"Skin in the game" is bullshit.

[Jed Dilligan]

I have ten times more skin in the game than I ever asked for. I was against Bush and this war before he was even "elected," and yeah, I saw it coming.

If you old farts want to see us young people die for a cause, why not rally us to fight the government... Oh, that would be YOUR wrinkled skin in the game, and that's unacceptable...

They can have my dead body. I will never serve in a corrupt military to fight illegal wars. I will die before I go. Fuck that.

[The Straight Story]

1. You calling me old?

And care to elaborate some.

[Jed Dilligan]

4. You go if you want your "skin in the game"

and you're not too old. Then I'll consider following.

[upi402]

2. Are you a wealthy Republican from a family of privilege?

[Jed Dilligan]

6. Oooh yes... you've found me out.

:sarcasm:

If I was this wouldn't even worry me.

[upi402]

12. I think that's the point

Not being a smartass, but Rich Republican chickenhawk kids are the target. They are cheerleaders for war until they themselves have skin in the game.
If you are not rich enough to go to college, you have your skin in the game anyway...

Just so you're aware.

[Jed Dilligan]

16. That's BS

they own this country and will get out of it one way or another. I don't think college age chickenhawks are responsible for Bush being president, anyway.

[upi402]

35. You're so angry you are not seeing reason

I can't blame you.
And-
You're attacking someone on your side here. Not rational.
If you insist on this tact here goes.

You make a strawman argument regarding who elected Bush. Their parents have the money and provide the mechanism and the kids are just happy to follow them to the trough. You want to just piss and cry and throw your hands up? No, Rangel is calling their bluff and putting the nation on alert. I think you're the only one who is so certain it will happen. It wont. Duh. Calm down my friend, you've entered a room swinging and will need a way out now.

Yes, it's an unjust and illegal war for profit and an unfair system. We all know that. Will we stand by as you are gathered up? Hell no. And BTW, there are lots of people over 30 being killed there, with kids. That'w why I've done what I've done to end it. As I'm sure you have.

[Jed Dilligan]

48. No, what Rangel is doing is turning any young person

who happens to be paying attention against the Democratic party.

[GymGeekAus]

77. Hyperbole does not become you.

If the young people were paying attention, they'd know what Rangel was trying to do.

And that is "unite the ignorant center against the war."

[Jed Dilligan]

80. Against the Democrats, you mean. nt

[GymGeekAus]

82. I mean what I type.

Please do not be spun by a complicit media.

[Jed Dilligan]

83. This (DU) is the only media I've looked at

since this whole draft nonsense started.

Rangel's attempt to play mindgames with the electorate is bound to turn people against him, and by extension, his party--no matter whether they understand it or not. Yeah, I understand what he's trying to do... What he's doing is dangling young people over a cliff to make a rhetorical point that will be obscure to most people. It's extremely irresponsible and will ultimately backfire. Then, when we HAVE to draft people to continue the war at some point, the fingers of blame will go back to him and the party.

Believe me, I've heard the argument for what he's doing countless times, and I understand it and still think it stinks.

[GymGeekAus]

88. Why drill the spin, then?

There is a very important political discussion that we should be having right now.

Without an actual condition for victory, without any American reason to be in the region, what is it going to take to get people to discuss the underlying issues of this illegal occupation? You'd think those two facts would be enough, but alas there is a spin machine out there confusing people, yourself included.

There is so much more to talk about than spitting at a man who doesn't actually have the authority to push said draft--he's sitting on the wrong committees, he's actually done this before and voted against it, he added women to the measure knowing full well it could never get support to emerge from committee. You call it "playing mindgames with the electorate." You forget that there is a filter in the way, and that filter is where the spin comes from.

You think that this will turn people against him, and thereby the party. You forget that without the debate there is no democratic process. We need to have the discussion!

You go so far as to paint an analogy about "dangling young people over a cliff." What do you think the Bush administration is doing with our men and women in uniform RIGHT NOW? Giving an insurgency something to practice on, if you need to know.

