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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:52 AM
Original message
Rangel: My purpose is to remind we have lost thousands of best, brightest, bravest
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 10:04 AM by IndyOp
I am a 41-year-old female, so I will be drafted if Rangel's bill passes. I am not perturbed by the Congressmember. I am *discouraged* at the ongoing debate at DU when MOST people contributing to the discussion do not appear to have heard or thought about what Congressmember Rangel said.

What he did yesterday was to present a choice:
IF IRAN & SYRIA... THEN A DRAFT WILL BE REQUIRED.

So what does he want us to do?
DEMAND NO IRAN, NO SYRIA, TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ NOW!

How do I know what Rangel wants? I googled...

Below is a February 14, 2006 Press Release posted on the Congressman's website. Notice how the good Congressmember dooms the legislation to not pass, on purpose, by making the draft mandatory up to 42 years of age -->

RANGEL REINTRODUCES DRAFT BILL

WASHINGTON - Lawmaker Says Volunteer Military May be Overwhelmed by Military Challenges in Iran, North Korea and Syria requiring more troops who will have to be drafted

Congressman Charles Rangel today introduced new legislation to reinstate the military draft that will include draftees up to 42 years of age.

"Every day that the military option is on the table, as declared by the President in his State of the Union address, in Iran, North Korea, and Syria, reinstatement of the military draft is an option that must also be considered, whether we like it or not," Congressman Rangel said. "If the military is already having trouble getting the recruits they need, what can we do to fill the ranks if the war spreads from Iraq to other countries? We may have no other choice but a draft."

The bill would mandate military service for men and women between the ages of 18 and 42. Deferments would be allowed only for completion of high school up to the age of 20, and for reasons of health, conscience or religious belief. Recruits not needed by the military in any given year would be required to perform some national civilian service.

"My bill conforms to the age standards that have been set by the Army itself," Congressman Rangel said, referring to the Army's recent announcement raising the top age for Army volunteers from 39 to 42. "With volunteers now being accepted up to the age of 42, it makes sense to cap the age of draftees at 42," Congressman Rangel said.

<snip>

"The Pentagon's own researchers have reported that the military is broken and there's no plan to fix it," Congressman Rangel said. "It's not unusual for active-duty and Reserve units to see two and three deployments. Troops are spending about a third of the time on deployment, instead of a fifth of the time, as preferred, to adequately rest, train and rebuild units.

”Our military is more like a mercenary force than a citizen militia. It is dominated by men and women who need an economic leg-up. Bonuses of up to $40,000 and a promise of college tuition look very good to someone from an economically depressed urban or rural community. But, as events unfold in Iran, Syria and North Korea and become even more dangerous, at what point will the risks outweigh the attraction of money--even to the hungriest recruits?

"I don't expect my bill to pass; my purpose in introducing this legislation is for it to serve as a constant reminder that we have lost 2,200 of the best, brightest and bravest Americans, have had thousands more maimed, and countless Iraqi citizens killed.
As the President speaks of a national response involving the military option, military service should be a shared sacrifice. Right now the only people being asked to sacrifice in any way are those men and women who with limited options chose military service and now find themselves in harm's way in Iraq. A draft would ensure that every economic group would have to do their share, and not allow some to stay behind while other people's children do the fighting.

"It is shameful for high ranking government officials who have never placed themselves in harm's way to promote military solutions as a substitute for diplomacy. It's disheartening to hear the most strident champions of war in Iraq or anywhere else who have never thought or voted in Congress to send their own children to war.

"I dare anyone to try to convince me that this war is not being fought predominantly by tough, loyal, and patriotic young men and women from the barren hills and towns of rural and underprivileged neighborhoods in urban America where unemployment is high and opportunities are few. As we see who are the troops coming home wounded and killed, I challenge anyone to tell me that the wealthiest have not been excluded from that roll call.

The Republican Leadership responded to my first bill by procedurally preventing debate on the issues it raised; let us see how they try to avoid facing the question of shared sacrifice this time.


THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP RAN SCARED FROM DEBATING CONGRESSMEMBER RANGEL'S bill because it forces the nasty truths about war into the media, into the minds of all of us.


Rangel doesn't want a military draft. He wants to end the insanity of war.

:patriot:

On edit: Emphasis, grammer...
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great post, thanks!
Speaking of insanity, I think some here need to lay off the caffeine this morning.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I don't know what they've been on -- but they've been on something! (n/t)
:hi:
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. TOP 5 DRAFT MYTHS DEBUNKED!!!
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Try some decaf!
:hi:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent post.
I wish I could recommend it 10x! If only some of those who are hysterically squawking about Rangel would read this.

Thank you so much.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You are welcome! Thank you. (n/t)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. Recommend and thanks! nt
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Unfortunately, it will be spinned like Dems want your kids to be killed
And it won't be too hard to do it - because lives used in political ploys - not so moral.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. oh really?
And who would be leveling the charges, those who find it acceptable to send other people's kids to be killed?
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I guess I'm just not as afraid of RW talking points as you are. They've been spinning for years,
it's what they do. MKJ
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Most of us DU'ers understand Rangel's point but your are so correct
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 11:25 AM by INdemo
its the media spin that will cause this to be the topic of discussion in every coffee shop in middle class America.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. It's a better discussion for Americans than the "Dancing with the Stars" talk that was all I heard
last week.

This discussion is about life and death and the direction of our country. Finally. MKJ
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Of course the MSM will spin, but then it's a refreshing
change from "Democrats are weak on defense". The MSM is not the friend of the Democratic Party; just follow the money and the leash.

For the past decade or so many of us, myself included, have been saying the Democratic Party has to stop cringing and whining "Please don't hurt us. Please don't say anything nasty about us. We'll be nice." We've jumped up and down for the party to grow a backbone, address the tough issues and call the Repugs out. Rangel just has. He's thrown down.

He's a combat vet with a Purple Heart and Bronze Star. He knows that war is not a video game; it's serious stuff and always always expensive, contrary to what a former SecDef might think. He's also been in Congress since 1955, not exactly an amateur at political infighting.

Either this war is vital to national interests or it isn't. If it is, then it's time to get serious or if not, get the hell out. Either way, stop using up the army.

By the way, war is always about using lives in political ploys. Among other things war is a political ploy -- with guns.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. Fortunately, That Would BE a STUPID Move by the RNC
Know why? Because they started the fucking war they won't support. Rangel proves that..... checkmate.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Thanks, we as Democrats should not run away
scared from this debate. It's too important.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
8. kick
everyone needs to read this post.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R...and...
...could I get a link to Rangel's statement? TIA
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes! Great post and we want a link! nt
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Link here:
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny15_rangel/CBRStatementonDraft02142006.html

Sorry I didn't put it in the OP -- I know I copied it, but obviously forgot to post it. :blush:

Also - could you tell me why you have a green & white MRI as signature line pic? Just curious...

:hi:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. I don't always use the sarcasm smiley
so I put that in there to make people think twice before being offended.
The image is from a paper in the journal "Neuropsychology", click on it for more info.

I'm thinking of removing the image, it's only 8k filesize but it's kind of large pixel-wise.

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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Link here:
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny15_rangel/CBRStatementonDraft02142006.html

Sorry I didn't put it in the OP -- I know I copied it, but obviously forgot to post it. :blush:

:hi:
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Thanks! Great statement! And great thread! n/t
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. Kick!
Thanks for laying out the facts so well. I just came from another thread where folks weren't getting that Charlie Rangel's strategy is to end all fantasies of military adventurism. A draft is scary to contemplate for the young and able bodied...imagine how involved the public will be, how massive the vote will be, if anyone up to age 42 can be drafted for military service. Just another way to motivate.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
15. The Freeps are freaking out! Melting down! Go see, it's fun!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Good job E! Exactly how we would expect the party of CHICKENHAWKS
to respond. Sacrifice is GREAT -- for other people. :rofl:
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. Good research. Recommended.
:kick:
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
21. he should make speeches. Cut the war money. Impeach. Not draft.
Sorry, Charlie, it's twisted.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. He does not want a draft - he wants a *debate* - and he is getting it.
Those people who just voted for Dems and who aren't paying attention or who don't understand "stratergy" are very scared right now.

