Why can't gays unite

[Strathos]

It seems to me that everyone that is against homosexuals unites and claims it, broadcasts, and takes actions against us gays, but why can't we seem to care enough to unite and stand up? Why can't we be like every other oppressed group in the past that has taken a stand, and stand up against all of these people?

If we, all those bisexuals, closeted and uncounted gays would unite with all of us that are out and proud, we'd be a force.

Why don't we care?

Will it take concentration camps and lynchings to wake us up?

[Glorfindel]

1. Concentration camps and lynchings? Probably...

it's such a shame, but most gays I know are deeply closeted and terrified of being "outed."

[Vorta]

18. re: most gays I know are deeply closeted and terrified of being "outed."

I like to learn more about this and discuss it. So please, do not assume that I mean anything other than exactly what I say here.

What does "deeply closeted" mean, and how do you know these people? Most of the closeted people I have known, fall into the category of the worst kept secret. JUst about everyone acquainted with them either knows or suspects that they are gay or bisexual.

In fairness to such people, I would say that most gay people are to some degree in the closet. Very few gay people are 100% out 100% of the time. Whether out of habit, strategy, or for personal benefit they have a rather fluid outness.

If just about everyone who is acquainted with you knows or suspects that you are gay, are you actually in the closet? What is it that you are doing?

[sniffa]

2. i think you're targeting the wrong audience

GLBT are together in common goaLs. there may be disagreements about certain poLiticians at times, but the front's about as united as one gets.

i wouLd adress your point to DU as a whoLe - too many members either don't 'get it' or out and proud homophobes.

[Vorta]

5. A large problem with the GRM is a lack of focus

The biggest problem, of course is apathy. Coming right after it is disaffection, often caused by those who claim to work the hardest in the GRM. They refuse to narrow the scope of the work to the task, insisting on interconnecting unrelated issues and forming "coalitions" which have little or nothing directly to do with gay rights.

[sniffa]

7. how true

whenever we discuss civiL rights for the GLBT community, we're aLways sidetracked by the 'free-mumia' contingent.

[Vorta]

9. LOL!

[swimboy]

12. Perfect!

:loveya: aLways wiLL

[LostinVA]

10. Thank you, sniffa -- great response

[sui generis]

3. nah - it would take a genetic test on your drivers license to unite us.

What you just said, "gays", is an abstract.

Brothers, sisters, friends, relatives of gays, and just fair minded people belong in that group of people pushing for equality too.

Also, as far as uniting economically: we're as selfish and addicted to bargains and convenience as any other American. As a community in Dallas we decided not to patronize Exxon until they changed their corporate policy about non-discrimination. Yet, in the "hood" where there is are two 7-11's and one Exxon, the Exxon store has an unending stream of "gay" patrons.

We do care. We just care more about our own convenience.

We do unite politically, if you discount those batshit kapo log cabin redumbfucks. HRC, Legal Lambda, and a myriad other organizations that trade information, funds, and support are where those fights are spearheaded.

And we can't do anything about the worst of the apathy, but that's true for every social demographic in this country. People are mostly lazy ignorant apathetic bastards who survive by being invisible.

[Vorta]

14. We could use some solid numbers.

One of the fundies' most insidious tactics is denying that we exist. They cleverly allow that we do exist, just not in any significant numbers and certainly not in the number that we believe ourselves to exist. It shouldn't matter whether we are 10% of the population or 1% of the population, assuming that civil rights is not a popularity contest- but it does matter.

I am of the opinion that the only way to find out what percentage of the population we really are, is for a panel of gay people (including gay students behind the mirror) to interview the entire sophomore class of a public high school in a regionally defined and unscrewed with district, in an affluent area. This "self identification" method is crappola, I'll decide whether you are gay or not. I actually did this on a small and unscientific scale, by pulling out my own high school yearbook. I got a figure of 6%. It would not work to use my high school yearbook now, of course, because my best friend and i go on classmates dot com and ask each other, 'Who the hell is that?" as we come across dozens of names of folks we can no longer remember, if we ever knew them.

