I have 18 and 21 year old sons. And I think Rangel is right.

[Atman]

I will do whatever it takes to make sure my boys don't get sucked into this mess, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stick my head in the sand. Rangle isn't actually looking to reinstate the draft, as anyone who has been paying attention for the last three years knows full well. He is trying to make the Yellow Ribbon Republicans to start fearing for THEIR kids' lives as I do mine. To make them realize that Muffy and Biff have as great a chance as being sent into this mess as Cletis and Jim Bob.

I fear something else more. I fear the way we're being set up, as a party, to take the fall for Bush's Viet Nam-style escalation of the war even after the people sent a very clear signal that we're done with it. So, are the democrats sitting down and talking about exit strategies now? No? No. All the talk is now about ESCALATION and EXPANSION. Total sixties flash-back. We're being told that all we need to do is send in MORE troops and commit to a LONGER stay, and then we can leave.

"This is the end, beautiful friend, the end."

.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. My sons are 20, 17 and 16

the oldest is in the Guard already... and I agree with you.

[Dems Will Win]

42. YOU'RE BOTH NOT LOOKING AT THE FACTS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767636

TOP 5 DRAFT MYTHS DEBUNKED!

[William769]

2. I agree with you 100%

Some people here just don't realize, it's not what you say but how you say it. Rangel is a master of that.

[shadowknows69]

8. A more non life threatening option

would be to make the nation go on full war footing with rations on everything from fuel to food. Someone else on DU posted a thread earlier in the week asking "Where are the victory gardens". We should have a war tax on any corporation profiting from this conflict and ALL citizens should be made to feel the war as a financial and comfort inconvenience at home. Sadly enough I think this would move to change some minds even quicker than the fat cats having to sacrifice a couple kids to keep the four SUVs and the summer home chugging along.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Excellent ideas!

If we are actually at war, then put the nation on a war footing similar to the "home front" in WW II. Institute rationing, raise taxes on luxuries such as expensive cars and pass legislation that creates a graduated property tax so that those with the most to lose in a terrorist attack (ie the rich) are paying their fair share of war related expenses.

[shadowknows69]

14. I nominate me and Techbear

for something. B-) :toast:

[hedgehog]

37. Well, there's your proof that Bush suffers from a rare variant of dyslexia

Instead of raising taxes on the ultra rich to pay for his war, he lowered them by accident!

[havocmom]

3. As usual, Atman offers sane, logical and REAL understanding

I will work a little harder today, in the cause of making Americans understand that OVERSIGHT is their responsibility. Today's effort is dedicated to your sons and hopes for a safe and wise future for them.

[Buzz Clik]

4. This is a dangerous game.

Don't try to end the war by calling the bluff of the chickenhawks. They might not blink, and your boys could end up dying in some far away place for no reason at all.

Elect competent representatives and hold them responsible for their votes. No exceptions. But don't play games with the lives of our children.

[The Count]

6. Well said. Playing with lives - it's what W did. Up to now.

[Atman]

7. I'm not playing games. My kids' lives are very real.

This discussion NEEDS to happen now that the democrats are in power. The media is republican-owned, so expect them to be panicking about the prospect of Rangle actually succeeding where in the past he could only bluff. So they'll play it up to use against the democrats while the real tragedy is that no one is actually talking about reducing troop levels or bringing anyone home. To the contrary.

.

[Buzz Clik]

10. You see any of this as a good thing? It's goofy.

[malaise]

28. They will blink

They have no intention of putting their own kids in harm's way.

[BlueEyedSon]

41. It's already a dangerous game

[The Count]

5. I am a parent too - and I think both you and Rangel are naive

if you think sacrificing your sons will stop any wars, will bring any equity in who dies in wars. BFEE will get more canon fodder, the rich will still slink away, and by the time you'll catch on to it, it'll be too late.
It's demented posturing - their propaganda machine will have an easy job turning the tables on us on this.

[Buzz Clik]

11. exactly.

[Atman]

15. You just aren't understanding my post.

WE control what legislation makes it to Bush's desk.

We're giving Bush more cannon fodder ANYWAY, because Bush will increase troop levels ANYWAY. And that will mean the same people will get stop-lossed again, more kids who've been impacted by Bush's bullshit economic "boom" will sign up or fall prey to predatory recruiters, because they don't have the options the Yellow Ribbon Republicans have.