So are a whole bunch of reich-wingers who have never thought about actually having to sacrifice in a personally meaningful way.

So, Rangel waves this flag, everyone feels fear, and then the Dems lead the way out of the quagmire - pray God that Levin and Biden shut up and the Out of Iraq Now caucus takes over!

People will appreciate the Dems -- even those who are attention-span and reasoning-impaired *will* understand that the Dems worked to prevent Iran, Syria, and get us out of Iraq.

:kick:



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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. These people who just voted Dems feel taken. Rangel can't get us out the
quagmire as you dream. Not by enabling W with more cannon fodder.
How about cutting the funds? Criminalizing profiteering?
This is craven, disingenuous playing politics with our kids lives!
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #43
65. When this bill was voted on...it only had 2 votes for it.
Rangel was NOT ONE OF THOSE VOTES. He didn't vote for it.

That's NOT playing politics. It's forcing debate. This forces people to THINK. It forces them to FEEL.

This immoral and illegal WAR is something that the American people need to think about. Shared sacrifice. I just don't see how that's a bad thing.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
23. The poeple realize this, thats why they handed Dems a majority.
Now Rangel is just making them wonder why.
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
24. I understand the intent
But it makes us look like the ones who want the draft. Let's be fucking serious, rich Republican kids are NOT drafted anyway. They buy their way out or get crooked doctors to get them bullshit deferments (see Cheney and Saxby Chambliss). Even with this bill they can get their rich doctors to bullshit for them.

This is the wrong way to go about this debate. Congressional Republicans could give a fuck because rich people are not drafted. Regular folk whom might be swing voters in '08 will see us as trying to kill their kids by forcing them into war.

Do you think Independents who came out against this war strong in the primaries really like hearing that Dems plan to increase troop numbers and force people who don't want to go to be drafted to do this?

Wake the fuck up Charlie.

Rp
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Agreed. Defund. Impeach. Criminalize war profiteering. Don't draft!
he's playing politics with my kids. Just like Bush.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
26. Great post.
Thanks so much!
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Brazenly Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. Anyone who is anti-war should be pro-draft.
Bush knows this. He knows very well that the end for his fiasco would swiftly follow the institution of a draft.

Right now, American opposition to the Iraq war is greater than it was during the sixties for the Viet Nam war, judging by nearly all polls taken. So why aren't there the the widespread, huge demonstrations with massive news coverage? Why are the chickenhawks able to carry on despite the war's unpopularity?

Because there's no draft. Because as much as they disapprove of this war, it is an abstract notion for a large percentage of American families.

Now the number of families who dread getting notice that their son/brother/husband is going to Iraq is chiefly limited to those who have volunteered for service. In the sixties, everyone knew many people who lived in fear of a letter that started out "Greetings from the President of the United States." By the time it was over, pretty much everyone knew someone who had been to Nam. All too many of us knew someone who hadn't come back. Not to mention the thousands of walking casualties who came back damaged for life, those who still - 40 years later - dive under the bed if a car backfires in the middle of the night.

The real result of passing Charlie Rangel's bill would not be to expand war into other countries and let it go on endlessly in Iraq. The real result would be to wake the sleeping giant.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
60. "Anyone who is anti-war should be pro-draft"
I'm sorry but my head just exploded. What a mess, all over the computer, the keyboard, the monitor. Shit the cat is licking it. When I've cleaned up I'll try to find some way to respond to that statement of yours. Please tell me it was a joke.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. "Anyone who is anti-war should be pro-draft"
I'm going to tell that to everyone I know here in Japan. I'm sure they'll all have the same reaction you did!
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. all morning I have been responding to thread
and no where did I come close to putting together what you have written.

There SHOULD have been a serious dialogue before going to Afghanistan... what does it mean to go to war? What are we willing to sacrifice? Is the cause so great that we would be willing to go ourselves or send our children/grandchildren? What should we be doing at home to support such an effort?

We never had that conversation.

I venture to guess that the answer would have supported such a war - but the public would have been more serious, less jingoistic. The level of commitment would have been serious, sober, but high.

Now imagine the conversation in January of 2002, when the Pentagon starts pulling troops, intelligence and other resources out of Afghanistan... could they have gotten away with quietly staging (a year in advance) a second war - while crippling efforts in the first war that the public was sacrificing to support? Would the media so quickly and glibbly started up months long tv shows (before a war vote) called "Lead Up To War" per Iraq, while the public was still engaged, committed, watching, crying, grieving, etc per Afghanistan?

Whether one supported the invasion of Afghanistan or not, the rhetoric used at the time (now known to have been prepared for IRaq by PNAC - but borrowed and used to justify invading Afghanistan) - about serious rebuilding of war torn Afghanistan, serious investment in the infrastructure, establishing a real democracy... imagine that had happened - instead of moving away from any peacekeeping efforts (needed the troops to set up Iraq, ya know) - what if the rebuilding had worked early on (while there was still more support) and employed citizens of Afghanistan - where would the economic loyalties have been. I was torn per the invasion - but still can see that had a very different course been taken - a very different result would have likely occured.

Seriously - these are conversations that need to be had... especially as bushco still bellicosely and cavalierly speak in regards to Iran and Syria.

Thank you for this post IndyOp.

As always,

peace be with you.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Exactly - bellicose and cavalier speech about Iran & Syria need to be
balanced with very serious conversations about what it would mean to "spank Iran" -- as a freeper who called Sam Seder's show a few weeks back said.

I was stunned at the phrase "spank Iran." I don't know whether the term "spank" is there a result of a paternalistic attitude towards the "brown people" of the world or whether "spank" is a fraternity boy's idea of the purpose of war. Or, is it all one big video game now?

By the way - if the teachers at your school are open to it I've found a great video for high school/college students: "Beyond Good and Evil"...

Summary:

The belief that "good triumphs over evil" resonates deeply in our psyche through religious, cultural, and political discourses. It is also a common theme in the entertainment media where the struggle between good and evil is frequently resolved through violence. The potential negative impact of media violence on children has long been a public concern. It is even more troubling when U.S. military violence, both in the news and in the entertainment, is often glorified as heroic and patriotic.

Children's worlds of fantasy and reality collided when our political leaders, in response to the September 11th tragedy, simplified the complex international relationships into a fight between good and evil. The Bush administration used the narrative strategically and the news media perpetuated it with enthusiasm�pumping up patriotism and generating public support for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

This video examines how the "good and evil" rhetoric, in both the entertainment and the news media, has helped children to dehumanize the enemies, justify their killing and treat the suffering of innocent civilians as necessary sacrifice. The interviews include media scholars (Robert Jenson, Robin Andersen), child psychologists (Diane Levin, Nancy Carlsson-Paige), teachers (Merrie Najimy, Brian Wright), educators (Eli Newberger and Betty Burkes), and the children themselves.

http://www.mediaed.org/videos/CommercialismPoliticsAndMedia/BeyondGoodAndEvil

================

Take care! IndyOp



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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
31. Excellent Post ....K&R
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. Rangel has, very successfully, made the war personal. K&R
Rather than some abstract TV show of "smart bombs", statistics, "support our troops", flag waving, and "patriotism".
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I remember, with shame, watching bombs drop during the Gulf War --
You remember the films of the precision bombs "hitting exclusively military targets" -- I thought it was great that the US was reducing the weapons stockpiles of such a horrible regime.

Amiriyah Shelter


"Smarter Bombs Still Hit Civilians"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1022/p01s01-wosc.htm

BAGHDAD, IRAQ - The two American "smart" bombs worked perfectly, striking what the Pentagon had identified as an Iraqi command and control center during the 1991 Gulf War.