[sui generis]

19. Well, what is "gay" anyway?

What if your gayness meter changes over time? What if it fluctuates? What if you have to constantly re-test, like your vision prescription?

Self-identification is indeed the only standard. If we have to wait for a genetic test then there is nothing that would keep society from qualifying it as a correctible genetic defect, similar to a propensity for heart disease or cancer.

It could keep you from getting married for "health" reasons, from reproducing, from holding a job, from acquiring insurance or a mortgage.

On the other hand, in a country of individuals supporting individual freedoms to do with your body as you wish, the CHOICE to be queer for year or not is much more important than whether you are genetically compelled to be queer.

Solid numbers require solid identification and in the absense of genetic markers we are left with subjective tests, and the most accurate subjective test is whether you believe yourself to be gay or not. Change out gay for "brocolli hater" here and you'll get what I'm saying.

Finally the self-id method is not crappola, but it is inaccurate. It requires a polar identification when it would be far more accurate to see how liberal people are about the idea of sex altogether. There are certainly gay people who think that if one is gay one should only ever pursue same-gender sex - which is as absurd as the obverse attitude.

The main thing: get the government out of our fucking bedrooms. out of our living rooms. out of our personal lives. Period. It really is that simple, whether you are gay, straight, asexual, or have a detachable snatch. T'aint nobody's bidness but ours.

[Vorta]

21. I done tole ya- I decide whether you are gay or not. it's entirely up to me.

[sui generis]

24. that's not a good answer

and even less scientifically supportable than "self i.d."

So anyone who isn't actively having sex with the opposite gender is gay? What about people who don't have sex and don't want sex?

Why is "sex" the measure of being gay here? That's the "brocolli" abstract I'm trying to underscore.

Are you also going to decide who the broccoli haters are?

Personally, I self identify as a cheesemaker. I am therefore blessed.

[Vorta]

28. You're right. I was being flippant.

When I went through the high school yearbook, I counted everyone as gay who I knew to be gay or bisexual during the period of junior high school to about age 22 (when I moved to California).

I called a couple of friends and we went through the book together on the telephone. Some folks we did a little more research on, like pulling up tax records to see where they currently live and with whom they live and how they hold title to their property. I also included reports from others over the years. We made a sincere effort not to decide on a single "circumstantial" piece of evidence, like "He lives on P STreet so he must be gay." On the other hand, one guy we counted as gay, that we never suspected (because he was a dork and a snotty one at that) during high school, because he was murdered by a male hustler in his apartment.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

34. You realize that's seriously creepy, right?

[Vorta]

38. Which part?

[Jamastiene]

52. Uh, the part where you are noseying around in other

people's private lives against their will. What was your reason for doing that? That is seriously creepy.

[Jamastiene]

51. OH MY GOD, I hope NOBODY at my high school EVER does

anything like that. I would be at the police station PRONTO. That's beyond stalker-like.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

33. Who made you the "decider?" And how the hell are you going to decide that?

[Vorta]

39. It was a joke, sort of.

I don't know if you witnessed the assault on me in my early memebership by those who decided that I needed to learn and profess the doctrinal view of everything gay according to some lifer at Berkeley or Bennington, but having a certain affection for playing Devil's advocate myself, I assure you I won't be on the other end of it.

For our purposes, let's simply define gay as "not entirely heterosexual" demonstrated by certain behaviors which would lead a reasonable person to conclude that one is gay or bisexual.

[Jamastiene]

50. Gay is when someone is attracted to, has a crush on, or is

in love with someone of the same sex. Simple as that.

[Vorta]

4. I think the Gay Right Movement has been remarkable

Given the lack of unity that you note, the accomplishments of the last 125 years are nothing short of amazing. If I had to put my finger on the single most dividing thing in the gay community it would be the thing which divides society as a whole the most- economics. The whole of the gay community has never shared the condition of having nothing to lose.

[MsUnderstood]

6. such self loathing so early in the morning

Its not that gays and lesbians don't care, its that the personal ramifications (legal, social, economically) are extremely intimidating when coming out.

Gays still can and do loose their children, their rights to property, their friends, their family, and their jobs for being gay.

So coming out and standing up sounds like the only right thing to do but it is also a very dangerous thing to do.