Too obscure for most people? Well if you understand what is going on, perhaps you should take your place in the discussion and actually enlighten those people. Help them understand that the occupation itself is nothing but a money-scam. Drive home that supporting the war is not the same as supporting the troops.

GET OUR SOLDIERS OUT OF THERE. DO YOUR PART.

And then we can start the process of fixing the damage done to our military (both the larger aspect and the individual men and women who are coming home without legs and other severe disability).

[Jed Dilligan]

89. And the people then do what?

Protest? March? Sign petitions?

Will that really help? This war has lower support right now than any war in our history. What more will it take to cause politicians to do what most Americans want done?

What riles me most about Rangel is that he is shifting the blame from politicians onto the people, as if we had the power to stop the war. We don't. Congress does. If they actually represented us they would be ending the war right now and not speaking of escalation.

[GymGeekAus]

100. The people must inform each other.

And stop relying upon the purchased media to do all their thinking for them. Most of this stuff is just common sense stuff, after all.

It would also help if you figured out what powers Congress actually has in this. Might shock you. Generals and troops do not take their orders from Congress.

And again, it sure would help if you recognized which Congress was still in power at the moment. The gavel changes hands in January, by the way.

But what would help you most of all is if you stepped back and evaluated your position on Rangel. Have you investigated this Congressman? Have you looked at his record to see if it supports your assumptions about his motivations? Where is your opinion coming from? Is it a consequence of media spin itself? You are sitting in front of the most powerful information technology ever put in the hands of an electorate. Ever. Try using it.

The more informed the electorate, the more we can do. Protest, March, Sign Petitions, that's all fine and good but it's pointless without understanding.

[Jed Dilligan]

101. Congress holds the purse

That's the power.

I don't care what Rangel has done in the past--first off, he's not my Congressman--if he had singlehandedly ended segregation in the South, it would not change my opinion of what he's doing now.

I know what Congress is in power.

My interpretation of what you say: you've settled on "information" as The Answer, but I doubt disseminating information will have any more effect than waving signs or signing letters. Unless Congress cuts off funds for the war, the war will continue at least until 2009.

[GymGeekAus]

115. Yeah, that will go over well with the pseudo-informed.

Thanks for your post.

[Quantess]

102. You're right.

This won't be winning Dems any popularity points.

[JVS]

74. This bill hits more than just its target, it's like a nuke

[babylonsister]

3. "Skin in the game", I'm thinking, means a loved one who is there.

I see Rangel/the draft got your ire up. Good. Hopefully it affects more people that way. That, I believe, was his intent.
And I applaud you for not wanting to fight in this war. Young or wrinkled, it's illegal, unjust, immoral, etc. I'm wrinkled, but I'd refuse to go also.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. They can have my dead body.

Of course, if enough of us resist, maybe they'll have none of our dead bodies.

What got my ire up is DUers getting behind a draft, not some doddering politician repeating himself.

[babylonsister]

15. Get over it. We are not getting behind a draft, just the thought of one

to make people think. And no one on DU wants your dead body, 'kay?

[Jed Dilligan]

20. They sure sound like it

I was worried before the election that Dems would escalate the war to prove a point... Looks like it might be starting.

[babylonsister]

26. You were worried about Dems before the election, not rethugs?

Whose side are you on and why were you worried?

[Jed Dilligan]

29. I was worried that, if elected,

the Democratic party would sell my ass out by escalating the war. With the GOP, that was a surefire bet. I thought I had a chance with the Democrats. Was I wrong? You tell me.

[babylonsister]

36. Interesting. I don't think you have anything to worry about, but

ironic that it's all about you. You bet on the Dems so your ass wouldn't be sent to war, and now you're bummed because one rep. makes a comment. Hmmm. Gotcha.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

108. I'm not getting behind a draft

I'm getting behind getting your ire up. Yours and every other man, woman and child in this country. I'm getting behind you understanding that you employ these politicians and that you do have the fucking power. I'm not getting behind a draft but am getting behind all of the shitstirring that discussing a draft would and is causing.