Please stop the condescending, insulting tone and consider what is actually happening. For real. The war is going to escalate and THAT is what will be spun against the democrats. That's going to happen. It IS happening. Attempt to understand Rangle's strategy relative to our new position of power. The whole paradigm has shifted. All he could do before was bluff. Now he can really strike some fear into the Yellow Ribbon Republicans who've enjoyed all the "benefits" of Bush's war with none of the sacrifice.



.

[Buzz Clik]

25. This is not being condescending. It's a genuine rejection of the idea.

If Rangel is not serious about instituting a draft, he should drop it NOW.

Too much is at stake. Let's not play games and waste time.

[Exiled in America]

30. Well said.

[librechik]

9. Ditto--Rangel can get us out if we let him finish his play

that's the real goal, to leave Iraq and return to a volunteer army. The Draft is just a threat to make the Pukkkes comply or else.

Thank god my 25 year old is emigrating to Australia--but I have 3 grandkids within a year or three of draft eligibility. I'm praying our Iraq commitment is history by the time the recruiters seek them out. Go Rangel! KEEP IT REAL!!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. Being a mom of a 16 year old and 19 year old son, I'm afraid of this backfiring.

[Atman]

16. The entire war has already backfired

We're ESCALATING, not cutting back, not bringing 'em home as the voters demanded. The Yellow Ribbon Republicans will go along with it, and pin the blame on the democrats, unless they fear that they, too, will be asked to contribute.

.

[Strelnikov_]

17. Irregardless Of Rangel, We Are Already On A Glide Path To A Draft

Do you really think if open warfare breaks out between the U.S. and Iran there will not be a draft?

And all it will take is a 'limited' airstrike, followed by some rogue Revolutionary Guard commanders throwing away the script that Tehran has already written (restraint) in the event of airstrikes.


We need to make future wars of choice a third rail, by attaching a Draft.

The volunteer military should be maintained at such a level to maintain a viable peacetime defense. Any authorization to deploy the military at a wartime footing shall include an authorization to draft the required number of troops to replace the peacetime contingent going to war. Upon cessation of the wartime footing, the draft will end.

Think there would have been all the flag waving enthusiasm about going to Iraq if there was a risk of little Preston or Ashley being one of the 140,000 drafted for the war?

Unless there is a built-in mechanism for immediate sacrifice, there will be politicians willing to beat the war drums and place the cost on the national credit card and the manpower burden on the economically disadvantaged, immigrants and mercenary armies.

[KittyWampus]

21. So what if we do go into Iran and Syria. Your sons will probably end up drafted anyway

But we'll be on the road to World War 3 and a lot of rich kids won't be in any jeopardy at all.

[spanone]

18. and just WHAT IF congress agrees with Rangel?????

Then takes your sons.

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. That will NEVER happen. Congress critters have children and grand children

they would NEVER EVER EVER send to Iraq, Iran or NK. There will be no Draft. Rangel is right. The only reason they (repukes) support these illegal invasions is because THEIR children don't HAVE TO GO to war because they are wealthy and can go to college and get high paying jobs. It's the poor who can't afford college who are offered THE WORLD (deceptively) if they enlist.

CONGRESS WILL NEVER PASS A DRAFT. Their children are more precious than poor people's children are.

[KittyWampus]

24. Yes, the military service takes EVERYONE'S kids. And NeoCons are already

on the road to Iran & Syria.

So the point is to force freepers of draft age to get on board knowing THEIR lives are on the line too.

[cali]

31. Not going to happen.

That's a ridiculous if, and shows little knowledge of how the Congress works. And as my mother would say:

If ifs and ands were pots and pans
and all the sea were ink,
and all the trees were bread and cheese,
what would there be to drink?

[spanone]

35. There are no ridiculous 'ifs' with these folks....IMHO

and I guess you have ALL THE KNOWLEDGE OF HOW CONGRESS WORKS?

[KittyWampus]

19. Yellow Ribbon Republicans! Atman, did you just coin that phrase yourself?

It's beautiful! It says a lot in a few words.

[Atman]

22. I think I did, but I'm not sure

I was trying to think of the name of the group that was bantered around months before the election...Yellow Elephants or something. When I couldn't, I thought "Yellow Ribbon Republicans" seemed to fit even better. So if I did...cool! If not, it's still a great descriptor. Thanks for noticing!