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. I am positive that there were black parents who told their children

not to "rock the boat". I am also positive that there were Jews who told their children to act as Aryan as possible... that felt the only way through was to put up with it.

I'm a straight woman and until all of us, homosexual, heterosexual, white, black and all colors, get together to stand up and say this isn't right...it won't be right.

Every other oppressed group in the past has put up with it to an extent...and it's always been not right.

[xchrom]

11. almost 100% of gay folk come into the gay community with out

the benefit of our biological family and continuity.

we come in as individuals -- many deeply unaware that gayness has a history as long and deep as that of humanity as a whole.

we come to the gay community thinking we are few or alone.

unique as it were.

we aren't of course -- but that is our experience when we first walk in the door.{or out if you're into that image}

it is only within the last 70 or 80 years that identifiable and open gay communities -- with continuity -- have begun to become visible in modern times.
interestingly one of the first largely identifiable gay communities grew up along side the harlem Renascence -- in the twenties and thirties.

so please before you post stuff like that -- THINK about the gay experience and the isolation that often accompanies the experience.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. God, your post makes me so sad.

I can't even begin to imagine not being who I am with my family. My heart breaks for the GLBT community that they don't have support like heteros do.

I hope I live long enough to see equal rights for everyone, but the bigoted shit will have to stop first and as sniffa said, some are outright homophobes.

:hug:

[LostinVA]

15. See, though... you're part of the solution

You're one of our best advocates on gay (and anti-gay) threads. That's important, sure, but what's even more important to the solution is your acceptance and understanding. What would you do if a child, a (in the future) grandchild, coworker, friend came out to you? And, they would -- because they would know they're safe with you. Physically and emotionally. And your example will influence and help shape your children's ideas and values regarding equal rights for everyone.

And making it even better? You're a Christian who truly lives the teachings of the Gospels.

[Midlodemocrat]

17. I wish only one thing for my children

That they are happy. That they find love. The mechanics don't interest me. I want them to share their lives with someone the way I do with their father.

The most tolerant people I know have kids who 'appear' to be heterosexual, at least right now and the least tolerant have children who are being tortured by their parents bigotry. It just kills me.

[xchrom]

16. well hopefully one day -- gay history won't be the taboo

subject it is today.

and parents won't ''hesitate'' when their children come out to them.

[Vorta]

20. I see a lot of out teenagers.

Just yesterday I was riding my bike around a teen hangout in St Pete, where my niece would be attending a friend's band performance. I was pretty impressed with the kids. How much support they get from family, I don't know, but amongst their own they seemed to be in good company. These are the kind of alternative type kids, goth, juggalo, whatever you want to call them it amounts pretty much to modern day Deadhead slash punk rocker.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. what do you want us to unite on?

that we want and deserve equal rights and protection? cos we are pretty united on that one.

however with a full scale war, lack of health insurance, poverty amongst children in the united states our individual priorities for what we want the democratic congress to achieve for us may be different.

[Strathos]

29. You know, I don't know

but a more serious uniting of gays and people who love gays would be amazing wouldn't. Instead of a million man march, what about a two million gays-and-those-who-love-them march? Why not take a full month and protest. Stop buying, stop participating in a society that seems to largely want to sweep us under the rug. Why not hit them where it counts, and where the republicans keep their eyes and ears peeled, their wallets.

Why not show up on the steps on Congress and tell them we're not leaving until we are protected. Right now in Tennessee you can be fired for being gay. Did you know that? I was fired for being gay. I was told there was nothing I could do about it either.

Any lawyers on here that want to help me battle a huge corporation. I doubt it.

No one wants to lose their comfort zone and more and more it seems no one wants to stand up for anyone else.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Perhaps by nature

gay folks are individualists and not tied to community norms, therefore uniting them would be like...herding cats?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. we have norms. we have community. we have solidarity. we also have compassion.

so while i fully support gay marriage, if our senators want to fight for raising the minimum wage, which will benefit the poor as their first priority, i will fully and unequivocally suppport them.


on edit: where do you get that we are individualistic with no ties to community norms?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. Please see my post below

and accept my apology for a clumsy post that did not reflect my feelings.