I think you will find that most who are getting behind Charlie Rangel are doing so because of the above reasons.

[knowbody0]

18. my thoughts as well

:hi:

[babylonsister]

38. Ah, another voice of reason!

:hi:

[Irreverend IX]

69. If that's Rangel's intent he's a FUCKING IDIOT.

"Democrat Charlie Rangel wants to draft young people into the military." That's the sum total of what middle America will take from this story. They don't have the cranial capacity to begin to understand the backhanded point he's trying to make about poor people serving as cannon fodder. All they know is that he's asking Bush to send their kids to get blown up in Iraq, and he has a D next to his name.

[Bluebear]

7. Your message of unity and coming together is almost prayer-like.

:eyes:

[Jed Dilligan]

9. And prayer has so much fucking value,

especially when the party you voted for is talking about sending you to war.

[Bluebear]

10. Do peers of yours who didn't vote take some blame?

Or are you just targeting the elderly here?

[Jed Dilligan]

13. Well, since the draft proposal is coming from "our" side

I'd say my peers who didn't vote might hold less blame than myself.

The people I hold culpable are undraftable individuals (Rangel, certain Boomer DUers) who are eager to send me to die to make some kind of idiotic point.

[Bluebear]

19. I suggest your insulting Boomer DUers is not helpful.

Especially calling them old farts with wrinkled skin.

[Jed Dilligan]

21. If they want me in the military,

my hatred for them cannot be expressed in mere insults, so in a sense I agree with you.

Let them go and die. Pompous assholes.

[Bluebear]

23. Whatever you're talking about, reference it in your OP next time

So we know what the hell you're talking about.

[Jed Dilligan]

25. You can search, I see your star

Search on "skin in the game" in the last 24 hrs. There's your answer.

[tavalon]

110. Yeah,

you definitely need a time out, youngun'!

[babylonsister]

30. Here, Bluebear (too tough for old Jed to provide apparently):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2762839

[Bluebear]

33. Thank you kindly. nt

[babylonsister]

24. Better behave, young Jed, or I'll have to alert your ass. nt

[Jed Dilligan]

27. If someone doesn't explain to me

that these "skin in the game" threads are some kind of sick satire, it won't matter, because I will be off this site permanently if it's acceptable here to suggest I should be drafted.

[babylonsister]

32. Don't flatter yourself. To me, 'skin in the game' could mean

a daughter, son, dad, mom, any relative that is in this war. You aren't there, haven't been, and probably won't be. So chill.

[msmcghee]

59. Interesting that in the post above . .

. . you said, "And everything you've posted in this thread is about a lamebrained scheme to prop up your party on the corpses of my generation. So, we're even."

And in this post you quoted the words "our".

This is Democratic Underground. I'd think you would have said "our" party in that previous post. So, what party is your party?

Just curious.

[Jed Dilligan]

62. As of tonight, I'm not sure.

If the Democrats escalate the war and institute a draft, I doubt I will ever vote again at all.

[tavalon]

111. Mmmm

that's a helpful response.

Geez, kid, you are wound way too tight and aren't thinking straight on this issue. You may think those who are supporting this issue (not the draft but a serious discussion about the draft) disagree with you and that's okay, but thinking that they are attempting to destroy you is just a little overly dramatic. Nay, a lot overly dramatic.

[sarge43]

67. Rangel was in the army 48-52. Served in Korea

Has the Purple Heart and Bronze Star. He had some skin in the game.

[Jed Dilligan]

68. Do... I... give.... a.... shit?

He can fuck himself.

[tavalon]

109. I call bullshit

and I think you would do well to step back a bit and really think about this. You aren't thinking straight, IMO and I suppose you could say that it's because you can't think straight while we are advocating sending you to war. But we aren't, so that would be disingenuous, wouldn't it?

[ComerPerro]

17. The post he is reffering to has nothing to do with "coming together"

its essentially a demand that all us young people sign up and enlist.

Not something I really expected to read here, ever, and certainly not an idea I expected to see so widely embraced here.

until recently, that is...

