of protest organizing but they hardly went around campuses teaching people "techniques" for confronting armed police.

[Nikki Stone1]

128. I don't think it was SDS, but I'll check with her.

I think she may have been there slightly after you were.

My impression was that there was another group that was coming in, as she put it, "to agitate" against the Vietnam war. The school administration stopped it.

I will have to ask her.

Were you a music major after Oberlin? What instrument did you play?

[Seabiscuit]

135. I was a double major at Oberlin

college: physics
conservatory: piano

Net result? I graduated from Bezerkely with a major in political science and went on to become an attorney.

But I have many fond memories of my days at "Obie".

[Nikki Stone1]

137. You sound like my kind of scholar, actually. :)

My favorite courses were music, French and calculus. (I loved Calculus and am currently reading Leibniz for a class).

What kind of law do you practice?

My friend was a voice major at Oberlin, but left before finishing as well.

[Seabiscuit]

140. I minored in French...

(spent several years in Paris - one of them at the Sorbonne, actually, and am to this date still pretty much fluent).

I've practiced in several areas of the law, mostly litigation, including securities fraud, antitrust, employment discrimination, personal injury, etc., but in my later years have settled into estate planning and elder law (I think I more than paid my "dues" in the courtroom).

I left Obie for family and financial reasons. Otherwise I would have graduated there with a double major, probably within about 5 years.

[Nikki Stone1]

141. No kidding!

I am envious of your years in Paris. I only got to France once on a work exchange.

I have heard from some lawyer friends of mine that trial work can burn you out. I take it that estate planning and elder law is more low key?

[Seabiscuit]

143. Well, I suppose I'm a bit of a Gallomaniac

Spent a summer in France after high school;

Spent several years there in the '60's.

Honeymooned in Paris in 1999.

I can't say I was "burned out" from trial work (I actually enjoyed it, despite the pressure) but when you get to be close to my age you do slow down a bit and I wanted to shift to something less high-pressured before any slowing might interfere with clients' interests. It's mostly document drafting at this point.

Looking back on it all, as enjoyable as it's been, none of it has been as fulfilling as the past 2 years I've spent raising my 2 year old boy. I'm really semi-retired, so I can spend more time with him.

[Nikki Stone1]

148. It sounds like you've had and continue to have quite a fulfilling life

I hope when I get to that point where you are, I can look back and say the same thing.

[Seabiscuit]

149. Nice talking to you, Nikki, and I'll watch for you on DU.

Just keep wondering and asking questions, as a child does, and your life will always be fulfilling.

[Nikki Stone1]

150. Same here

And thanks for the advice. :)

[Seabiscuit]

116. I should point out that I'm not condemning the UCLA students.

Their reaction to the police brutality was disappointing but not unexpected. In the first thread I saw on the subject, the day the first video appeared on the web, I commented that I found them to be "passive", and that in the 60's students would have been all over the campus police, restraining them, calling the real police and calling for help to get the victim to the hospital for treatment. Regardless of all the hypothetical outcomes. They would have done what they believed to be the right thing.

One or two students asked for police badges and argued with them, backing off when threatened with being tased themselves. A few others yelled for the cops to "stop it" when they heard the victim screaming from being tased. But beyond that, they merely gathered around and watched from a safe distance.

I find that sad.

It's a generational difference. The UCLA students may be the first generation brought up saturated with TV screens, movie rentals, cable, computer screens, the internet, free downloadable music and movies, portable cell phones with digital pictures and video, even DVD players in their cars. They do most of their studying on a personal computer or laptop. They have absorbed so much simulated violence through the media that they've been saturated to the point of being sated. So when confronted with real violence right before their eyes, they've been culturally conditioned all their lives to react as if it's impersonal, non-immediate, and distant from them.

I don't blame them for that. I just find it sad.

