I "get" Rangel's point, but he's an idiot for making this the first issue...

[Beelzebud]

You are expecting Americans to understand political posturing and nuance.

Your average American is waking up today to read front page stories about how "now that the Democrats have the majority, look waht they want to do."

This could not come at a worst time. The right wing machine is going into overdrive to put this out there.

A lot of middle class Americans are sitting around wondering why they just gave Democrats power.

Democrats were the hope that we would END this war, not FEED it...

So while we may understand the strategy behind this, to the middle class American this looks like a PILE OF SHIT.

[nebenaube]

1. I agree! n/t

[Dems Will Win]

55. TOP 5 DRAFT MYTHS DEBUNKED!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767636

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

2. I can only hope this gets the discussion of the depletion and abuse of our military out there.

The repubs have avoided discussing a draft, because the American people won't stand for it.

Rangel is willing to take all the steaming piles of criticism that will be heaped upon him, to get this dialog opened up.

As you seem to have discerned there are many of us here on DU who disagree with your premise that Rangel is idiot, as you posted on another thread.

The war won't end till the sheeple awaken from their somnolent, celebrity gossip addled state.

This may be the wake up call, judging from posts like this. MKJ

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. If you want to talk about abuse and depletion of the military, talk about it.

Do it directly and don't sacrifice someone else's kid to accentuate the problem.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

11. But that IS the discussion. If gwb keeps the "war" option open, with Iran, N.K., Syria, et.al.

where do we get the people? gwb is driving this, with all his saber rattling.

I have seen gwb sacrifice a lot of people's children and not get this level of viscious attack. Although, it is nice to see some outrage at the potential human costs of the wars of which gwb and the cabal are so fond.

MKJ

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. You want to stop GWB?

Support the International Tribunals that will surely come for him over the Iraq War.

We need to stop being accomplices to a crime.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

14. TBC, neither of us will change each other's minds. I do appreciate your

respectful tone when debating this issue with me. Thanks for the debate. :-)

MKJ

[coalition_unwilling]

51. So only the children of the poor and working class should

be sacrificed? With elitism like that, who needs Repukes????

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Well said.

Rangel should know better. I will not back him at all because this thing will backfire in his face, and ours. And I'm not so sure that's not the purpose.

[KittyWampus]

4. you're wrong. Iraq was the top issue after corruption. People aren't stupid

they know the military is drained.

This forces theGOP to put up or shut up.

[GymGeekAus]

58. Polls I saw had corruption as the top issue....

And I think Iraq IS A CORRUPTION ISSUE....

[helderheid]

6. AGREED.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. Well, those middle class Americans are also shocked by a Dem pulling this

If nothing else, it should turn upside down a few perceptions about Democrats. The only Democrats not shocked are the ones who voted for him, since they know where he stands on this issue.

Yes, the republicans and the media are going to have a field day with this one. By the time 2008 gets here, there will have been hundreds of other things they've exploited that the Dems have done in the previous two years. I don't think this one will be standing out in anyones mind still at that time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Who's going to save Rangel's bacon?

Obviously if someone doesn't proactively go on the mainstream media shows and explain what Rangel really meant when he said what he said, only those who really know what he meant will be clear on it. You know what I mean?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

16. Seems like he should hold that responsibility

This is his personal crusade to enlighten the masses, it would make sense to let him deal with his backlash.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Yes, but the last thing we want to do now, is to show the public

that Rangel's obfuscation methods are an example of the Democrat's method of operation. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. We need plain talkers, straight forward people who will level with the American people. Why they are leaving anything to the imagination of Americans who no longer agree on anything, is beyond me.

[KharmaTrain]

38. Charlie Can Handle Himself Just Fine

First...he wins his district with over 90% of the vote. He's a Korean Vet and has been a leader in Congress for over 35 years. I first saw him when he was on the Judiciary Committee during the Nixon impeachment. I've admired the man, as well as John Conyers, ever since. He's not afraid to call it as he sees it...and he's almost always dead on.

He's a guy who can go onto Faux Noise and shut Hannity down. He's like Murtha in his ability to command attention when he says something and is able to force a debate or push an issue when it's needed. In the 80's, I give Charlie a great deal of credit in pushing the embargo on South Africa that forced changes there. It was unpopular, he was villified at the time, but the ends justified the means.

