Draft to end war? I call bullshit.

[endarkenment]

If the Democratic Party wants to end the war then they need to do what the courageous Democratic Party did in 1975. They need to cut off funding for the war.

Idiocy like Mr. Rangel's vile proposal, attempts to end the war by making it too unpleasant, are manipulative and dishonest and cowardly.

Stand up and vote no for war. It is that simple.

[BlooInBloo]

1. lol! Another proponent of the to-hell-with-history viewpoint. Great.

[originalpckelly]

34. As we all know the draft ended Vietnam war promptly.

And after it was instituted the war ended immediately.

:eyes:

[endarkenment]

40. amazing isn't it?

I'm convinced that there are at least two separate realities coexisting on this planet.

[tavalon]

46. There are far more than that

Far more. The even scarier idea is that reality isn't so rock solid.

[Dems Will Win]

41. READ THIS POST OR BE FOREVER IGNORANT ABOUT THE DRAFT!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767636

TOP 5 DRAFT MYTHS DEBUNKED!

[BlooInBloo]

43. Um, "myth" means that it has to be *false* - LOL!

[bryant69]

2. ANd after shooting of their right foot, should they take aim on their left?

"Our troops are in the field right now, fighting and dying to protect America. Whether you think they should be there or not, does not enter into it. The Democrats are voting to keep our troops hungry, weaponless, and defenseless. Our troops are in danger, and the Democrats are voting to stab them in the back."

Note how it took until 1975 before the Democrats were willing to take that step - at a point when the war was already Dead. It's a bluff, because you can cut off funding but you can't actually bring them home - and if the President decides to keep them out there . . . well what happens next?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jon8503]

3. Its not bullshit, it puts the unfairness of this war out front for discussion,

if wars are to be fought, they should be fought by everyone. Everyone in this country should sacrifice, not just those that are less fortunate.

As Rangel says, if there had been a draft the power elite, wealthy & others might not have been so eager to support this war. As during Vietnam, there would have been protests on college campuses, in the streets.

You don't have to worry, this will not occur "yet". However, there are those that might tire of having to do the fighting for those who don't want to sacrifice or do it. However, agree, cut off the funds may be the only way to end this debacle.

[endarkenment]

6. 55,000 of ours 2,000,000 of theirs.

For sure the draft prevented that war. For sure. It always has. Right back to the civil war.

[Jon8503]

9. First, this is a comparison you have used as well as the other party,

you cannot compare this war or the Vientmam war to as you say all the way back to the civil war.

This war and Vietnam are both wars by choice, not like WWII, WWI or the others.

Again, this war as Vietnam would not have occurred if there had been a draft in place and Senator WarHawk's son could have been drafter or the rich and powerful elites sons and daughters were eligible.

This war is not even close to the wars you mention.

[endarkenment]

10. WWI was entirely a war of choice. Learn your history. nt.

[Jon8503]

12. you have put this same thing on the board before. I stand by my comments

and refuse to go around in circles with you on this. Will wait untill the next time you put this on again about the draft.

[endarkenment]

18. That would be the next time the vile Mr. Rangel pulls this stunt. nt.

[Kelly Rupert]

4. Great idea. I was feeling rather uncomfortable being in the majority.

[endarkenment]

5. Oh you think the draft will not kill our party? nt.

[bryant69]

7. It's a political ploy and will be seen as such

But it's a less risky ploy than your strategy.

It will wake people up to the dangers of continuing this nonsensical nonsense.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[endarkenment]

8. No it won't.

But I agree that it is at heart a dishonest and manipulative proposal. Great, vote Democratic, we are liars who only threaten to kill your children without really meaning it in order to scare you into doing the right thing, but we are too chicken shit to actually vote to end a bad war. Ok. Yes, I can get behind that.

[Beelzebud]

11. That pretty much sums it up...

I wondering what the fuck I've been supporting for 15 years.

[bryant69]

13. OK - i guess i'm doing playing soft ball

So you favor the current strategy of having the burden of war shouldered by our poorest communities? I mean why not send some harvard boys, some yalies of to die for their country as well? Or is there some reason you want poor and brown people to shoulder a disproprotinate share of the war?

Democrats don't get to vote to end the war. They get to vote to cut of spending on the war. So the poor people we have fighting this war can go hungry and bulletless. Cutting off funding is a bluff - and President Bush has already shown himself crazy enough to call that bluff and keep our troops out in the field.

Bryant

[endarkenment]

15. No I favor us not being in this war or any other bad war.

I favor a military force that has one mission: protect us from attack by our enemies, and I have a very narrow view of exactly what that means.

[bryant69]

20. Ah good answer.

We shouldn't have invaded in the first place. Here's a clue, sherlock, we are in Iraq right now and we don't have a time machine (Tom Tomorrow aside). So simply saying you don't like it, doesn't solve anything other than making you feel good inside.

[Goblinmonger]

35. I'm right with you.

As shocked as you might be, I agree 100%. We need to stop having the poor and minorities fighting our war. "I'd gladly stand up" is a bullshit line in a bullshit song. Most people who support the war do so knowing "their kind" won't have to fight in it.

[longship]

14. For Christ sakes, Rangel doesn't want a draft.

He's even acknowledged that the bill has zero chance of passing. He's only putting the bill out to have the *debate*, which he knows the Democrats will let happen.

The bill is *doomed*. But the hearings and the debate are the key.

What the draft bill accomplishes is to *focus* the debate on the very subjects which ChimpCo wants off the table. Rangel's bill forces them right back onto the table. It's a brilliant political move.

Get it now?

[endarkenment]

17. I've gotten that it is dishonest and manipulative all along. nt.

[mike_c]

19. then he should be honest and call for a debate about the merits...

...of the war. How straightforward is that? He and his colleagues are playing dishonest political games while America continues committing an international crime. If he wants to end the war then let him call for ending the war. Stop playing games.

[Goblinmonger]

36. Oh, come on

How exactly do you do that in Congress. "I move that we debate the merits of the war. Do I have a second?" "Bill dies for lack of a second."

He's forcing the discussion. Don't be so obtuse.

[Irreverend IX]

26. It makes about as much sense as voting for Nader.

What it comes down to is that the public will see Democrats proposing a draft. All the hackneyed political calculus and moral hand-wringing about the poor shouldering the burden of war doesn't enter into it. The voters will have a serious case of buyers' remorse if this thing doesn't die a quiet, unmourned death in committee.

[longship]

31. It's called rope-a-dope.

You sit back, on the ropes, and let them try to hit you in the face. But really what you are doing is setting them up for a right cross on their exposed jaw.

The GOP is terrified of this debate. Everything they say ends up discrediting every thing they've been squawking about for the past six years. Rangel just sits back chuckling and let's them defeat themselves.

This is not about the draft. It's about military unreadiness under ChimpCo. This is about superb issue framing on Rangel's part.

BTW, the last time he put forth this bill, he voted against it.

[Irreverend IX]

39. It's not about the draft?

That's not how Joe Sixpack will see it. All this subtle politicking means jack shit to average news consumers. The Republicans will happily bleat "Democrats want to draft your children!" until it becomes firmly embedded in the American consciousness, and only people who follow news as zealously as DUers do will take any notice of the debate over military readiness. It will be easy for the Repubs to spin this in their favor and very, very difficult for the Democrats to spin it in theirs. If you can think of any reasons why this story won't make voters won't freak out and elect Republicans, I'd like to hear them.

[longship]

42. And nobody on the media is saying it's about the draft, either.

They are painting the same picture that many of us here are. Rangel's trying to force the debate.

The reason? Because Rangel did this same thing some months ago and voted *against* his own bill.

Everybody can tell what this is about. Even Rangel himself is explicitly saying why he is doing this.

The Repukes can spin this any way they want. They don't want the debate and nobody believes them anymore anyway.

I have to support Rangel because this is near perfect issue framing.

[Arkana]

28. I kinda read that--and I have to say I like the idea.

It ties the draft--something NO ONE will support--with the war, making it even more unpopular.

[Lasher]

44. I need some help with that

We're in the majority now. Why do we need this stunt to focus Congressional debate on this or any other subject? Don't we control the House agenda now?

[mike_c]

16. K&R-- you are absolutely correct....

Dammit, what is WRONG with people in this party and in Congress? This is vile political equivocation. The war is an international crime, not a debating society talking point. Congress has a clear duty to end this madness, not play political games with it.

[DinahMoeHum]

21. Methinks Rangel is telling Bush to put up or shut up

the rumors about invading Iran, Syria, or North Korea.

Two major questions (thank talk-show host Randi Rhodes for this):

If Bush wants to invade these other places:

1) WHERE IS HE GONNA GET THE TROOPS?

2) Given the number of troops needed, WILL THERE BE A DRAFT?

These 2 questions must be brought up, 'cause we all know Bush is not gonna be upfront with the American public about this.

Just my 2 cents.

:shrug:

[gordianot]

24. Exactly correct. Start this discussion and Republic heads will explode.

The pukes will not go for a draft. Rangel and the Democrats are not in favor of a draft. You cannot have a war on the cheap and there is no real way to double the number of soldiers in the field. There needs to be fireworks on the floor of the House. The GOP is the chicken-hawk party call them on it as soon as possible. Withdrawl from Iraq is the only policy at this point that makes sense.

[FreemanJ]

22. I agree they must cut off funding

But Cheney has already said he's not really worried about that, and the Dems have already said they won't do it, except for Kucinich, the one politician I feel I can trust.