None of that existed in the 60's. Very few students watched any TV. The only time I watched any TV in college was when Kennedy and then Oswald got shot. Oh, yeah, and I watched the Beatles premiering on the Ed Sullivan show. That's it. Cable didn't exist. Personal computers didn't exist. Cell phones didn't exist. If you wanted to see a movie you took a date or went with friends to the theater, once a week or once a month at most. When we went to the library we read books and hand-wrote notes in notebooks. On the rare occasions we spoke on the phone, we used the pay phone down the hall. We kept our phone calls brief, because we didn't have prepaid "free minutes". Everything in our lives was immediate and personal. So when confronted with incidents of police brutality, we felt *involved* - it was right in front of us, and part of our lives. I think the UCLA students in that video lack that sense of immediacy to events going on around them. They appear, in a word coined in my younger years, to be "alienated".

So by asserting principles, I'm not condemning the UCLA students. I forgive them for merely being who they are.

[Nikki Stone1]

119. That's the difference. I congratulate them on having the presence of mind to tape the thing

I don't consider them lame or sad or immoral.

I do think you have a good point about the extent to which media controls our lives. Everywhere is an onslaught of media and it is designed to be numbing and to get us to buy stuff. What was great about this case is that the media on which these students are being numbed is the media they used to resist the cops. I like the irony of that.

That being said, there are plenty of pre-cable/cellphone/internet examples of people doing NOTHING when others were threatened. I mentioned the Kitty Genovese case earlier in this thread, but throughout history we have people standing around and doing nothing when others were threatened. I'm sure you can think of many examples.

I was impressed that these kids, trained as they are to be middle class and not get involved actually GOT involved. They stayed, they witnessed, they taped. And now, their witness to this atrocity may actually help the nation as we try to hold back the emerging police state we are living in. Maybe we can revisit that Supreme Court decision requiring people to show ID to a cop or else be arrested. Maybe this UCLA case can do that.

[Karenina]

123. I was about to get a bit "protective."

But I see you can take care of yourself quite nicely. ;-) :hug:

[Nikki Stone1]

129. Thanks for the kind words.

And the hug. :)

[Seabiscuit]

126. I don't consider the UCLA students "lame" or "immoral" either, but I do

think it's "sad" that they reacted, for the most part, so passively.

I recall how shocked I was at the Kitty Genevese incident - the bottom line of "not wanting to get involved" may appear similar, but there are, I think, more distinctions than parallels with the UCLA incident. Kitty Genovese was attacked by one person late at night on a dark, deserted street. The residents of the buildings around the incident were filled with middle-aged to older relatively low income people, who were either bedded down for the night or getting ready to. Some looked out their room windows, others didn't even bother. No one did anything as her attacker returned (I think more than once) to continue the beatings until she died. At UCLA, by contrast several dozen young students were present together while two campus police attacked another student right in front of them at the library. They far outnumbered the police and had the opportunity to stop it and did nothing, beyond what I've mentioned in other posts, and what's clearly visible on the one video recording that made it to the internet. So something more than "not wanting go get involved" was at work. And I think the media culture we have to day has a lot to do with it, whatever it is.

The main parallel I draw is that in both the Kitty Genovese case and the UCLA incident, witnesses lost sight of their moral imperative to aid those in distress, no matter what the reason or excuse for doing so.

I agree with your conclusions at this point, I just disagree to the extent that I believe that if this were the 1960's and the students were those from the 1960's, you would have seen the majority of those assembled preventing the police from doing any more harm after the first tasering. And I disagree that it's a better thing that the students did not come to the aid of the victim before more harm was done, when they had the opportunity and ability to do so. That's where I stand by moral principle.

I don't know of any Supreme Court case that authorizes arrest for failure to show ID. Old loitering statutes have long since been struck down by the courts. I think what's going on here is campus police making their own bad interpretations of the Patriot Act, which deserves to be torn to shreds.

[Nikki Stone1]

130. Genovese's attacker did come back a couple of times.

Middle aged or low income, those folks in NYC could have banded together and at least witnessed the act and called the cops. The UCLA students did more than those folks ever did for Genovese.