[LostinVA]

27. Excuse me??? What kind of statement is that?

Your very statement shows that you know zero about either any gay people in your community nor accept that they are indeed a part of YOUR community... as well as their own.

Ugh. If you don't know what you're talking about, then don't post. You are allowed to have your own opinions, but not your won facts. And, on DU, you don't have a right to post broad brush smears... although you often do.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. Wet noodle accepted

You are correct. That was inartful. I have long-time gay friends and like my straight friends, they come in different varieties and flavors. When we were younger, virtually all of them were very individualistic...all in the arts, and not inclined to be joiners. I was the only straight person in my BFA program and that was almost 40 years ago. As they have aged, they have settled down, as have I. However, they are no more inclined to join groups than I, and therefore the "herding cats" remark. In my mind that is a compliment.

By their very minority nature, in coming out, gay people have stepped out of the box as far as community norms. I read all the time on DU about the difficulties of being gay in a "heterocentric" society. That was also not intended to be a slam. To me it is a fact of life.

Now, regarding my propensity to post broad brush smears, that surprises me. I think I am one of the least smear-ful folks in these parts. So do share, in IM, and if I need to make amends I shall.

[Deja Q]

36. Fascinating

I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate assessment, but it's a fascinating one...

Additionally, please define 'community'. I need a refresher... (Context: I have my own belief of its definition, but I also know I am out of sync with how others interpret it.)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. I was defining "community"

as the entire population, not one's chosen mileau.

I've taken a few hits on this one, Toad, and they are right. My post was clumsy and came off wrong.

But truly, I have never met a gay person who was a sheep. The two to me just don't go together.

[Vorta]

40. I can't say that I find gay people to be any less conformist than your average teenager.

I give you:

Disco
Drag
The Castro clone
Dutch painters pants
#3 haircut
Leather queens
Tribal tattoos
black 501 jeans
crown moulding
track lighting/no track lighting
Pendleton shirts
Circuit clones
red pick-up trucks

[cwydro]

43. Hey!

What's this about red pickup trucks?

[MamaBear]

26. All movements are like that.

There is always disagreement about priorities, tactics, short-term goals, long-term goals ... everything.

From my vantage point -- that of a straight, single woman living in a large city in the NE, it looks to me like the GLBT community is one of the more cohesive ones, and actually has been quite effective in its relatively short history of activism. I'm measuring from the Stonewall Riots until today.

From the inside of the movement, the squabbling is always more evident and more infuriating as it seems to eat up time and resources. I think it probably has its place in helping to shape the movement for the future.

I remember thinking similarly about the Women's Movement in the 70s -- thinking we were trying to do too much too fast. I think now I was simply not ready to accept some of the "agenda."

The "enemy" -- ignorance and fear -- will never be put to rest. Best we can hope for is to create a culture where the fearful and hateful will at least not have a strong voice or any real power. The fearful and the hateful will never sleep well at night, but that's no reason to rob the rest of us of our peace.

[Strathos]

30. The thing is

You've got people that don't want to "rock the boat" and want to be "politically correct". To me politically correct seems to be a whole lot of bullshit. I think it's time to hurt some feelings and stop worrying about everyone else because most people aren't worried about gays.

[NMMNG]

35. We are united for the most part

And we do stand up and demand our rights.

Then every time we do we're told to sit under the bus so we don't cost the Dems the next election.

[GymGeekAus]

41. What an odd thread.

You wanna know why people can't agree on anything? It's because we're all individuals.

And by and large, we are ignorant and uninformed individuals who haven't bothered to sit down and figure out what we think or why. The unexamined philosophy, the unexamined belief, the unexamined soul, the unexamined life.

This is why the anti-gay movement gets better traction--they have a unifier. They have this book, or several books, in which their forebearers have claimed that the divine spirit was on their side. They have this social reaction to anything that is different from their own experience. Their reactions don't require any thinking.

Their not-thinking unites them.