With the recent push for Iran, I really feel that Bush and Cheney must be impeached and removed from office ASAP!

And I think this DUer has the right idea
Send 500,000 impeachment letters to Pelosi by her first day as speaker Jan. 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2697215

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. No, no, it's about fairness!

Because the last draft was so fair, and all.

:eyes:

[endarkenment]

25. Indeed.

However the fools insist that this time it will be different and that only good wars will be fought and that the Great Middle Class, which has signed on to every piece of hideous bullshit for the last 35 years, will prevent bad wars if their kids have to go.

And ten years later they will be explaining that they really didn't mean it.

[hsher]

27. I just humbly want to know...

Very respectfully, very humbly, I simply want to know the source some DU-ers seem to be citing when they tell us they are DEAD CERTAIN Charlie Rangel is "just playing a goof on us all" and operating some subtle, Byzantine manuver doing this to force America to wake up, and Washington to bring our troops home. Nice idea, but:

1. Source. Cite the source for this. Saying "he's suggested this so many times before" is *not* a journalistic source. Show us evidence Rangel said something supporting your hypothesis.

2. Whatever happened to simply voting to bring the troops home? Now that we control the House and the Senate, wouldn't this be the traditional, time-tested Democratic way to accomplish an end to the Iraq War?

I'm sorry, but the Rangel's Just Kidding cheering section sounds to me like conspiracy theorists. To me it came out of nowhere like a storm on a summer afternoon, and I want to know, just, where are people getting that story from, what they have to support it, and if nothing, why we should believe it?

Why wouldn't the Dems simply vote the troops back home? Why this unnecessary, destructive, elaborate "secret plan" that will amount at best to nothing, and at worst to people dying, families being disrupted, the nation in an uproar, and fingers pointing at the Democrats for enacting a draft? Why should we fall on the Republicans' grenade? Why would we? The DNC knows better than that.

Rangel, in my opinion, is simply out of touch and MEANS IT.

[endarkenment]

29. Thank you.

You are far more polite than I am. Instead I am a sputtering near apoplectic boomer and near draft victim from that other bad war with kids who could be killed by Mr. Rangel's brilliant statergery. I am astounded by those who would bring back the GODDAMN DRAFT. Perhaps the only lasting legacy from the vietnam antiwar movement is that we ended conscription.

My finger is raised in Mr. Rangel's direction. I am furious.

[HughBeaumont]

30. That's what's dumbfounding ME about all of this.

The people who keep saying "what's the alternative? To continually recycle our current troops into battle over and over again? To ask our nations poor to fight over and over?"

Oh. My. Fucking. GOD.

THE ALTERNATIVE IS STOPPING THIS ILLEGAL WAR, PERIOD!

THE ALTERNATIVE IS KICKING OUR FUCKED UP ADDICTION TO MILITARISM, PERIOD!!!

Then, there would BE no more recycling troops or asking the poor/working class/everyone else to bear the burden.

Because aggressive militarism has gotten America SO far in the past 30 years, let me tell ya.

Jesus H. CHRIST.

[RethugAssKicker]

33. Thanks too!!

What gets me is why are most of the DUers who agree with Rangel so nasty about it.

[hsher]

38. True

I just don't understand the rudeness and viciousness of late. Maybe we're finally venting now that we've won. Or it's that old chestnut that once "the blips defeat the blops, they start to fight amongst each other". We'd better be careful, folks. This happened to the Republicans. Once they controlled Washington, we were too small of fish to focus the hate on and they began fighting internally amongst one another. It took six years but finally ended their reign. We look to be about to lose it in six weeks, the way this is going.

Guys, calm down! WE'RE ALL DEMOCRATS! Save the rancor for THE ENEMY!

PS, I've decided to take a Jon Stewart swipe at Charlie Rangel. You can see it here...



And I'm going to post it in General.

[RethugAssKicker]

32. Absolutely... No need for sly manipulative tactics... We're the

majority party now. Just say what you mean!!.. Rangel will me misunderstood by most and exploited by the MSM and the Rethugs!..

And the Dems here defending him, are a nasty bunch today!

[LWolf]

37. I agree. Cut the funding. Now. n/t

[B Calm]

45. Just talking about starting up the draft has the entire country

waking up!

[personman]

47. Draft to end the war?

This is so backwards I feel like my head is going to explode. I compared it to shooting a patient to cure their illness in another thread.

At least the poor people who enlist now are generally supportive of the war. Now you're proposing sending over the poor people who DON'T support the war, or criminalizing them, that's all it is. As if they weren't betrayed enough that their government has robbed them and committed atrocities in their name, now they want to send them over there to participate or jail them.

I proposing drafting the draft and war supporters and leaving us sane people the fuck out of it.

* Pasted over from another thread.