I watched the UCLA video again today and went through it more carefully. To me, those kids looked tired. It was certainly after 11pm and most of them had been working in the library. (It is the last 3 weeks of the UC quarter.) But they also looked a little shell-shocked, like they couldn't believe this was happening. There were a lot of kids who actively participated, however, and yelled "No", talked with the cops and asked for badge numbers. The cops were almost mechanically sadistic, and the fact that they didn't even notice that a crowd was watching and following them--or didn't care--indicated something else; these cops felt thoroughly justified in what they were doing, without a single moral qualm or doubt, and without a trace of embarrassment. All of that speaks to training and I wonder what the hell their trainers told them they could legally get away with. (That relates to your point that there are lots of bad interpretations of the unPATRIOTic ACT, though I think the whole spirit of that ACT (and of the Homeland inSecurity Act) spawns those abuses.)

Earlier today, I talked with a friend of mine who is a college professor and asked her what she thought of the idea of the UCLA students rushing the cops. She is from the 60s generation but her first response was that the cops had guns. Her fear was that the cops, seeing themselves outnumbered and "attacked", might start shooting, later claiming that they thought their lives were at risk. Many more students could have been hurt or killed, and there were plenty of students around to be potential victims. I agree with her.

In the end, the students who got involved were smart not to rush the cops and risk the lives of many more students. I understand the desire to get involved. When I watched the tape again, I wanted to crawl into the frame myself and grab those sadistic cops and slam them against the wall. But I know that if I actually were to do that in this situation, the risk to the students around would have been exponentially increased. That is where I stand on this. The greatest moral good to my mind is in having the lowest number of students hurt in the least damaging way. Choosing between one student tasered (repeatedly) and a number of students tasered and possibly shot, I'd have to go for the former, although all of the options are rotten to the core.

I am proud of the UCLA students for having the presence of mind that they did have to video the incident and to stay involved, even if only verbally, and not leave.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I would not have risked escalating the violent police response for anything.

The officers in this case should be criminally tried.

[Seabiscuit]

136. Your points are all well taken in this post, and I'm inclined to agree pretty

much entirely. I didn't notice when watching the video on the net that the cops had guns. As crazily as they behaved, they may have been crazy enough to start shooting if overwhelmed. I'm certainly not advocating that anyone get themselves killed over a taser.

[Nikki Stone1]

138. Thanks. I can really understand the sense of outrage

And I think we all wanted to be able to jump in and help. I read in the LA times that one of the officers involved was former Long Beach PD and had been fired from Long Beach. He apparently had also had previous incidents at UCLA. THe thread is somewhere in GD; let me see if I can find it.

[Seabiscuit]

144. It sounds like that keystone cop has been on a downward spiral for

quite some time - demoted eventually to campus patrol and soon to hit rock bottom - out of work and bankrupted from the victim's civil suit (one can only wish).

[Karenina]

145. Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2624689&mesg_id=2624689

[Seabiscuit]

146. Thanks.

I wouldn't want that violent, arrogant, abusive jerk patrolling my neighborhood.

[Casablanca]

147. "the non-violence of the students in the video works to the benefit of the victim"

How does being told "Don't worry, the cops are coming and we're filming this for evidence." while the shit is getting kicked out of you benefit you?

How does promoting the idea that an innocent person must take the blows of thugs to keep the bystanders safe (and the cameras rolling) help the cause of a peaceful and just society?

Sorry, but one innocent person getting abused by petty tyrant thugs is too many in my book. And the idea of social justice via cameraphone and "image engineering" does not negate the moral imperative to help an innocent person in need. Because next week, it could be me, or my wife, or some other innocent person, and there may be not be a person with a cameraphone there to catch it.

If I were there, I would be saying this to others in hopes of getting one other person willing to subdue the thugs, because that's all that these animal thugs respond to. Or I'd throw a chair or a book at them to distract them and then do everything I could to deprive them of their power. There were many options beyond just standing there and filming.

[Bassic]

101. I agree, they went about it the right way.

Rushing the cops would just have given the fucking pigs who did this some undeserved credibility.

[Nikki Stone1]

106. I think you are right.

The students would have looked more like thugs had they reacted physically and the cops would have been able to point and say "See, they were all troublemakers." This way, the cops on the video look like thugs and torturers.

[bloom]

117. Good point.

Democracy Now has a segment on this today.

[Nikki Stone1]

121. Really, what are they saying?

Amy Goodman?