Think about it. How many of the posters here on DU call themselves moderates? Centrists? Progressives? Do any of them actually know what they're saying? What is a centrist but a person who can't express the root-cause of his thinking, his axiom for belief? What is a moderate but a follower, a person who doesn't comprehend the roots of the liberal or conservative position? What is a progressive but a person who has a specific agenda, striving for a new status-quo, typically that favors themselves, at which point they can become conservative?

It takes an awful lot of work to figure out what you believe and why. I don't think most people, gay or straight or anything else, are all that interested in the process.

All change happens in spite of these roadblocks, you know.

[Strathos]

42. BEAUTIFUL!!!

I think you are absolutely correct.

I've never straddles the fence. I am a liberal. I vote only liberal and will never be swayed by a "moderate" who wants to suck up to the other side. To me that would be like joining the Log Cabin Republicans. I hate myself and I want to be a part of a group that hates themselves too. I must be accepted by everyone so I'll straddle the fence and play the game with each side.

I think it's just bullshit and people too scared to be who and what they are.

[GymGeekAus]

44. Thanks, but you might have taken it too far.

You see, in any society there will always be people who have not "thought themselves all the way through." There has to be--we are not born with complete awareness. We change constantly. We're not the same people we were five years ago. The political position one thought through all the way to the core of their being last week might not reflect who they are tomorrow. We change a lot over our lives, after all.

In addition, there is no "absolute correct" here. People are free to disagree about their base motivations. We are all individuals. And if there is a higher moral compass, none of us are privy to it with any certainty (although some claim they are).

At the root of poltics is the idea of compromise. But before you compromise, you really should discuss. It's the discussion where the best realizations happen, IMHO. And that happens on both sides. The sharing of perspectives puts everything on the table, and an honest debate leads to an honest compromise. An honest compromise leads to a "more perfect Union."

I too consider myself a liberal--a pretty hard-core one at that. Central to the liberal philosophy in my mind is the idea of pluralism: that we can all get along despite our differences. Liberalism itself, though, doesn't guarantee me any moral authority. Especially in a general sense. Each issue must still be discussed and debated on its own merits, each position must be examined for it's root motivation.

One person might hate themselves and covet acceptance from others who hate them, just like you described. But another might simply be pursuing a fully-self examined philosophy of pragmatism. Some might simply be motivated by selfishness over anything else. And just like you mentioned, many are motivated out of fear--be it fear of judgement or fear of consequence or whatever. There are all sorts of people out there. The better we understand our neighbors, the "more perfect" a Union we can create.

An examined perspective can very well lead an individual to a different conclusion than it leads you or me. There is no guarantee of hegemony through pluralism--quite the opposite in fact.

It really all depends on what beliefs exist at the root of each individual's examined moral system. Keeping in mind that we're all individuals.

[Strathos]

49. okay, I disagree

Just kidding! LOL

I think until we at least are as stubborn as rethugs and never vote out of our party, we're always going to lose. Unity is the way.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. "You have the same sexual orientation, therefore you must agree about everything"?

This strikes me as an illogical position. There are millions of homosexuals in the US; for just about any proposition you can probably find one who believes it to be true. There's not much reason they'd be any more united than any other few million peopl with one thing in common.

Being sexually attracted to members of the same sex is not a lot to have in common with someone.

What do you want them to unite on, anyhow?

[geniph]

46. Um, because we're all individuals,

and not all of us agree on which actions should be taken?

[Der Blaue Engel]

47. I don't know about closeted and uncounted gays

but as far as bisexuals are concerned, I can assure you that we are united with the rest of the LGBT community (even when some don't want to acknowledge our existence).

The sad truth is that hatred is much easier to generate and exploit than acceptance, so the haters always have much more momentum behind their campaigns of hate, but that doesn't mean that the oppressed group is not united in its fight.

Things take time. Take a look at the civil rights movement fifty years ago, and the time it took to win over allies (allies, indeed, are the only thing that can tip the balance, unless your sheer numbers as an oppressed group can overwhelm).

[WindRavenX]

48. is this "blame the victim" week on DU?

WTF is going on here?

[Jamastiene]

53. It has to be some fashionable form of a

troll invasion. Some of the nonsense I have read this week has curled my toes up and made me wonder which board I was on.