Hey Everyone Who Doesn't Want a DRAFT...WE ALREADY HAVE ONE

[berni_mccoy]

It's called being poor.

For young people who are poor and unable to afford college, there is a way for them to make a living: Join the Military. This has been the case since the Vietnam War. The only thing is, we have MANY MANY MOORE POOR NOW. And they are being faced with the decision to take on multiple minimum wage jobs with no benefits and health-care such as Walmart or Starbucks or join the military. You are a poor, 18-year old teen who is extremely frustrated at your situation. Which route are you going to choose? Many have and will continue to choose the military.

Our military ranks are depleted and as such, I fully support a draft, as long as a few things are established:

1. Immediate Withdraw from Iraq -- nothing we do there will militarily will change the outcome at this point.
2. The draft is selective in the following order of priority for conscription:
- Sons and daughters of Federal Government officials (Senators, Representatives, Administration, Supreme Court, etc)
- Wealthiest to Poorest, no outs unless physically disabled (as disabilities are recognized by the SSA).
3. Penalties for avoiding are both financial (amount based on wealth) and prison.

If a draft like this was created, I believe it would put an end to future warmongering.

[wtmusic]

1. Thank you berni

as usual, hitting the nail on the head :thumbsup:

[Dems Will Win]

75. A draft would enable Bushco to war monger till the cows came home!

BECAUSE THE RICH AND SUBURBAN WOULD STILL GET OFF THANKS TO DOCUMENTED MEDICAL DEFERMENTS. THINK PEOPLE!

READ THIS THREAD TO GET THE TRUTH ABOUT THE DRAFT:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2767636

TOP 5 MYTHS ABOUT THE DRAFT DEBUNKED!

[mzmolly]

2. Thank you! Don't forget this admin cut student loans/educational funding.

Why? "It doesn't take a rocket scientist" as they say.

Recommended.

[xultar]

3. Exactly. Except this one doesn't include rich kids. When their kids are

affected then the wars will end.

[berni_mccoy]

6. Certainly it covers rich kids (Wealthiest to Poorest)

Establishment of Wealth would have to factor in immediate family (and no sob-stories about being disowned).

[Greeby]

4. Don't buy it

I could be considered poor, being on the dole and all. Yet I'd rather be poor than sign up for the military

[wtmusic]

You obviously have other options

Some don't.

[personman]

97. Other then self-defense, I'd rather starve than kill.

Perhaps Greeby is just giving them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't completely selfish.

[berni_mccoy]

7. Establishment of wealth would have to factor in immediate family

[Gormy Cuss]

10. We don't have the dole for healthy adult males in this country.

We also don't have national health care.
The military offers housing, heath care, and potential job skills and educational assistance. If you're an 18-yr old healthy male in the U.S. without the means to attend college and you find that most of the jobs that you qualify for are with employers who are too cheap to provide health insurance, never mind any career advancement or other benefits, the military looks like the best way out.

[Lars39]

37. It's hard to get unemployment benefits in the US.

We also have a lifetime limit of three years.

[Greyhound]

83. I intend no offense Greeby, but you have no idea what the hell you're

talking about. The fact that you live in a civilized country is wonderful for you, but you don't seem to realize that we do not. There is no dole here, we leave people on the streets to literally die of malnutrition and exposure.

[personman]

98. So they should help inflict suffering on others to avoid it themselves? nt

[Greyhound]

101. Not at all.

I don't support any draft, including the one we have that you deny. I was merely pointing out that the situation here is so different as to be incomparable to yours.

[Wickerman]

5. thanks

my sympathies also go to kids I know in area National Guard units who joined to get through school on the promise of a weekend a month. Now, they are finishing second tours in combat and are caught in the back door draft, can't get out, forced to extend, etc. School dreams are over for now, families are unsettled, businesses lost. Something has to give.

[endarkenment]

8. "Our military ranks are depleted "

So lets end the war, not feed it more bodies.

[berni_mccoy]

11. I made that the first requirement, but even doing so, we'll still need

more forces to replace what we've already lost.

[smoogatz]

9. It's also called being black or latino.

Poverty affects blacks and latinos disproportionately in this country, so you'd have to make race a factor in your new draft. Minorities should only be considered for the draft after all suitable white candidates have been depleted.