[bloom]

122. They showed the clip...

UCLA Police Repeatedly Taser Handcuffed Student For Refusal to Show ID, University Orders Outside Probe

Officials at the University of California in Los Angeles are launching an independent investigation into campus police officers' repeated shocking of an Iranian-American student with a Taser stun gun. The student was handcuffed the entire time. The incident was captured on video has and sparked outrage across his campus and the country....

Officials at the University of California in Los Angeles are launching an independent investigation into campus police officers" repeated shocking of an Iranian-American student with a Taser stun gun.

The incident took place last Tuesday evening in a UCLA library filled with students studying for their midterm exams. The student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad - a 23-year old senior - was in the library's computer lab. Campus police ordered him to leave after he failed to produce a student ID.

Police then handcuffed Mostafa and shocked him with a Taser gun at least five times. The entire incident was captured on video by another student and has been widely seen on local TV news and the website YouTube. In the video Mostafa can be heard screaming "I said I would leave" after police repeatedly shock him with the Taser gun.

Mostafa"s attorney, Stephen Yagman, said he plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit accusing the UCLA police of "brutal excessive force," as well as false arrest. He said Mostafa initially refused to show his ID because he thought he was being singled out because of his Middle Eastern appearance. Mostafa is of Iranian descent but is a U.S. citizen by birth and a resident of Los Angeles. <more> .

Here are the transcripts:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/20/1448245

[Nikki Stone1]

127. Thank you. I am so glad they are covering this

I watched the video again today and it's just amazing how mechanically brutal the cops were.

[patrick t. cakes]

133. i think your over romanticizing

the reaction of the students.

they seemed rather docile, confused and scared.
anybody with a camera would have recorded what was going on.
most people would have got closer. was the kid to scared to get closer?
and i dont think long hours studying had anything to do with it.
who knows how long anyone of those kids were in there before the
attack. i imagine just as many had just arrived as had been there for hours.

had i been in that situation i would hope id have the courage to help
an obviously innocent student (citizen).

[Nikki Stone1]

134. Take a look at the eyewitness account I just posted on GD

It might give you some insight.

[Nikki Stone1]

131. Some links and additional info on the UCLA case

Phone video of the incident (WARNING: disturbing):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE&eurl=

Interview with the student's lawyer on Keith Olbermann:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhYCeO67fCs

Eyewitness Account:
http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/#more-246

Student newspaper article:
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38987


And this from the student organization: (It refers both to UCLA and an incident at UC Santa Cruz earlier this fall.)


UCSA Police Brutality Draft Resolution

Foaad Khosmood, Doug Jorgesen, and Tina Park, Nov. 17, 2006

Whereas the University of California Student Association is seriously concerned about recent events involving police brutality against UC Students; and

Whereas during the October 18, 2006 demonstration at UC Santa Cruz the police used batons and pepper sprays indiscriminately and without warning against students; and

Whereas multiple students sustained injuries and had to be treated on the spot for eye irritation due to pepper spray use, and at least one student’s head was bloodied from baton injuries; and

Whereas another student was dragged on the ground, sustaining cement burns and three individuals were grabbed and detained by the police for hours inside a school building; and

Whereas two students and an alumnus were charged with “resisting arrest,� and multiple felony assault charges were brought against a single African-American Santa Cruz student named Alette Kendrick; and

Whereas on November 14, UCLA Campus Police officers used their tasers several times against UCLA Student Mostafa Tabatabainejad at Powell Library and they continued even after he was handcuffed and displayed no acts of aggression; and

Whereas Tabatabinejad’s repeated cries for mercy were ignored by the police officers who continued tasering him; and

Whereas other concerned UCLA students who were present at the scene and seeking public information from the officers were threatened with violence; and

Whereas UCLA is facing a law suit stemming from excessive police force and racial targeting; and

Whereas UCSC GSA voted on Oct. 19th to urge the city and campus authorities to “drop all charges against the Santa Cruz Three� and urge UCSC Chancellor Blumenthal “not to pursue any kind academic disciplinary action toward the students who were detained,� and students at UCSC held a rally on Oct. 20th, denouncing police brutality and demanding that the charges against the Santa Cruz 3 be dropped, and on October 25, AS UCSB passed a resolution calling for an immediate investigation and expressing “solidarity with the students of UC Santa Cruz;� and