Rangel is calling for a levelled playing field here...a shared responsibility. He wants to jolt people who only see this ugly war from the comfort of their living room to think about what is going on and what the stakes really are. He want to wake people up to what it would really take to "win" this war, and is it a price this country is willing to pay...especially in their own flesh and blood.

Right now there are units that are being deployed for the third and fourth times into this meat grinder, our military preparedness is at an all time low and this regime is still rattling sabres. Rangel's trying to force their hand...my bets are the chickenshits blink...pledge them NOT to expand this ugly war and being the debate needed to quickly end this travesty.

[Irreverend IX]

52. He's a contemptible cretin.

He couldn't serve the Republicans better if he was on their payroll. He wants to play "good cop, bad cop" with the American people and put Democrats into the role of "bad cop." If he succeeds in forcing the Republicans to make some pledge to scale down the war effort, then he's painted them as the anti-war party and the Democrats as pro-war. And if he fails, we take a massive political hit anyway and the Repubs walk out unscathed.

It might be possible for this to make Democrats look good if they immediately shout Rangel down and the Repubs are left embarrassed by the lack of resources to wage the war, but it would have been better if this was never brought up. Party politics is about teamwork, not idiotic kamikaze stunts. Rangel is unassailable in his district, but if he thinks it's okay to taint other Democrats by association, he needs to be taught a lesson.

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. Tell Rangel to pick on the children of the fathers working in the defense

markets, tell him to go after the sons and brothers who survived the 9/11 disaster. If he wants to make a point, tell him to make it without there being any sliver of doubt in what he means.

[Missy M]

8. It's an issue that brings the war into a glaring reality.....

and might wake Americans up to that reality. I am glad he brought the issue up again and this time it is getting much media play. It might make the people who think the war is necessary, or support it, think again.

[Beelzebud]

10. It's not going to wake anyone up. The right wing will say "I told you so".

And we already knew this war was bullshit, so he's not "waking" any of us up...

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. That's the kind of thing you can say when you're the opposition party.

When you are given the opportunity to govern, it's a different set of rules.

Charlie, STFU.

Implement the first 100 hour promise then do the next thing on the list.

[Cameron27]

12. Rangel is wrong

and you're right, this will look like a pile of shit to the American middle class.

[ComerPerro]

17. amen to that. To your average citizen, this looks like they are getting screwed by elitist Dems

[helderheid]

22. right after voting them in to end the war, no less. I see his point but this was a bad move.

[ComerPerro]

37. exactly

[ecstatic]

56. I agree. Even those who would potentially get it, won't

because the media is RW. I hope this issue disappears, and fast!

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Excuse me, but exactly how is it "elitist" to bring back a draft that

forces children of the elite to sacrifice their fair share???

[ComerPerro]

62. because it won't force the rich to do anything

remember last time we tried a draft?

How'd that work out?

Oh yeah, I remember. The richest Americans all fulfilled their responsiblity and entered the draft, like true patriots.

Surely none of them got defferments, paid others to take their place, or used connections to get alternate assignments...

[madokie]

18. I thought from my experience so far he is waking some up who were asleep

[hippiechick]

20. its not the 'first' issue ... he's been suggesting this for 3 years!

n/t

[L A Woman]

23. It is the FIRST ISSUE since the election

...and it could not be any more fucking stupid. A Hollywood screenwriter could not come up with a more stupid fucking thing for the Democrats to even suggest.

These people were just handed power because Americans want the troops home. Not drafted. I swear, it's like Democrats take some kind of fucking "STUPID PILL" every time they get some power. Unreal.

[L A Woman]

21. OMG, I just posted those same thoughts in another thread..

I can't even believe how fucking stupid Rangel actually is and any Democrat who doesn't slap him down NOW is committing political suicide. The American public does not give a fuck about Rangel's "real motives" in bringing up this issue. All they hear is "DEMOCRATS WANT DRAFT." Indeed, that is all I am hearing on the MSM. What that also tells Americans is that Democrats have been operating out of pure hatred for Bush and in reality have always supported the war.

Jesus, I honestly cannot believe how fucking stupid the leaders of this party can be. It BOGGLES THE MIND.

Here it is again! I have been awake one hour and I have heard "Democrats Now Want Draft" three times on the news.

[Beelzebud]

25. I know how you feel... And we're being branded the loons for calling bullshit on it.

I guess being anti-war was just a political maneuver for some.

[Beam Me Up]

40. Add me to the "loon list".

All those who say there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans will use this to underscore their point.

[demgurl]

I just saw it scrolling across the bottom of my tv set!

They did not talk about ploys or getting people to talk. It said that Rangel wants the draft. We saw how stupid the public can be when it comes to * and all of his actions, now we will see that the American people do not 'do' nuance! All the people are hearing is how we want to send their children off to die. No one is getting the fact that it is all a drama to get them to talk. All they are being told is how bad our party is.

[BlooInBloo]

24. So many words. So little understanding....

... Just for example: if what you say is true, then Rangel's strat will have been SMASHINGLY successful.

:rofl:

The primary POINT is to shove the shit in the face of the stupid, bigoted American public. It doesn't matter in the least if the stupid, bigoted public understands the strat. Rangel is simply betting on people's aversion to shit being shoved in their face to get people to demand the right thing.

[Beelzebud]

26. And who is shoveling the shit? Ever hear of backlash?

[BlooInBloo]

27. Ah. You're more worried about Dems *getting properly credited* than you are...

... about simply achieving the end of an immoral war that's killed upwards of 1 million people.

Ok - now that I understand your amoral goals better, I can see where you're coming from. Thanks for clarifying.

[Beelzebud]

28. Proposing a draft won't end the fucking war.. It just makes people not trust the Democratic majority

I also don't appreciate that Dems are now using FEAR as a tactic to make people think like they do.

But what the fuck do I know. I'm just an amoral freak that actually is anti-war.

[BlooInBloo]

34. (shrug) You call it a "fear tactic", I call it explaining the consequences of war...

... and bigotry in words small enough for the average American - and the rich American - to understand. Something like "Your boy died in the service of the US-of-A, ma'am" tends to catch the attention of even the richest or most bigoted - in a way that few other things can.

The draft was the source one of the primary forces ending Vietnam. Rangel's betting that the *threat* of a draft can head off complacent-American-public jackassery (like we saw running up to the Iraq war). While I'm not certain the strat *will in fact* end up working, it's perfectly clear that it's not doomed to fail from the get-go.

[Strawman]

29. This is what happens when there is weak and divided leadership

This is the shit you get. Say what you will about the merits of the idea, it's absurd as PR for a brand new majority.

[helderheid]

30. absurd as PR for a brand new majority

Perfectly put.

[Hamlette]

31. I think it is brilliant

it puts the war front and center at just the right time; when the administration is considering sending in more troops. If Americans want to give the admin freedom to do that, they have to know a draft might be in th offing.

But then, I support a draft. In fact, I support compulsory military service for every American, like the Swiss.

When you have an all volunteer military, 100% of the military want war. With a draft (or compulsory service) you get a mix of people who will speak out against war.

If those rich bastards who finance the GOP knew their sons and daughters would get drafted and die in Iraq you know they would have read the fine print on WMD and told W if he went, no more campaign donations. Why do you think W told us all after 9/11 all we had to do is go shopping? If people have to sacrifice something, they pay attention.

Any we should start talking about tax increases and talk of them in terms of this war too. "We have to pay for the war some way and that means higher taxes, especially for the rich." They should be Ws tax increases...for his war.

[Beelzebud]

33. The Iraq war was front and center when America handed Dems the majority...

[Hamlette]

47. we should have compulsory service...always

set up like switzerland. Then we should declare ourselves neutral, get out of Iraq and everywhere else.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. Politics as a personal statement...

Inherently stupid.

It's like saying, "No matter how stupid the War on Drugs is, we must keep drugs illegal because we don't want to SEND THE MESSAGE that it's okay."

Who are these people who supposedly get messages from the government?

[OneBlueSky]

35. I've already experienced this . . . my next door neighbor . . .

is a retired NYC cop who voted for our new Democratic Congressman, John Hall, partially at my urging . . . I ran into him this morning, and he gave me holy hell about this Rangel draft thing . . . "I thought the Democrats were going to END the war!" . . .

if this draft nonsense isn't squelched pretty damn quick, I doubt that he'll be voting Democratic in the next election . . . and I imagine a lot of other people are feeling the same way today . . .

[Beelzebud]

36. Thats pretty much what I've already heard from one person too.

And the day is young. I urged a few people to vote Democratic this time.

[salin]

39. you speak as if the democrats in congress will act on Rangel's

proposal?

There were republican congressmen who introduced draft legislation (that went no where) as well. Did it have the same consequences?

The worst that could happen is the conversation is dimissed and Rangel is ridiculed whenever his committee is in the news. (That is the proposal has no support, will die beyond having some initial discussion, and will soon be forgotten by the public - except in rw talkland where it will be used to ridicule Rangel - as it won't be able to stick as a generalized ridicule b/c the dems won't act on it so it won't be a generalized dem thing.)

The best thing that could happen is that the country begins to have a dialogue about what it really means as a nation when we commit sending people to war - what are our obligations to such an effort - what are our responsibilities (eg should we really be giving huge tax cuts, while underfunding military equipments and veterans programs?)? Perhaps in a place where such discussions penetrate the thinking of mainstream America - the conversation in the future, before a war will be serious and somber rather than jingoistic and superficial.

[Straight Shooter]

41. Rangel is no idiot. n/t

[daninthemoon]

42. Trouble is, the rich connected kids will still have ways to avoid

any draft. Just ask dumbya, cheney, rumsfeld...

[HughBeaumont]

46. Combine that with the fact that the average Joe Sixpack doesn't get "nuance" . ..

. .. and you got a dangerous lightning rod that simply isn't worth being put on the table now.

[BuyingThyme]

43. I think the lack of nuance is what makes it work.

Just having the D word out there brings the issues of mass murder and imperialism into the homes of the American Idol crowd. These things are real.

[Irreverend IX]

48. Yes, he brings the D word to the American Idol crowd...

And inextricably links it to that other D word, "Democrat."

[smoogatz]

44. If you look at his district, it makes perfect sense.

NY 15 covers Harlem, a chunk of Queens, and a working-class section of LI. Rangel's district is 83% latino/black. Why shouldn't he make this issue, which is really about social justice and reigning in a belligerent foreign policy, a priority?

[RethugAssKicker]

45. AGREE 100%..... Thanks for saying it... We understand his strategy

but thinks its a stupid and dangerous one!!!

Others whos disagree, have been calling us names all day today, and saying we're too stupid to understand his strategy.

Thanks for saying it, without calling those who disagree with you an idiot!!

I HOPE OTHER DUers CAN LEARN AND DO THE SAME !!!

[LSK]

49. Rangel has been saying this for A LONG TIME

Its just the 1st time he actually got an audience.

I cant believe DU is freaking out over this. Do you guys pay attention????

:shrug:

[coalition_unwilling]

50. If you want to invade Iran, if you want to invade North Korea, if

you want to send 20,000 more soldiers to Iraq, if you want to invade Venezuela . . . you must have military conscription. Why are DUers so allergic to the truth. Rangel is a truth-teller.

[novalib]

60. "TRUTH TO POWER"

Not only is Rangel a truth-teller, but he has the COURAGE to SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER!!!

And THAT is ALWAYS IMPRESSIVE!!

GO CHARLIE, GO!!!!!

[jumpoffdaplanet]

54. Wrong.

And it's too bad someone on DU would think this.

[cboy4]

57. There's nothing wrong with debate. Stop being afraid of the

Republicans.

[novalib]

59. IT's A QUESTION OF EQUALITY!!!!!

WAR IS HELL!!!

But -- if we go to war, then EVERYONE similarly situated should GO!!!

Not just the poor kids -- but the rich kids, too!!!

A Draft makes everyone go -- poor AND rich.

It's all about EQUALITY!!!!

[rucky]

61. It's not going to pass

so what difference does it make who supports it or not?

[greenbriar]

63. UH...ITS NOT THE FIRST ISSUE, THIS IS STILL LAST YRS CONGRESS

THE DEMS TAKE CONTROL JAN.


THIS IS STILL THE REPUKES WATCH...WHICH IS WHY HE DID IT