The 2,000-pound laser-guided bombs burrowed through 10 feet of hardened concrete and detonated, punching a gaping hole in the Amiriyah bomb shelter – and incinerating 408 Iraqi civilians.

It is considered the single most lethal incident for civilians in modern air warfare.

As US military planners prepare for another battle with Iraq, the Amiriyah bunker bombing illustrates a conundrum that has grown during the Yugoslav and Afghan air campaigns: more accurate bombs aren't necessarily reducing civilian casualty rates.

In the Gulf War, just 3 percent of bombs were precision-guided. That figure jumped to 30 percent in the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia, and to nearly 70 percent during the Afghan air campaign last year.

Yet in each case, the ratio of civilian casualties to bombs dropped has grown. Technology, say analysts, isn't the key issue. In Afghanistan, tough terrain, inability to discern combatants from civilians, and paucity of fixed military targets led to estimates of 850 to 1,300 civilian deaths. Red Cross food depots depots were hit twice, as well as some mosques, and so was a wedding party of mostly pro-US civilians last July.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thank YOU! Well said - and recommended.
:toast:
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
37. Voters spoke on Nov 7 - troops must come home
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prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks for posting this
I understood his point, as most of the burden of sacrifice is on the poor (who, coincidentally in this country, are overrepresented by minority populations).
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
39. Bam. Finally, someone puts it in perspective.
Now, to all the whiny people here who are going "OH GOD CHARLIE RANGEL IS GOING TO KILL OUR MAJORITY LET'S ALL SLIT OUR WRISTS"--can you please just put a sock in it?!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kick - so I can find this damned thread in the GD forum...
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 03:04 PM by IndyOp
:(
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Another kick
And thank you IndyOp for this thread.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
44. "Rangel doesn't want a military draft. He wants to end the insanity of war. "
I spent all day, yesterday, trying to make this point.

You put it together wonderfully.

Thank you IndyOp.

Rangel doesn't want to take my kids, your kids or the kids of right wing nut jobs ... he wants the Chimps wars of (evil) choice to stop!
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Then why be underhanded about it? he's got the power, no need to be devious.
Criminalize profiteering. Cut their money. Impeach for lies to war. It's what people voted for.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I believe he has tried ...
The only times this gets into the public debate and gets media discussion is when he proposes his bills. The last time there was a large scale public discussion was the last time Rangel proposed the same bill (in 2003). He wants chickenhawks on record with their views. By the way he didn't vote for the bill.

I don't see forcing an issue into the public discourse as underhanded. We've discussed it at great length here, public radio has discussed it; as far as I can tell, the corporate media have discussed it. People were not talking about this a week ago, two weeks ago ... a month ago.

John McCain has come out calling for increased troop levels in Iraq ... Where would he get them? My take: a vote for McCain will necessitate a draft.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. But most people will now believe a vote for Democrats gets you a draft
However right you may be about McCain, it's all too subtle for most.
I know Rangel opposes war. Always did. I just think he shouldn't pull stunts on it.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I disagree,
because the democrats are not going to deliver a draft - unless Bushco starts another war. However the discussion - and the lingering question of ... so how do we 'man' these plans, will stick in the minds of the public - IF the discussion goes on long enough to prick the public psyche. Imo, it isn't a stunt. It is serious questioning about policy that should have been done before we started a second war. While I think the answer would have been different for Afghanistan (911 was so fresh), I do not think that if people were asked whether or not Iraq was a serious enough threat to put in place a draft to pursue (eg the whole country together making the ultimate safety of our country as a priority, sacrificing equally) - the question of whether or not Iraq was really a threat to the 'ultimate safety' would have been much more deeply discussed, dissected and thus less likely to be propoganda-ed into war.

Discussions of entering war should be much more serious and somber, and much less jingoistic and marketed than they were in 2006. If this is the beginning of changing the nation's public discourse/discussion in the face of future possible wars - then it is a very worthy endeavor (not pursuit of the draft - as I stated that isn't going to happen right now - but the reality that whenever serious, long-term engagement is being planned - a draft to man it and to commit the public to it (as was the case in WWII).)
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. The truth ...
Most Americans won't remember a damn thing. Quite sad actually.