Whereas UCLA students have demanded a full investigation into the incident at the Powell Library and on Nov. 17 staged a large demonstration demanding an independent investigation, dropping of all charges and suspension of the officers involved and;

Whereas UCLA Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams has agreed to an outside investigation, however as of now there are no indications of any student involvement in such an investigation; and

Whereas the Mostafa Tabatabainejad is of Iranian ethnicity and Alette Kendrick is an African American female and circumstances in both incidents suggest racial targeting on the part of the police;

therefore be it resolved that

The UCSA demands the dropping of all legal charges and academic punishments against UC students Mostafa Tabatabinejad, Alette Kendrick, Steve Stormoen and UC alumnus Tanith Thole; and

UCSA demands the immediate suspension of all officers involved in the two incidents against whom there exists documented evidence showing use of force against students; and

UCSA demands third party investigations acceptable to and approved by student governments of the two respective campuses; and

UCSA demands that the said investigations be conducted in a professional and speedy fashion and findings be presented at the earliest available time with the final presentation not be made any later than the end of the academic year 2006-2007 and the findings of the investigation be made public and placed on the Internet; and

UCSA demands that the UC Regents authorize an additional, internal, system-wide committee be immediately formed to review Policies concerning possession and usage of weapons by University Police and Policies concerning hiring, training and performance evaluation of the conduct of University Police officers with the goal of absolutely eliminating any unnecessary use of force on campuses; and be it finally resolved that

UCSA demands that the said internal system-wide committee have guaranteed significant and meaningful student representation, including voting rights.

[Nikki Stone1]

132. And these

San Jose Mercury News, Nov. 17

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/16041532.htm

Civil rights attorney Stephen Yagman announced separately that he plans to file a lawsuit charging that the American-born Tabatabainejad was singled out because of his Middle Eastern appearance.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

National Iranian-American Council statement, Nov. 18

http://www.niacouncil.org/pressreleases/press489.asp

Eyewitnesses to the incident report that Tabatabainejad was shocked by a Taser despite being handcuffed and restrained by police. During the altercation, bystanders can be heard asking the police officers for their names and identification numbers. The video shows one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student will "get Tased too."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

KCRA News Nov. 17

http://www.kcra.com/news/10348352/detail.html

“Students from civil rights groups demanded Friday an independent investigation into the Tasering of a UCLA student who claims he was discriminated against.�


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

LA Times, Nov. 17

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-ucla17nov17,1,4599352.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california

Attorney Stephen Yagman said he plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit accusing the UCLA police of "brutal excessive force," as well as false arrest. The lawyer also provided the first public account of the Tuesday night incident at UCLA's Powell Library from the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, a 23-year-old senior.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LAist Nov. 17 (includes photographs)

http://www.laist.com/archives/2006/11/17/ucla_students_demonstrate_against_ucpd_taser_use.php

Students descended upon Kerchoff Hall in droves today at 12pm chanting against excessive force, and the need to police the police. Protest leaders demanded that an independent investigation take place instead of one by the campus authorities, and also that the officers in question be suspended during the investigation.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

LA Times, Nov. 18

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-taser18nov18,1,3826691.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage

Excerpt:

Hoping to calm the furor created when UCLA police used a Taser to subdue a student studying in Powell Library, the university's acting chancellor announced Friday that a veteran Los Angeles law enforcement watchdog would head up an independent investigation of the incident.

Excerpt:

Abrams appointed Merrick Bobb, who was a staff attorney for the Christopher Commission and currently works as the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors' watchdog over the Sheriff's Department, to handle the probe.

Excerpt:

Wearing signs reading, "I am a student, don't Taser me" and chanting, "Tasers out of UC," the protesters said it was an inherent conflict of interest for university police to handle the investigation of their own officers.

"What was done was unnecessary," said Rahmatullah Akbar, a senior majoring in psychology. "We as students don't deserve to be Tasered."

[Karenina]

142. The kids are alright!

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: