I was subject to draft. Some observations:

[trof]

In 1959 I celebrated my 18th birthday and went down to the post office and registered for Selective Service, the draft. The following month I started college and received a deferment.

What followed was a complicated story that I won't take up space with here, but eventually I lost my college deferment. This led to my joining the air national guard (in order to avoid the draft), getting my pilot's wings, and a 30+ career as an airline pilot.

Viet Nam wasn't a concern yet. That would come a little later. Anyway, I'm fairly sure that without the impetus of the draft I would never have seen the inside of the cockpit of a 747.

So...the draft was a great recruiting tool for the guard and reserves.
Since you could only be drafted into the army, it was also a good recruiting tool for navy, air force, coast guard, and maybe even marines.

In all branches of active service it tended to bring in guys (the draft only applied to men) from much more diverse backgrounds. It made a much wider talent pool available. Some who would have never considered voluntarily joining the military found they liked the life and work and remained for careers.

Call me an old mossback, but I've never been comfortable with the all-volunteer concept. Actually, I'd be in favor for some kind of volunteer service, for a year or two, for all 18 years olds. I'm sure I'll take some heat for that. I just know that in my case I was not ready for college at 18. I didn't have the sense or maturity to have a clue about what I should be doing or even what I wanted to do. I actually dropped out to join the guard. When I returned a year and a half later I had a much clearer idea of what I wanted and where I was going. The military forced me to take my first serious look at life, responsibility, and consequences for my actions.

Bottom line is, the draft was just another fact of life. You lived with it and adjusted to it as you were able to or as your circumstances might change.

[sui generis]

1. but a draft with an endless war in Iraq

means you really have to foolishly trust your government, something we have seen in the past six years is indeed the height of foolishness. The guard does not keep you out of front line war these days, so a draft would not be in defense of our country but to support pre-emptive aggression on our part.

That's the travesty of asking for a draft right now. As political grandstanding, I wish Rangel would pick some other less dangerous topic to use for fodder.

Our "volunteer" army are considered "heroes" when they die or are injured in battle. What is a non-volunteer army considered?

[havocmom]

6. The junta has banned pictures of the return of the dead

but they won't have as much luck banning the pictures of moms and dads taking to the streets all across America.

And we don't have a 'volunteer military' when there is so little future for anyone's kids but the very very rich.

[trof]

12. non-volunteer army considered "soldiers"

Personally, I think this war may never have begun if more of us had had a stake in its consequences.
If members of congress knew there was a good chance their kids and grandkids would be intimately involved I think they'd give it a lot more thought before getting us committed to another fiasco like this.

As to dead and wounded, some are heroes and some are just unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may sound cold, but not everyone who dies in combat is a hero, although our MSM and politicians try to make it sound that way. Partly, I think, to try and assuage consciences for having gotten us into this mess in the first place.

I just think about the 40 year old 1st Sergeant in a national guard unit with a family and career who never imagined he'd see combat getting blown up by a roadside bomb. It's a damn shame, and should never have happened, but where's the heroism in that?

[sui generis]

14. I completely agree - but we haven't addressed the failure of leadership

to keep us out of irresponsible wars.

I am resolutely opposed to a draft - but also from engaging ourselves in the kinds of politics that require we have a draft.

Until our government can demonstrate that we won't waste the lives of our kids on unnecessary and poorly planned wars over a pack of lies, and until conscientious objector status can be made a realistic alternative, I'll continue to be against it.

My question about heroes was rhetorical. Someone who voluntarily and knowingly puts their life in danger out of a sense of duty to his or her fellow humans is a hero, even if they live.

Everyone else is as you said, a soldier.

[prodigal_green]

22. This is Charlie Rangels' argument.

I think if more of America had a stake in this war, they would take a little more time to decide whether the president's pretense was worth it or not. And if Congress actually took its constitutional responsibility to declare war, there would be a much bigger debate as well. I have no doubt that in the case of a real national defense emergency, Americans would jump to the fore, but this imperialistic bull would not survive a single session of congress.

[Dems Will Win]

39. TOP 5 MYTHS ABOUT THE DRAFT DEBUNKED!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767636

Read it and be enlightened!

[ixion]

2. fair enough... but let me posit an alternative...

You were allowed to stay in college, you 'found' yourself in college and went on to become an expert in aerodynamics. Your work in aerodynamics changed the field forever, and you earn a place in history next to the Wright Brothers.

Now, I'm not saying that college would guarantee this, simply that it would have left open the possibility.

Just a thought.

[trof]

8. More likely a career in wholesale hardware.

The skids were greased in that direction.
But your point is taken.
We'll never know.
;-)

[Gregorian]

25. Education, the alternative draft. I like this idea.

Let's take our war oriented economy and change it to education oriented.

We already know that in an emergency we can do what we did in WW2.

But from our media on down, this society is dominated by defense. Which is a fear based economy.

Let's draft kids into college.


Can you imagine? Actually, it would look a lot like Europe.

[ixion]

37. social reformation through education has long been a core belief of mine

I think it's one of the only things that will true help make society a better place -- refocus on bettering the individual, which betters society by proxy.

Hey, it worked for Star Trek. ;-)

[smalll]

43. "Draft" them into college?

So they can sit there sullenly in their flip-flops listening to their ipods and resenting any learning their professors require them to do?

I think I'm on the anti-draft side of this battle, although I understand where Rangel is coming from. But looking at education in this country today, I have to feel that any drive to increase college admissions through more governmental assistance will do NOTHING for actual learning, EXCEPT to increase the already sky-rocketing costs.

[TaleWgnDg]

3. Ummm, if I were subjected to the draft then I'd get up and

shut the damn window! Oh, you were serious.

.

[Bjornsdotter]

4. Too bad 58,000 soldiers

...didn't have the same wonderful experience as you.

Glad it worked out for you, it didn't work so well for my neighbor.

Cheers

[Lex]

11. Yes, being sent back home in a box turned out not to be a great career

move for many.

[EdwardM]

5. The military is not for me

I am far too opinionated. I especially couldn't be a pilot. I would have to live knowing I might have killed Innocent people in a bombing raid. I would go to prison or flee the country before I would ever join the military. You might think the draft is just another fact of life that you can adjust to, but for me, it would be much different.

[inchhigh]

7. Ask not.....

" Actually, I'd be in favor for some kind of volunteer service, for a year or two, for all 18 years olds. "

I whole heartedly agree. I'm a former MP in the USAR and a former Peace Corps Volunteer. My wife was in AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps. We should expand these opportunities so that EVERYONE has a chance to make a contribution to the country.

MOD, I'm appalled that "AmeriCorps" is not in the DU spell checker.

[Codeblue]

33. I plan on trying to join the Peace Corps

But then, that's a lot different from the military isn't it? The Peace Corps, made to help less fortunate people the world over. The military, made to kill brown people.

[hobbit709]

9. To make a draft fair

it would have to be no exemptions for anything. Let's see some of these GOP kids go. I enlisted in the Air Force because in 1969 I was 19, 1-A and my number in the lottery was 98. I can guarantee that if the war-mongers' children faced the same risks, they'd be a little more reluctant to start a war they had NO intention of serving in.

[trof]

21. There ya go.

Yep, I'd have everyone go.
For at least a year.
Could be paid volunteer service at medical facilities, homeless shelters, conservation or construction projects, military, or wherever people could be put to good use.
Everybody should be stakeholders.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. You make some good points

I agree that most kids would gain from some kind of 2 year service.

[librechik]

13. Shrubbie was able to get out of the whole draft/guard thing

need I say more?

Rangel is only trying to provoke a discussion followed by a quick exit. Good for him.


Drafts SUCK!!!!

They should only be used as a threat to hypocrites.

[HereSince1628]

15. Look, we didn't get into Iraq because there was no draft.

We got into Iraq because the bloody stupid Congress gave W a green light to do it.

Having a million kids conscripted prior to that would NOT have changed a thing.

Having on hand a million kids in conscripted service would have just given Cheney, Rumsfeld, and their neocons a bigger gun with which to go to war.

A smaller standing military in peace time is a much BETTER idea than an outrageously BIGGER
standing military.

I admit I have a personal experience that biases my tolerance to this. Six years after watching the draft take my older brother, and see the military waste his life, five and a quarter years of hoping my lottery number would be high enough not to have my life go on that path, my "worry" ended when I the lottery assigned my birthday a fucking low one.

Yeah. I adjusted, my personal adjustment is well documented on my DD Form 20. And I must tell you in my opinion, no eighteen year-old needs the fucking sort of psychological adjustment kids with low draft numbers got the opportunity to undergo. What 19 year-old really needs to be learning how to cut someone's renal artery with a bayonet while dislocating their cervical vertebrae? What almost 20 year old needs to learn that a non-combat MOS doesn't protect you from trying to breathe dirt at the bottom of a slit trench filled over you by incoming rockets?

Rangel and all you who support him can take all the abstract nobel ideas about conscripted service and shelve them.

A draft won't prevent going to war, it won't prevent disadvantaged kids from scoring too low to be assigned MOS's that will move them forward in life.

Although many survive and do move forward, it just is not worth the friggin cost.

[KharmaTrain]

16. Thank You...I Lived With The Draft, Too

First, my brother tap danced his way through with college deferements and then went into the NHS to fulfill his "service" and I grew up always thinking Vietnam would be there and that if I didn't watch it, I could be stuck in some rice paddy.

The draft, more than any other issue, energized and united my generation. Since we all saw ourselves as pawn and cannon fodder in a war for profit...and a losing one at that...the common fear of being drafted took us into the streets and make our voices heard. From the opposition to the war, we also took a closer look at many other social and class injustices such as race, sex, sexual orientation and then onto the environment and other good causes.

One of the more dismaying things I've seen in this ugly war are the lack of serious, widespread protests. I'm talking about 500,000 people on the national mall demanding an end to the invasion. I'm speaking of anti-war and protest songs all over the radio, free press/underground papers that suberted the "establishment" media. While I miss the activism, I'd gladly take a quiet type and one free of any draft, but if this is what it takes to shock people awake, it's about time!

Again, thank you for sharing a reality of my life that molded my political and world view...and many others as well.

Cheers...

[HughBeaumont]

30. Uh, there WERE 500,000 people on the National Mall demanding an end. Twice.

I should know because I was AT the second one.

The problem is, the Republican/corporate-owned media corrected their mistake from the sixties and simply didn't broadcast either one. "Wasn't on TV, never happened . . ."

[TygrBright]

17. Not from me, you won't...

>>Actually, I'd be in favor for some kind of volunteer service, for a year or two, for all 18 years olds. I'm sure I'll take some heat for that.<<

I have always thought that a year or two of national service would be an excellent program for this country, if it were structured correctly. That is, if it included a range of options similar to the old CCC/WPA and the recent attempts at Americorps. If we put serious investment into creating an infrastructure that would enable young people to live and work in small groups focused on an important objective that would create something positive of benefit to communities and the nation. If it applied to everyone, with exceptions only for the severely disabled. If military service were one of the options (in the case of military service it would have to be a longer commitment, but the pay and benefits could be consequently greater.) If it resulted in those who completed service successfully getting a financial "stake" to assist them with college or the training of their choice. If it included educational and recreational activities as well as work, especially remediation for those whose basic education was inadequate.

If it applied to EVERYONE, no exceptions, everyone would still be on an equal footing within their age cohorts when it came to getting started with college, career, etc. And everyone would have a shared experience of group work and focus, and the extra maturity that results from the experience. And that "stake" to help them get started with the training or further education of their choice. And tons of additional jobs operating the Service Corps. And tons of benefits to the nation and communities in the form of parks built and maintained, public facilities improved, teachers assisted, younger kids mentored, military readiness upgraded, elderly folks looked after, arts and entertainment experiences available to communities where they wouldn't otherwise be common, etc. And young adult citizens who would already have a sense of pride in what they had accomplished and contributed to our country.

HOWEVER. That said, I think this utopian, idealistic (but very achievable) concept could NOT be implemented while people can't trust the Federal Government not to hork up everything it touches. We need to make a little progress in getting the government back under the control of the people, for the benefit of all of us, before we ask young people to make such a commitment.

regretfully,
Bright

[TahitiNut]

20. Yep. I agree.

:thumbsup:

I would probably support a postponement of national service for certain courses of study. Medicine, for example. I think a vigorous Public Health Service, in conjunction with National Health Care and National Defense, is wayyyy past due.

[doc03]

18. I was drafted and served from 1968-1970 at the time

I didn't like it but looking back I am glad I was. I was lucky and wasn't sent to Vietnam maybe if I was I wouldn't be here or wouldn't feel that way. I think there should be a draft and there should be absolutely no exceptions if they are qualified mentally and physically to do so. If we had a draft the American people would all have a stake in these unnecessary wars we keep getting into. From my experience the majority of the young people my company hires today have absolutely no work ethic and I think the military is what they need.I got one to train a couple years ago and was told he waiting at the job, anyway I get to the work site about 5 minutes later and there he is playing a game on the computer and asked me how to get on the internet. Oh, I told him we weren't supposed to be on the internet and he said who cares my uncle is (so and so) our Superintendent. The attitude we get today is, "I don't have to work" they either got their job through a Union or Company official.

[TahitiNut]

19. I was drafted in 1968 after 5 years of college deferment and 1 year occupational.

Spent nearly all (Jan-Nov) of 1969 in Viet Nam. My experience is sympatico with yours.

I continue to favor a fair and equitable draft or, even better, Universal National Service.

[electron_blue]

23. And what if you wanted to be a PhD Biologist, or something other than pilot?

Getting drafted would just about eliminate that goal for most. I have a problem with the "some kids aren't ready for college" argument, because many of them are ready, and in fact have goals beyond the bachelors, like MD or PHD and a year or two (or 10) detour would derail them.

[Beam Me Up]

24. If there had been a draft on 9/11, we'd be in Iran and Syria now.

All based on false and incomplete intelligence.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. If Rangel's point is to end the inequality in the military...

... and put the burden upon the kids of privilege too, doesn't that imply, in fact require, an end to college deferrment?

Wouldn't it also prohibit allowing people to volunteer for the national guard (ie George W) to avoid a draft?

[treestar]

31. Exactly. No college deferments; that just lets the middle class at least

put it off.

[hedgehog]

27. I know a guy who dropped out to join the service in similar circumstances

during the Viet Nam era. Somehow, he spent thirty years in the Army without ever seeing combat while the Army paid him to finish his degree and get an MBA. He had a wonderful time with the Army taking care of him and his family and making all his decisions for him. He's retired out of the Army now and is as clueless about most things as when he first went in. He's kind of disappointed about not being called back to be sent to Iraq. Oddly enough, he's not so disappointed that he's gone down and tried to re-up.

[knitter4democracy]

28. My dad was drafted in the fifties.

He built tank roads in Germany and got to see Europe. It gave him the impetus to go back to school, finish high school, go to college, and work his way through to graduate with his degree in engineering. He hated the Army, but even he says it was a good thing for him.

If we did a draft now, it would be scary, but it would be fair. The way it is now, it's not fair. You have only those from the ranks of the poor and middle class serving their nation. You have those already in serving over and over again in war zones, and they shouldn't do that many tours. With a draft, it would even things out and give the nation that wake-up call we've all been asking for.

[HughBeaumont]

29. Bully for you.

You're not everyone else. I was ready for college at the age of 17 and was fully in the mindset of going, no other option. Sorry, but I'm not into being demoralized, being treated as less than refrigerator scum, hazed, beaten, turned into a fightin' mo-sheen . . . it's such neanderthal bullshit. That life isn't for everyone, and to suggest it would do everyone a world of good is being silly.

I'm amazed that there are people on here who support a draft for real, as in not for the purposes of political nuance or getting "discussion flowing", but for serious REAL. As in "let's put the issue on the table to send ALL kids to die and hope fat bald old white men who cash in hand over fist on perpetual war don't call our bluff, because even though you may protest the war, are you willing to gamble your LIFE for it?".

Have we gone apeshit nuts all of a sudden? Does anyone have any kind of goddamned clue what modern military action is all about and how absolutely pointless and one-sided towards the rich (whether we're talking about who fights it to who profits from it) it all is?

I refuse to feed an out-of-control corporate war machine for anyone's benefit. Voters were sick of it as well; that's why we voted these war-mongering assholes OUT.

My kid isn't going to be used as a pawn for ANYone's fucking chess game. MY kid is not dying for Kellogg Brown and Root's stock price. My kid is not going to live with the nightmare of picking up his fellow soldier's remains with tongs and sandwich bags, as my friend who completed his second tour of Iraq had to. It made me absolutely ill and sad to listen to his stories. I felt blackened and saddened for the military families, my friend, the families of the soldiers who were killed in that attack, the Iraqi people who are being subject to this undeserved horridity, ALL of it.

Americans are into factoids, not nuance. To think that middle America is going to understand Rangel's little "point" is as naive as thinking that "point", as he illustrates it, would come to it's full fruition. Rich kids don't fight wars. Draft or not, they WILL get out of it. The Pierce Bushes and Paris Hiltons aren't going to see minute ONE of a boot camp.

Here's an idea. Instead of talking about putting an illegal and unjust war to the forefront, escalation, "all-inclusive drafts", "skin in the game" or whatever, why not discuss the option of PEACE and kicking America's fucked up addiction to militarism once and for all, period?

[warrens]

32. They tried to draft me during Nam

I refused all deferments, wrote fuck you on everything they sent me, and was preparing to live with family in Canada when my lottery number came up high. I might have served in your time, but not in Nam or now.

[yella_dawg]

34. The draft was a fact of life when I came of age too.

I joined to avoid the draft when my number came up "2". I was in Basic when they started pulling troops out of Vietnam.

The Vietnam war and the draft dominated my life from the time I was able to understand such things until I quit high school in my senior year to hopefully get a slot that didn't include humping an M60 through the jungle. That war, and the draft that fed it, ruled my childhood, and in a very real sense, still affects my life today. Had I finished high school and gone on to college, things would have been much different for me. I eventually got to college when I was in my thirties, but my life, before and since, has been a game of catch-up. A lot of factors have guided my life's path, but that "war" and the draft is high on the list of factors that made life more difficult than it might have been.

Fuck a bunch of draft.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. My husband was drafted

and said it was one of the best things that ever happened to him.

[Mythsaje]

36. My response

Wow. This whole draft debate has touched off a few firestorms. I don't mind, really. My handle was bare inches from being "Stormsaje." I think debate is healthy. And while some of the debate here today has made me want to tear my hair out, it hasn't genuinely angered me. More like exasperation.

That I can handle. I'm not taking it personally, so I don't have to retreat. (I don't engage in debates when I get too emotionally involved--prevents me from saying things I REALLY don't want to say).

Here it is in a nutshell.

I oppose the draft. Period. No exceptions. I think forced service is anethema to a free, open, democratic society. I don't CARE what your rationale is. Anything can be rationalized.

Make NO mistake. What we're talking about here is taking kids who are presently minding their own business (whatever it might be), dragging them through training, slapping a gun in their hand, and sending them off to kill MORE people in order to support Bushco's present War of imperialistic aggression.

The argument is that it will "level the playing field" and make EVERYONE responsible for the war. If you think that the elites won't come up with new and inventive ways to prevent their children from fighting, you're dreaming. The power and influence they have NOW is worlds away from the power and influence they had forty years ago. You have NO idea. Some of them have more money than you can even IMAGINE.

No, what it will mean is that we'll be acting in COLLUSION with their future plans to invade other countries. It won't PREVENT wars. It'll make them easier to justify.

How so? Well, we certainly won't suffer from a lack of volunteers to fight in stupid fucking wars. Need more meat for the grinder? Well, hell. Just draft some more boys. It's as easy as pushing a button. Need a reason? Bomb something of OURS. "Oh my God. They just blew up our embassy in <insert city here>."

Protests? Look like volunteers to me. Grab 'em up, say they're "aiding the enemy" and ship them off to the front lines or Gitmo. What are they going to do about it?

God, some people are suckers.

The FIRST thing people need to do when something is suggested is look at both the positive AND the negative. What's the WORSE thing that could be done with this, if someone had the chance? Never, ever assume that it's all for the good. It NEVER works out that way. Not when you're talking about the realities of power.

How people who talk about how 9/11 may have been orchestrated, and that the Diebold machines are stealing our votes, can possibly think that handing them future generations of OUR CHILDREN could ever be a good thing.

Two weeks into winning the last election and we're thinking "hell, we got everything under control."

The fuck we do.

C'mon, people. Use your heads. Trust NOTHING.

All information, regardless of source, is suspect.

[SoCalDem]

38. I have been saying this forever.. A draft casts a wide net

and "catches" thinkers, readers, artists, poets, farmers, musicians..all kinds of people.. This gives a bit of civilizing to the barbarism, and takes away the "killing club" aspect of it all

Volunteer military is a narrower proposition. My guess is that a lot of "kill-em-all" types are attracted because hey..they train you for free(even PAY you), give you a gun, fly you all over and let you kill people..

and it also attracts a lot of "dead-enders", for whom this is their last chance..

and it attracts the "religious super-patriots" who might just have a knack for getting other people around them killed..all for the glory of god..

and then there are the truly unfortunate ones who see the military ar the "only way" they can get medical insurance for their kids, or can get some college for themselves..

The "old" draft did tend to "miss" a lot of the upper-crusties, but so does the volunteer military..The emphasis on "volunteer" takes the shame away..

I am a firm believer in national service for all 18-20 year olds/..in exchange for equal time in a state college..for FREE..

Spend 2 years in national service, get 2 years college, gratis..

Boys AND girls..Got asthma, ass-boils? You can man a computer terminal digitizing data or answering phones.

NO deferrments...for anyone..

[Phrogman]

40. If the government can force you into military conscription, than you do not live in a free country.

You're just "fodder on standby".

Remember that.

[A Simple Game]

42. You may not live in a free country if you have mandatory

military service, but you also don't participate in your country either. A shared burden is a lighter burden.

Are Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, etc. free countries?

They all have mandatory military service.

[Phrogman]

44. Than they're not free countries.

I'll say it again, if you or one of your family members can be forcibly taken from your home, by the government, for the purpose of training to kill people, than you do NOT live in a free country.

Think about that.

[msedano]

41. drafted in 1968

Did my time at Ft. Ord Jan-Jul 1970, then 13 months, 2 wks 3 days, 26 hours, 32 minutes and 14 seconds (but who's counting)in Korea. The greatest adventure of my life. I flew like a bird--got blown off a mountain by a strong gust of wind--and nearly died two other times in accidents. Drafted out of an MA program owing to the interim between the involuntary draft and the lottery draft.

(Cue Alice's Restaurant) Got out of the Army, got a job, finished the MA, then eventually completed the Ph.D. One poster up above is right on, that two years out of one's life puts a serious crimp in one's life plans. Shoulda woulda coulda; it is what it is.

We should have a draft today. The draft should be 100%, AB or disabled folks, drafted to serve a capacity within their abilities and limits. McNamara had Project 100,000--welcomed trainable mentally retarded folks into armed service. If TMRs could serve during Vietnam, Repiglicans could just as easily serve during Iraq / Iran / Venezuela / Philippines / or wherever pinhead and his congressional toadies put our armed forces next.

Remember, almost every sitting elected congresshole supported Shrub's lies and warmongering.

Army pix: http://readraza.com/hawk/index.htm
Elegy: http://labloga.blogspot.com/2006/11/veterans-day-elegy.html