:hi:

.

[progressoid]

27. Damn! "Yellow Ribbon Republicans" is the PERFECT descriptor!

I'm going to need that for upcoming holiday arguments.

[seabeyond]

23. i have two younger boys, but i agree. they will go to jail first

but.... i agree with rangel. not that i want to see it pass.

[elehhhhna]

29. Jail, hell. PM me if the time comes.

We'll start a dammned underground railroad and they'll go offshore.

[seabeyond]

32. lol lol. we have a place in canada, brother owns land and el salvador

lol. but i will keep in touch if/when cause i am a believer the girls should be a part of it too, wink

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

36. Canada won't work. There is an extradition treaty in place between Canada

and the US now. I've already thought of that for my kids.

[elehhhhna]

38. I've got 3 options for the gals:

Holland, Ireland, and the longshot--Australia.

Probably not necessary since the Frikkin States never bothered passing that ERA, huh?

On another but relevent note, a very smart Nigerian man said to me on Saturday: " I've lived through hell in my own country. I will stay here and die as a DEMOCRAT. There is nowhere else to go." Rocked me to the core.

[seabeyond]

39. wow, huh. i hear ya with the man. true

i think as missed up as the u.s. is getting, still, i like. lol

[KharmaTrain]

26. My Plane Ride From LA...

I have a 19 year old son...and I fear for him getting sucked into this ugly war for profit and would dread having to see him face the hard choices a re-instituted draft would mean. While I could shelter him away, it still would be one I would regret but do to protect the ones I love.

What does bug me about those who are getting out of joint on this issue are the poor and mis-informed who have been sucked into this mess and have had to return to this nightmare.

Two years ago, I was on a flight from LA to Chicago. Next to me was a young man in a uniform...he was looked sharp and scared. Along the way I learned he was 18 years old and lived in East LA...he was on his way to Great Lakes to begin a stint in the Navy. I jokingly told him, hopefully they won't need the Navy in Iraq and he said "so do I". That broke the ice as I asked him why he had chosen to go into the Navy. Even though he had graduated High School (no small accomplishment in his neighborhood), he couldn't even afford the tuition for a JC and that going into the military not only would give him opportunities but also help his family through his paycheck. He went on to say, he could stay in the bario and face being gunned down there or take his chances in Iraq. I gave him my card when we landed and asked him to keep in touch with me. I got an email about a month later saying how he'd been enjoying his stay at Great Lakes and that he'd be moving on, but didn't say where and I hope he's ok and that one day he'll find my card and email me again.

For those who dread what this war could mean to their kids, may I strongly suggest a visit to a nearby VA hosptial. Bring some books, DVDs and spend an hour...if you can...showing your appreciation and thanks for their sacrafices. Make them feel they haven't been forgotten or that "we" blame them for the greed and bloodlust of their chickenshit political leaders. Most of all, we can't and won't "cut and run" from these broken bodies and souls who will need our support for the rest of their lives and ours. It may also make you work harder to find ways to force this regime to bring this ugly war to an end.

For those who didn't see Seymour Hersch yesterday, I'd strongly suggest you watch it. We have to force this regime's hand now...force it to stop playing the charade that this war is "winnable" or "noble".

Thank you for your post.

:toast:

[Gregorian]

33. That pretty much sums it up.

I wasn't going to Nam. No matter what. Period.

My neighbor left for Canada. He never came back. In a way I envy him.

No one has to go to war. But to make this out to be a temp service for those who either really want to go use a gun on other humans, or those who are desperate to earn a living, is sick and twisted.

The stakes are tilted, as they always are. It's no different in _bush's tax scheme or anything else.

I'm still shaking my head in disbelief- food insecurity.

These clowns are a joke. We have to be ingenius to find ways to expose them.

[pacalo]

34. My 22-year-old son asked me about Rangel's proposal last night

I reminded him about the scene in "Fahrenheit 9/11" when Michael Moore approached congressmen outside the Capitol about signing up their own kids for the military & how the congressmen reacted. Everyone, including those who send us to war, is gung-ho about living in a John Wayne movie until it involves them.

I think Rangel is on the right track. But my sons will not serve during a Republican presidency.

[jgraz]

40. I still have a couple years' eligibility left and I'm behind Rangel 100%

Step back and let the man work.