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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
51. So he's not an asshole... just an idiot.
He actually thinks the people can stop this war. We can't. We didn't stop Vietnam and we won't stop this one. We can protest until our faces turn blue but it is absolutely up to the leadership in Washington, and no one else, to stop the war.

Seems like a blame-shifting move to me. Look at you! You were so apathetic! Don't blame Bush and Congress for this war, blame yourselves!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. Oh those are not mutually exclusive.
I've come to the conclusion that rangel is both an asshole and an idiot.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #51
69. "Because you didn't have SKIN in the game!"
Apparently to some closet hawks on this site, "merely" protesting and paying exorbitant taxes to the Penta-gone isn't a valid enough rationalization to be against the war. You have to be willing to FIGHT and DIE in a god-forsaken desert for no reason against people who didn't attack you, even for a coke-crazed lunatic like Dumbya, because peace and ENDING the war is NOT an option.

When did DU become batshit insane all of a sudden?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. "willing "? "forced".
The nanny state left-authoritarians want to compel us to fight their wars for our own good.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Or to convince us to fight our own cops
Gee, I wonder who could possibly benefit from that? :eyes:
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
53. Excellent post
K&R
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
55. It's a political ploy that will do no good.
The majority of Americans who pay attention to this will have a negative view of Rangel and any Democrats who back his efforts. Why? Because it is a political ploy dealing with an issue that has potential life-or-death consequences for millions of Americans. People won't like getting all fired up only to find out the bill's sponsor doesn't even want it passed. It's a dishonest tactic, and will be seen as such.

Without a doubt, we need a national debate on all the related issues raised by Rangel. But this is not the way to do it.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I agree. This is idiotic. n/t
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
67. Pelosi and Hoyer seem to agree.
Thank Fuck! *whew*
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
57. K&R. some people need "Poison Pill" explained. sad, no?
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 08:24 PM by NuttyFluffers
makes me remember why politics is "a grown ups game." if one reads, and then thinks, maybe one can understand. oh wait, that's right, people are like pavlov's dogs, easily led by their emotions. i swear, it's so aggrivating at times that i swore off world domination. considering how stupid the american public can be, and with their gigantic military and economic machine, it'd be like a cake walk...

wake up people! this is politics 101! stop buying the RW hysteria! stop, read, think! damn...
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
58. no war
:kick:
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
59. I have understood
Rangal has meant about the draft from the first time I heard him speak on "Meet The Press" several years ago. I agree that people have to stop thinking of war as a thing someone else's kids fight. As a mom of a 16 year old, I get the heebie jeebies thinking of my daughter in the service. However, the draft hasn't happened. I will still attend my vigils and write my opinions to my Congress people and quite a few that aren't. For too many people, war is a distant disaster. When I was in 8th grade, I lost my cousin in Nam. They couldn't find his dog tags and like hundred of thousands I have felt the pain of losing a lost one.
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Yes. It's important to remember that wars are fought by women as well.
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 09:25 PM by wiley
God Bless You.
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Anser Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
63. Draft
Forced servitude to the killing machine = Pacifism.

War is Peace.

And here I thought the repubs were the masters of Doublethink

Give me a break.
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Lasthorseman Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
64. Depleted Uranium!
Go forth and Googleth!
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
68. your underlying error is...
believing politicians say what they mean.

rangel could have made the same points without a draft bill. it's dangerous playing with lives.

note also the substantial support for a full time draft/"service" being supported here on du.

what if...bush actually attacks iran as he seems to be gearing up to do? he could launch us into another war from which there is great difficulty retreating. won't a draft be necessary then, too? won't rangel's words suit that situation just as well? i can just hear rangel blustering about how we can't let the poor fight the war in iran by themselves. the rich AND the poor have to fight, it's only fair.

silly, dangerous democrats.
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Minnesota_Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
72. A kick for common sense
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