[xultar]

13. DING DING DING!

[Kelly Rupert]

23. That's stupid.

Economics make more of a difference than race. A wealthy black family should get off easy because there are poor people with dark skin? A poor white family should be penalized because other light-skinned people have money? That is a ridiculous assertion.

[smoogatz]

24. Blacks and latinos are over-represented in the military

compared to whites. They are much more likely to be poor than whites. If we're talking social justice, it's impossible to do that without taking race into account. Why is that hard to understand?

[Gormy Cuss]

36. Actually, only African-Americans are over represented.

Latino enlistments have been increasing rapidly however. African-American enrollments have been trending downward. IIRC disproportionately high representation occurs only in the Army (I don't have a link, but I read this recently in a report using 2002 DOD statistics.)

Within the Army, all minorities comprise 39.2% of active duty soldiers, 26% of the National Guard, and 40.9% of reserve members. From the attached FY2005 Army report it's clear that African-Americans serve at a rate much higher than their proportion in the population.

http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/demographics/FY05%20Army%20Profile.pdf

[smoogatz]

41. Thanks

I stand corrected.

[Captain Hilts]

39. Not in the case of Hispanics. And blacks are not signing up for infantry. They're in...

support fields. So, they're under-represented in the combat divisions.

The opposite was the case in Vietnam.

[Kelly Rupert]

44. If your problem is that poor people are getting forced into the military,

look at poverty and its causes. The only logically solid reason to bring race into account is if you assume that race (distinct from racism, mind you) is in and of itself a cause of poverty--that is, that there is something innate in blacks or hispanics that makes them poor. So let's talk social justice, yes.

I am good friends with two people. One is white and one is black--I have more friends, but I'm using these people in particular. One is from Evanston, IL, a suburb on the affluent North Side. The other is from South Holland, IL, a racially-mixed suburb on the poor South Side. One went to an expensive college-prep private high school. One went to a public high school that was 96% black and that was so poorly-funded it had to share sports teams with two neighboring schools. Our rich student is from an African-American family. Our poor student is from a Caucasian one.

Which of these students is more likely to join the army? If your problem is that poor people are more likely to enlist, then fight for justice for the poor. If your problem is that black people are more likely to be poor, then fight to lift black communities out of poverty. But limiting yourself to the notion that "Blacks are Poor and Whites are Rich" is not only racist, it hurts the cause of social justice by overlooking those that don't fit the stereotype.

[smoogatz]

46. None of which has a thing in the world to do with anything

I said. But whatever.

[Kelly Rupert]

47. Sure it does.

Because you claimed that race should be considered in opposition to my claim that only economic condition should.

[smoogatz]

52. Right--

because blacks are both disproportionately poor and over-represented in the military, which are obviously linked circumstances (i.e., blacks are over represented BECAUSE they're more likely to be poor). And then you went off about some completely irrelevant story about one black person you knew who wasn't poor, as if that had anything to do with anything. It doesn't. Your argument is silly, anyway, because the whole discussion is based in pure speculation. A draft is highly unlikely, and if it happened it would be universal.

[Kelly Rupert]

57. Apparently reading comprehension isn't your bag.

Here, let's cut out the illustration, because apparently that confused you.

Now, go back to my post. The only logically solid reason to bring race into account is if you assume that race (distinct from racism, mind you) is in and of itself a cause of poverty--that is, that there is something innate in blacks or hispanics that makes them poor.

Now, let's try again. Let's strip our arguments down.

Your argument is:

1. Black people are more likely to be poor.
2. Poor people are more likely to join the army.
3. Therefore, black people are more likely to join the army.
4. That is unfair to poor black people.
5. Therefore, we should draft white people to even things out.

My argument is:

1. Poor people are more likely to join the army.
2. That is unfair to all poor people.
3. You are concerned only with the unfairness towards poor black people.
4. Therefore you have suggested drafting white people.
5. Since poor whites are already at risk, this is doubly unfair to poor whites.