[Bluebear]

22. It's always best to reference a post if you're going to riff off of it.

You, CP, meanwhile, can stay in my basement until it's all over. You ain't goin' nowhere :)

[ComerPerro]

28. I think he is referring to this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2761778

And, as far as a draft or anything like that goes...

I am not going anywhere.

I have a "pre-existing" condition (epilepsy). And if that makes it perfectly legal for companies to deny me health insurance to buy medicine, then I damn well am not going to tolerate being asked to go fight because a bunch of healthy Republicans won't.

[tavalon]

113. Two votes and 28 posts

Oh, come on! So now he's leaving DU and never voting again? Over that? :nopity: :eyes:

[Mythsaje]

8. They keep telling us that it's so the "children of the elite"

will have to serve too.

Except we know that they'll manage to sleaze their way out of it. Either they'll choose to expatriate their kids ("Little Johnny decided to go study at Oxford") or simply finagle the draft with their manipulation of the machinery of the whole thing.

And it will just give them all the warm bodies they're ever going to need to coninue their wars of imperial aggression.

[Jed Dilligan]

11. I almost threw out my arm

making a wanking gesture at the notion that ANY child of the elite will ever do anything he/she doesn't want to... unless his/her parents make them.

[spoony]

14. Yep, they always have

The idea that a draft will "even things out" is as naive as thinking that the rich don't get advantages in everyday life over commoners. Can you imagine some blue blood getting a lap dance in an officer's club while we get shot at, cursing both * and Rangel? I can.

[Horse with no Name]

31. What you don't understand Jed

Speaking for myself--I don't want you, or me, or my children or anyone in my family over there.
I want them home. I want them not to be abused.
However, speaking as a nurse who on a few occasions has worked understaffed and had to worry an entire shift about missing something important and causing harm to someone solely because I didn't have the support staff needed to assure safety.
Nobody should have to work in life or death situation without enough staff. Whether it is a nurse or a soldier.
If this evil administration is gung ho on increasing troop strength, the only ones left to go are the ones who have already been there multiple times.
That would be like expecting someone who just worked 24 hours straight to come in and help out. They are worthless and can cause more harm than good.
*IF* this war is to be continued (and that is the REAL discussion, not the draft), then you are going to have to staff it adequately.

[Jed Dilligan]

37. Sick way to go about "stopping the war"

and utterly misguided. Thanks for explaining. I thought it was another example of Boomers trying to force my generation to relive the worst of the sixties and seventies.

[Horse with no Name]

40. Fuck no.

Nobody needs to be there.
But if American's and politicians continue to stand by it--the hard fact is that we are out of troops. Who are they going to send?
This is a discussion that brings to the forefront the TRUTH about our troop numbers. It is a discussion that brings to the forefront that if we HAD to legitimately invade another country for legitimate security concerns--we couldn't effectively do it.
Our military has been run into the ground.
Obviously enlistment numbers are down.
Papers are already drawn for a specialty draft.
Something has GOT to give. My preference is the war.

[Jed Dilligan]

42. To me, it seems like playing right into their hands

Starting this "dialogue". But as long as the people advocating a draft aren't actually advocating a draft...

:eyes:

And people wonder why they say we have trouble putting out a clear message.

[Horse with no Name]

45. How many people would listen is he said he wanted to talk about the war

and that he didn't approve of sending 20,000 MORE troops over?
It would be lost in one news cycle.
However...insisting that a draft be implemented to cover those 20,000 troops...that will keep the discussion going.

[Jed Dilligan]

46. Sometimes

it's better for the party if people DON'T hear something.

[Telly Savalas]

106. Last night I posted a thread recommending we extend

this line of reasoning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2761608&mesg_id=2761608

It sank like a rock.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. I would tend to agree on principle, 100%. I don't even appreciate having to PAY for this stupid war.

I was out there protesting it before it started. Knew it was a dumb idea. Knew the reasons were bullshit. I screamed "that's a KNOWN lie" at the tv during Bush's SOTU speech where he blathered those infamous 16 words...

OTOH, a draft would presumably mean fewer shaved head twentysomething white male yahoos driving like complete idiots 90mph down residential streets in my town, blasting shitty music out the window of their flag-laden "Bad Boy" monster trucks...

:patriot:

Hmmmmmmmmm.

[OneBlueSky]

41. as someone who fought vehemently against the draft in the 60s . . .

I can't imagine anyone supporting reinstating it . . . the notion that a "fair and equal" draft can be implemented is ludicrous -- never happen . . . it will always be the poor and, to a lesser extent, the middle class who actually end up serving . . .

and if we're against war, the LAST thing we need to do is make it EASIER for BushCo to go to war . . .

[Jed Dilligan]

43. Thank you, and I'm sorry if

my post was construed as ageist.

[babylonsister]

49. Construed as? Gimme a break. Be honest.

You called us out with your insults, young man.

[Jed Dilligan]

54. Well, you were one of the ones I was talking about

(apparently, since I didn't know you when I wrote the post)

So, apology doesn't apply to you.

[babylonsister]

55. And care or respect doesn't apply to you, because you've

neither earned it or deserve it. Good luck avoiding your life and saving your skin.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

114. Then your apology

was disingenous and frankly, dishonest. You don't seem to be very thoughtful but you do seem to like to score your points. You seem pretty hotheaded and more than a little self absorbed.

[Horse with no Name]

44. The alternative is

allowing our soldiers that are already in the game no time outs...ever.
How long do you think they will last if they are in a perpetual war with no relief?
The discussion of a draft needs to be brought forth so that people can get pissed off about the war that requires a draft to sustain it.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

47. Another alternative

There is another alternative, and that is to increase the pay and benefits of the volunteer armed forces.
This would make it an attractive choice to more people and the numbers would increase.

The pay levels are really too low now and many of them have to rely on welfare to supplement their pay.
Also, more and more of them are getting into debt trouble. They need and deserve better compensation.

[Horse with no Name]

50. At one point that would have been an attractive option

However, at this point I think most would rather stay alive and work at McDonalds.
More money isn't going to recruit that many. Many of them may be poor, but they ain't stupid.
I am not sure if you are familiar with anyone in the service, but they aren't "allowed" to get in debt trouble.
They pay their bills or they go to the brig.

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

52. They still do get in trouble

I agree that it's against the rules, but it still happens. For each one in the brig (were you Navy, too?) that's one less sailor on the job, so it's still counterproductive. The predatory sales practices of credit cards has snagged a lot of servicemen and made life harder, even if they are able to pay the interest.

(edit add)
You're also right that more money would be required now that the problems are well-known.

[Irreverend IX]

71. They won't get pissed about the war...

They'll get pissed at the Democrats who want to throw their kids into the killzone.

[CarbonDate]

51. You talk pretty big.

I see you talking about leading mutinies, leading rebellions, etc. You say you've got "ten times more skin in the game" than you ever asked for.

Let me pose you the question, so I can have some perspective on where you're coming from: what have you done to end this war?

Show your hand. I'll show you mine: I'm active duty military, came in under Clinton. I participated in protests during the lead-up to the war, lobbied my senators and congressmen, and openly opposed the war among family and friends until they were sick of hearing about it from me. And then I did it some more. This was all while I was on active duty and carried the risk of disciplinary action from my superiors (particularly participating in anti-war protests while on active duty). Doesn't make me better or superior, but at least you know where I'm coming from.

So I ask again: what have you done to oppose this war? What have you risked? What skin do you have in the game? Family or friends on active duty? What?

[Jed Dilligan]

53. Friends on active duty

That enough, or you need more?

[CarbonDate]

57. Well, it tells me where you're coming from.

It doesn't tell me what you've done. I'm curious. What have you done to end the war? Participated in protests? Lobbied congressmen and senators? Volunteered on campaigns for candidates who opposed the war? Donated money to campaigns who opposed the war?

I see the passion that you bring to the table when opposing the draft. Have you applied that toward ending the war?

I'm trying not to make assumptions about your character, but you've got to give me something to work with.

[Jed Dilligan]

58. Protested--yes. Starting in 1991,

a war which I might assume you supported if you joined the USAF after the bombing of Basra and the dead babies on the front page.

Lobbied--do letters count? I'm not exactly a Washington lobbyist.

Volunteered? No. I am not a people person. I would probably be a liability, not an asset, to a campaign.

Donated? When I could.

Also--taught. Used my position as a teacher to teach draft-age kids about the realities of war--risking negative evaluation by the freeps in my classes.

If there is more I can do, let me know.

[CarbonDate]

60. You're a teacher and protested Gulf War I?

You're older than me by a sight. How are you draft age?

[Jed Dilligan]

61. I'm 32, worried (for my own sake)

about a skills draft, but much more worried about the young people I'm surrounded by every day.

[CarbonDate]

64. Ah, I see.

However, a skills draft isn't something that would be needed, from my vantage point. More than likely it would be to draft people into infantry units as "peace keepers".

This war is going to go one of two ways. Either they're going to initiate a quick withdrawl or they're going to try to stabilize the region. Stabilization would take 300,000 - 400,000 troops and 5 - 10 years to pull off. We simply don't have the numbers to do it, and that fact is only going to get worse. So either we work toward the quick withdrawl or we start thinking about how we're going to get that kind of manning. W's extra 20,000 troops ain't going to do shit.

I favor a quick withdrawl, but if we're going to stay there then a draft is inevitable. Rangel's proposal changes the discussion: instead of "stay the course" or "cut and run", it's "bring our troops home" or "send your kids".

I understand your opposition to sending more troops into that mess, and I agree with it. I hope we can come to a consensus on working as hard as we can to end the war and holding our Democratic leaders to account on ending it. I'm seeing a lot more anger about a draft than I am about the war, but allowing the war to continue is what will cause a draft to be necessary.

"Bring the troops home" or "send your kids". Those are our only real choices at this point.

[prolesunited]

76. You're not a "people person"?

Whoever gave you that crazy idea?

[Jed Dilligan]

81. The dipshits who populate society

for the most part

[TahitiNut]

98. Well, there's one that's posting a lot in this thread fer sure.

:eyes: A teacher? Not in my school district, that's for damned sure.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyawker99]

107. xxx

[neoblues]

63. Just the prospect of a draft in reality...

is sure to unite most people against this or any other war. It won't happen, but it seems to me that just facing the thought of having their own kids (for those parents who don't already have all their eligible children in the military) potentially in harm's way is a great way to unite them against the war.

No doubt there are many Republicans who'd be happy with a draft, and it's also true that the scion of the wealthy will find a way around any draft (and even if one or more of their children are drafted, they'll be assigned to a safe position). Still, if it came to it, I doubt that the Democrats in Congress would ever consider enacting any such thing. Nevertheless, the debate would be worthwhile--after all, for so many Americans, this war is just some thing they hear about on the news; misfortune for others, but no real cost to them--indeed, it doesn't even raise their taxes...

[Bluerthanblue]

65. Jed, as one who wouldn't make the cut-

I'm sick, too old, and not much value to anyone, I have to tell you that the concept of a draft bothers me more than it does you.- And I know you won't believe that, but all that really matters to me in this world, are my children. My sons- one 23, and one 13- I am all they have left, and we have been through hell and back together- My oldest will go to jail if it means that or go overseas to kill people that have done absolutely nothing to us- which would leave my 13yr old and I in an even more difficult spot than we already are- It could mean the destruction of our family, what, remains of it.
But I do believe the call for a draft- particularly one which includes the wealthy, women, and people who have 'connections'- will be a call that will gut whatever support remains for 'staying the course'.

There is a point at which throwing bodies at a death pit becomes obvious even to the most dis-associated people in the world. I marched against this war, the Persian Gulf war, the Vietnam war (and I was a pre-teen at the time)- I despise war, I despise violence- And the thought of all the people that have died for absolutely NOTHING- except 'pride'- 'vengance'- and 'arrogance' eats away at me on a daily basis.

The only thing I've done in my life here on earth that has any value, any real meaning, is to have been a mother and guide for my children, and children who have shared my home and heart- I would sooner die myself (which I'm getting closer to each day) than see any more young, vibrant, healthy young people be sacrificed to this worlds god of war....

We can't let this go on forever- "how many deaths will it take till we know, that too many people have died????" the answer my young friend has been eluding people like * and cheney, and all those so eager to send our sons and daughters off to kill and die- but they are going to have to pay the piper some day-

and I've got just enough hot air left in me to keep the bladder full, and set the drones humming.... It's time the pawns let the bishops, knights, rooks and royalty fight their own battles-

fie- on us all.

[Jed Dilligan]

66. I will respectfully disagree with one point

The only thing a Democrat calling for a draft does is turn people against Democrats. If it's that hard to stop the war without it, wait and make the administration call for a draft. People don't see the subtleties--I sure don't, when I see people in my party advocating a draft that could mean me.

[kdmorris]

78. Could mean you???

Seems to me that Bluerthanblue's children and MY children will be sent WAY the hell before you. You're 32? You will be WAY at the end of the line. You think they start the draft with 32 year old?? They don't. They start it with CHILDREN, the 18-20 year olds.

I think you are just using this to fight with people.

Oh, and another thing, as a prime example of you making assumptions without knowing any facts, tkmorris is most emphatically NOT a "wise, wise woman", you sarcastic little....

[Jed Dilligan]

79. Is that all you have to say?

And who the fuck is tkmorris?

Look up "skills draft" and get back to me.

[kdmorris]

85. I am perfectly aware of what the skills draft is

*I* qualify for it. 37 year old Computer Programmer here. And they want Computer Programmers more than they want teachers.

But I still submit to you that you are acting pretty arrogant about this. YOU are not the one they want primarily. IF they were going to have a draft (and they are NOT, even though you frame the argument as if they just signed the bill into law), they will want the younger people first (just out of college type young) YOU are not the prime target here. Neither am I. tkmorris... well he could actually be re-activated, but that's not really your business.

Who the fuck is tkmorris?? Just look up the thread. He's the one you responded to with "what a wise, wise woman" he is without even knowing what gender he was. You just ASSUMED. And he's not a woman. He's my husband.

Look up Narcissism and get back to me.

[Jed Dilligan]

86. Actually, they want people who can interpret

satellite photographs quite a lot... There are also things you don't know about me.

Upthread? LOL... I thought I was still talking to babylonsister, didn't realize I was getting tag-teamed. Oh well, you all sound alike.

[kdmorris]

90. You're not getting "tag-teamed"

I was reading his post because I tend to like reading what he has to say. I saw what you posted to bluerthanblue and responded.

I KNOW that I don't know very much about you. I don't even KNOW you. But I still believe that you are not thinking very clearly and acting pretty arrogant about this (based solely on the ignorant posts you've made on this thread).

I usually avoid this sort of thread because there is just not point trying to talk to people who are so sure they are right. Have fun hating the elderly, because it's sure THEIR fault.

Did you get that information on Narcissism? Because you, quite frankly, can't see past your own world and your own worth to ANYTHING that doesn't agree with your world view. Get over it. I'm done with this. I should have never bothered.

[Jed Dilligan]

96. I was, technically, getting tag-teamed

since I was involved in a two way dialogue and someone jumped in. The fact that he had the same avatar didn't help me notice it was a different person I was talking to.

As far as narcissism goes, I wonder why you thought "tag teamed" referred to yourself?

[kdmorris]

97. Basic misunderstanding

Not Narcissism. I thought you meant my husband and myself, not my husband and Babylonsister. That would be a matter of reading too quickly, not thinking so highly of myself that I thought you meant me. (in addition to the fact that you stated "YOU all sound alike")

Have a great day!

[Jed Dilligan]

105. Or Freudian slip?

If you can diagnose me through a computer screen... I can diagnose you!

[BurtWorm]

70. No one is asking you to die.

Rangel is only asking that you and all Americans, including Congressional representatives worried about reelection, have a real stake in any war presidents get it in their pea brains to have. If your way to react is to commit suicide, that's your choice. Others would do what many young people and their families did in the 1960s, which was to resist the war.

[Jed Dilligan]

75. We didn't have the police state then that we do now.

Resistance will mean suicide until there are enough of us. I'll be among the first to go in a skills draft and the last to go in a combat draft.

One thing is clear: the choice will be prison or death when that day comes. The police state of 2006 will not treat "resistance" as the relatively benign US government of the sixties did.

[annabanana]

103. hrmph - I might.. .. . . n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

104. Ask me to die? Why, exactly?

[Beam Me Up]

72. I agree. If we'd had a draft on 9/11, we'd be in Iran and Syria NOW.

ALL based on insufficient information:

The Bush administration and government officials, including FBI, CIA and Military, have offered no more evidence that bin Laden was behind 9/11 than they did to support that Sadam Hussain had WMD and that Iraq posed an eminent threat.

Continuity of Government was implemented on the morning of 9/11 by VP Cheney.

[FreemanJ]

73. End the war- Impeach!

This is absolutely how the young people should feel. Can you imagine growing up today with all the bullshit lies and the horrible example as our president. Why would anyone fight for more lies? They are setting us up for Iran!

check out this video-Out of Iraq-Impeach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxMWrl4zn1A

and help out
Send 500,000 impeachment letters to Pelosi by her first day as speaker Jan. 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2697215

[tkmorris]

84. Charlie Rangel doesn't want a draft

And he wouldn't even vote yes on his own bill. You DO know that, right Jed?

[Jed Dilligan]

87. Yes, and he is still an asshole.

[tkmorris]

92. I'd disagree with that assessment of Rangel

But it's ok by me that you think so.

The thing is, if you are aware that there will BE no draft, what's the point of this thread? Because I gotta tell you, it appears to be much ado about nothing, to borrow from the Bard. Actually his description of life seems apt as well.

[Jed Dilligan]

94. More than anything, it's animosity

toward representatives of older generations who feel superior to younger generations. Who accuse us of "apathy" and "lack of passion," as if all of us marching in the streets again would end this war even one day sooner. It is not the sixties anymore, one major difference being that our government doesn't give a flying fuck what we think; it just does what it wants. So when an old politician tries to shift the blame for and the burden of the war onto young non-politicians, he seems like an asshole to me.

I disagree with you--I think there will be a draft. I seriously doubt that Congress will be able to end the war before a draft is needed. We're already down almost 50,000 troops if you count the wounded. So why is a Democrat talking about a draft instead of talking about ending the war? YES, I get the subtleties, but how many will? The way most people see news, it's like he's writing DRAFT all over our party in indelible marker. Then, when the draft does come, it'll come back to haunt us--possibly leading to ANOTHER neocon president and even more wars.

At first I thought that the support for him I saw here was another example of Baby Boomers wanting to eat their young--and I'm pretty sure there is some of that. That was the original source of my anger. Now I realize that it's the weird contingent who are enthusiasts of "clever" plans to manipulate the emotions of the electorate.

What Rangel is doing is putting himself and ourselves in the position of saying, "Well, when I said I wanted a draft, what I meant is I didn't want a draft." How do you honestly think that's going to play in Middle America?

[kiahzero]

93. So he's just a hypocrite, because he's advocating for something he doesn't believe in.

I guess that makes him better? :shrug:

[JVS]

95. Maybe we could put it more kindly by calling him a "blowhard"

[madmusic]

91. Could this be a widespread reaction?

If so, it's going to backfire big time.

[Vinca]

112. Charlie Rangel has completed his mission.

He's got people talking. He's got people wondering about the fairness of it all when troops are sent back to a war zone for 3 or 4 times, a national guard unit is uprooted from East Overshoe for a second time and the news of the day is riot situations outside electronics stores. Charlie's point is that if old, white, chickenhawk men are going to start wars, they'd better be prepared to have their own on the front lines, not just the poor kids who can't find jobs anymore.