[smoogatz]

60. Apparently the reading comprehension issue is contagious.

What I said initially was that we should draft blacks only when the supply of qualified whites was depleted. What's implied that you evidently missed (or chose to miss) is that racism is the primary reason poverty affects blacks disproportionately; therefore the equitable solution to the draft issue--the complexity of which is compounded by the race issue--would be to tilt the burden of the draft toward whites, since until now the burden has fallen unfairly on blacks, because of economic racism. And really, implying that I don't "get" your argument is juvenile and unnecessary. I understand it, I just think it's wrong.

[TahitiNut]

25. You mean like ...

:cry: :cry:

... but why shouldn't a "democracy" make her carry the burden? After all, she must've been a war criminal, right?
:grr:

[smoogatz]

26. What a beautiful young woman.

God, it's freaking tragic.

[TahitiNut]

31. I can't even begin to express how her death has affected me.

Over three thousand deaths in Iraq/Afghanistan and hers just cuts me deep.

I remember being her age and I remember how I felt entering the U.S. Coast Guard Academy as a cadet.

I'm not black.
I'm not Hispanic.
I'm not female.
But I feel tied to her in ways I can't express.
I can't count the times I've teared up thinking about her.
In a very real sense, I would rather it'd been me that died there.
I just can't see that feeling as 'wrong' ... no matter what the cowards who reject the notion of shared risks say.

[Captain Hilts]

40. The WashP reported her death and another of a solider on his 3rd tour the same day. Sad. nt

[wicket]

49. What was her name?

Thanks.

[TahitiNut]

67. Emily Perez

2nd Lt. Emily J.T. Perez

1983: Born in Heidelberg, Germany. Father and grandfather both served in the U.S. Army.

1998: Moved with family to Fort Washington. While a high school student, pushed for an HIV-AIDS ministry at Peace Baptist Church in the District and was honored as an AIDS educator by the American Red Cross.

2001: Graduated from Oxon Hill High School. Enrolled in the U.S. Military Academy at West Point Ran track and sang in the gospel choir. Was the first minority female command sergeant in West Point history.

2005: Graduated from West Point in the top 10 percent of her class. Was assigned to the 204th Support Battalion, 2nd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division. Deployed to Iraq in December as a Medical Service Corps officer.

Sept. 12, 2006: Killed in Kifl by an improvised explosive device, the first female West Point graduate to die in Iraq.

[wicket]

68. Thank-you

My god, how sad :(

[TahitiNut]

76. Unrequited love is tragic ...

... but, somehow, the unrequited love of an entire nation is so overwhelming that the word 'tragic' is mere dust on a breeze in comparison. She demonstrated an ideal ... a love for people that is mind-numbing in retrospect. The third generation in a family that could obviously live as 'victims' and instead chose service and sacrifice. As a young person, she could have chosen to regard people with AIDS as lepers beneath contempt and shunned them in favor of rock stars and rap artist and instead chose to organize an outreach. Even within her choice to serve, she served within the service - the Medical Service Corps.

But some would regard her as naive ... a tool ... a war criminal ... or worse. Some would regard her as such ... if only to salve their own refusal to share her burden. Cheap enough to merely protest self-righteously and pay taxes for Emily's education, salary, ... and funeral.

Maybe she's emblematic for me because I just don't have the capacity to get my head and heart around the thousands of others as well.

Nobody detests this illegal war more than me. Nobody. Nobody wants to see The Bush/Cheney regime in prison more than me. Nobody. But I cannot use that to salve my conscience and say "better them than me" and sneer at a draft that would put everyone's skin in the game. We should be taking Emily's six ... but we're not.

[Megahurtz]

92. Uuuhhhh......NOT!

So you trying to minimize the plight of White People who are poor? Sorry, that stinks!



I call TOTAL BULLSHIT!:argh:

[shadowknows69]

12. Or we just stop loss active soldiers

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2758707>

[havocmom]

15. Yes that is a back door draft

and blatantly unjust

[bowens43]

14. Complete bullshit. Don't give me this economic draft crap.

Bottom line is that there is NO draft and anyone in the military is there because they chose to be. No one has to chose the military. Everyone has access to education and the tools they need to get out of their situation.

KEEP YOUR FUCKING HANDS OFF OF MY KIDS. KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF OF EVERYONE"S KIDS.

You have to be a couple of bricks shy of a load to believe that a draft would put an end to war mongering. Just the opposite is true. More soldiers mean more theaters of war are possible. My guess is that the vast majority of those who hold this ridiculously naive opinion have nothing to lose. Why don't you join up? You sure seem happy to send other peoples children off to kill and die for bush. Why aren't you there?

I have never seen a more stupid idea in my life. The draft isn't going to happen.

If it did, it would spell the end , not of war, but of the Democratic party and rightfully so.

Now get you ass down to the recruiting station , get yourself a fucking gun and go to Iraq and slaughter you some civilians.

[havocmom]

16. When people IN the military have served their tour of duty and are denied discharge

that IS a draft. They are seving beyond what they volunteered for. They HAVE BEEN drafted for the next tours of duty.

Poor and without any future: drafted by default.

[endarkenment]

17. thank you. nt.

[Horse with no Name]

20. That isn't true

Many soldiers joined up under saner Presidents who didn't use our soldiers as throw-aways.

[smoogatz]

21. Just curious--

what's your ethnicity? And what's your economic class?

[TahitiNut]

28. Passion and certitude has never been a substitute for reason and ethics.

... and possibly never less so than in such a post. :puke:

It's the ol' "Fuck You! I Got Mine!" ... the total opposite of JFK's "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."



She died for the sins of her nation?

[berni_mccoy]

33. Thank you.

I could not have said it any better myself.

[lapfog_1]

34. Sounds like a draft would really piss you off...

And likely your draft age children too.

Enough that you might even think about taking time off to hit the streets and demonstrate against the war.

Probably a lot of other people just like you would do the same. Even some Republicans.

Might even be enough that our elected representatives, while still "supporting the troops", might decide to pull the plug on a very unpopular war. Because of people like you. And a few million others.

Might even make these same representatives think long and hard about the next war.

You probably want to appeal to people's better nature. Rangle is going for a lower brain stem function. Primal fear is a very powerful influence on the actions that a person takes.

The anti-draft folks here act like they can't do anything to stop the war so all starting a draft does is provide bodies to fight the war...

In our current social contract that is the United States, we have this current divorce of thinking... the anti-war people keep saying "Hey, republicans, if you want this war so bad, why don't YOU fight it"... and the pro-war people say "war is a necessary instrument of foreign policy, and the troops volunteered to put themselves at risk, they knew what was possible, so I don't have a problem if the volunteers get killed". We must remove BOTH rationalizations!

So they take our tax money to hire kids, many of them who don't see other opportunities, and go fight their wars without weekly or daily demonstrations or real passion from people who only contribute tax revenue. Oh, the "peaceniks" exist... Cindy is out there doing something every day... but it's only a handful... and handfuls (even thousands) can be labeled as cranks. Fix the social contract so that everyone has to sacrifice, everyone has a loved on in harms way, and it's not just blood money that we contribute with our taxes, blood money that we can say to ourselves "Well, I HAVE to pay taxes, and I just can't affect how they spend it".

Don't be fooled people. It's our money that pays for this war. It's our president (even if we all hate him) that started it. It is up to US to fix it. The only way is to really scare the representatives with their jobs, and the only thing that will do that is daily or weekly massive demonstrations... and the only thing that will make us take time away from our busy lives is primal fear.

Something that will turn us all into Cindy Sheehan.

Something that will put more than our blood money taxes into a very unpopular war.

Bring back the draft.

Oh, my "bona fides"... I currently have a niece serving in the Navy. She is in the Persian Gulf right now. My brother died in Vietnam when I was sixteen. The draft "ended" (and the war) when I was seventeen. I was not high on the list (selective service was a random thing) so I might not have been drafted either. However, I had already applied and been accepted to the Navy academy and had been planning a career in the military (my dad was career Navy). After my brother was killed, my Mom ended my dreams of military service.
I answered the knock on the door from the two officers in dress whites.

[TahitiNut]

45. Well said. Especially about rationalizations.

One of my favorite lines from 'The Big Chill' ...

Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.
Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

:rofl:

On DU, we can go several threads without talking sex ... but we can't go more than one or two without some huge rationalizations.

[Goblinmonger]

50. Oh, yeah, so many of the poor in the military

had SO MANY options ahead for them. Well, gee, Jim, should I continue to live in squalor here on the family farm, go on up to Harvard to get an MBA, or join the military. Oh, wait, I don't have any money for college, so I guess it's the military life for me.

Lots of choices out there for so many of them.

[demnan]

18. Or we could avoid it altogether

by not having imperialistic wars

[JVS]

19. Good idea

[TahitiNut]

29. How's that working for you?

In the meantime ... what? Hide? Sneer?

:eyes:

[Cleita]

22. You know, most countries have an obligation for military duty for

their young men and often young women as well, like in Israel. The term averages two years. I think though that the conscript should have the right to refuse to deploy to a war they feel is unjust. It would be up to the pro-war Congress and anti-war Congress to make their case for any war.

I don't think anyone would have fallen for the invasion of Iraq if they were given the facts or lack of them from both sides. We here at DU didn't fall for the flimsy evidence once the facts were in, so why wouldn't they be able to make this decision? This is what the ancient chieftains did. They had to make their case so that their warriors followed them. If they couldn't get their countrymen to drop their plow and take up the sword, they had to raise a slave army, very expensive. Rent a copy of Alexander and see how he has to keep rallying his troops to push further and further into the known world for conquest when they don't want to fight anymore and go home.

Look at what would have happened if this were the case after 9/11. Most would have been happy to go to Afghanistan to get Osama. Many, who might have already done their service would have re-upped for that purpose. We saw that in WWII when the recruiters could barely keep up with enlisting young men and not so young men who wanted to fight in WWII.

However, there would have been no Korea and no Vietnam in that case. Yet, if Russia or China had ever attacked us during the cold war, everyone would have been ready to go to war, except the most diehard pacifists. We as citizens, I believe, all have a duty to protect our country from attack, but we also have a right to determine if the war is in fact a just war or just a game of geo-politics played around a conference table for power and gain at the expense of our young people.

In the meantime until a legitimate reason for war happens, we need to have a standing military of trained soldiers in case the occassion rises to go to war. But again I believe the recruit has the right to refuse to go to war unless the case is made that it's a war to protect our country.

[endarkenment]

27. Do you have any proof for that assertion?

A quick check in wikipedia indicates that about 22 nations have military conscription. That would imply that around 100 nations do not. By the standard definition of 'most', this would appear to contradict your assertion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#Countries_that_don.27t_have.2C_or_abolished.2C_mandatory_military_service

[Cleita]

30. Picky picky. I'm not writing an article so I chose the wrong words.

I should have said many industrial countries. Most people who read this probably know what I meant, but since you want to do sticky, lets try this. How do you know that those other hundred countries don't have a casual militia that their warlords can call in times of strife or a domestic police force that can quickly be converted into a military?

No where in the world is there a nation or a tribe that doesn't have a warrior class or ordinary members who are also trained in warfare. It's a quick road to extinction not to do so.

[endarkenment]

35. I give up, words have no meaning for you. nt.

[Cleita]

42. You know, I wrote a post with ideas that are being kicked around

about what military duty and obligations should be for the average citizen. These are ideas that are discussed among people other than me. Yet, you decide to start an argument about the opening sentence, which I used as a device to introduce the entire idea about this, and whose relevance to the entire post is very minute.

Sorry I'm human, and made a little mistake in your eyes, and in the interest of brevity, to avoid having to write a politically correct tome before I got to the main ideas in my post. However, accusing me of words not being important to me is really insulting. I hope you don't walk around town with this attitude. Many people don't have English as a first language and may make mistakes in use of words nor are they as trained in writing skills as English majors.

Try to cut a little slack for these abnormalities in word usage or you may find that no one wants to be in your company.

[KharmaTrain]

77. Logic, Reason & Compassion Be Damned

I really appreciate what you're saying and have taken some hits on my own from either are in flame mode or feel sanctimonious and need to put you down to build themselves up.

Sadly, people switch to playing with strawmen, asking "beating your wife" questions, playing grammar cop or find some little picadillo rather than do what the name of this forum imples: Discussion.

Tolerance seems to be in short supply around here these days...and I suspect many who are eager to confront or push an agenda rather than discuss will become very frustrated, if they're not already.

Keep up the good fight and cheers to you

:toast:

[Cleita]

78. Thanks. I apprciate the support

for an unfair attack.

:hi:

[treestar]

32. A good idea

I generally think there should be no draft on the ground that people will not go to war unless our freedom really is threatened for real if it is up to the individual whether or not he/she will serve in one.

Then in practice that may not work so well, as it may be easy to convince large groups of youth that our freedom is threatened when it is not.

But whoever is going to profit from the war should have the highest numbers, though that may be only fair if applied to themselves, because their children may have their own views and it wouldn't be fair to apply the parents views to their offspring.

[JacksonWest]

43. Call me old fashioned,

But I think we should only fight wars where we know who the enemy is, they are indeed an enemy, and we can go home after we kill them. Or they surrender. Now, our soldiers our signing up to stand around and let any yahoo take a potshot at them. This isn't a war in Iraq. It's an extension of policy, at best. Our soldiers our trained to fight. There is no fight over there. It's just a hellhole where everyone waits to die.

[Captain Hilts]

38. It's an economic draft. The govt. cut back on college aid in late 60s for this reason. nt

[Hosnon]

48. There is a big difference between these two types of drafts. nt

[Kelly Rupert]

51. You use the word "choose" repeatedly. The cards may be stacked towards

the military, but it ain't a draft.

[berni_mccoy]

53. Choice between poverty and not poverty. Which would you "choose"?

[Kelly Rupert]

58. Right. Choose.

Many impoverished people--those who do not want the life of a soldier--choose to not join the army. That is the difference between this and a draft.

[TahitiNut]

85. Ahhh... another advocate of Sophie's Choice.

Fascinating.

[smoogatz]

63. And for your last meal

you can have cheeseburgers or fried chicken. Some choice.

[JVS]

93. Not getting killed

[smoogatz]

55. Right. You can take the $40K bonus and the college tuition

or you can end up in prison like half of your friends. But, you know, it's a choice.

[Kelly Rupert]

59. Apparently the population of rural America is

either soldiers or felons. Incisive.

[smoogatz]

61. I was still talking about blacks

who are imprisoned at a disproportionate rate. But you knew that. In what's left of rural America, the choice is between $40k plus college, and Wal Mart. Infinitely better, as you say.

[KamaAina]

54. Freudian post o' the month!

The only thing is, we have MANY MANY MOORE POOR NOW. And they are being faced with the decision to take on multiple minimum wage jobs with no benefits and health-care such as Walmart or Starbucks or join the military.

Think back to the recruitment scene at the shopping center in Flint, in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11". :-)

[berni_mccoy]

56. Woops, that definitely wasn't intentional, but I was certainly thinking of that scene

Good catch!

[NNN0LHI]

62. OK than give us one example of a wealthy person being drafted when we had one

If you can't name one it blows your theory all to hell.

Don

[berni_mccoy]

65. I don't understand your question

I'm saying the poor are already in essence being drafted because their alternatives to going into the military are to live in poverty.

Are you saying that is not true?

[NNN0LHI]

66. I am saying the poor will be the ones who get taken in any draft

The wealthy never get drafted. Not during our Civil War, two World Wars, and numerous police actions.

To suggest that some new draft would be any different is foolish and dangerous.

Don

[berni_mccoy]

69. Elvis. Wealthy Person Drafted.

[smoogatz]

71. Also Muhammed Ali.

But he refused to go.

[NNN0LHI]

72. Elvis was not drafted to serve in any war

Elvis was stationed in Germany to play stink finger with young German girls.

I bet you knew already that though.

Don

[berni_mccoy]

79. You said name ONE WEALTHY PERSON who was drafted. I did.

But since you insist on not believing it, here's a bunch:

The World War I Registrants:

* Dean Acheson NEW
* Arthur Andersen
* Sherwood Anderson
* Fatty (Roscoe) Arbuckle
* Louis Armstrong NEW
* Fred Astaire
* John Barrymore
* Jack Benny
* Ezra Taft Benson NEW
* Irving Berlin
* George Burns
* Edgar Rice Burroughs
* Jimmy Cagney
* Al Capone
* Lon Chaney
* Ty Cobb
* George M. Cohan
* Adolph Coors
* e e cummings
* Cecil DeMille
* Jack Dempsey
* Du Pont NEW
* T S Eliot
* Duke Ellington
* Max Factor
* Douglas Fairbanks
* Robert Frost
* George Gershwin
* Ira Gershwin
* J. Paul Getty
* Oscar Hammerstein
* Oliver Hardy
* Gabby Hayes
* Conrad Hilton
* Harry Houdini NEW
* Shoeless Joe Jackson NEW
* Emmett Kelly NEW
* Jerome Kern
* Joseph P. Kennedy
* Jerome Kern
* Frederick A. Kerry--grandfather of John Kerry
* Alfred Kinsey
* Fiorello La Guardia
* Sinclair Lewis
* Huey Long NEW
* Chico Marx
* Groucho Marx
* Louis Mayer
* H. L. Mencken
* Tom Mix
* Norman Vincent Peale
* Cole Porter
* John D. Rockefeller Jr.
* Norman Rockwell
* Will Rogers
* Sigmund Romberg
* Carl Sandburg
* David Sarnoff
* Casey Stengel
* Babe Ruth
* Charles Walgreen
* E B White
* Walter Winchell NEW
* Grant Wood
* N C Wyeth

And there are plenty here too:

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

[NNN0LHI]

84. Couldn't find that list at the link you provided

I wanted to see just how many of them folks were wealthy at the time they were drafted?

I bet not many if any were wealthy at the time.

Don

[berni_mccoy]

88. You aren't serious are you? You're really starting to reach on this issue

Here's the link with the list: http://www.rootdig.com/wwi/

Many of these people most certainly were wealthy/famous by the time they were drafted.

The Draft in WWI and WWII were pretty much universal. Everybody served.

[NNN0LHI]

94. No I think you are the one reaching here

First you use Elvis who wasn't even required to live on base due to his wealth as proof everyone gets treated equally which you knew was a lie before I pointed it out to you. The poor guy goes off to die like a dog. Rich guy gets to go off to chase women at our expense. How fair is that? And Elvis would have never been drafted during a time of war under any circumstances.

Then you provide a list of people who registered for the draft while we were discussing wealthy people who had been drafted. Two separate things.

Your list includes Babe Ruth. On what date was he drafted?

Same list has "wealthy" paper cutter Al Capone included on to. When was he drafted?

Were any of the people who are on your list actually ever drafted? That is what we were talking about here.

Don

[berni_mccoy]

95. Ty Cobb. Now Stop Already. I don't disagree with you that the system has become one abused by the

wealthy. What I'm saying is, LET'S FIX IT so EVERYONE IS EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE.

Of course, FIRST, is to Withdraw from Iraq. A military solution is not the answer there.

SECOND. Let's make it so EVERYONE has to serve, regardless of status or economics. Democrats are in power now and have the ability to change the system. They should.

[smoogatz]

73. You're wrong.

The draft in WWII was as nearly universal as it's ever been, anywhere. The rich were in no way exempted. My father was from a reasonably well-to-do family, and all of his private-school buddies served, even though many of them were very rich. His lieutenant was the son of a U.S. Senator, and their unit was in bloody combat numerous times, and took heavy casualties. I know less about WWI and Korea, but in WWII, damn near everybody who was able to serve, served.

[NNN0LHI]

74. And I know plenty of guys with money who got deferments during WW II

One very good friend of mine received a deferment to supervise the workers at his mothers orange grove in California.

Others had different excuses.

Don

[The Count]

64. And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon. A perfect law?

When was the last time ANYONE got from Congress the perfect bill?
It will be amended and compromised until it applies to the poor only. And if it passes, Democrats will be reviled. For generations.
Human lives are not for playing politics.
It's the first reason I hate wars in the first place. What about the rest of DU? What about war you find objectionable?
Just that the bad guys get rich?

[northernsoul]

70. What previous wars were prevented by the draft?

For everybody here who is convinced that a draft is the cure-all for all neoconservative foreign adventurism - can any of you point to a historical example of a war that was prevented by the draft?

[berni_mccoy]

80. You can't argue hypotheticals, so your question is invalid

We probably don't even know about half the "near" wars that could have happened but were prevented because of the negative politicals that would result from conscription.

I can tell you this though: We didn't go into Baghdad in Gulf War I because it required more troops than we had. And we didn't get directly involved in the Iran/Iraq War in the 80s because of troop requirements as well. Both times we were involved in other ways though.

And if this administration had actually listened to General Shinsheki, they would have had to created a draft to meet the necessary troop levels (500K+ boots on the ground). But they didn't WANT a draft and this is the mess we ended up with as a result.

[northernsoul]

82. Ok, but wars have occurred with conscription in place, right?

It's fair to say that conscription's batting average as a war-preventer is somewhere south of 1.000. It certainly didn't prevent the Vietnam fiasco. WWI was fought almost entirely with conscripted armies, to the tune to 8 million dead. I think it's naive to believe that any putative political backlash from a draft would have prevented the PNAC gang from getting us into the Iraq quagmire.

[berni_mccoy]

89. "somwhere south of 1.000" -- NOW THAT'S A CERTAINTY

Any guess or probability is "somewhere south of 1.000" otherwise it is a certainty. And I rarely talk in those terms.

There was no draft in place for Vietnam. And there was no draft in place for WWII, we were dragged into that war and only AFTER Pearl Harbor was a draft instituted. If the U.S. had a permanent conscription policy in place, one that wealth or status could not get you out of, I gaurantee we would be talking far less War and more Peace in this country. NOW THAT'S A CERTAINTY.

[raccoon]

99. "There was no draft in place for Vietnam. "--how's that again?

The United States has employed conscription (mandatory military service, also called "the draft") several times, usually during war but also during the nominal peace of the Cold War.

<snip>
The wartime draft (after WWII) was extended by Congress, but it expired in 1947. In 1948 the draft was re-instated. It was expanded by the Universal Military Training and Service Act in 1951, in response to the manpower needs caused by the Korean War.

In the first and only instance of U.S. conscription during a major peacetime period, the draft continued on a more limited basis during the late 1950's and early 1960's


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

[Xenotime]

81. Those who are "upper class" are promoted quicker to officer status.

[ikojo]

86. Amen...it's an ECONOMIC DRAFT...

Folks with few prospects will join the military with the hope of learning a trade that can be used outside the military.

[PirateJoe]

87. somehow..

i think there's a difference between being forced to go join the military, and joining because thats "the only way" for them to make a living. if you really didn't want to go to war, i'm sure you'd find some other way to support yourself.

not to mention, as is already on the front page of GD, that 75% of enlistees are white middle class.

[berni_mccoy]

90. That "report" is COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT.

This is the "report" http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/em987.cfm

And they are taking the AVERAGE INCOME FOR THE ZIPCODE That the enlistee's COME FROM, NOT THE ENLISTEE'S FAMILY INCOME.

[raccoon]

100. Yes, you could always rob banks or sell drugs. :sarcasm: nt

[Megahurtz]

91. Uhhhhhhh....

You forgot mentally disabled.

:hi: Like people with PTSD and other mental disabities. Those are disabilities too!

Sheesh.
Anyway, I say that all wealthy G.O.P.ers should go, starting oldest to youngest ROFL!:rofl::sarcasm:

[personman]

96. Sounds like a doctor shooting his patient to cure the illness.

This is so backwards I feel like my head is going to explode.

At least the poor people who enlist now are generally supportive of the war. Now you're proposing sending over the poor people who DON'T support the war, or criminalizing them, that's all it is. As if they weren't betrayed enough that their government has robbed them and committed atrocities in their name, now you want to send them over there to participate or jail them.

I proposing drafting the draft and war supporters and leaving us sane people the fuck out of it.

-personman

[Jay Sherman]

102. I'd go farther and say that military service should be mandatory for everyone.

This because otherwise we have this huge problem where the military is disproportionately full of rightwingers. You could eventually end up with a situation where the country wants to take a very different direction than the military wants. And all the power is concentrated in the military...